Valve adjustment? [Archive] - Drive Accord Honda Forums

: Valve adjustment?


AV6Steve
11-12-2007, 10:58 AM
How difficult is it to check valve clearance? My car has been ticking like crazy for the past 8000 miles. I have been to all three local stealers: two of them say they can hear it, one says its just the injectors, and none of them know what they are talking about.. I know i would have to take the IM off and the valve covers also, but after i get that far how difficult is it to use the feeler guages?? any info would be great

benjamming
11-12-2007, 11:58 AM
What year, etc.?

AV6Steve
11-12-2007, 01:10 PM
Oh, sorry.. 2003 V6 6Speed 70,000 miles..

Fredsvt
11-12-2007, 04:12 PM
Oh, sorry.. 2003 V6 6Speed 70,000 miles..

Once you pull the covers check the rollers for the rocker arms. Some 03 and 04s have had the needle bearings come out of the rollers. Then the cams are destroyed in short order.

Also, I have not seen many low mileage J series make valve train noise. The only ones are what I mentioned above or ones that have been overrevved. Over revving even a little will cause the pistons to kiss the valves, some will keep running ok, but make noise. Others drop compression and run like crap

TonyWare
11-12-2007, 04:29 PM
Normally you don't need to adjust hydraulic valves. Unless they are noisy. Part of that ticking noise does come from the injectors. That is another story if they never had any application of any injector cleaner (the stuff you put in the gas tank).

I did mine in late July. Big job since this was the first time I did something like that. Lots of studying and research. For that job you may want to get a hold of the Haynes repair manual. It explains everything in detail. However what you'll find out soon is that you'll spend half your time cleaning what you remove, like the intake manifold, the throttle body valve, the valve covers and all the bad oil from inside the valve train areas. Also you will need a new set of gaskets for the valve covers and a new gasket for the upper manifold base. Don't be fooled by the good condition of the removed old valve cover gaskets. They may look ok but compare to the bran new ones they aren't as soft. Better get the new ones in. Also, the back valve cover may be a bit tricky to take off since that stupid black rail with the spark plug wires isn't something I was looking forward removing.

Here is how my valve trains looked like when I first opened it up after 100k miles.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/7254/picture15wd5.jpg

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6217/picture21he9.jpg

I think somewhere in this forum there is a PDF file that explains what to do. However to get to the valves you need to know a few basics of "turning the wrench". For example, disconnect the battery and relieve the fuel pressure before you remove the intake manifold (big blue relay on the driver side cabin, just above the fuse box behind the kick panel, pull it out and crank the engine a bit to get rid of the gas from the engine). Also, take off the spark plugs so that you can turn the engine from cylinder to cylinder easier as you go through the motions of adjusting the valves for each cylinder. Essential tool is a valve adjusting tool (Google it!) and feeler gauges. Get the feeler gauges that are bent or at least some that you can bent to get under there (not too much space there to work with!). Also a torque wrench since the manifold and the valve covers have torque specifications. You will find the intake valves tend to loosen and the exhaust valves tend to get tight over time.

So read up all you can before you start. Get the right tools, the right parts (new gaskets!) and book a good back massage because by the time you are done bending over the engine bay for hours at a time you will need it !

Hope this helps.

turBeau
11-12-2007, 06:11 PM
The inside looks very clean for 100k, Tony. You definatley haven't neglected her.:thmsup: I can take a guess and say that the clearences weren't that far off from spec, huh?

AV6Steve
11-12-2007, 06:23 PM
Once you pull the covers check the rollers for the rocker arms. Some 03 and 04s have had the needle bearings come out of the rollers. Then the cams are destroyed in short order.

Also, I have not seen many low mileage J series make valve train noise. The only ones are what I mentioned above or ones that have been overrevved. Over revving even a little will cause the pistons to kiss the valves, some will keep running ok, but make noise. Others drop compression and run like crap


Actually, that is my story.. haha.. i was at the track for the first time.. my tires were not hooking up at all and it was really getting to me. i ran against a little hatchback my first run and beat him, which i expected, but i only ran a 15.1. He wanted to run again so of course i did and i was paying more attention to how many car lengths were between us than i was at shifting.. i reached the top of third and was shifting to 4th when, !!!!!, hello second gear! Idle was horrible, but that was the only noticable difference until the check engine light came on. took it to the dealer the monday after, not telling them what had really happened. The adjuster came and knew what it was, hondacare declined coverage, and i am out $2,800. Expensive mistake, i know, but i now have all new exhaust valves and a new rear head.. haha.

Now my car is nothing like it was before, as far as noises. It ticks all the time.. follows the RPM's and is loudest when cold. Injector cleaner made no difference.. im running mobil1 synthetic that i change every 3500 miles. I am not sure what else to do besides check valve clearance and now the needle bearings..

The dealership who did the work wont even look at it again. I do understand its a full day worth of work, but when it sounds like S*** I figure they would at least be concerned. But who am i kidding, they have their money. They played it off twice in the same day by telling me it was the Purge valve solinoid and promising all noises were normal. I want to start doing all work myself but im still under that extended warranty so its kinda hard for me to pull away from the dealerships when things should be looked at or fixed for free.

Sorry for the long post

TonyWare
11-12-2007, 06:52 PM
The inside looks very clean for 100k, Tony. You definatley haven't neglected her.:thmsup: I can take a guess and say that the clearences weren't that far off from spec, huh?

The exhaust somehow were tight down to around 0.006, half the recommended. The intake were all ok but still loosened up the bolts and with a screw driver and feeler gauge adjusted them all again to the recommended clearance. Cleaning all the dirty oil in there may be also a contributing factor in noise reduction.

In a month or so I'll open it up again since I am about to receive the Acura TL type S camshafts I ordered (plug and play they say). Assuming I find a place to work, since its getting cold in my garage. So everything will come off and checked again.

....The dealership who did the work wont even look at it again....

Go to another dealership?

RTexasF
11-12-2007, 07:05 PM
You'll think I'm crazy but the oil you use can make the engine louder (ticking) or softer even though everything is in correct parameters. Mobil 1 is known to make Honda engines tick & click but works well. Other brand names quiet the noise within 100 miles of changing oil.

Just a thought, you might want to change to 5W20 Pennzoil Platinum to see if it quiets things down. After all.....the cost is only an oil change and a filter. Try it. The worst? It still ticks excessively and you adjust the valves.

AV6Steve
11-12-2007, 08:27 PM
Go to another dealership?


Tried already. No one else will touch it because they dont want to get involved with all the repairs the other dealer did. I have even called consumer relations and hondacare claims. If they open it up and find that nothing is wrong besides a need for adjustment then i will have to pay out of pocket for the labor.



Just a thought, you might want to change to 5W20 Pennzoil Platinum to see if it quiets things down. After all.....the cost is only an oil change and a filter. Try it. The worst? It still ticks excessively and you adjust the valves.

Thanks for the info. ill def try that next oil change. cant hurt.

DonutLimo
11-12-2007, 08:36 PM
i wonder what the chances of it being wrist pins? trying to think of what else could make that noise after the over rev..

TonyWare
11-13-2007, 03:29 AM
Yes, oil may help. If you don't want to open it up to clean/adjust.

You may want to try 30% Lucas Oil for 2-3 back to back oil changes (like one oil change every week for 2-3 weeks) and see if they go quiet. Then go back to the Honda 5w20. Also get into the habit of filling up with higher octane gas, as it is more clean... and get it on the highway for an hour or so.

princess
11-13-2007, 09:01 AM
In case you decide to tackle adjusting them yourself:

SatinSilver
11-13-2007, 09:20 AM
"Also get into the habit of filling up with higher octane gas, as it is more clean... and get it on the highway for an hour or so."[/QUOTE]

It also makes a big difference by using a Top Tier gasoline..like Shell etc. I just made the change and it was well worth it.

AV6Steve
11-13-2007, 10:48 AM
Thanks for all the info guys... Wow, 24 hours and about 12 responses... dont know why i was just lurking around here before.. thanks a lot!

Fredsvt
11-13-2007, 03:51 PM
Just some information, most Hondas don't have hydraulic lash (clearance) adjusters. They maintain zero lash at the valves.
If they did, there would be no need to open them up and adjust/inspect them.

There are some exceptions, the older 2.7 V6 was a mix of hydraulic/manual adjustment. A mess. And the Isuzu (Passport) V6s are hydraulic, but they quit working due to poor design and clatter like hell. They are now requiring 0w30 oil to keep them working. Only in a synthetic like M1.

NVA-AV6
11-14-2007, 07:28 AM
[QUOTE=TonyWare;183390]
In a month or so I'll open it up again since I am about to receive the Acura TL type S camshafts I ordered (plug and play they say). Assuming I find a place to work, since its getting cold in my garage. So everything will come off and checked again.
[QUOTE]

Yes Tony, the cams are direct plug and play, to be a little more specific the cams are from the 07 TL-S, 06NightHawkAV6 from the other forum has already driven for 300+miles on them and will be hitting the dyno tonight....

:wave:

AV6Steve
11-14-2007, 08:37 AM
These cams are direct plug and play to the J30A4? If so, what are the benefits? i have read about this but the information is somewhat limited... If i planned on replacing the cams in the future, would another valve adjustment be necessary? I just dont feel like opening up my engine twice.. if thats the case i would just buy the cams now if i could possibly get step by step instructions on installation.. AND if 06NightHawkAV6 has good results on his dyno

NVA-AV6
11-14-2007, 10:12 AM
They are direct drop for the following heads....

J30A4
J30A5
J32A3
J35A5

These I know they will work with, others may be possible.

The cams are forged and hollow which means less parasidic power loss, kina like a lightweight flywheel or crank pully, they are a little over a pound lighter each than stock AV6 cams. Also they have a much increased VTEC duration.

Installation would be exactly the same as for the stock cams, just get the factory book off ebay, and yes you will haqve to readjust your valves, twice actually, once at install and agian after 200-300 miles and the rockers have seated on the cams. I would also consider timing belt replacement if you are anywhere near due since you already have to pull it off to swap the cams, also always replace the cam shaft seals, $5 ea, vs a possible oil leak and having to pull it all apart again, umm, not a hard decision.

AV6Steve
11-14-2007, 10:31 AM
Any good results with these in the J30A4 ??

NVA-AV6
11-14-2007, 10:46 AM
Too new of a find, TonyWares' cams are on the way to him, I shipped them out yesterday, so I am sure he will give us a good report...

TonyWare
11-15-2007, 05:54 AM
^ thanks.


Sorry for contaminating a valve adjustment thread with a cam upgrade :D...

but it may take until next spring for me to do mine. Too many things going on life-wise like a possible move to another place and lack space to work on her... however I got all the time in the world to study the process and get it right when the time comes. At the same time I am planning to pull out the entire heads and "take them home" to clean them up, plus clean whatever is underneath them. So I am looking at a 50% engine re-build sceario here.

AV6Steve
11-16-2007, 08:45 AM
Does anyone here happen to have the spec measurements for the J30A4 intake and exhaust valves??

TonyWare
11-16-2007, 10:07 AM
Does anyone here happen to have the spec measurements for the J30A4 intake and exhaust valves??

Valve clearance when engine is cold:

Intake 0.20 - 0.24mm or 0.008 - 0.009in
Exhaust 0.28 - 0.32mm or 0.011 - 0.013in

(edit: thats the V6... for the 4bangers look below for additional info)

princess
11-16-2007, 12:54 PM
07 V6 :Valve Clearance
Intake:
0.20-0.24 mm (0.008-0.009 in.)

Exhaust:
0.28-0.32 mm (0.011-0.013 in.)

08 V6 are the same.


08 L4s are: (all 7th gen too)
Valve Clearance

Intake:
0.21-0.25 mm (0.008-0.010 in.)

Exhaust:
0.25-0.29 mm (0.010-0.011 in.)

FYI

Honda has the required valve clearance on the underhood sticker.

AV6Steve
11-19-2007, 07:43 PM
Well i have decided to go back to the dealer and "request" that they check the valve clearance. I would like to gain a little bit more knowledge before i take it tomorrow so here are a couple of questions i have:

1. Would the Air/Fuel ratio be able to show that the valve clearance is within spec? On my last visit to the service department, the tech said,"I checked the air/fuel ratio and it was 'perfect', so your valve clearance is within spec." Is this correct and could the valves possibly be out even though the a/f is perfect??

2. I was told that after any 'valve work' there should be a check up done around 1000 miles later. Is this true for Hondas?? If so, i was never told by the dealer to return for any sort of check up for all of the work that was done.

If anyone has any answers please let me know.. ill be going in tmorrow afternoon thanks

princess
11-19-2007, 08:05 PM
Yes, one way to varify the valve clearance is close, is by checking the air/fuel ratio. If they were off by too much it would show up in the ratio.

No, it doesn't NEED a recheck. It doesn't hurt. Some types & quality of machine work it's a good idea to recheck. If the work is all done correctly, the need isn't there.

Good luck!

AV6Steve
11-19-2007, 08:31 PM
If they were just slightly out of adjustment, and the a/f ratio was perfect, would they be out enough to make the ticking noise?? this "ticking" is so loud that i can hear it inside my car when crusing at low speeds around 1800 rpms.

princess
11-19-2007, 08:58 PM
It sounds to me like something may have got missed in the repair..... maybe a valve is slightly bent & didn't get replaced (intake) or some other damage. :dunno:

NORMALLY when the air/fuel is right, so are the valves. Other than opening it up & doing more serious checking & testing, I don't know how to figure this out here. :dunno: One of those hands on cases!

Fredsvt
11-20-2007, 03:57 PM
The only way I'd see the a/f ratio being off is if the valves were WAY out of adjustment. Like the older CR-Vs with the 2.0, when they'd get so tight, they'd ever so slightly hold the exhaust valves open, and they'd misfire, stumble and stall.

If they are so loose as to cause the valves not to open enough or at all, you'd surely hear it long before the a/f would be way out of whack.

On the scanner you're not watching for a/f ratio exactly, it's more like watching the PCM fuel trim values. It can be off for more reasons than just valve adjustment.

The only way to know for sure is to pull it apart and check it.

There should be no need to recheck the clearances as long as they've been done right in the first place. And if the machine work was done right as well.

When you overrevved your car, besides trashing valves, you could have damaged a piston and/or bent a connecting rod. The valves will only bend so much before either breaking off and imbedding themselves into the piston or going through it. (ask anyone whos broken a t-belt on a Mitsu or Hyundai) If they don't break off, the piston/rod takes a LOT of force that it's NOT designed to take.

It doesn't take much of a bend to cause the piston to rock in just the wrong way to make noise. It also can cause the piston to drop too far down the bore and make contact with the crank or the bottom of the block. Or the bent rod can hit as well.

I see this often in domestic cars that ingest coolant when intake gaskets fail. They'll fill with coolant, the operator tries to start it, and it locks up. Upon repair of the coolant problem, the engine "ticks" or vibrates.

Does your car tick at crankshaft speed, or at half engine speed?

AV6Steve
11-20-2007, 05:29 PM
What is crankshaft speed? half engine speed? sorry man, im just not real familiar with these terms and a definition may help me to more fully answer your question.
My car ticks at idle, or thats when it is most easily heard. On a cold night, you can start up the car and drive in first or second around 1500-2000 rpm and hear the ticking inside.. If i rev up, the interval between ticks decreases..

TonyWare
11-20-2007, 06:33 PM
I could shed some light into the crankshaft speed issue. Look at the picture below. That is the spoket of the crankshaft. Notice that 2 teeth are missing.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff35/tonywareone/Picture4-4.jpg

Also in the pic below notice that black thing that wraps around it. Thats the sensor that calculates based on the position of the two missing teeth the speed of the crankshaft and feeds it to the computer.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff35/tonywareone/Picture4-5.jpg

Based on the position of the two missing teeth the computer calculates the timing and determines if all is ok or not.

So there are noises that that occur with each crankshaft revolution, that is the engine speed and noises that occur every other crankshaft revolution, which is the half-engine speed. Noises at half engine speed (every other revolution of that spocket) are the ones related to the valve train. Noises at engine speed (at every revolution of that spocket) are due to bad rods or main bearings, piston rings or piston pins.

To figure out what noises you should be listening to you need a timing light to determine, at idle, if the flash of the light and the noise match at half speed or at crakshaft speed.

Complicated test to do, and I guess you need to take off the timing belt covers to use the timing light. Perhaps a mechanic with the right tools and experience can help a lot more than the web in this matter.

However, if you don't get any codes (the engine light on), I would't worry too much about it because the sensor will tell you if the timing of the valves and the revolutions of the engine are not synchronized.

Fredsvt
11-21-2007, 02:59 PM
The crank to cam timing can be dead on and the engine still make noise, unrelated to base mechanical timing.

If the crankshaft to cam is off, and it has to be the cam with the sensor, a syncronization code will set. Many cars won't run with the crank to cam timing far off. The ignition system will not fire if that happens. Not sure on a Honda.

when you listen to your car, watch the ps pulley since it's close to crankshaft (belt) pulley size. If you want, paint a mark on the pulley that you can see while it's idling. Listen, and watch, is the clicking about in time with the mark passing a reference point OR does it take the mark TWO passes to make the same noise?

The camshafts spin at HALF crankshaft speed. You can also do this, open the little rubber plug on the forward camshaft sprocket cover. Manually turn the engine over until the white mark on the crankshaft pulley is at TDC and the mark for number 1 on the cam sprocket(it says cyl 1) lines up with the little pointer in the cover. Make that mark white, or a very bright obvious color. Start the car, point a flashlight so you can see the mark pass by. Is the clicking in speed with the passing of that mark or happening twice as fast as you see it passing by.

bbrowncods
12-02-2007, 04:10 PM
Leak-down test will tell you how each cylinder is sealing and where there is a leak, i.e. valves or rings.
As FredSVT said it is either valve train or piston/rod/crank.
From over revving I have seen:
1. Bent valves.
2. Bent rocker arms.
3. Warped cams.
4. Out of round pistons.
5. Broken ring lands.
6. Twisted crank. Not so much from hitting valves but from the deceleration of 9000 rpm's down to zero as valves are tapped, simultaneously with letting off the gas/stepping on the clutch as the flywheel unloads its momentum energy. Nasty!
7. Bent rod.
8. Mashed rod bearing.
9. Miss aligned crank bearing journals from the crank flexing like a piece of spaghetti.

I wonder why the dealer network won't touch it...

AV6Steve
12-03-2007, 07:28 PM
The dealer who did the work wont touch it because they think nothing is wrong with it. They claim its regular valvetrain noise. They did inspect and fix all parts that were damaged from the over revv, or so they say.. I am just going to ignore it and move on and if i have problems later ill either sell it or drop a J32/35 in. My car has 71000 miles on it and im just going to have fun with it now. I plan on installing the crank pulley and possibly an exhaust and cams. If i do put in the TL-S cams thats when i will have it inspected by someone and see if they can find any problems.. I appreciate all you guys information..

On another note.. Should i put any more mods on my car?? like i said there are 71000 miles on it. I do street race so the mod bug is always biting, but are these mods (pulley, exhaust, cams, clutch & flywheel) going to make a world of difference??