SAE Paper on OEM Automatic Transmission Fluids and Universal ATFs

[The Critic]

Two automotive engineers from GM have published a paper with the SAE outlining the performance differences between the various OEM fluid specifications. After their study, they have concluded that the fluids are very unique to their recommended application. The idea of a single fluid that performs well in every application is impossible due to the huge differences between the various fluid specifications. So for those of you who use universal fluids such as Amsoil, please keep that in mind.

Also, while engineers from GM published this paper, SAE papers are unbiased. They have to go through a peer review process before they are published. If the paper is found to have a slant, it would be criticized and would not be published.

I'll be receiving my copy of the paper soon, but here are some excepts and a link to purchase the paper:

As a result of raised awareness regarding the proliferation of individual OEM-recommended ATFs, and discussion in various forums regarding the possibility of "universal" service fill fluids, it was decided to study how divergent individual OEM requirements actually are by comparing the fluids performance in industry standard tests.

A bench-mark study was carried out to compare the performance of various OEM automatic transmission fluids in selected industry standard tests. All of the fluids evaluated in the study are used by certain OEMs for both factory and service fill. The areas evaluated included friction durability, oxidation resistance, viscosity stability, aeration and foam control. The results of this study are discussed in this paper. Based on the results, one can conclude that each ATF is uniquely formulated to specific OEM requirements. In addition, the results show that a customer should not deviate from the automatic transmission fluid specified in the vehicle's owners manual.

http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2007-01-3987

[LXaccord]

I won't use anything but Honda ATF in a Honda!!!

[mwmcginn]

Likewise. I have a jug of chrysler fluid for the chrysler, and need to get some for the accord when I do the drain and fill.

[LXaccord]

Honda ATF is EXPENSIVE!!! I think it's sent over here on small privately owned pleasure boats or something!! lol

Case of 12 quarts here (Houston), according to dealer parts dept., wholesale rate, is 96 + tax That's still 8/quart

What is the best price anyone has seen for it?

[giltibo]

...maybe the fluid is expensive, but how many times do you change the trans fluid in the life of the car?

[The Critic]

Honda ATF is EXPENSIVE!!! I think it's sent over here on small privately owned pleasure boats or something!! lol

Case of 12 quarts here (Houston), according to dealer parts dept., wholesale rate, is 96 + tax That's still 8/quart

What is the best price anyone has seen for it?

Around 6.50/qt + tax.

[benjamming]

So, Critic, what would you (or the other guy) recommend for Hondas? The Z1 fluid is pathetic.

[The Critic]

So, Critic, what would you (or the other guy) recommend for Hondas? The Z1 fluid is pathetic.

Not sure. :naughty:

[The Critic]

So, Critic, what would you (or the other guy) recommend for Hondas? The Z1 fluid is pathetic.

Just received the paper in the mail right now, very interesting.

[abailey4]

I've heard Amsoil is really good too and it's only $15 more than Honda for 12qts depending on where you order.

[The Critic]

I've heard Amsoil is really good too and it's only $15 more than Honda for 12qts depending on where you order.

I wouldn't use it though as we don't know how it truly behaves in Honda automatics.

[abailey4]

All I know about it is a good amount of guys on acurazine swear by it.

[odessit]

I just got 05 Accord LX with 31K and unknown usage history. I am debating on a good fluid. Z1 VOA and UOA on BITOG shows that Z1 has quite poor characteristics compared to other ATF.

On other hand, all Honda techs recommend Z1 and there is SAE ATF paper describing dangers of using "universal" fluids...

abailey4 - can you point me to some posts about usage of Amsoil ATF in Honda/Acura?

[The Critic]

I just got 05 Accord LX with 31K and unknown usage history. I am debating on a good fluid. Z1 VOA and UOA on BITOG shows that Z1 has quite poor characteristics compared to other ATF.

On other hand, all Honda techs recommend Z1 and there is SAE ATF paper describing dangers of using "universal" fluids...

abailey4 - can you point me to some posts about usage of Amsoil ATF in Honda/Acura?

According to the data, Z1 is a fairly "soft" fluid and has very odd frictional characteristics compared to most fluids. It does have poor oxidation, shear stability and load capabilities. Because of the odd frictional properties, no one knows why Honda designed the frictional properties that way. I'm unsure of the long-term effects of using an universal fluid with more "normal" frictional properties.

At 31k, there's no need to change the fluid yet. Wait until 60k, minimum. Right now, just replace the items that are due, which are the engine oil/filter, engine air filter, cabin air filter and brake fluid flush.

[odessit]

did all of it 2 days ago, brake fluid is for warmer weather (it is on a dark side, but not horrible).
What makes me a bit paranoid - tranny has "strange" downshifts when slowing down, but maybe it is normal for 7th gen. Also, this car has/had some "ricer" items ("performance" radiator cup - LOL, Honda sticker). There is a possibility that this car was abused a bit...

[The Critic]

did all of it 2 days ago, brake fluid is for warmer weather (it is on a dark side, but not horrible).
What makes me a bit paranoid - tranny has "strange" downshifts when slowing down, but maybe it is normal for 7th gen. Also, this car has/had some "ricer" items ("performance" radiator cup - LOL, Honda sticker). There is a possibility that this car was abused a bit...

Performance Radiator Cap. :lmao:

Downshifts during slow down are quite normal. BTW, fluid color and odor isn't that relevant with ATFs anymore as the fluid suspend the clutch materials, so the fluid will discolor fairly quickly.

[turBeau]

...maybe the fluid is expensive, but how many times do you change the trans fluid in the life of the car?

You should change it often if you're using Z1. I wouldn't take it more than 15k after seeing the results on BITOG. I'll be on my 3rd fluid change soon and I'm only sittin' @ 20k. I'll be doing my 2nd filter and 3rd fluid change next week and after that it'll be every 30k for both. I'm using Castrol Import ATF and like the way it shifts.

[The Critic]

You should change it often if you're using Z1. I wouldn't take it more than 15k after seeing the results on BITOG. I'll be on my 3rd fluid change soon and I'm only sittin' @ 20k. I'll be doing my 2nd filter and 3rd fluid change next week and after that it'll be every 30k for both. I'm using Castrol Import ATF and like the way it shifts.

There's no need to change it that soon, even with Z1.

Most people do not understand how to properly interpret the UOA results on BITOG. Besides, you need multiple samples to obtain accurate info.

[abailey4]

Sorry I dont have a thread to point you too. My cousin has a TL so he always tells me about different threads. He's gettin his SC put it so he was researching ATF for a while and that's what the guys over there advised him to use from what he told me.

[turBeau]

There's no need to change it that soon, even with Z1.

Most people do not understand how to properly interpret the UOA results on BITOG. Besides, you need multiple samples to obtain accurate info.

Not one to start anything, but are you sure you know how to interpret UOA's? Results are results. BITOG shows factual results of how weak the OEM ATF-Z1 really is. You come of as a pretty smart guy, I figured you'd never used Z1 based on the results.

[odessit]

turBeau
Here's one
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1085841
If anything it shows how horrible Amsoil ATF is against Z1 :thumbsdown: Although it is only single tranny which could have a mechanical issue.

Another one shows Z1 only results...
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1031556

Does it show that the transmission is crap? The fluid(s)? Both? We (I) just don't know how to read UOAs and what is acceptable wear for an AT?
But on other hand - how can so many Hondas last 100K+ miles on original fill?

This is why I am on the fence regarding ATF, but by the looks of it, I'll go with Z1 until there is a clear proof otherwise.
(BTW it was around 10F - tranny shifts horrible 2-3-4 until warmed-up when compared to my other cars, really don't know what to think of it)

[The Critic]

Not one to start anything, but are you sure you know how to interpret UOA's? Results are results. BITOG shows factual results of how weak the OEM ATF-Z1 really is. You come of as a pretty smart guy, I figured you'd never used Z1 based on the results.

Very few BITOG members are qualified to properly interpret UOAs, and I'm not one of them. Blackstone labs is no exception, as their comments ought to be for entertainment only. Many members on BITOG become needlessly alarmed over the high wear metal count and viscosity loss in an ATF UOA.

I've actually shown one of the UOAs that odessit linked to to an automatic transmission fluid engineer at a major automaker (not Honda). He told me that the results looked normal and the Honda Z1 performed just fine. You are going to see more wear metals in an ATF analysis report than in an engine oil one. The viscosity loss is also normal and the SAE paper actually documents this. The oil flim is very important and this is sometimes independent of the oil viscosity.

[LXaccord]

As stated previously, I use only Honda ATF, but after just recently rebuilding my entire transmission, I also will not use any additives ever again. This not only goes for the transmission but also things like the oil and coolant too. They are a waste of your money and give false hopes at best and can make things worse!!

When the A/T clutch pack decides it has had enough of the load or your foot, the car will start slipping (flaring) when this starts, it is over-- rebuild or replace the transmission. If you DIY expect to pay under 1000 (torque converter, transmission banner kit, diff bearing, main seal, new CV's) If you take it to a transmission shop, expect 2200-3000.

I would not buy a junk yard transmission, although the price maybe attractive at 350-500, unless you do the pull of it out of the donor car, you really have no idea how many miles are on it. The junk yard dogs all say their transmissions have 35-45k :lmao:

[benjamming]

odessit,

Your first link is to my UOA. As Critic said, probably only a dozen active members at BITOG would be qualified to interpret a UOA of any kind. I would imagine that ATF is the most advanced fluid in your vehicle. I have paid Terry Dyson to properly interpret my UOAs.

You also have to be very careful with ATF UOAs in the 6th generation due to crappy transmission design.

The Z1 fluid is pathetic (film strength, oxidation, etc.) as posted on BITOG by someone who works with transmission fluid design. However, is it good enough? That is a judgement call.

Critic,

Was it my UOA or anneis' that you showed to WW?

LXAccord,

I would agree on the additives comment for the most part. There are some additives that function well but not many.

[Honda High]

Honda ATF is EXPENSIVE!!! I think it's sent over here on small privately owned pleasure boats or something!! lol

Case of 12 quarts here (Houston), according to dealer parts dept., wholesale rate, is 96 + tax That's still 8/quart

What is the best price anyone has seen for it?

I buy mine online from H&Aaccesories .com for $5.69 plus shipping. I also get my air and pollen filters, shin-etsu grease and wipers from them. Shipping isn't that bad depending on what else you order. I think last time I ordered it cost me $6.03 per quart and no tax.They are a Honda Dealer, very prompt and reliable.

Good luck...

[Bruce Hawkins]

I have a 6 Gen. I change myn every 15K, using Z1.
Do you all think this is good enuff?

[The Critic]

Any new opinions on the paper? :banana: