Sup guys. Just curious as to anyone else that has blended a little E85 w/ 87 octane. I've been doing this for a little while now just to keep all the carbon build inside up to a minimum. Its fuel system cleaner @ the pump for cheaper. I usually just mix a couple of gallons every other fill up. E85 is "bio-diesel" for gas powered vehicles, and anyone who knows a little about bio-diesel knows the benefits it carries.

I wouldn't run a full tank of E85 just b/c we can't take full advantage of the 105 octane rating it carries. Guys with high compression motors or forced induction are taking advantage of the fuel b/c of its high octane, and studies have shown it to be a cooler (temperature) fuel which is another plus to it being a clean fuel.

Does the E85 blend appear to reduce your fuel consumption at all? I've heard ethanol blends produce fewer mpg.

Haven't seen any. I've got a little over 11k on the clock and have been doing this for about 2k now. Just started doing this blending mix on my wife's Cr-V and it seems to like it a lot. Last few road trips pre blending were averaging 26-27 mpg. At her Mom's house now which is 1 1/2 hours from our house, and with the blended mix her display is showing 28.3 mpg average.

I know its getting better b/c the motor is breaking in (~3k), but you'd think it would be worse since most think that the E85 is not that good of a fuel. The mileage would be significantly worse IF I filled the entire tank with E85, but a couple gallons along w/ 87 octane is beneficial. Might even get a little sweet scent of corn coming out your tailpipe. :)

Plus, it comes from our farmers in the USA and is great for the environment.

It has been awhile since I read the report, but Consumer Reports tests showed a significant drop in gas mileage using E85. Quite simply, ethanol does not contain as much energy per unit volume (or per unit mass) as gasoline. Be cautious in using even the blend - except in flexible fuel vehicle cars, the seals in automotive fuel systems are not designed for ethanol, except for the 10% blends used as oxygenates. I believe Honda owner's manuals usually state this.

In reading information on the Honda Owner's Link, Honda recommends the use of Top Tier Detergent gasolines. Honda was one of several automotive companies that developed the specifications. Do a Google search for Top Tier Detergent gasolines for more information, including which gasoline brands meet the specs.

I know a lot of folks are hesitant on using E85. Just realize that in 2009 or so the gas will be a 20 to 30 percent mix of gas/ethanol. Your already filling up with a 10% by volume mix and have been doing it longer than you think w/ no ill effects.:yes: Brazil is one of the leaders in E85 fuel and have been running it, E20, and E30 for years on the same vehicles we drive w/o harm. Diesel owner's today were told only to run B5; they run better with B20 or higher b/c it lubes the engine's parts and cleans it like no other additive. I had a Duramax (GMC) w/ a hot tune in it (450rwhp/900rwtq) and ran exclusively on B99. You could barely tell I had a diesel under the hood b/c it was so quiet. Only give away was it smelled like a chinese restaurant.

Cars 1998 and newer will not be hurt running a couple of gallons of E85 mixed with 87 octane. Actually, it would help them b/c it will clean their engines of carbon build up and make them run tons better. The only caution on it is to change the fuel filter on the older one's around 500 - 800 miles, as it will get clogged b/c of how clean the engine will get.

The bold statement is why I'm starting early with my ride's b/c the lack of an actual fuel filter to change. If I'd had waited 50k or more before adding a blend then it might be a different story.

I assume that you know that the "sock" in your fuel tank is a pretty good filter. I used to use sock filters for dust collection. They weren't as good as cartridge filters, but still good nonetheless. There's also another filter, screen, whatever there as well.

Be careful lumping all vehicles such as your 1998 comparison. All changes don't happen the same year for everyone.

Also, not everyone has 10% alcohol in their fuel at all times yet .

Also, not everyone has 10% alcohol in their fuel at all times yet .

Ah, but your wrong my friend. Diesel owners were pumping ULSD (15 ppm) compared to LSD (500 ppm) long before the stickers ever got changed at the pump. That's a big jump in terms of lubricity.:thumbsdow

All crude oil comes from the same pipeline whether you believe it or not. When it gets to the companies, thats when their additives and detergents are added. In other words, your pumping ethanol along w/ gas into your car whether a sticker says it on the pump or not.

I'm not sure what crude oil has to do with gasoline at the pump. If you had said gasoline is gasoline and the major difference is the additives, I could agree. Anyway, take CA for example. Your gasoline may not go to them. They are special and all you know. :)

I'm very aware of the pumps not having the stickers when ULSD had already arrived. It's similar to price decreases. You have to change the price at the pump before you can lower the price on the sign. Otherwise, folks will see the sign's price & the higher price at the pump.

I said crude oil b/c thats what gas and diesel are made of.

The sticker for USLD is there not warn pervious diesel drivers, but to inform the drivers who have the 2007+ diesel engines that require the low sulfer. Otherwise...you'd have big problems with the new engines.

BTW...whoever said the USLD fuel has less lubricity...you are not correct. That is a ploy that the aftermarket companies are using to sell additives. Word is the new fuel has different additives already in it to provide the lubrication w/o the sulfer.

(BTW...I want my next car/truck to be a diesel...I watch the forums).

Honda's position on the use of fuels with > 10% ethanol (copied and pasted from the FAQ section on Owner's Link):

"The following are the EPA-approved percentages of oxygenates:
ETHANOL (ethyl or grain alcohol): You may use gasoline containing up to 10% ethanol by volume.
MTBE (Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether): You may use gasoline containing up to 15% MTBE by volume.
METHANOL (methyl or wood alcohol): Gasoline containing methanol is not common in North America. Your vehicle was not designed to use fuel that contains methanol. Methanol can damage fuel system components. This damage would not be covered under warranty.

Fuels that exceed the EPA's approved oxygenate percentages for conventional and reformulated gasolines must be clearly labeled on the pump. One example of such a fuel is "E85," which contains 85% ethanol. Do not use such fuels in your vehicle. These fuels will cause performance problems, and may damage your vehicle's engine, fuel system, and emission control system. This damage would not be covered under warranty."

in my opinion, it is pointless to do this. I've seen E85 screw some cars up. the fuel management system cannot deal with it. and you aren't gaining squat. your car does NOT like it. it burns too lean for a car not approved for it. I know this because I've had customer's put it in their cars by mistake and I have to chase "lean" faults to no end until I get them to admit that they put that crap in their cars.........

This is getting blown way out of proportion. You guys are acting like I'm filling my entire tank with it. No way in hell would I do that b/c I know the outcome. I'm merely putting in 2 gallons tops every other fill up just to clean out all the gunk accumulated in the engine.

It even says in the Owner's Manual not to add any additives in our cars, but I've read on here many do.

This is getting blown way out of proportion. You guys are acting like I'm filling my entire tank with it. No way in hell would I do that b/c I know the outcome. I'm merely putting in 2 gallons tops every other fill up just to clean out all the gunk accumulated in the engine.

It even says in the Owner's Manual not to add any additives in our cars, but I've read on here many do.

2 gallons is more than 10%. if you add that to a fuel with a mix of ethanol already in it, you've far exceeded what honda states is ok. thus you have voided your warranty if anything does happen.

you know the outcome is pretty quick when you slap a full tank in there. you DON'T know how long the effects will take to show up when you're "blending" it.

if you wish to continue to take that risk, well, cross your fingewrs and toes that nothing happens to your car. (and i, along with many others here will be hoping and praying that the tech fixing your vehicle can prove that you have done this and refuse you coverage under warranty. i HATE when people disregard the manufacturer's stated uses for the vehicle then expect the resulting problems to be covered under warranty. you're jacking up car prices for those of us who DON'T abuse our vehicles. thanks.)

ps-sticking this in writing online isn't the smartest thing. now that you've done it, if someone is very enterprising, they could track it to your pc and thus priove that you did this to your car whenever something does go wrong.

and now ya can't delete it....... it's out there in cyberspace no matter how many times you click "delete". :yes:

Whatever guys and gals.:dunno: As I stated in a previous post, by 2009 you'll be filling up with either E20 or E30 anyways, so get used to it. Some of you are very "by the Owner's Manual." People, its just a guide for the not so mechanically inclined.

Please take my word for it, if you added a bigger fuel pump, bigger injectors, and a custom ECU (Kpro), then a fill up w/ E85 is nothing. You add the bigger fuel system b/c of the high octane (105) and throw in some aggresive timing. Thats all you need to run E85. Tons of people on other forums w/ high hp cars are using this w/o ill effects; essentially race gas at the pump for dirt cheap.

2 gallons is more than 10%. if you add that to a fuel with a mix of ethanol already in it, you've far exceeded what honda states is ok. thus you have voided your warranty if anything does happen.



Read the pump label closer. It says 10% ethanol by Volume. So, if you have a 5000 gallon tank, thats only 500 gallons of ethanol. I'm not exceeding what Honda recommends by adding 2 gallons of E85 to my 17.1 gallon tank.

Whatever guys and gals.:dunno: As I stated in a previous post, by 2009 you'll be filling up with either E20 or E30 anyways, so get used to it. Some of you are very "by the Owner's Manual." People, its just a guide for the not so mechanically inclined.

Please take my word for it, if you added a bigger fuel pump, bigger injectors, and a custom ECU (Kpro), then a fill up w/ E85 is nothing. You add the bigger fuel system b/c of the high octane (105) and throw in some aggresive timing. Thats all you need to run E85. Tons of people on other forums w/ high hp cars are using this w/o ill effects; essentially race gas at the pump for dirt cheap.

and those mechanically inclined will tell you there is truth to the manual and there are reasons for those recommendations in the manual.... those mechanically inclined who dont' wish to try to "cheat death" so to speak. and some of those mechanically inclined folks will tell you from experience of seeing what happens to the vehicles where people have used e85 where it is not recommended.

some things are not worth the risk. this is one of them. but it's your car, your money, your risk. just don't seek warranty covered repairs or it becomes ALL of our problems.

Read the pump label closer. It says 10% ethanol by Volume. So, if you have a 5000 gallon tank, thats only 500 gallons of ethanol. I'm not exceeding what Honda recommends by adding 2 gallons of E85 to my 17.1 gallon tank.

i don't use e85. i have no reason to read the pump label. if you are using regular gas at a regular pump that already contains the possible up to 10% blend of ethanol in it, you may have already met the manufacturer's rec'd max in your tank. by adding more to it, you would be exceeding it. e85 itself in the form of 2 gallons means you could be exceeding it by a nice chunk if it's pure ethanol. if it's not, you're still potentially exceeding it if your regular gas in 15.1 gallons of your tank "may already contain up to 10% ethanol" as it does in alot of areas. it's called math last i checked. the up to 10% in regular gas makes you unable to add even more because you're risking exceeding manufacturer's rec's by doing so.

if you wish to add the 10% yourself due to your gas not having the ethanol in it already, well, 1.71 gals would be the max per fill then, assuming a full 17.1 gallon fill. (in most cases i doubt it's a full 17.1 fill, probably more like 13 or 14 gallons, which would mean a 1.3 or 1.4 gallon fill of e85.)

i don't use e85. i have no reason to read the pump label. if you are using regular gas at a regular pump that already contains the possible up to 10% blend of ethanol in it, you may have already met the manufacturer's rec'd max in your tank. by adding more to it, you would be exceeding it. e85 itself in the form of 2 gallons means you could be exceeding it by a nice chunk if it's pure ethanol. if it's not, you're still potentially exceeding it if your regular gas in 15.1 gallons of your tank "may already contain up to 10% ethanol" as it does in alot of areas. it's called math last i checked. the up to 10% in regular gas makes you unable to add even more because you're risking exceeding manufacturer's rec's by doing so.

if you wish to add the 10% yourself due to your gas not having the ethanol in it already, well, 1.71 gals would be the max per fill then, assuming a full 17.1 gallon fill. (in most cases i doubt it's a full 17.1 fill, probably more like 13 or 14 gallons, which would mean a 1.3 or 1.4 gallon fill of e85.)

Actually, E85 is not pure ethanol, it only contains between 70 and 83% pure ethanol. So assuming that turbeau is not using gas with ethanol in it already, adding 2 gallons to the 17 gallon tank would not exceed the manufacturer's recommended maximum in the tank. I'm not arguing one way or the other in this thread, but just thought I would add this info, since your math is actually wrong.

Whatever guys and gals.:dunno: As I stated in a previous post, by 2009 you'll be filling up with either E20 or E30 anyways, so get used to it. Some of you are very "by the Owner's Manual." People, its just a guide for the not so mechanically inclined.

Please take my word for it, if you added a bigger fuel pump, bigger injectors, and a custom ECU (Kpro), then a fill up w/ E85 is nothing. You add the bigger fuel system b/c of the high octane (105) and throw in some aggresive timing. Thats all you need to run E85. Tons of people on other forums w/ high hp cars are using this w/o ill effects; essentially race gas at the pump for dirt cheap.

I've been searching with google, and maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I can't find anything about this 2009 E20 or E30.... do you have any documentation of that other than gossip on other forums?

I don't believe that to be the truth because fuel changes are more gradual than that. example... when we went to unleaded fuel, leaded fuel was availible for a long long time before it went away. so I don't think our "up to 10%" fuel will be dissapearing in less than two years. it's just not going to happen. it would leave soooo many people with undriveable cars. earlier fuel injection systems may not deal with it even as well as later model cars.

change this, change that far enough on your car and you could run diesel. what's your point? you want to mod your car to no end so you can use E85 completely 100% reliably? that makes complete sense to me. :rolleyes:

This is getting blown way out of proportion. You guys are acting like I'm filling my entire tank with it. No way in hell would I do that b/c I know the outcome. I'm merely putting in 2 gallons tops every other fill up just to clean out all the gunk accumulated in the engine.


so you don't think there's enough detergents, etc. in standard gasoline to keep you "gunk" free? I work on a lot of cars, some with a lot of miles, and I cannot remember the last time I had a running problem or otherwise caused by any "gunk" in a fuel system. we suspected it many times, and adressed it, but it's never fixed a car in my shop......

Actually, E85 is not pure ethanol, it only contains between 70 and 83% pure ethanol. So assuming that turbeau is not using gas with ethanol in it already, adding 2 gallons to the 17 gallon tank would not exceed the manufacturer's recommended maximum in the tank. I'm not arguing one way or the other in this thread, but just thought I would add this info, since your math is actually wrong.

it's only wrong if he doesn't already have a blend in the regular gas to begin with. but i covered that by saying i don't know any specifics about e85 and that i am assuming his regular gas already contains up to 10% of ethanol. in which case, the math is right....

and those mechanically inclined will tell you there is truth to the manual and there are reasons for those recommendations in the manual.... those mechanically inclined who dont' wish to try to "cheat death" so to speak. and some of those mechanically inclined folks will tell you from experience of seeing what happens to the vehicles where people have used e85 where it is not recommended.



i don't use e85. i have no reason to read the pump label. if you are using regular gas at a regular pump that already contains the possible up to 10% blend of ethanol in it, you may have already met the manufacturer's rec'd max in your tank. by adding more to it, you would be exceeding it. e85 itself in the form of 2 gallons means you could be exceeding it by a nice chunk if it's pure ethanol. if it's not, you're still potentially exceeding it if your regular gas in 15.1 gallons of your tank "may already contain up to 10% ethanol" as it does in alot of areas. it's called math last i checked. the up to 10% in regular gas makes you unable to add even more because you're risking exceeding manufacturer's rec's by doing so.



Like Terps said, E85 is usually 70-75% Ethanol, so that would mean the other roughly 30% is....GAS. Again, the Manual is a guide, that's it. It states to use only Honda fluids. In another thread your encouraging someone to use a GM product for their MT. (shame shame) I didn't read in the Owner's Manual where it said the GM Syncromesh was an acceptable replacement. Practice what you preach before before coming down on me.

Oh, and if you put it in your MT, you've let all of the internet know that you did that regardless if you delete the post. Its out in cyberspace somewhere.:paranoid:

Like Terps said, E85 is usually 70-75% Ethanol, so that would mean the other roughly 30% is....GAS. Again, the Manual is a guide, that's it. It states to use only Honda fluids. In another thread your encouraging someone to use a GM product for their MT. (shame shame) I didn't read in the Owner's Manual where it said the GM Syncromesh was an acceptable replacement. Practice what you preach before before coming down on me.

Oh, and if you put it in your MT, you've let all of the internet know that you did that regardless if you delete the post. Its out in cyberspace somewhere.:paranoid:

once dealers willing put the GM fluid in our cars as a WARRANTY repair. i.e. honda is paying for it, you lost your argument there dude. :lmao: and yeah, they do it. they did it on my old TL and are doing it on my accord very soon.

it's only wrong if he doesn't already have a blend in the regular gas to begin with. but i covered that by saying i don't know any specifics about e85 and that i am assuming his regular gas already contains up to 10% of ethanol. in which case, the math is right....

No its not b/c its 10% by VOLUME...holy cow. That little 10% (by volume mind you) plus E85 which normally is 70 - 75% Ethanol doesn't even come close to it. Back to the drawing board... again.

once dealers willing put the GM fluid in our cars as a WARRANTY repair. i.e. honda is paying for it, you lost your argument there dude. :lmao: and yeah, they do it. they did it on my old TL and are doing it on my accord very soon.

Don't start getting defensive b/c I'm having a discussion with your wife. She keeps talking about what the Manual states yada yada. It nowhere states to put GM Syncromesh in a Honda MT. A lot of people on here are about "does it have the Honda approved" stamp on it. Well, does it? Don't think so.

Don't start getting defensive b/c I'm having a discussion with your wife. Shae keeps talking about what the Manual states yada yada. It nowhere states to put GM Syncromesh in a MT. A lot of people on here are about "does it have the Honda approved" stamp on it. Well, does it? Don't think so.

not defensive. just telling you that you're wrong on that one. you're right it doesn't state you can do that. but if Honda is paying dealers to put it in, how is it wrong? isn't that like unnoficially saying it's ok? Honda wouldn't repeat paying for the gm fluid if they had issue with it. right?

it's only wrong if he doesn't already have a blend in the regular gas to begin with. but i covered that by saying i don't know any specifics about e85 and that i am assuming his regular gas already contains up to 10% of ethanol. in which case, the math is right....

The math is still wrong no matter how you slice it given the fact that you assume E85 to be 100% pure ethanol, which it is not. Plus the majority of gas on the market does not contain ethanol as a blend. I believe something like only 46% of gas contains ethanol, and that does not mean that all 46% contains 10% ethanol or less, that percentage includes all ethanol blends up to E85. So it looks like the percentages favor turbeau putting a non-ethanol blend into his tank. Maybe you should get your facts straight before badgering another person over their use of something different.

Turbeau is right, this thread is getting a little out of hand. I mean its his car and he can do whatever he wants to that vehicle. If he does damage and makes a warranty claim, so be it. No matter how many times you state it, his claim is not going to make much of a difference for the rest of us in terms of future prices. Those prices are going to go up with time just based on inflation alone, so what difference does it really make. I also don't think that Honda will bother wasting their precious resources (time, money, etc.) to track turbeau's thread down just to void his warranty claim. That would likely cost more than simply repairing his vehicle.

not defensive. just telling you that you're wrong on that one. you're right it doesn't state you can do that. but if Honda is paying dealers to put it in, how is it wrong? isn't that like unnoficially saying it's ok? Honda wouldn't repeat paying for the gm fluid if they had issue with it. right?

Is there a TSB saying it is an acceptable replacement? I'm just going off what a lot has been said so far. "The Owner's Manual doesn't list it so it can't be good enough for a Honda.":scratch:

I know how well the Syncromesh performs in MT's, I'm glad you put it in your's. I just feel like I'm beating a dead horse right now. Y'all will be filling up w/ E20 or E30 soon enough and won't have anything to argue with except the pump.

It sounds like a neat little experiment. You say this has been ongoing for a little while - how long exactly? How's your fuel pressure readings?

I wonder about fuel dilution. Any oil analysis to see what effects E85 mix has on lubricity, & aromatic oil crashing?

It sounds like a neat little experiment. You say this has been ongoing for a little while - how long exactly? How's your fuel pressure readings?

I wonder about fuel dilution. Any oil analysis to see what effects E85 mix has on lubricity, & aromatic oil crashing?

Been doing it over the course of ~2k miles. I drive roughly 75 miles a day 5 days a week, so a month or so. Don't know about fuel pressure b/c I don't have a gauge, sorry. I'll get my next oil changed analyzed and see how she looks.

I guess if I wanted to take full advantage of a full tank of E85, I could get the Greddy E-Manage w/ a Boomslang harness, Walbro 190 or 250lph fuel pump, and larger injectors and put some good numbers down. Plus, I'd be helping reduce greenhouse gases w/ more hp & tq.:thmsup: I can easily get all this stuff for less than a grand. You need the harness only if your an auto, which I am @ the moment.

Following are test results from Consumer Reports:

"Test results: E85 vs. gasoline
This chart shows how our 2007 Chevrolet Tahoe performed while running on E85 and gasoline in three fuel-economy tests and overall, in four acceleration tests, and in three emissions tests for gasoline vehicles."

Note: First number is for E85, second is for gasoline

"Fuel economy, mpg
City 7 9
Highway 15 21
150-mile trip 13 18
Overall 10 14

Acceleration
0-30 mph, sec. 3.4 3.5
0-60 mph, sec. 8.9 9.1
45-65 mph, sec. 5.7 5.8
Quarter-mile, sec./mph 16.8/84.6 16.9/84.5
Emissions, parts per million
Nitrogen oxide 1 9
Hydrocarbons 1 1
Carbon monoxide 0 0"

Note that there is a loss of fuel mileage, a marginal drop in performance, and a notable improvement in NOx emissions with E85. The vehicle was flexible fuel vehicle.

Following are test results from Consumer Reports:

"Test results: E85 vs. gasoline
This chart shows how our 2007 Chevrolet Tahoe performed while running on E85 and gasoline in three fuel-economy tests and overall, in four acceleration tests, and in three emissions tests for gasoline vehicles."

Note: First number is for E85, second is for gasoline

"Fuel economy, mpg
City 7 9
Highway 15 21
150-mile trip 13 18
Overall 10 14

Acceleration
0-30 mph, sec. 3.4 3.5
0-60 mph, sec. 8.9 9.1
45-65 mph, sec. 5.7 5.8
Quarter-mile, sec./mph 16.8/84.6 16.9/84.5
Emissions, parts per million
Nitrogen oxide 1 9
Hydrocarbons 1 1
Carbon monoxide 0 0"

Note that there is a loss of fuel mileage, a marginal drop in performance, and a notable improvement in NOx emissions with E85. The vehicle was flexible fuel vehicle.

that is also for a flex fuel vehicle that is meant to run on E85, right? accords are NOT meant to run on it, thus those numbers at this time mean nothing....



and as far as fuel pressure, it should be the same. that is control by the pressure regulator. if the engine is running lean, it will increase the injection timing in milliseconds, not pressure most of the time.

You guys and gals have fun with this thread. I'm talking to a brick wall in this discussion.

The "tune" that is set-up for a flex vehicle when filled w/ E85 does not take full advantage of the potential of the fuel. Why? Because most people have no idea how to properly maintain a vehicle today. They have to make a universal tune, so to speak, to accomodate a broad range of folks that drive a flex fuel vehicle.

Why in the world do you think we have oil change indicators and tire pressure monitoring systems, etc? The world today is lazy for the most part and can't fathom pulling the dipstick ever so often or bending over to unscrew a valve stem cap. Thats where were at in 2007. So yes, the "overall" indication of
E85 not being a performer to the normal driver is nill, but the performance enthusiast or "spirited" driver sees the light.

stevel,

You said that it doesn't affect fuel pressure most of the time. At what times does it affect pressure or was that a general catch-all "most of the time" for other mfg?

stevel,

You said that it doesn't affect fuel pressure most of the time. At what times does it affect pressure or was that a general catch-all "most of the time" for other mfg?

sorry, it shouldn't affect it at all. I just don't know for sure on Honda's if they adjust fuel pressure independant on load. so if the car is running lean, I dont know if it will electronically adjust fuel pressure along with injection time. I just left my statement open like that for my lack of exact knowledge of how honda does that operation. on my respective carlines, it would be the same regardless, adjusted based on load, with injection timing changed to compensate for a lean condition at idle or cruising.

when honda goes ahead and fills your tank for ya with e85, then the argument makes sense that we're saying gm tran fluid is ok, therefore e85 should be ok because neither are listed in the manual. but for now , it doesn't and it is because honda has never said e85 belongs in the vehilce AT ALL. acura did the gm fluid in the tl through waranty. they did it, they ok'd it. that's them saying, hey, this is ok. they are planning the same with the accord. again, this is HONDA saying the gm trans fluid is ok. this is not us running off and deciding to give some random fluid a try like you are making it out to sound. it's not that at all.

however, i have never ever gone to a dealership and had them suggest putting e85 in a car. i have never seen a place where HONDA has said this is a recommended for any of their vehicles or even a place where they have said hey it can't hurt it. quite

as far as by volume goes, it doesn't change what 10% is. 10% by volume is 10% of what goes into your tank. it's a liquid, it's measured in volume.

do you not for one second think that honda would gladly advertise that their vehicles can readily accept e85 fuel with all the hoopla surrounding e85?? why let other manufacturers advertise some of their vehicles can do it and get ahead of honda on something like that? does that make any sense at all to you? if a honda could safely run on that fuel, they'd be advertising it. while it may just be a case of they don't have enough proof yet as to whether it's viable or not, that gives me more than enough reason to NOT do it.

and yes, one person's use of it if it results in a warranty claim can VERY EASILY translate into alot more warranty claims. it's pretty obvious how many people will follow some trendy practice to look "cool" or whatever their motive. thereforee, one person making a big deal over using it leads to other people wanting to try it and see for themselves. gosh, the internet is such a vast place and any joe schmoe can make themselves SOUND knowledgable enough for others to want to follow them. if i wanted to, i could sit here and make myself sound like a fricking honda engineer and throw around some nice terminology about why it's not a good idea, but frankly, i don't feel like wasting my time.

in other words, keep risky trials to yourself so as not to entice some moron somewhere to try it out for themselves and have a snowball effect with something that may very well not be good for the car.

in other words, keep risky trials to yourself so as not to entice some moron somewhere to try it out for themselves and have a snowball effect with something that may very well not be good for the car.

Amen. I posted a lot of the information that I did for the benefit of other readers, rather than for the original author.

Are you sure y'all aren't thinking about Methanol instead of Ethanol? Methanol is an alcohol and will eat at rubber seals, etc. Just want to make sure we're all on the same page.

Are you sure y'all aren't thinking about Methanol instead of Ethanol? Methanol is an alcohol and will eat at rubber seals, etc. Just want to make sure we're all on the same page.

yes. E85, I've seen it screw cars up.

yes. E85, I've seen it screw cars up.

Ok. What did you see to make your decision on E85 being the culprit? Our cars can run the fuel, thats why I'm asking. Again, I'm merely putting in 2 gallons tops every other fill up just to cleanse the motor, so to speak. Its not about our motors not being able to run the fuel, its the stock ECU program that screws you.

If you got a programmable ECU (kpro) with a bigger fuel system (injectors, pump, adj. regulator), fill er' up with E85 and go tune it on a dyno. You'll make more power than before, be a more efficient motor (burns cleaner, motor is cooler, less greenhouse gases), and pay less @ the pump.

Lots of people are leary about E85, just like when they took lead out of gas. Everybody said that wouldn't ever work....

I always felt my car ran worse on that 10% ethanol. I try to avoid it.

Ran into it (or re-ran into it) on my last cross country trek. Got it in the plains. Cost savings at the pump did not make up for the decreased economy. And, the motor sounded rougher. I had too many fill-ups to not notice. I hope they never reintroduce it here. (We do have the E85, though).

However, I'm still struggling with "the math". If E85 is 70% ethanol, then there is 0.7 gallons of ethanol per 1 gallon of E85. Therefore, 2 gallons of E85 would yield 1.4 gallons of ethanol. And, thus, in order to exceed the 10% rule, you would have to introduce 1.7 gallons of ethanol (17 gallon tank - assuming rest is not ethanol).

Why not just use the 10% stuff if that is your fancy?

Ok. What did you see to make your decision on E85 being the culprit? Our cars can run the fuel, thats why I'm asking. Again, I'm merely putting in 2 gallons tops every other fill up just to cleanse the motor, so to speak. Its not about our motors not being able to run the fuel, its the stock ECU program that screws you.

If you got a programmable ECU (kpro) with a bigger fuel system (injectors, pump, adj. regulator), fill er' up with E85 and go tune it on a dyno. You'll make more power than before, be a more efficient motor (burns cleaner, motor is cooler, less greenhouse gases), and pay less @ the pump.

Lots of people are leary about E85, just like when they took lead out of gas. Everybody said that wouldn't ever work....

next time I'm in the mood to type something long and technical, I will. for now, I'll refer you to my previous post in which you never replied.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by turBeau
Whatever guys and gals. As I stated in a previous post, by 2009 you'll be filling up with either E20 or E30 anyways, so get used to it. Some of you are very "by the Owner's Manual." People, its just a guide for the not so mechanically inclined.

Please take my word for it, if you added a bigger fuel pump, bigger injectors, and a custom ECU (Kpro), then a fill up w/ E85 is nothing. You add the bigger fuel system b/c of the high octane (105) and throw in some aggresive timing. Thats all you need to run E85. Tons of people on other forums w/ high hp cars are using this w/o ill effects; essentially race gas at the pump for dirt cheap.


me.....
I've been searching with google, and maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I can't find anything about this 2009 E20 or E30.... do you have any documentation of that other than gossip on other forums?

I don't believe that to be the truth because fuel changes are more gradual than that. example... when we went to unleaded fuel, leaded fuel was availible for a long long time before it went away. so I don't think our "up to 10%" fuel will be dissapearing in less than two years. it's just not going to happen. it would leave soooo many people with undriveable cars. earlier fuel injection systems may not deal with it even as well as later model cars.

change this, change that far enough on your car and you could run diesel. what's your point? you want to mod your car to no end so you can use E85 completely 100% reliably? that makes complete sense to me.


Quote:tur beau
This is getting blown way out of proportion. You guys are acting like I'm filling my entire tank with it. No way in hell would I do that b/c I know the outcome. I'm merely putting in 2 gallons tops every other fill up just to clean out all the gunk accumulated in the engine.

me.......
so you don't think there's enough detergents, etc. in standard gasoline to keep you "gunk" free? I work on a lot of cars, some with a lot of miles, and I cannot remember the last time I had a running problem or otherwise caused by any "gunk" in a fuel system. we suspected it many times, and adressed it, but it's never fixed a car in my shop......

I always felt my car ran worse on that 10% ethanol. I try to avoid it.

Ran into it (or re-ran into it) on my last cross country trek. Got it in the plains. Cost savings at the pump did not make up for the decreased economy. And, the motor sounded rougher. I had too many fill-ups to not notice. I hope they never reintroduce it here. (We do have the E85, though).

However, I'm still struggling with "the math". If E85 is 70% ethanol, then there is 0.7 gallons of ethanol per 1 gallon of E85. Therefore, 2 gallons of E85 would yield 1.4 gallons of ethanol. And, thus, in order to exceed the 10% rule, you would have to introduce 1.7 gallons of ethanol (17 gallon tank - assuming rest is not ethanol).

Why not just use the 10% stuff if that is your fancy?

with the math, after researching more, i'm still completely perplexed as to where this e85=70-73% ethanol.... everywhere i've found states plain as day e85 should be approximately 85% ethanol. that would be exactly 1.7 gallons of the 2 gallons that is ethanol. and when i've stated my math, i've stated that the 10% (up to 1.7 in the 17.1 gal tank, assuming a complete 17.1 gallon fill up) would exceed the 10% if you were using e85 on top of a blend that already contains up to 10% (aka~e10). and you would easily exceed the 10% max if you were not putting a total of 17.1 gallons in your tank at every fill up as well. (i.e. if you put 12 gallons of gas that contains no ethanol, then 2 gallons of e85. you would likely have some residual fluid in the tank from prior fill ups, but that fluid would have to be assumed to be gas with no ethanol and it would have to be the full 3.1 gallons to complete the 17.1 gallon tank.....)

maybe i'm not phrasing this correctly or someone isn't reading it correctly, but by all means i have yet to find someone in real life who claims the math is wrong..................

some reads for ya:

http://wcco.com/consumer/local_story_097232948.html
http://www.leftlanenews.com/study-e85-emissions-could-cause-as-many-deaths-as-gasoline-or-more.html
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/sample.cgi/esthag/2007/41/i11/html/es062085v.html

turBeau Are you sure y'all aren't thinking about Methanol instead of Ethanol? Methanol is an alcohol and will eat at rubber seals, etc. Just want to make sure we're all on the same page.

look into it a bit more-i'm finding plenty of reading material telling you about how ethanol is corrosive.... ethanol is an alcohol as well.

also here:
http://www.agriculture.state.ia.us/e85q&a.html

notable info on there (fyi: it's a site that suggets e85 is a good thing is saying this):
Can a car be retrofitted or converted to use E85?
We do not recommend the conversion of a gasoline-only vehicle to operate on E85. FFVs that come with original equipment from the manufacturer have the same warranties as gasoline vehicles and they are specially suited to use E85 as efficiently as possible and to burn cleaner.

What are the differences in an FFV compared to a regular gasoline-only model? Are different parts used?
There is only one major additional part that is included on an FFV—the fuel sensor that detects the ethanol/gasoline ratio. A number of other parts on the FFV’s fuel delivery system are modified so that they are ethanol compatible. The fuel tank, fuel lines, fuel injectors, computer system, anti-siphon device and dashboard gauges have been modified slightly. Alcohols are corrosive. Therefore, any part that comes in contact with the fuel has been upgraded to be tolerant to alcohol. Normally, these parts include a stainless steel fuel tank and Teflon lined fuel hoses.

Will I hurt a gasoline-only vehicle if I use E85?
Yes. Longer-term use of E85 in gasoline-only vehicles may cause damage because of the incompatibility of the alcohol fuel with the parts in gasoline-only engines. Performance and emissions will also be compromised.


http://www.ilcorn.org/Ethanol/EthanolFact/ethanolfact.html
What is Ethanol?
Ethanol is an alcohol made from renewable resources such as corn and other cereal grains, food and other beverage wastes and forestry by-products. Ethanol-blended fuel substantially reduces carbon monoxide and volatile organic compound emissions, which are precursors to ozone. The corn-based substance is added to gasoline blends to meet oxygenate level requirements mandated by the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments and to raise the octane level.

ok, i could keep going, but this went from amusing to boring quickly and lunch time is over....... :lmao:

I will admit, I thought E85 was 85% ethanol too.... Hence the name. I have yet to be shown a document to the contrary.

However, I still don't understand why someone would go through the hassle of introducing 2 gallons of E85 when the 10% stuff is available. Of course, I say that like the 10% stuff is available here. It's not [thank god].

Anywhos, it seems we're following the same math. Cool! Just checking my reading comprehension skills.

I will admit, I thought E85 was 85% ethanol too.... Hence the name. I have yet to be shown a document to the contrary.

However, I still don't understand why someone would go through the hassle of introducing 2 gallons of E85 when the 10% stuff is available. Of course, I say that like the 10% stuff is available here. It's not [thank god].

Anywhos, it seems we're following the same math. Cool! Just checking my reading comprehension skills.

eh, i get way too wordy and tend to confuse alot of people! if i was discussing the math in person and someone could ask for clarification when it's needed, i think i'd be better understood in that regards! :lmao: at any rate, i doubt it's your reading comprehension skills! it's probably my phrasing!

Instead of dealing with two pumps why not use one of the top tier gasolines? They must have 10% ethanol in them by law.......simple.

Instead of dealing with two pumps why not use one of the top tier gasolines? They must have 10% ethanol in them by law.......simple.

By law? State or Fed?

Wouldn't they also be required to disclose that information (ie that the fuel contained 10% ethanol)?

I have seen no such disclosures here.

Also, I totally agree. If the 10% is available, why not just fill up with it?

And..... I was reading on e85fuel.com..... Honda's are NOT listed as compatible with E85. If the maker/seller of the fuel says not to use it, I wouldn't use it.

By law? State or Fed?


Top Tier Gas Deposit Control (http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html) Section 1.3.1.2 Base Fuel is where you will find information on ethanol.

This is what Honda has to say, for now at least.

http://automobiles.honda.com/information/frequently-asked-questions.aspx?Question=5

Top Tier Gas Deposit Control (http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html) Section 1.3.1.2 Base Fuel is where you will find information on ethanol.

I have been corrected in that Top Tier doesn't have to have ethanol.

"The base fuel is the base used in this test. Notice that the description lists the amount of junk as minimums. ("No less than 48 mg/kg sulfur", for example). The detergent package that is tested must prevent that junk from collecting. The entire link is about how the standards are demonstated via testing. You must show that your additive keeps things clean and that without your additive things get dirty. The base fuel standard is to prevent a company from using some super-clean base that doesn't dirty an engine anyway and then claiming that their additives work."

This says it does----------------

.3.1.2 Base Fuel. The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806. All gasoline blend stocks used to formulate the base fuel shall be representative of normal U.S. refinery operations and shall be derived from conversion units downstream of distillation. Butanes and pentanes are allowed for vapor pressure adjustment. The use of chemical streams is prohibited. The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.
Contain no less than 8 volume percent olefins. At least 75% of the olefins shall be derived from FCC gasoline as defined by CARB (advisory letter, April 19, 2001).
Contain no less than 28 volume percent aromatics.
Contain no less than 48 mg/kg sulfur. At least 60% of the sulfur shall be derived from FCC blend stock.
Produce a 90% evaporation distillation temperature no less than 290°F.
Produce IVD no less than 500 mg averaged over all intake valves.