i know this has been hammered in alot but i was trying to read most of the forums on synthetic and does anyone know what the group four and group five oils on the market are??

i wanna know full synthetic not blends...is penzoil p a full synthetic??

Check out www.bobistheoilguy.com

There is a lot of info there and you may find the answer to your question.

Yes, definitely check out BITOG! :thmsup:

But the short answer to your question is Amsoil (other than their XL line) is Group IV. Redline is as well, and not sure but possibly Schaeffer's. There are some smaller boutique oils for specific purpose, but I don't really know their names or anything about them really.

As for over-the-counter, the only one that *may* be, as least partially G4, is Mobil 1. Well...perhaps some of their viscosities (0W-30 and EP, for example?) are G4, but the most common viscosities (like the 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, and 10W-40) may no longer be. IMHO based on what I've seen and heard and their responses to direct questions, they aren't pure G4 base oils anymore. Maybe a mixture or maybe Group 3, but probably not all Group 4.

Pennzoil Platinum was Group 5 up until November 2005. It is now Group 3.

i tried to do searches on their earlier last nite...it's hard to find out whether or not what synthetic is in which group..how confusing..

Yes, it's hard because most companies won't say. A few do, but most don't. I usually take the silence as meaning Group III. But nothing wrong with Group III...it's pretty much closed the gap with Group IV and in most cases is just as good.

Hi Guys,

Being an Amsoil Dealer myself, this topic goes around between us Dealers just to try and keep a heads up on what everyone is using. Consider most synthetics out there a Group III, which is a highly refined petroleum, or hyrdocracked oil. Syntec started this around 99 and most everyone has followed the trend because production cost is less. Oil in Group III can also vary in quality. This group has to fall within certain specs on a scale. Most companies are using a base stock that is barely above a Group II standard petroleum on this scale, but is refined enough to fall into Group III that the API now allows to be called synthetic. Amsoil XL oil uses the highest grade in this Group available. You are correct that Pennzoil Platinum is a Group III, I emailed them when they first started promoting this oil and asked and they came back with a reply stating that it was.

Group IV are PAO base stock oils. Amsoil's main line and Series 2000/3000 lines use this as well as Mobil 1. This is what was the main synthetic base stock before the Group III change and is still what the die hards call a "true synthetic." Last I heard Royal Purple is still a Group IV in their racing oil, but has always been a blend in the standard line that most shops carry. I have a question mark on this after reading an article in one of the Mustang magazines featuring synthetics where the RP rep was quoted as saying that all synthetics come from crude. Well...yeah, Group III is, but not IV or V. So had RP gone the Group III route as well? They either have, the rep was misquoted, or just he didn't know what he was talking about. For the die hards, they consider Mobil a blend because some of the additives that they use come from their industrial line of fluids, which some of those are petroleum based, so this has made some not like Mobil 1.

Group V is "everything else" but mainly are Ester based oils. As far as I know Redline is still the only oil in this category, unless Neo is still around, haven't heard much from them in years. Both Amsoil and then Mobil started out using ester for their base stock back in the 70s, but found that ester tended to attract and hold moisture so they changed to PAO. Amsoil uses some different ester additives to beef their oil products up more. Redline probably has some additives to help with this moisture issue, but is one reason people I've talked to don't recommend Redline for normal daily driving with the heat up and cool down cycles the everyday car goes through.

Group II oils, as mentioned above consist of today's petroleum oil and Group I isn't used anymore. It is also petroleum but should not be used in the modern engine and can damage them. You probably won't see Group I oil in shops but I have heard some stories where smaller rural convenience stores, etc. might have it. Someone probably gave them a deal on the product and not knowing any better stocked the item. Unfortunately then the unknowing consumer could be the next one using it thinking it's just like all the other oils but cheaper. They've been trying to get what little of this oil might still be around off the shelves.

Mike

Well written, and thank you for not saying Amsoil is the only oil you should ever use.......very refreshing indeed.

I've never heard of M1 referred to as a blend and I am a die hard Bitoger and have been for many years, member # 416- I think? Although it is not yet proven that M1 is now a group 3 the utter silence from Exxon concerning this sure makes you wonder. If it were still a PAO one would think they would still be touting it as such on every magazine ad, TV commercial, and on the packaging itself.

I'll ask around the other Dealers I work with, many of them have contacts and my Direct Jobber is a Certified Lubrication Specialist (only one in Florida). They might know a little more on the latest news. Most of the talk these days is about Mobil 1's Extended Performance oils since this is their extended drain oil they put on the market about two years ago and are claiming that it is a new idea. Not so, even one of the publications I get commented that Amsoil has promoted this since 1972 (and Mobil used to promote it as well with their oil), so the concept Mobil is trying to pass now isn't anything new, just helps to back up that extended drains are possible if the fluid is designed that way. Anyway, the Mobil 1 EP is a PAO. Maybe Mobil lowered the quality of their regular synthetic to help promote this newer line and keep costs down on the other. It wouldn't be the first time they have done this. They used to offer extended drains many years ago, but lowered their additive package to be able to lower pricing and compete with all of the other new synthetics that were popping up all over. They also stopped promoting extended drains at that time.

Mike

aww penzoil platinum is not group 4? *sigh*...it would have been a cheaper alternative to mobil1

The original was but now it's not. Still an excellent oil, use it without fear. It is a cheaper alternative to M1.

The original was but now it's not. Still an excellent oil, use it without fear. It is a cheaper alternative to M1.

Actually, the original was Group V, wasn't it? Not trying to split hairs...just saying. I believe it was Ester-based, not PAO-based. At any rate, it is definitely Group III now. :yes:

Recently, I've found the M1 to be the same price as the PP in Wallyworld...be about 20 bucks for 5 qts....

The decision...stay with PP or go back to M1.....I can't tell a difference and I bet the engine can't either.

Actually, the original was Group V, wasn't it? Not trying to split hairs...just saying. I believe it was Ester-based, not PAO-based. At any rate, it is definitely Group III now. :yes:


Perhaps so, I don't recall.