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post #361 of 690 Old 01-12-2017, 12:15 PM
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Anyone get the impression that Honda is playing catch up? A little surprising that the 10 speed will make its debut on the Odyssey. IMO, it should have been on the the all new 17 MDX. It just shows how irrelevant Acura is today.

I doubt your reasoning. I think it's more a matter of timing and availability for production.

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post #362 of 690 Old 01-12-2017, 12:56 PM Thread Starter
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WHAT?!?!

Nice on paper but are you going to set up automatic recurring repair appointments with the service department or just wing it during its 24 month life span?

Rather surprised to read this from you....

("Hope" is not a maintenance plan!)
I guess you know more about the Gen than I do. I've not come across any negatives but I've also not looked. Any details on why it's so bad. I get it with an A8 or Range Rover. I wasn't aware that the Gen was awful like those are.

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I'm surprised to hear you'd consider getting into another 4-cyl, and a CVT no less.
I like the AWD and before I make the leap, I'm going to do an overnight test drive. I like the way it drives (better than the Accord) but test drives can be deceptive. I've not ruled everything out yet.


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post #363 of 690 Old 01-12-2017, 01:47 PM
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I doubt your reasoning. I think it's more a matter of timing and availability for production.
Possible but I wouldn't touch that 9 speed, it's had a terrible reputation in the Pilot . Even if it was on an Accord V6. Seems quite silly to make the 9 speed standard and the 10 speed in the upper trims. Honda does some real stupid crap. In the Ridgeline, the Canadians do not get an outside temperature gauge except for top of the line. In the US you get it in all but the lowest.

I haven't seen Acura do anything since the DCT. Now would have been a good time for them to do something.

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post #364 of 690 Old 01-12-2017, 02:03 PM
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Possible but I wouldn't touch that 9 speed, it's had a terrible reputation in the Pilot . Even if it was on an Accord V6. Seems quite silly to make the 9 speed standard and the 10 speed in the upper trims.
It's all about CAFE standards/EPA. Adding in more gears is a common trick for automotive manufacturers. I don't like automatic transmissions with a ridiculous number of gears because even a 5-speed auto tranny like my Accord's is already complicated. I have seen a video showing how automatic transmissions work, and a 6-speed auto already requires like 3~4 sets of planetary gears. 10-speed? Doable, but it will be a giant mess of gears.

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Honda does some real stupid crap. In the Ridgeline, the Canadians do not get an outside temperature gauge except for top of the line. In the US you get it in all but the lowest.
"Eh, Canadians don't need to know their outside temperature. It will always be cold anyways." - Someone at Honda Canada

Seriously, though, Canadian models get features American models don't get sometimes. I know with 8th Gens, have fun clearing your side mirrors on a cold day if you have an American LX. All Canadian trims have the side mirror heater as standard. Another thing we have is a washer fluid level warning light in the cluster, which American models lack; I guess that also has to do with Canada's climate but seems a little odd why Americans wouldn't need it. There is also weight difference and all that, which I don't know where that's comingg from.
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post #365 of 690 Old 01-12-2017, 03:20 PM
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No V6 for 2018 Accord. No word on CVT

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It's all about CAFE standards/EPA. Adding in more gears is a common trick for automotive manufacturers. I don't like automatic transmissions with a ridiculous number of gears because even a 5-speed auto tranny like my Accord's is already complicated. I have seen a video showing how automatic transmissions work, and a 6-speed auto already requires like 3~4 sets of planetary gears. 10-speed? Doable, but it will be a giant mess of gears.



"Eh, Canadians don't need to know their outside temperature. It will always be cold anyways." - Someone at Honda Canada

Seriously, though, Canadian models get features American models don't get sometimes. I know with 8th Gens, have fun clearing your side mirrors on a cold day if you have an American LX. All Canadian trims have the side mirror heater as standard. Another thing we have is a washer fluid level warning light in the cluster, which American models lack; I guess that also has to do with Canada's climate but seems a little odd why Americans wouldn't need it. There is also weight difference and all that, which I don't know where that's comingg from.

I agree on the gears. Adding more and more is good for tree hugger attorneys who are watching CAFE laws, and terrible for people who want to buy a car they love and keep it a long time. I hear the programming on the new Ford 10-speed, 8-speed, whatever the heck it is, leaves a lot to be desired. I just traded a '16 F-150 in on my Accord and they already have their hands full. That truck has become a nightmare. I've been driving Fords since age 16, which is 28 years ago. These ridiculous trannies are another nail in the coffin.

My wife has a '16 Murano Platinum, and damn that thing is smooth. I wondered about the CVT for years, but I'm sold on hers. If you want to putt around with passengers, smooth as silk. Want more? Punch it and it fake shifts like a real car. I really like it.

I'm OK with 6 gears, but not happy with more.
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post #366 of 690 Old 01-12-2017, 04:08 PM
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My wife has a '16 Murano Platinum, and damn that thing is smooth. I wondered about the CVT for years, but I'm sold on hers. If you want to putt around with passengers, smooth as silk. Want more? Punch it and it fake shifts like a real car. I really like it.

I'm OK with 6 gears, but not happy with more.
CVTs theoretically work well, but in real life, people seem to hate on them a lot. I really need to test drive one myself to see at some point.

As for the number of gears, I personally say 7 for automatics. If you look at luxury sports cars like Infiniti Q60 and BMW M4, both of them have 7 gears(the Q60 uses planetary auto, I believe, while the M4 uses dual clutch). I think both Infiniti(Nissan) and BMW have the technology to make more gears, but they didn't, probably for a good reason. It's kinda ridiculous that modern muscles have 8 gears for their auto options; it makes them hard to drive the semi-auto on them. Then again, if I opt for a muscle in the future, I will probably learn how to drive a manual first so I can drive a REAL muscle.

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post #367 of 690 Old 01-12-2017, 04:48 PM
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Possible but I wouldn't touch that 9 speed, it's had a terrible reputation in the Pilot . Even if it was on an Accord V6. Seems quite silly to make the 9 speed standard and the 10 speed in the upper trims. Honda does some real stupid crap. In the Ridgeline, the Canadians do not get an outside temperature gauge except for top of the line. In the US you get it in all but the lowest.

I haven't seen Acura do anything since the DCT. Now would have been a good time for them to do something.
Since I had the software update applied to my 2016 Elite Pilot during 12/15 I've experienced no problems with it's 9-speed AT.

IMO it feels smoother than the 6-speed AT for my 2016 Touring Accord.
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post #368 of 690 Old 01-12-2017, 05:50 PM
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Since I had the software update applied to my 2016 Elite Pilot during 12/15 I've experienced no problems with it's 9-speed AT.

IMO it feels smoother than the 6-speed AT for my 2016 Touring Accord.
It will feel smoother, naturally.

The issue is really the complexity and the engine-braking when you are going downhill. I am not sure how the interior of the 9-speed auto tranny looks like, but it ain't gonna be pretty. More parts can create problems, and if it breaks, you will probably have to pay for a new auto tranny. Engine braking downhill is harder because there are more gears you have to choose from. On my Accord, I select D3 down most hills and my car will hold a constant speed downhill without using my brakes, which is beneficial and safer because I don't suffer brake fading, and if I do have to actually stop for emergency, my brake lights will light up(rather than having them on constantly downhill) it will be easier for the person behind me to brake in time.

If luxury cars can get away with 7-speed autos, why can't other cars?

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post #369 of 690 Old 01-13-2017, 04:50 AM
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If I'm not mistaken, where manufacturers are adding turbos to their cars, they're reducing the engine displacement and maintaining the cylinder count. If Honda wanted to make a 2.8L v6 with a turbo, I'd be all for that. I'm not against progress. I just can't envision a reality where a turbo-four is any kind of replacement for a normally-aspirated-six, especially in the eyes of the average non-enthusiast consumer.
An economy class 4-cyl with a tiny turbo is NO kind of replacement for a normally aspirated 6-cyl. Honda is not going to give you a high-end 4-cyl engine with a large turbo and a first rate exhaust system and aggressive tuning. In any case, the added complexity will add to maintenance costs.

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... And of course, turbo lag. Unless you have a supercar where they have electric motors to eliminate that, it's gonna be there. One of my family friends has a Mercedes turbo diesel. The thing sounds so badass with the diesel noise, but my family friend said it also has an apparent turbo lag before it actually goes fast. Can be a little annoying.

If I have to pick between turbo I4 and N/A V6 with the same level of power/torque output, N/A V6 will be my choice.

I don't dislike turbos, really. It makes engines much more efficient. But I do see them as a way of "cheating". Like you said, no way it can replace an N/A V6.
I used to have fun racing Mercedes turbos and other luxury cars at the stop lights. By the time, their turbo would kick in, I would already be a 1-2 car lengths ahead. LOL.

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post #370 of 690 Old 01-13-2017, 05:38 AM
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I guess you know more about the Gen than I do. I've not come across any negatives but I've also not looked. Any details on why it's so bad. I get it with an A8 or Range Rover. I wasn't aware that the Gen was awful like those are.
Sorry, did not mean to slam without posting concrete evidence....

My understanding is that the Genesis, in general, does not wear-well and has a bad record as for number of problems. The re-sale on those is abysmal.

This new re-design and emphasis on power is interesting....it has bragging rights (420 hp) but 3 years from now will they be on dealer lots for 40% of initial cost?

Back on topic- I remember when Chrysler put turbos in every one of their 2.2 liter cars and some of their V6 Mitsubishi built-engines. This was before we learned about proper oil-cooling on turbos and turbo timers that kept the cooling process going for a few minutes AFTER you shut off your engine.

My Stealth Twin Turbo had boost mods, a turbo timer, additional cooling, etc....absolutely trouble-free 420 HP AWD machine in over 150,000 miles. 34 mpg at 60 mph with its 6 speed manual transmission, and 165 mph on the track (but was capable of 178 mph).

I can only imagine an aftermarket software company tweaking the stock Honda turbo to spool up sooner, hold boost a little longer, and run a cooling timer. Cheap way to boost HP- all with the press of a button.
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post #371 of 690 Old 01-13-2017, 06:57 AM
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The Toyota 2GR-FKS is one of the best V6's out on the market, period. I'm biased obviously, but it's predecessor 2gr-fse is amazing in my lexus. The next gen Camry is a home-run in every way, in my opinion. I love the fact that the V6 is going to go into the Camry, and it's sad that Honda won't be leaving the V6 in the next gen accord, as the current V6 is pretty great as well. I still feel that the Honda V6 is competetive in fuel economy numbers and power output, so why drop it, especially when they don't have a replacement for it? Keep dreaming if you think the Type-R 4Cyl turbo will get put into the accord. Current Honda simply would never go there and i'll happily eat my words if they do!


I understand the downsizing, but is honda going to put out a turbo 4 that's going to put out comparable numbers? Look at their current turbo offerings I highly doubt it.

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post #372 of 690 Old 01-13-2017, 08:14 AM Thread Starter
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Sorry, did not mean to slam without posting concrete evidence....

My understanding is that the Genesis, in general, does not wear-well and has a bad record as for number of problems. The re-sale on those is abysmal.

This new re-design and emphasis on power is interesting....it has bragging rights (420 hp) but 3 years from now will they be on dealer lots for 40% of initial cos
t?

Back on topic- I remember when Chrysler put turbos in every one of their 2.2 liter cars and some of their V6 Mitsubishi built-engines. This was before we learned about proper oil-cooling on turbos and turbo timers that kept the cooling process going for a few minutes AFTER you shut off your engine.

My Stealth Twin Turbo had boost mods, a turbo timer, additional cooling, etc....absolutely trouble-free 420 HP AWD machine in over 150,000 miles. 34 mpg at 60 mph with its 6 speed manual transmission, and 165 mph on the track (but was capable of 178 mph).

I can only imagine an aftermarket software company tweaking the stock Honda turbo to spool up sooner, hold boost a little longer, and run a cooling timer. Cheap way to boost HP- all with the press of a button.
{bold added} Indeed Genesis will tank in value which is why I would consider a 3 year old off lease under warranty for cheap the way I got my 750Li. I imagine it would drop about like a $66K Lincoln Continental (it did have a twin turbo AWD and 0-60 in 5.2 but that's a lot of coin for a Lincoln. A good buy off lease perhaps but the depreciation slope will still be very steep even after 3 years.

Stealth TT was a very under rated and under appreciated car and although not in the same class, the early '90s turbo AWD Eclipse was balls out fast and a hoot to drive.

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post #373 of 690 Old 01-13-2017, 08:53 AM
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Since I had the software update applied to my 2016 Elite Pilot during 12/15 I've experienced no problems with it's 9-speed AT.

IMO it feels smoother than the 6-speed AT for my 2016 Touring Accord.
My sister got a 17 MDX, I will have to drive it. Even her husband has no complaints, he loves it. Motor Trend has a long term test on a Pilot and the 9 speed was replaced and they hoped that the new one would have a better feel, nope. I have a Ridgeline now and the 6AT, DI V6 feels like a much better combination than that of the Accord. The Accord makes the better sounds (non DI) and is smoother but Ridgeline always feels like it is in the correct gear and you don't get the feeling like it's being held back by being in the highest possible gear all the time unless you get on it. VCM is completely undetectable, I suspect Honda did a better job with the VCM feel at the MMR because everyone says that the 16 on is even better than the 13-15. I've never had a Toyota but for the next purchase in 3 or 4 years they and Mazda will be the top candidates. Hopefully by then Honda will be more mainstream with the hybrids because I have absolutely no interest in a small displacement turbo 4 banger CVT. I really feel that Honda will be able to accomplish this with the hybrids. It will give the performance that folks like me demand and it will give the MPG's that the govt. mandates.

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post #374 of 690 Old 01-13-2017, 03:30 PM Thread Starter
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My sister got a 17 MDX, I will have to drive it. Even her husband has no complaints, he loves it. Motor Trend has a long term test on a Pilot and the 9 speed was replaced and they hoped that the new one would have a better feel, nope. I have a Ridgeline now and the 6AT, DI V6 feels like a much better combination than that of the Accord. The Accord makes the better sounds (non DI) and is smoother but Ridgeline always feels like it is in the correct gear and you don't get the feeling like it's being held back by being in the highest possible gear all the time unless you get on it. VCM is completely undetectable, I suspect Honda did a better job with the VCM feel at the MMR because everyone says that the 16 on is even better than the 13-15. I've never had a Toyota but for the next purchase in 3 or 4 years they and Mazda will be the top candidates. Hopefully by then Honda will be more mainstream with the hybrids because I have absolutely no interest in a small displacement turbo 4 banger CVT. I really feel that Honda will be able to accomplish this with the hybrids. It will give the performance that folks like me demand and it will give the MPG's that the govt. mandates.
My 15 MDX VCM is undetectable (until I check MPGs on the freeway and it's 30+).

I like Mazda but IIHS results in real world death rates are less than spectacular. Some examples below. The Mazda 6 was the worst of all midsized sedans.

The further below 100 the better, 9 were at 0 driver deaths for the period studied '09-11: Legacy, Odyssey, A4, Highlander, Sequoia, Rx350, Kia Sorrento 2wd, MB GL, XC90 all at 0, TSX 7, VW CC 8, Accord 19, Jetta 20, Fusion 32, Mazda six 54, Nissan Versa 130, Kia Rio 149

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post #375 of 690 Old 01-13-2017, 03:38 PM
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My 15 MDX VCM is undetectable (until I check MPGs on the freeway and it's 30+).

I like Mazda but IIHS results in real world death rates are less than spectacular. Some examples below. The Mazda 6 was the worst of all midsized sedans.

The further below 100 the better, 9 were at 0 driver deaths for the period studied '09-11: Legacy, Odyssey, A4, Highlander, Sequoia, Rx350, Kia Sorrento 2wd, MB GL, XC90 all at 0, TSX 7, VW CC 8, Accord 19, Jetta 20, Fusion 32, Mazda six 54, Nissan Versa 130, Kia Rio 149
I always learn something from you II Kings. I took your suggestion and stayed away from the Pre 16 Pilots because of safety. The next scheduled car replacement will be for the bride and until something better comes along I will finally have to stray away from CRV land and right now the first choice would be a Higlander for her.

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