4th Oil Analysis - Accord Sport @41K - Drive Accord Honda Forums
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post #1 of 37 Old 04-12-2017, 05:50 PM Thread Starter
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4th Oil Analysis - Accord Sport @41K

4th UOA back from Blackstone. No surprise (at least for me) that if you follow the MM (which for me is around 10K mile OCI), everything is fine.

At some point these UOA will become boring and pointless. But for now they serve up actual data to support my theory that you can actually follow the MM and your engine won't: blow up/seize/throw a rod/blow a gasket/grind itself into metal shards/spin a bearing/etc.

A couple of notes for context:
-
  • I follow the MM to a "T".
  • This was a B1 Service - I changed oil (oil had 10,120 miles) and filter (filter had 20,038 miles)
  • Changed at 5% - I know! I didn't go to 0%! Had a road trip the next week so decided to change early.
  • Note the comment from Blackstone that they think I could've pushed the filter further. It already had over 20K miles.
  • Also notice the lack of fuel dilution - there are theories from some on this forum that the DI engines dump excessive amounts of fuel into the crankcase, diluting the oil. Here's a data point that refutes that theory.

Here are the comments from the UOA:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackstone UOA Comments
We were just telling someone else that those oil life monitors tend to get more accurate as time goes by. It's almost like the car learns how you drive and adjusts accordingly. They all use different metrics to decide when to change the oil, and so far yours is doing fine. It might even be conservative. Insolubles are very low, so the oil filter could go longer (if you haven't changed it out yet). The oil is in great shape - all metals are in the average range and are properly balanced. No fuel turned up this time around. Looking really good! Nice Accord.
For the morbidly curious, here are links to my posts from the previous 3 UOA.

3rd Oil Analysis @31K miles

Oil Analysis (2nd) of '15 Sport 6MT

Oil Analysis of my '15 Sport 6MT

So just a few facts for those that want to counter theories based upon feelings/grandpa's tales/Quicky Lube 3K OCI sticker/etc.

Enjoy!

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post #2 of 37 Old 04-12-2017, 06:07 PM
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In this case, boring is exactly what you want. I like what they said about filtration. I used to run a filter in a Ford Modular engine through 3 times the mileage Ford recommends, following the Insoluables and other data. Never tried 4 times the mileage, which would have been 20,000 miles. Your 20,000 mile filter interval made it just fine.

I just unraveled the first filter on my 2016 Highlander. It's as clean as any filter I've ever opened. I'm amazed at how much better engines are than even just 20 years ago.

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post #3 of 37 Old 04-13-2017, 07:54 AM
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I was telling someone on the Ford Expedition forum that I planed on changing the oil filter every other oil change and they lost their minds. They couldn't believe I was gonna do that and the engine would immediately blow up if I don't change it every oil change. People don't understand that we are not dealing with 1980's technology anymore.

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post #4 of 37 Old 04-13-2017, 08:06 AM
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Have you considered the napa analysis kit? I believe their analysis is 15 or 18 bucks and includes TBN, TAN. Blackstone is a bit pricey, and their fuel dilution isn't accurate.

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post #5 of 37 Old 04-13-2017, 09:44 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salcuta View Post
Have you considered the napa analysis kit? I believe their analysis is 15 or 18 bucks and includes TBN, TAN. Blackstone is a bit pricey, and their fuel dilution isn't accurate.
Didn't know NAPA sold this service. Good to know.

I'm tempted to do a comparison. Send the next used oil to Blackstone, NAPA, others and compare what they say about the same used oil.

Or after 4 of these with zero drama, averaging around 10K on the oil and 20K on the filter, I can call this experiment complete and happily motor along knowing that I am properly caring for my engine by following the Honda recommended service interval. And by regularly checking the dipstick to monitor oil usage.
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post #6 of 37 Old 04-14-2017, 10:04 PM
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Another great analysis!

It irks me to read that people will still change oil every x thousands of miles regardless of the MM because it's better for the engine, or it makes them feel better. With Honda's recommendations and these analysis to back it up, it makes them look... (REMOVED BY MOD)
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Last edited by RickBlaine; 04-15-2017 at 07:04 PM. Reason: R-word
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post #7 of 37 Old 04-15-2017, 12:26 PM
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OP, as other have said, Blackstone's fuel dilution methodology seems to be fatally flawed. There are examples out there of identical sample being sent to Blackstone and a lab that uses gas chromotography to test fuel dilution where Blackstone says dilution is < .5% an SUV the GC lab says it's >5%.

Nonetheless, yours looks good on the surface. I would add one other variable: Accords with a manual tranmission seem to dilute less than those with a CVT. This may be caused by how manufacturers richen the mixture to avoid LSPI (low stepped pre ignition). As a manual is typically revved higher than the ultra-low rpm CVTs try to maintain it's probably a safe bet manuals spend less time in the LSPI zone and therefore less time with a richened mixture.

My CRV with a CVT dilutes like crazy according to a GC lab. Others do too. But, oddly enough, my wear metals are considerably lower on a ppm/thousand mile basis. Go figure.
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post #8 of 37 Old 04-15-2017, 01:15 PM
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LSPI (low SPEED pre ignition) would be more likely in a high load, low rpm situation which would actually favor a manual trans.... such as flooring it in 6th gear in a manual while only going 35mph. In the CVT it would downshift enough to where you wouldn't have that high load at that low of a speed/rpm.
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post #9 of 37 Old 04-15-2017, 01:20 PM Thread Starter
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I'll admit I had to google it. But from what I saw this problem is only being discussed for turbo charged, manual transmission vehicles.

And then there's @tfalcon's post above which makes sense to me. Seems like this problem wouldn't occur in a CVT car because it would never be in a high load/low RPM condition.
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post #10 of 37 Old 04-15-2017, 01:28 PM
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Yeah it's more common in turbo charged, manual transmission engines.

Also some fuel dilution will probably always exist in a direct injected engine, but more so in a turbo due to the higher cylinder pressures. Most of the fuel in the oil will burn off when it gets to operating temp anyway, that's why you want to make sure the car is fully warmed up before grabbing an oil sample.
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post #11 of 37 Old 04-15-2017, 01:32 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tfalcon View Post
Yeah it's more common in turbo charged, manual transmission engines.

Also some fuel dilution will probably always exist in a direct injected engine, but more so in a turbo due to the higher cylinder pressures. Most of the fuel in the oil will burn off when it gets to operating temp anyway, that's why you want to make sure the car is fully warmed up before grabbing an oil sample.
And there's yet another variable. Maybe my fuel dilution is low because I made sure I went on a 20 minute ride before doing my oil change and grabbing a sample. Maybe @Dans15's CRV was started from cold, moved into the garage, then shut down. And then he grabbed a sample. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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post #12 of 37 Old 04-15-2017, 02:45 PM
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And there's yet another variable. Maybe my fuel dilution is low because I made sure I went on a 20 minute ride before doing my oil change and grabbing a sample. Maybe @Dans15's CRV was started from cold, moved into the garage, then shut down. And then he grabbed a sample. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I wish that was the case. My samples were drawn immediately after a long (400 mile) Interstate run. And it's consistent: 5 out of 5 samples show significant dilution after as little as 2,000 miles, with the lowest reading being 4.4%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tfalcon View Post
Yeah it's more common in turbo charged, manual transmission engines.

Also some fuel dilution will probably always exist in a direct injected engine, but more so in a turbo due to the higher cylinder pressures. Most of the fuel in the oil will burn off when it gets to operating temp anyway, that's why you want to make sure the car is fully warmed up before grabbing an oil sample.
At typical fully warmed-up oil temperatures, maybe 1/2 of gasoline's lighter constituents will "boil-off". Some of the heavier components of gasoline won't do so until temperatures get close to 400F (i.e. essentially never). So once gasoline is introduced to the sump, half or more will remain for the rest of the OCI.

Last edited by RickBlaine; 04-15-2017 at 07:03 PM. Reason: multi-quote
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post #13 of 37 Old 04-15-2017, 05:28 PM
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At typical fully warmed-up oil temperatures, maybe 1/2 of gasoline's lighter constituents will "boil-off". Some of the heavier components of gasoline won't do so until temperatures get close to 400F (i.e. essentially never). So once gasoline is introduced to the sump, half or more will remain for the rest of the OCI.
Dan, I believe you. However, your wear metals indicate it doesn't matter what your fuel dilution was, or wasn't. Or, it does no good to look at wear metals...in which case oil analysis is a waste of time and money.

Something many people miss is that ANY fluid between moving parts keeps the parts separated. So, very low-viscosity oils (low viscosity oil further diluted by gasoline), aren't necessarily evil with regards to wear.

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post #14 of 37 Old 04-16-2017, 01:23 PM
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At some point these UOA will become boring and pointless.
Oh really, you think so? Was there any point where they were not boring and pointless?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMVB View Post
But for now they serve up actual data to support my theory that you can actually follow the MM and your engine won't: blow up/seize/throw a rod/blow a gasket/grind itself into metal shards/spin a bearing/etc.
Whoah, now, wait a minute: That's some wild theory you got there! So, you're saying you can kind of count on your car not blowing up if you follow the suggested maintenance schedule? Wow! Here I was, thinking that cars will generally blow up randomly for no particularly reason at all. After all, that's what I see happening everywhere around me, every day.
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post #15 of 37 Old 04-16-2017, 03:42 PM
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I find it funny that you are doing oil analysis on a Honda with just 41k miles. I have not done a single oil analysis on my 07 V6 with 251k miles and it does not burn any oil at all. Are you not convinced that Honda makes great engines?


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