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post #61 of 85 Old 02-04-2014, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Accord_Rules View Post
I think synthetic oil is just wonderful. I've decided to shift to Honda Genuine Synthetic from my next oil change as that oil will be specific for Honda Engines with the needed 'additive' package which Mobil1 cannot provide.
Ok, care to tell us what additive package the Honda synthetic has that the Mobil 1 does not? Please limit your response to API SN rated oil.

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post #62 of 85 Old 02-04-2014, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by cookieman214 View Post
Ok, care to tell us what additive package the Honda synthetic has that the Mobil 1 does not? Please limit your response to API SN rated oil.

Thanks.
I read about the results of virgin oil analyses of Toyota Genuine Synthetic Oil and Mobil1 Synthetic. TGSO has a very high Moly whereas Mobil1 has something like only 1/5ths that of TGSO. Does that make Mobil1 the worst oil? No. This just means that Toyota have their own additives in their oils specific for their engines. API SN rated oil doesn't mean that it has the additives for a specific engine manufacturer. It just means that they are good oils. Likewise, Honda knows more about their engines. I didn't see the virgin oil analysis of Honda Genuine Synthetic Oil. So, I couldn't answer your question. But by comparing TGSO with Mobil1, it is safe to assume that Honda's oil will be superior to Mobil1 for Honda engines.


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post #63 of 85 Old 02-04-2014, 09:26 PM
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HGMO is very similar to Motorcraft motor oil. Both are made by the same Conoco-Phillips.

That said, the HGMO isn't built to be the "be-all end-all" lubricant for Honda engines, it is manufactured by the oil contract winner (at this moment was COP, previously was XOM) to a certain service grade, at this time, API SN and GF-5, and approved for use by Honda as the OE lubricant. I would assume the additive package will, and has change(d) as suppliers change. Therefore, according to the aforementioned, the additive package in HGMO is, sure a good lubricant, but not the holy grail for a K24.

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post #64 of 85 Old 02-06-2014, 10:55 AM
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Yesterday, I had a lengthy discussion with my local dealership's parts salesman about HGMO vs Mobil1 and asked him to justify why should I spend $31.5 for 5qts of HGMO vs $25.17 for 5qts of Mobil1 we get at Walmart. He said that Mobil used to make Honda oils before. It seems Honda put in a lot of money again into R&D of oils. They came up with their new specifications and conveyed the same to Mobil. It seems Mobil refused to bend over backwards to make oils as per Honda's new specifications. It seems Conoco Philips agreed to make oils as per Honda's exact specifications. He said that while the generic Mobil1 that we get OTC is very good, the HGMO is indeed superior to the generic Mobil1 for Honda engines. I then bought 5qts of 5w-20 HGMO synthetic. Can't argue with the fact that OEM parts and fluids are the best for your car.

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post #65 of 85 Old 02-06-2014, 11:29 AM
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Likewise, Honda knows more about their engines. I didn't see the virgin oil analysis of Honda Genuine Synthetic Oil. So, I couldn't answer your question. But by comparing TGSO with Mobil1, it is safe to assume that Honda's oil will be superior to Mobil1 for Honda engines.
That is YOUR assumption with no proof whatsoever. In all honesty it would be impossible to prove one is superior to the other. If you want to pay more for something you think is better then.. Whatever floats your boat. Redline is even more expensive better try that one too.


Quote:
Yesterday, I had a lengthy discussion with my local dealership's parts salesman about HGMO vs Mobil1 and asked him to justify why should I spend $31.5 for 5qts of HGMO vs $25.17 for 5qts of Mobil1 we get at Walmart. He said that Mobil used to make Honda oils before. It seems Honda put in a lot of money again into R&D of oils. They came up with their new specifications and conveyed the same to Mobil. It seems Mobil refused to bend over backwards to make oils as per Honda's new specifications. It seems Conoco Philips agreed to make oils as per Honda's exact specifications. He said that while the generic Mobil1 that we get OTC is very good, the HGMO is indeed superior to the generic Mobil1 for Honda engines. I then bought 5qts of 5w-20 HGMO synthetic. Can't argue with the fact that OEM parts and fluids are the best for your car.
Let's see here.....the guy THAT IS PAID TO SELL OIL AND PARTS gave you a story and you fell for it. Exxon didn't refuse, Conoco won the contract dude!
OEM parts? Ok, I'll grant you that but HGMO being so much better than M1? That parts guy needs to move to the showroom and sell cars.....he's good.
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post #66 of 85 Old 02-06-2014, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Accord_Rules View Post
I read about the results of virgin oil analyses of Toyota Genuine Synthetic Oil and Mobil1 Synthetic. TGSO has a very high Moly whereas Mobil1 has something like only 1/5ths that of TGSO. . . . .
Just for the sake of accuracy, I believe the TGMO you are referring to is the SM TGMO. Toyota has changed it oil supplier several times, and (somewhat ironically) XOM is now TM's oil supplier. Additionally and more to the point, TM's SN oil has very little MoS2 now. In this regard, it's moly content is almost the same as M1. It's still a decent product of course, but for all practical purposes there's no real reason (IMHO, of course) to seek it out unless you are absolutely obsessed with ULV motor oil.
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post #67 of 85 Old 02-06-2014, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Accord_Rules View Post
Yesterday, I had a lengthy discussion with my local dealership's parts salesman about HGMO vs Mobil1 and asked him to justify why should I spend $31.5 for 5qts of HGMO vs $25.17 for 5qts of Mobil1 we get at Walmart. He said that Mobil used to make Honda oils before. It seems Honda put in a lot of money again into R&D of oils. They came up with their new specifications and conveyed the same to Mobil. It seems Mobil refused to bend over backwards to make oils as per Honda's new specifications. It seems Conoco Philips agreed to make oils as per Honda's exact specifications. He said that while the generic Mobil1 that we get OTC is very good, the HGMO is indeed superior to the generic Mobil1 for Honda engines. I then bought 5qts of 5w-20 HGMO synthetic. Can't argue with the fact that OEM parts and fluids are the best for your car.
If you hunt around you can probably still find the articles that appeared in the July and Sept 2010 issues of Jobbers World, an oil industry pub, that discussed the specific reasons that HMC decided to change oil suppliers. A fair reading of those articles indicates that Honda's decision had little to do with the chemical properties of COP's vs. XOM's oil products and everything to do with cost. Also at the time XOM didn't want to supply a less expensive semi-synthetic oil.

WRT the issue of which synthetic oil product is better, HGMO or M1, that always comes down to a matter of opinion. I've never been a real fan of COP's oil products. More specifically, FWIW, I think M1's additive package is superior and second only to Pennzoil's synthetics (Platinum and Ultra). More to the point, there may be some correlation between the oil consumption issues that have been discussed on this board (piston ring deposits) in the last few years and HMC's changed oil supplier, but I'll be the first to admit that's conjecture on my part.
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post #68 of 85 Old 02-06-2014, 02:47 PM
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Just for the sake of accuracy, I believe the TGMO you are referring to is the SM TGMO. Toyota has changed it oil supplier several times, and (somewhat ironically) XOM is now TM's oil supplier. Additionally and more to the point, TM's SN oil has very little MoS2 now. In this regard, it's moly content is almost the same as M1. It's still a decent product of course, but for all practical purposes there's no real reason (IMHO, of course) to seek it out unless you are absolutely obsessed with ULV motor oil.
Yes, the earlier TGMO had lot of Moly. TGMO now has lot of Titanium and Moly is cut down. If Toyota engineers thought this is better for their engines, I am nobody to contest it.

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post #69 of 85 Old 02-06-2014, 06:47 PM
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Yes, the earlier TGMO had lot of Moly. TGMO now has lot of Titanium and Moly is cut down. If Toyota engineers thought this is better for their engines, I am nobody to contest it.
This is from Bob is the Oil Guy website, VOA of Genuine Toyota 0W-20 synthetic oil SN API rated. Where did you get you Titanium info?

Toyota 0W-20 SN Virgin UOA

Iron 0.7
Nickel 0.0
Chromium 0.1
Titanium 0.2
Copper 0.0
Aluminum 1.5
Tin 0.7
Silicon 5.7
Potassium 0.0
Sodium 1.1
Boron 0.6
Barium 0.0
Calcium 2829
Magnesium 12
Molybdenum 124 Was 800 SM rated
Sodium 1.1
Phosphorus 906
Sulfur 3489
Zinc 910
Visc@40C 37.38
Visc@100C 8.54
VI 216
TBN 6.84

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post #70 of 85 Old 02-07-2014, 03:21 AM
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Here is a Virgin Oil Analysis of Mobil 1 0W-20 AFE Full synthetic.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=2243763

Highlights:

Moly 60
Boron 73
Calcium 844
Magnesium 629
Phos 543
Zinc 548
TBN 8.0

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Last edited by cookieman214; 02-07-2014 at 03:44 AM. Reason: sp.
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post #71 of 85 Old 02-07-2014, 03:29 AM
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Virgin Oil analysis Honda Ultimate Full Synthetic 0W-20 SN (COP)

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...he#Post2384379

Highlights:

Moly 58
Boron 186
Calcium 1693
Magnesium 6
Phos 581
Zinc 717
TBN 8.0

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post #72 of 85 Old 02-07-2014, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by cookieman214 View Post
This is from Bob is the Oil Guy website, VOA of Genuine Toyota 0W-20 synthetic oil SN API rated. Where did you get you Titanium info?

Toyota 0W-20 SN Virgin UOA

Iron 0.7
Nickel 0.0
Chromium 0.1
Titanium 0.2
Copper 0.0
Aluminum 1.5
Tin 0.7
Silicon 5.7
Potassium 0.0
Sodium 1.1
Boron 0.6
Barium 0.0
Calcium 2829
Magnesium 12
Molybdenum 124 Was 800 SM rated
Sodium 1.1
Phosphorus 906
Sulfur 3489
Zinc 910
Visc@40C 37.38
Visc@100C 8.54
VI 216
TBN 6.84
TGMO - Toyota Genuine Motor Oil 5w-30 (non-synthetic). From here.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/Janaury%20...lts/toyota.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTexasF View Post
That is YOUR assumption with no proof whatsoever. In all honesty it would be impossible to prove one is superior to the other. If you want to pay more for something you think is better then.. Whatever floats your boat. Redline is even more expensive better try that one too.
It's the maker of that engine who says one is superior to the other for their engines. Not me. I wouldn't attempt to prove which one is superior to the other. Rather, I want to learn which one will be better for my engines. AND, the question was never about the expensive the better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RTexasF
Let's see here.....the guy THAT IS PAID TO SELL OIL AND PARTS gave you a story and you fell for it. Exxon didn't refuse, Conoco won the contract dude!
OEM parts? Ok, I'll grant you that but HGMO being so much better than M1? That parts guy needs to move to the showroom and sell cars.....he's good.
There again, I never said HGMO is better than M1, as a generalized statement.

IMO, oil companies have only a sales interest in their oils. Likewise, Honda parts salesman has a 'sales interest' in their own oils. But Honda's interest goes beyond oil sales - Longevity of their engines is in their best interest. I'm not an expert to contest Honda engineers' claim that their oils are better for their engines' longevity. Thanks for granting me on the OEM parts issue. Let's see here.....OEM Coolants, AT Fluids, PS Fluids are manufacturer specific, as we all have been told by the manufacturers. May be that's a sales pitch too and most of us 'fell' for it. I do understand that when it comes to oils, there's lot of debate out there and which oil you prefer is a matter of your personal preference. I'm not comfortable with 'one size fits all' generic oils and would go with those engineers who say their oils are best for their engines.

Having said all this, I'm always eager to learn more, as I continue to read more and discuss more with fellow members.

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post #73 of 85 Old 02-07-2014, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Accord_Rules View Post
It's the maker of that engine who says one is superior to the other for their engines. Not me. I wouldn't attempt to prove which one is superior to the other. Rather, I want to learn which one will be better for my engines. AND, the question was never about the expensive the better.
I doubt it. Honda doesn't get their reccomendation or pick their supplier by testing all of the off the shelf oils. They find who can make an oil that meets current standards the cheapest, probably (probably) test it, and if it doesn't blow, then it looks like it'll become the OE oil.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Accord_Rules View Post
IMO, oil companies have only a sales interest in their oils. Likewise, Honda parts salesman has a 'sales interest' in their own oils. But Honda's interest goes beyond oil sales - Longevity of their engines is in their best interest.
Sorry, but no. They're in the business (and just so happen to have interests) in selling cars. They want to get you through the warranty period too. Sure, Honda builds good cars, good engines... but they aren't all sitting there spending money on R&D to make sure you can hit 400k on your K24.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Accord_Rules View Post
I'm not an expert to contest Honda engineers' claim that their oils are better for their engines' longevity. Thanks for granting me on the OEM parts issue. Let's see here.....OEM Coolants, AT Fluids, PS Fluids are manufacturer specific, as we all have been told by the manufacturers. May be that's a sales pitch too and most of us 'fell' for it. I do understand that when it comes to oils, there's lot of debate out there and which oil you prefer is a matter of your personal preference. I'm not comfortable with 'one size fits all' generic oils and would go with those engineers who say their oils are best for their engines.

Having said all this, I'm always eager to learn more, as I continue to read more and discuss more with fellow members.
I'm sure that you find ISLAC and API certifications, along with Dexos and Ford WSS-M2C 930-A certifications meaningless... because a lot of these "generic oils" (Mobil 1, QSUD, Pennzoil Platinum, etc.) have them. But they probably have no idea what they're talking about.

Sure, engineers may know a lot, but I'd rather take advice from the guys on the front lines here... the mechanics at the Honda dealerships (and there's some on here) who know these cars inside and out, with and without daily use and abuse, with and without miles. They IMO would be the best ones to say what oil is truly the best. I bet they will say that the oil from the shelf is just fine.

With all of this said, there is nothing wrong with any of the Honda oils, they are just fine, but the point here is that it's really nothing special when compared to off the shelf oils.

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post #74 of 85 Old 02-07-2014, 03:01 PM
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@redhat, when you compare the VOA of HGMO 0w-20 synthetic with M1 0w-20 synthetic, Boron and Calcium levels in HGMO are twice as much as in Mobil1 while Magnesium is 0.009th that of M1. I'm just wondering why would Honda engineers prefer their OEM oils to have such low levels of Magnesium if extremely high level of Magnesium is healthy for their engines? The same question begs to be asked for Boron as well as Calcium. I don't have answers. So, I trust the people who made those engines.

I never said the ratings don't mean anything to me. All the oils are certified for whatever ratings in their respective grades. So, I wouldn't worry about the similarities across the oils. Rather, I'm more interested in the differences between those oils, proportions of different metals in those oils and the different additives car manufacturers request from their oil suppliers. If you still want to ignore those differences, then that's your choice. I hope I'm clear now.

Or may be the importance of oil is just over-rated except for the break-in period. And so may be we are just fine as long as we change oil every 6000 miles .

Take home point so far for me, after going through the VOAs is that M1 and HGMO synthetic are vastly different in their metal contents. Such a significant reversal of ratios in metals doesn't sound like a sales pitch to me. If one of the purposes of VOAs is to find the metal contents of the oil, then it's hard to ignore those findings. When you order blood chemistry analysis on patients, there's no point in ignoring the levels of ions in the patient's blood report. In fact, ignoring those reports is criminal. I'm applying a similar yardstick here and I hope this line of thinking isn't flawed in case of oils. Mobil1 makes good oils though. I'm still learning about oils and will continue to do so.

Thanks to fellow members for posting those VOAs. I'm now even more comfortable while buying OEM oil with the knowledge that it indeed is a whole lot different from other excellent generic oils.

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Last edited by Accord_Rules; 02-07-2014 at 06:39 PM. Reason: For clarity
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post #75 of 85 Old 02-08-2014, 05:43 AM
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It's the maker of that (Honda) engine who says one is superior to the other for their engines. Not me. I wouldn't attempt to prove which one is superior to the other. Rather, I want to learn which one will be better for my engines. AND, the question was never about the expensive the better.

I am unable to find anything written by Honda that claims that Honda oil is superior to other oils. Do you have a link as to where I can find anything like that?


Recommended Engine Oil Page 501 2013 Accord Owners Manual

• Genuine Honda Motor Oil
• Premium-grade 0W-20 detergent oil with an API Certification Seal on the container.

Oil is a major contributor to your engine's performance and longevity. If you drive the vehicle with insufficient or deteriorated oil, the engine may fail or be damaged.
This seal indicates the oil is energy conserving and that it meets the American Petroleum Institute’s latest requirements.
Use a Genuine Honda Motor Oil or another commercial engine oil of suitable viscosity for the ambient temperature as shown.

■ Synthetic oil
You may also use synthetic motor oil if it is labeled with the API Certification Seal and is the specified viscosity grade.

I fail to make the connection that you have made that Honda oil is "better" than any other oil that meets their requirements.

All manufactures make similar claims in their respective Owners Manuals, i.e. use "Their" approved oil, replacement parts and fluids. They recommend it, not require it.

Are you inferring that if you exclusively use Honda branded oil that your engine will never, ever "wear' out, and will last forever?


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