EGR Removal

[turBeau]

Anyone attempted this? I might be the 1st if no one has b/c it is NOT a good thing to have on any vehicle. Honda makes a plate and gasket to block it. You can get them off a K20Z motor (new SI). Its less than 20 bucks for both items.

It might throw a CEL or it might not (probably will), but I'll try removing it but leaving it plugged in and see what happens. If it does, oh well, my motor will be pleased. Then when inspection time comes (if the CEL is on), put it back on, reset the computer, and get her inspected. It is very easy to get to and take off... @ least for us 4 bangers.

Opinions? What do you guys think? Let me know b/c I'm ordering the parts tomorrow.

Beau

[BenjiBoy650]

Be interested to hear why they're no good. The Ody has one of the worst EGR design ever...they had to extend the warranty on it. Some people have cleaned/fixed a clogged EGR 4 or 5 times. If it's no good AND it goes bad shoot I might as well take it off and just put it on for smog like you said. Only problem is that if the CEL has to light for some other malfunction you won't realize it til right before you go get it smogged.

[turBeau]

Its not that the EGR itself is no good, its the function of it thats horrible. Having to clean out the exhaust ports on what is already an emission's friendly motor is beyond me. I'll tear into it once I get it off and see what I can find and post some pics if I find anything of interest.

My old diesel (04.5 Duramax) had one and those things were failing constantly. Mine didn't b/c you could buy a blocker plate to keep the exhaust gases from coming in. Same scenario as the plate from the Si on our cars. If it does indeed set a CEL, and inspection is getting close, put it back on a little early before you take it in. Or, get a scan tool and just erase the p0401 or p0404, which ever one shows up.

Beau

[turBeau]

I'll post a link with pics when I get home from work tonight. It'll show the plate on and off where our EGR resides. (not much longer for mine!)

[turBeau]

I can't get the link to upload. Can we not post links from other Honda forums? Here are the part numbers at least.

18711-PM1-J00 plate
18715-PB2-000 gasket

[turBeau]

UPDATE: Here's the link with pics. Enjoy.

http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20225&highlight=egr

[turBeau]

95 views and hardly any responses; hmmm.... I guess no one is really too concerned about this then? :dunno:

I thought it might go over pretty well since people don't like cleaning the port out. By the way, all that "recycled" exhaust gas is going back into one cylinder; poor ol' #4. :thumbsdow

Maybe some will do this mod when it gets plugged, I'm just not going to wait that long.

Beau

[BenjiBoy650]

I still don't understand whats the point of this whole thing, we don't have that many problems with EGR on this board :dunno:

[turBeau]

You don't understand what? Not trying to be a smart a**, just want to give you a good response in return.

I know some have gone 80k+ (w/o a problem) and some just 15k or so, regardless, RECYCLED exhaust gas back into the intake is a very bad deal. The air has already gone threw the intake side once, so why return it again in a dirtier, filthier, toxic state? Why do you think the K20Z3(Si) has it blocked off?

More than likely it hinders the engine's performance. Again, only #4 cylinder is getting the "treatment" of the EGR. That cylinder ( once it plugs up) will run leaner than the others b/c it won't combust completely and efficiently.

For people that have had this plugging up happen, did you check your spark plugs to see how they compared? Just look @ the pictures in the link I posted. That thick nasty black crap is exactly what is going into your #4 intake. I don't know, maybe I just care about my motor a little too much.

[turBeau]

*Update*

Just took EGR out and installed blocker plate and gasket. Very easy to do if you don't want nasty exhaust going back into your intake. The plate and gasket come off of the 06 Si. The best part so far is no CEL's. I'll keep you guys updated if anything changes as far as mileage increase, etc.

[turBeau]

Useless, huh? Alright, well I'll take a picture of what a "useless" EGR looks like on the inside after only 5500 miles. Nothing that recycles exhaust gas back into the intake to "cool" things is beneficial. But, to each his own.

So, no 7gen's have had to clean out their EGR's b/c of them getting plugged? Let the EPA guy check my engine out; he has to prove I had one there in the 1st place since some K's don't have an EGR.

[edwilson13185]

No problems here. Honda must've gotten the EGR system right for the 7th gen Accords--I'm at 62,000 and no problems. My cousin had a '98 Accord EX V6 that had EGR problems from 50,000 miles on. Seems like they must've gotten them sorted out for the 7th generation.

[Conundrum]

Anyone have info on this for us V6 owners as well? I really don't like the idea of exhaust gases being put back through my intake piping either...

[turBeau]

Why do some K's have them and some don't then? The Si is the most potent motor we can get in the states and it does not have one. Why? Its got the same EGR port that we have just blocked off.

I have no idea where you get your info from about it blowing my motor up when it goes into EGR cycle. The plate itself is on back order for some reason.:dunno: Hmm... I'm not the 1st to do this and the ones who have before me haven't leaned out and burned there pistons up.

Come on man, you really feel that hot exhaust gases entering in #4 intake are beneficial for longevity? :paranoid: Oh boy....

In one of your posts you stated that it will set off a CEL on the highway when it goes into its cycle. I drove home from work last night w/o one CEL. It takes me 40-45 min to get home. Started my car this afternoon to go to work and about a minute and a half into warm up (idling in my garage) my CEL came on.

I can almost 100% assure you that it is p0401, p0404 or both. Neither of these codes will harm the motor and make it go kaboom. I'll just get a scan gauge II and erase them. Or, I can plug in the EGR sensor only (still blocked off) and mount the EGR itself in the bay somewhere and see what happens.

[turBeau]

Diesel trucks and cars have EGR's. Toyota Supra's have EGR's, etc. People block off or completely remove them on these vehicles w/o engine failure. Point I'm trying to make is that an Exhaust Gas Recirculator is harmful to your engine in the long run.

It won't happen fast, its like a slow death. One day your car's just fine and the next.... takes a s*** on you. Trust me, hundreds of diesel trucks have gone in b/c of poor performance all of a sudden. Verdict? Plugged up EGR. I know you know that other Honda's have them and they have to clean them out b/c of the same reason.

Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to get some info out there on alternatives to this and ending having to clean out ports on an already emission friendly car. It's just there to make the EPA go AHHH.

[Marc04LX]

I know this thread is getting some age on it, but I'm hoping for an update. I've fought some EGR related issues with past rides and agree that it's gotta be bad for an engine. The "cooling" effect of the EGR gases is BS. The CEL is likely because the ECU is looking for some feedback from the sensor. I'm considering blocking the flow with a coin or something and re-installing the valve.

[DonutLimo]

you would probably still get a CEL after the egr monitor tries to run a couple times and there is no change in MAP. interesting idea though and i wonder about the cooling effects also:rolleyes:

[Armystrong]

you would probably still get a CEL after the egr monitor tries to run a couple times and there is no change in MAP. interesting idea though and i wonder about the cooling effects also:rolleyes:

TERBEAU: Interesting Topic
How did you find out this information about the EGR on the 05 Accords? Has this happened to alot of owners?

So I am now very curious to get an update on what the results were for you install. Not only that but Post some pictures please.

Since my car is still under warranty, I am not sure I want to try this. Your link with a guy welding something on that plate.......man he has some balls to be doing that around all the aluminum.

[VMA131Marine]

The cooling effect of EGR is to reduce the peak combustion temperature in the engine by using exhaust gas to displace fuel-air mixture. This reduction in temperature is important for limiting the formation of nitrogen oxides (NOx) in the exhaust. Nitrogen oxides mixed with water vapour in the atmosphere create Nitrous and Nitric acids resulting in acid rain.

[Armystrong]

The cooling effect of EGR is to reduce the peak combustion temperature in the engine by using exhaust gas to displace fuel-air mixture. This reduction in temperature is important for limiting the formation of nitrogen oxides (NOx) in the exhaust. Nitrogen oxides mixed with water vapour in the atmosphere create Nitrous and Nitric acids resulting in acid rain.

So is this DIYer task a good idea?

[VMA131Marine]

So is this DIYer task a good idea?

Well, it's probably illegal and the benefits of doing so are dubious at best.

[Edaccord08]

So is this DIYer task a good idea?

No, its bad idea on stock car as the car was engineered to have EGR. as VMA131Marine has posted and also disabling can raise EGT temps during part throttle conditions to a point it might not be good (detonation/pre-ignition conditions).
The issue trying to disable is car manufacture programed the fuel and ignition curves with EGR on (not to mention the emissions part) so with modern fuel injected engine it changes the engine, in old days with carb's it wasn't as bad as carb runs off ventura affect, not a fixed amount like injected motors.

I also have hard time believing the EGR is only goes to 1 cylinder as ever motor I worked on the EGR passage goes into IM plenum, If it did that would be just poor design and probably wouldn't pass emission either right .

Since it only works in part throttle conditions even performance wise it will not do allot other than make part throttle a little more responsive.

Now on modified engine with control over fuel/ignition curves you can remove it as you only are about performance, but a stock car on the street I say you looking for trouble.

[VMA131Marine]

Exhaust gas is supplied from one cylinder only, but is distributed to the intake manifold where it can reach all cylinders.

A couple of other points:

EGR is shut-off at WOT so the system does not affect maximum power output.

EGR is shut-off at idle to prevent rough/poor idle operation

At cruise, EGR operation allows the ECU to advance spark timing more than would be possible without EGR. The effect is to get better fuel economy with EGR than without.

[Edaccord08]

Exhaust gas is supplied from one cylinder only, but is distributed to the intake manifold where it can reach all cylinders.

A couple of other points:

EGR is shut-off at WOT so the system does not affect maximum power output.

EGR is shut-off at idle to prevent rough/poor idle operation

At cruise, EGR operation allows the ECU to advance spark timing more than would be possible without EGR. The effect is to get better fuel economy with EGR than without.

exactly

I see I didn't know they route it from only one exhaust port on Honda.
Most cars route it from a port thats connected to at least a few cylinders, but i guess thats not that important for the amount of exhaust thats needed.

[turBeau]

I got my EGR blocker plate off an 06/07 Si motor. I put it on some time back and didn't notice anything different(good or bad), except peace of mind.

Yes, it did set off a CEL, and I drove it like that for about a month. Put the EGR back on just b/c I was tired of looking @ the CEL. The day I have time to hook up K-Pro and disable the EGR as a whole, then I'll put the plate back on. I just need time to convert my DBW to a linkage system, take the AT out and put in a 5 speed blah, blah...

[thesteve151]

lol i think it is a good idea, i know what you are talking about with the cleaning.:thumbsdow
my bros VW TDI had a massive EGR, that went to all cylinders, and through the intake manifold. so we had to clean it a few times, and that black stuff (exhaust gas plus the oil fumes from the CCV) was he!! to get off.

we just did a whole EGR/anti-shudder-valve/EGR-cooler delete. we took quite a bit of parts off, including some coolant lines, that went to the EGR cooler.
it runs better, not really any HP gain, but the car runs smoother, and feels more responsive, and no CEL. He got lucky, but it has been about 2 months, and still no cell.

[turBeau]

An EGR for any diesel engine is a waste of a good engine. When I had my duramax it had an EGR, too. A guy in Wisconsin made blocker plates specifically for the duramax. I didn't block mine until about 25k, and HOLY COW, my intake was filthy just as you said about your brother's VW. I may put it back on and just live w/ the CEL.

I don't want to be one of those who gets the CEL light b/c of the EGR failing and needing to be cleaned; ports and all. Again I'll say, if our motors were calibrated to have these (as some would say), then how come the 06/07 Si motor doesn't? Its a K20; identical to our motors except the stroke and compression. I know it has more VTC blah, blah... I'm talking about the physical characteristics of the motor itself and how it operates.

Please enlighten me...

[Armystrong]

No, its bad idea on stock car as the car was engineered to have EGR. as VMA131Marine has posted and also disabling can raise EGT temps during part throttle conditions to a point it might not be good (detonation/pre-ignition conditions).
The issue trying to disable is car manufacture programed the fuel and ignition curves with EGR on (not to mention the emissions part) so with modern fuel injected engine it changes the engine, in old days with carb's it wasn't as bad as carb runs off ventura affect, not a fixed amount like injected motors.

I also have hard time believing the EGR is only goes to 1 cylinder as ever motor I worked on the EGR passage goes into IM plenum, If it did that would be just poor design and probably wouldn't pass emission either right .

Since it only works in part throttle conditions even performance wise it will not do allot other than make part throttle a little more responsive.

Now on modified engine with control over fuel/ignition curves you can remove it as you only are about performance, but a stock car on the street I say you looking for trouble.

THANK YOU, EGR is staying in!!! I was almost persuaded.

[nadracer]

The cooling effect of EGR is to reduce the peak combustion temperature in the engine by using exhaust gas to displace fuel-air mixture. This reduction in temperature is important for limiting the formation of nitrogen oxides (NOx) in the exhaust. Nitrogen oxides mixed with water vapour in the atmosphere create Nitrous and Nitric acids resulting in acid rain.

This is very eye opening.:thmsup: I definitely don't want to be apart of contributing to acid rain.

[Edaccord08]

I don't want to be one of those who gets the CEL light b/c of the EGR failing and needing to be cleaned; ports and all. Again I'll say, if our motors were calibrated to have these (as some would say), then how come the 06/07 Si motor doesn't? Its a K20; identical to our motors except the stroke and compression. I know it has more VTC blah, blah... I'm talking about the physical characteristics of the motor itself and how it operates.

Please enlighten me...

Ok, first lets stick to gasoline powered engines to limit the variables.
Now lets look at the civic SI, not sure how you can say its same as your K24 when its not even same family, things right away that are different are the heads (ports are bigger) cams/rockers/VTEC (it has Vtec on exhaust side) ,
Then you have the PGU/ECU that's different too i am sure.

On Honda with Variable Cam control they can kick in overlap on the cams to mimic EGR dilution.
Plus the SI is more of a performance car so lower gas mileage is not as important as HP.
That said it still boils down to how the car was designed, my 08 accord doesn't have EGR value so that's probably much closer to yours but still its all in how they programed it. Mine has MAF and is Calif emissions, that to affects things.

Look I know it can be pain to clean EGR, but even throttle body, Idle control value and PVC systems need cleaning to from time to time so they work right.
Just figure it into maintenance it shouldn't need cleaning to often.

[turBeau]

Here is a link for anyone who wants to block off the EGR

http://www.corsportusa.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2_82&products_id=1922

It says for an Acura TL, but if you read the text it says it'll fit any K series including H22's and J series.

[thesteve151]

If you take the EGR off you might get a CEL.
Is there not a program you can use to dissable the cell for the EGR?

I know that if you have a VW, all you have to do is download VAG-COM, buy a $40 dollar cable to go from your laptop to your car, download the manual, and follow instructions to disable the EGR sensors. surely you can do something similar for a Honda :dunno:

[turBeau]

Kpro can disable it but thats a pretty penny (1100 dollars). I'll keep looking to see if there's a cheaper solution.

I'm sorry, but no engine was meant to have exhaust gases recycled back into the intake.

[thesteve151]

Kpro can disable it but thats a pretty penny (1100 dollars). I'll keep looking to see if there's a cheaper solution.

I'm sorry, but no engine was meant to have exhaust gases recycled back into the intake.

wow that is allot.
and your right, exhaust gases need to stay in the exhaust, not the intake.

[turBeau]

wow that is allot.
and your right, exhaust gases need to stay in the exhaust, not the intake.

It costs so much b/c it's a whole engine management system w/ infinite capabilities for K series.

People say that the EGR reduces NoX, and it does, but on a Honda engine? These motors are so emission's friendly, just don't understand why putting carbon that sticks back inside the IM helps. All it helps is most people having to go to the stealer to get it cleaned.