Engine Vibration (Do I need to worry?)

[modo]

Howdy:

A few days ago we bought a one-owner 2003 EX with 51K. During my test drive I noticed a vibration in the steering wheel/floor whenever I was at idle. When I wasn't paying attention to the other doo-dads in the car it was very noticeable even as the passenger.

The small, independent dealer assured me that all 4 cylinder engines vibrate at idle, and Hondas more than most. Totally normal, he said. My last car was a V8 and our other car is a V6 Sienna and I haven't driven a 4 cyl in 15 years so I had nothing to compare it to and I chose (perhaps unwisely given the amount of Accords to choose from) to believe him.

So, I ended up here in my subsequent research and basically what I learned on these forums and elsewhere:

1. Yes, there is likely to be some level of vibration in most 4 cyls, and especially Hondas.

2. Yes, some cars seem to have this problem much worse than others. Mine is one of em'.

3. You can try a variety of things to fix: new engine mounts, idle adjustments, etc. Some people blame transmission problems or other more exotic and expensive computer-related problems. Gulp.

4. Officially, there was a TSB from Honda that recommends replacing the front engine mounts due to insufficient engine dampening.

5. This does not always fix the problem -- many people report getting them replaced to no avail.

Alas, the one question I have not found an answer to and the reason for this lengthy post:

Is this engine vibration something that has or will cause long-term damage that NEEDS to be fixed, or is it merely an annoyance?

I don't want my otherwise sweet car sounding like a diesel engine at idle. But if it's not hurting anything I will wait until warmer weather (currently in the 0-20 range around here) to see if it is as bad. The car came with a 3/36mo warranty from a third-party warranty company, but my experience with the auto industry is that they will tell me to go jump in a lake if I tell them that my car is "vibrating" lol and I want them to replace the engine mounts.

Thanks for any advice . . . great forum.

[andysinnh]

The long and short of it? Don't worry, be happy. :banana:

Seriously, though - if the vibration you're describing is just the small rumble you get at idle, that tends to worsen while in D or R, and a bit more noticible with the A/C on, then it's something we've discussed here before, and it doesn't pose any issues long-term. My '05 LX has done it since new - and it's the same now at 29k miles as it was on day 1. After a while, you'll notice it less and less.

andy

[modo]

Seriously, though - if the vibration you're describing is just the small rumble you get at idle

That's the thing: it depends on how you describe a "small rumble." Coming from a silky smooth V8 it sure seems like more than a small rumble to me but maybe it is normal:

- it only happens at idle

- the steering wheel has a noticable vibration, you can almost see it moving and when you touch it is like using one of those small hand massager's

- there is a clearly audible sound, sort of a low, continuous grumble similar to the small engine diesels I've been it . . . bgggg-ggg-ggg-ggg-gggg-gggg-ggg.

It would shock me if the car came off the lot like this in 2003 because nobody would buy it -- it sounds too much like "something is up" even if it isn't. Hence my concern. Other than the rumble at idle, the car drives like an absolute dream at all speeds and feels/looks like it just came off the new car lot.

I can live with it if it isn't the symptom of some larger problem, or a sign of bad things to come . . .


ETA: In retrospect I should have drive more 4 cyl Hondas to compare . . . in reality I'm a busy father of two young girls who was at a dealer 40 miles from home with a check burning a hole in my pocket and a dead Ford Exploder at home.

[andysinnh]

That's the thing: it depends on how you describe a "small rumble." Coming from a silky smooth V8 it sure seems like more than a small rumble to me but maybe it is normal:

- it only happens at idle

- the steering wheel has a noticable vibration, you can almost see it moving and when you touch it is like using one of those small hand massager's

- there is a clearly audible sound, sort of a low, continuous grumble similar to the small engine diesels I've been it . . . bgggg-ggg-ggg-ggg-gggg-gggg-ggg.

It would shock me if the car came off the lot like this in 2003 because nobody would buy it -- it sounds too much like "something is up" even if it isn't. Hence my concern. Other than the rumble at idle, the car drives like an absolute dream at all speeds and feels/looks like it just came off the new car lot.

I can live with it if it isn't the symptom of some larger problem, or a sign of bad things to come . . .


ETA: In retrospect I should have drive more 4 cyl Hondas to compare . . . in reality I'm a busy father of two young girls who was at a dealer 40 miles from home with a check burning a hole in my pocket and a dead Ford Exploder at home.

Your description is pretty close to what most of us have felt, although some are more noticible than others. The best thing to do would be to find an '07 or earlier on a dealer lot and see how that feels. The '08 has a slightly reworked version of the same motor, so may have a different feel altogether. The '03-07 are pretty much the same. I went from a GM V6 which you couldn't feel run AT ALL to this I4, and had concerns until I felt 3 others do similar things - including the same motor in the Element I drove. Personally I think you're OK, but to give you peace of mind, I'd passively drop by any dealer and start up another random one and see how it compares....

andy

[RTexasF]

It's worth running one large bottle (treats 20 gallons) of Chevron Techrolene through it for a little injector cleaning.

Andy is correct about the idle characteristics and to some it's a little unnerving. Since mine is a stick shift I have never felt a rough idle because it's in neutral & clutch out at a stop light. When the A/C compressor kicks in there is some harshness and a little accompanying noise. Is your A/C or defroster on when you hear the noise?

Does it change (at idle in gear) when the A/C compressor is turned off & on?

[modo]

Thanks for the advice guys, had never heard of that additive and good to know that I probably don't have anything to worry about.

If anyone is still reading this, have YOU had your front engine mounts replaced as recommended by the TSB and did it help?

The TSB recommends it for "excessive noise and vibration" and even without trying out other cars I'm 99% sure mine falls into that category. I've been in plenty of Accords as a passenger/guest driver over the years and would remember if any of them sounded or felt similar. The only car that comes close to it is a VW GTI diesel that my sister used to own.

My conundrum is that my dealer/warranty provider already insists that this is completely normal, and thus will likely resist any efforts to do the work even if I provide the TSB. The warranty is provided by Guardian Warranty Corp. -- they are not fly-by-night but they do have a long history of fighting legit claims and bad customer service. (It was included in the price of my car, which was lower than similar cars with no warranty and higher miles so I figure anything I get out of it is better than nothing.)

Roughly how much does it cost to replace and/or adjust the mounts anyhow?

[Bowzer]

I agree with the notion of driving other like cars. If you have a Carmax nearby, that can provide a few quick examples, too. I'm so accustomed to the vibration that I have to drive something else for a while before I even take note about it. All 4 of my Honda 4 bangers had some version of the slight vibration.

WHen I do take note of it, a ride that took place with my Grandfather in my first Honda comes to mind from years back. He loved my "little hatchback" and on the first ride as we idled fr a streetlight to change, he looked over and said "Purrs doesn't it?". Somehow that helps me anyway.

EDIT: Just saw your last post: I never had the need for the mount re-do. If you feel it's excessive, go ahead and push with the TSB and list the fact you've been in other Honda's already...maybe not as many as the service guy(s)...but this is your car after all and it doesn't feel like the others you've been in.

[cajun]

"It would shock me if the car came off the lot like this in 2003 because nobody would buy it..."

Good point. A bouncing steering wheel at idle is not normal. I would take it today to a Honda dealer or a good import garage and let them see it. Didn't the used car place give you a 30 or so day warranty? If so, and even if they didn't, you might convince them that there is a problem if you have an estimate from a Honda dealer. FWIW my 2002/4cyl/auto with 56K miles doesn't vibrate like you describe. I test drove an older 4cyl Volvo a few months ago that vibrated hard at idle, but it had obviously worn engine mounts and a backfire.

[modo]

Didn't the used car place give you a 30 or so day warranty?

Yep, in fact it is a 36mo/38K extended warranty from GWC. The problem is the small, indy dealer who sold it to me already thinks it is normal and sold it to me as such. So I may have a hard time convincing him but hopefully the TSB will help. There were no other Honda's on his lot to compare but he claims he goes through a ton of them and they all vibrate. In fact, when I pressed the issue during the sale/test drive he related a tale about another customer who kept insisting the same thing and said he finally made her get in three different Hondas to prove it to her. He was convincing enought that I bought the car, but it also means he is predisposed to thinking this is not a problem.

I think my plan is to find a good local mechanic who works on a lot of Hondas and have them take a look. I'll bring the TSB and if they think it is issue I'll get an estimate and then push it with the dealer . . .

[andysinnh]

If anyone is still reading this, have YOU had your front engine mounts replaced as recommended by the TSB and did it help?

If I remember correctly, the TSB replaced the front motor mount, and 2 of the bushings holding the radiator in place. I also think it applied to the '03 and some '04 models only - I know that my '05 didn't "qualify". Whether the TSB fixed the problem seemed to varied depending on the person. If it really was a mount issue, and the vibration was "more than normal", then it likely fixed it. But for those with "normal" vibration level, it did nothing to help it out. Again, "normal" is something you'd have to figure out for yourself by comparing with others.

In terms of the steering wheel visibly vibrating - I actually could see that "shake" in the worst of vibrations when mine was new - and others did it as well. But it's not like shaking up 1/2" then down 1/2" - but rather the shake to the level that you'd get ripples in a water bottle. It can be unnerving since you're expecting complete isolation from the motor itself, but with a 4cyl of this 2.4L size, the idle is what suffers. In my case, once you brought the RPM's up above idle level, even only 100 rpm above, it became smooth as silk. That's how I knew it was just the nature of the beast...

andy

[modo]

In my case, once you brought the RPM's up above idle level, even only 100 rpm above, it became smooth as silk. That's how I knew it was just the nature of the beast...

andy

Thanks, and yes, I notice the same thing. If it won't harm anything else, I'm more than willing to up my baseline idle at the expense of some gas mileage if it will lessen my rattle . . .

[Edaccord08]

You have to be careful when describing vibration issues as I have not driven a singl;e 4 cylinder that I couldn't feel "slight" vibration through wheel. This is totally normalwith a auto at idle. when in neutral or slightly above it should disapate to nothing.

Also a passanger shouldn't really feel this without touching wheel, stick or other part of frame.

in general small 4 cylinder (under 2L) are smoother on avg cause of less mass and small stoke, this is were engines like honda 2.4L and may others use balance shafts to smooth out these large 4 cylinders.

You really should only feel slight vibration in wheel, brake pedal, the frame should be pretty smooth. It sounds like your just not familiar with 4 cylinders.

[modo]

This is totally normalwith a auto at idle. when in neutral or slightly above it should disapate to nothing.

Hmmm. Not the case here. It is pretty much the same in N or D, and just slightly less in R.


Also a passanger shouldn't really feel this without touching wheel, stick or other part of frame.


I can't recall if I could feel it, but I rode in the car before driving it and the first question I had out of the lot was "what is that noise?" -- it is very audible even from the passenger seat.


It sounds like your just not familiar with 4 cylinders.


Well, yeah, that's why I'm here :) I've tried to be clear describing the nature and intensity of the vibration but it's obvious I need to (a) try out a few more to compare and (b) have it checked out. I do appreciate all of the advice, as I said in my op great forum.

[Edaccord08]

Hmmm. Not the case here. It is pretty much the same in N or D, and just slightly less in R.



I can't recall if I could feel it, but I rode in the car before driving it and the first question I had out of the lot was "what is that noise?" -- it is very audible even from the passenger seat.



Well, yeah, that's why I'm here :) I've tried to be clear describing the nature and intensity of the vibration but it's obvious I need to (a) try out a few more to compare and (b) have it checked out. I do appreciate all of the advice, as I said in my op great forum.

I see what I was trying to say is its very subjective, without being with you in the car to actually feel,hear and see same thing.

Generally the engine will run slightly smoother without load on it, it shouldn't make any noticeable vibration noise.
Its hard to say if there is a issue, maybe best to get a drive in similar model/yr if possible.

It either sounds like your not used to driving 4 cylinders or there is slight issue, thats the problem with Internet it is very hard to show degree of things.

[Bowzer]

If it's not smoothing out with a slight bump in rpms, you feel it in Neutral, and it seems that audible...all internet limitations implied here...you may have a bit of an issue.

Like you said, drive some others. When I had an engine mount go bad albeit on a different vehicle completely, much of what you describe were the symptoms.

[RTexasF]

Bowzer and others have a damn good point here. Only YOU can say if this is out of line or not. Go with your gut.......there are other dealers than the one you bought it from, which sounded to me like a used car dealer not a Honda dealer. If it's enough of a problem that you feel there is a need to pursue it then do so. After reading and re-reading your posts it's possible that the rough idle is more than the norm and requires that something be done/corrected.

I still think this is worth a shot though, enough for 20 gallons not 12. Pep Boys, Wal-Mart, Auto Parts stores all have it. Can't find the 20 gallon size? Buy two 12 gallon treatments and use 2/3 of the second bottle. Put the final 1/3 in your next tank. It cannot harm and has cured idle problems for me before in other vehicles.

[andysinnh]

I still think this is worth a shot though, enough for 20 gallons not 12. Pep Boys, Wal-Mart, Auto Parts stores all have it. Can't find the 20 gallon size? Buy two 12 gallon treatments and use 2/3 of the second bottle. Put the final 1/3 in your next tank. It cannot harm and has cured idle problems for me before in other vehicles.
I'll support my birthday bud here and also recommend Techron to remove any carbon buildup, and remove that from the list of possible issues. Add it when you're filling the tank, and then run the tank as low as you feel comfortable to get the most cleaning for your buck(s). And then fill up at that point and enjoy. :yes: But be aware that the tank you're running with the techron in the gas may be ROUGHER than normal, since it's burning out any buildup on the valves, etc. The first tank AFTER the Techron treatment will start showing improvement, if buildup was the issue.

andy

[mdnky]

You could try taking the car to a dealer (call first) and see if they offer safety inspections. Some dealers will do this for free, where they go around the car and look for potential problem areas. Not sure if Honda does it, but most Volvo dealers will. Its a cheap way to promote service sales and it takes very little time for them. Some I've seen (a Chevy dealer, a Toyota dealer) charge a minor fee of $10 to $25. Or take it to the mechanic you trust if you have one.

Ask them if it feels rough to them. If you ask that at Honda, chances are you'll be asking someone who has been in many of these cars. If they say its normal, it probably is.


To be honest with you, and based on your description, it sounds normal. I've driven and ridden in quite a few Hondas over the years and all have had some kind of vibration, though its what I would call very faint on most. Even my new one (43xx miles now) has some at idle in neutral. It's more noticable when cold, but there's always a bit there regardless.

They're (Hondas) great cars, but they're not luxary cars. They're built to be dependable and practical first and foremost. A little vibration isn't a major concern with those features in mind. Even some high-end BMWs I've driven have had minor vibrations (though those were usually M models and most had an I-6 engine.)

BTW...if you really want to clean out the injection system, have it professionally done. The stuff you buy at the autoparts store is pretty lame compared to what most shops use. I know Sears does it for about $60 to $70 on most vehicles and I'm sure others are similarly priced.

[modo]

It's more noticable when cold

The cold is the other big variable. I mentioned previously that it is around 10 degrees here and may get down to 10 below this weekend. And you're not the first who has mentioned that it gets worse in the cold. Next week I'm going to try to find a good near-by mechanic who works on a lot of Accords and see what they say. Then off to a dealer if I still have concerns.

Frankly, my larger concern right now is that I love this car so much that I'm already working out a plan for moving up to an 07/08. :) My wife and I set a budget of 13K for a second car to replace my Ford Exploder (main car is an 07 Sienna) and picked up the Accord for exactly $13K including the aforementioned warranty. We paid cash, but now that I see how cheap you can pick up an 07 I'm starting to wish we had financed a bit in order to get a brand new one off the lot.

It really is a great car, fun to drive, excellent interior, good gas mileage, historically as reliable as it gets, and very well priced. I love the Passat, some of the Saabs and Audis, but no other car in the class seems to come even close when you combine all the factors. I doubt it is the greatest in any single area but combined, what a car.

[samsonskeg]

I had the exact same problem when I had the 03 accord. I was told by the mechanic that it needed new engine mounts.

[jp422]

Modo, did you ever get the vibration resolved? I bought my '03 Accord EX-L i4/Auto used too... it had about 31k miles. Everything was fine, but as we got closer to 50k miles, the vibration got worse. It was bad enough where I can see the steering wheel vibrate, in fact, the whole cabin vibrated. This was bad considering everything else on the car was perfect. This would happen consistently and ONLY when I was in gear... forward or reverse, and stopped, at idle (holding brake pedal). A/C probably made it shake a little bit more (typical for 4cyl) but it was unnoticeable because the initial vibration was so bad. My only method to avoid this was to shift to N, at every stop. Then the car would smooth out... and the engine would idle perfectly with NO vibration. So smooth, I had to look at the tachometer to make sure the engine was still running.

Here's what I did:

-At 50K, I replaced spark plugs (Denso Iridium IK20). I don't believe in 100k spark plugs. Sure they CAN last long, but the performance drops, and the gap does get bigger. Just my personal preference. *Also hoping the car would get smoother... =P

-At 50K, changed ATF fluid. Just drain and fill. This made the transmission shift super smooth, very nice improvement, but did not help when at idle w/ brakes on (in gear).

-At 50K, tried grounding the engine more (using 8gauge amps wires). Grounded the battery to the cyl head (2 locations, hopefully for more ground going to spark plugs), alternator, IM, and engine block (at least the sensors might get cleaner (-) ground now, which I hoped would smooth engine a bit... but nope, didn't help the vibration.

-Finally, thanks to these forums, I approached the dealer with the TSB info, and told them this symptom is EXACTLY what I have, and my car falls in the VIN range. It took some persuasion, but eventually, HONDA America OK'd me a "good will" repair and installed the new engine mounts (TSB). The dealer did mention that this MIGHT help, but it might not... I understood. Anyway, I was lucky. The fix was perfect! The car now idles at a stop, in gear, and it's SO smooth... it's like a new car! If you really try to notice, then yea, it has a very slight... VERY slight vibration because it's a 4cyl, but overall, you wont even notice it unless you try. It's like white noise.

I was thinkin about selling the Accord and get a '01 Audi S4 avant... but damn... I love the Accord again! It just does everything well!

[03LXV6]

There is a way to check the front engine mount to see if it is operating properly. There is a vacuum line going to the mount from the intake manifold. At below 1000 rpms the vacuum line opens up a diaphragm in the mount to give it more dampening. You can check to see if the line is clogged or disconnect the line. The vibration should changed noticeably when the line is disconnected. If there is no change then the mount is bad.

I just had to replace my front mount because it was broken.

[daavo]

There's one other thing that hasn't been mentioned yet .... check your oil. And, also, change your oil.

I'm on my 2nd 7th gen Accord and I've noticed on both cars that the K24 gets noticaebly rougher after about 3500 miles on regular oil that they use at the dealerships etc..

I go to Wal Mart and buy the 5 quart jug of either Mobile 1 or Pennzoil Platinum and take it to a local oil change place that I trust. Total cost is about $40.

Edit... just realized this threads a little moldy ... but it's still some good advice. :wave:

[biscuit]

I have a 2003 EX-L I4 that vibrated a lot when the AC was on, especially in drive. I took it to the dealer at least twice under warranty and they said that "they all do that." At least two visits showed the "check engine vibration with AC on in drive" on the service ticket.

Fast forward to 2008 when I found out about TSB 04-024. Took it to the dealer, they refused to do the TSB and said that it "wouldn't help" and "the District Manager compared it to 3 other 7th gen Accords and determined that it was normal." Called American Honda, they reviewed it for a week and refused to do the TSB.

So I took it back to the dealer and asked the service manager to show me another car that vibrated as bad as mine. He brought one out, and it didn't vibrate as bad. He agreed to do the TSB for free.

My car idles MUCH smoother now. It was a hassle, but if you have a 2003 or early 2004 you should fight for the dealer to install TSB 04-024.

[pahns51]

I have a 06 sedan and do not have the vibration described by our poster. Yes I feel a slight vibration when the AC cycles but thats it. Since this car is a 03 my recomendation would be to push Honda for a good will fix.