Many of the gas stations here in South Florida are converting to gas with 10% Ethanol. I read an article last week in the Miami Herald that they all must convert within the next few years and that only vehicles manufactured in the mid 1980's and before need to be concerned. What are your thoughts on using Ethanol in the Accords :scratch:

it will be fine, with maybe a decrease of 1 mpg....maybe

we have the same blend down here and where i goto school vs home, school doesnt have the 10% yet and it runs just the same as it does with it.

There's already another thread that discusses this topic extensively.

There's already another thread that discusses this topic extensively.

If you are referring to the "What Gas Station do you use?" thread, I saw no mention of this topic in there.

It's under the "With gas at $3.50, I'm glad I've got my I-4" Tread and the "Costco Gas" Treads. They also discuss premium vs regular.

This is a different discussion though! Using lower grade gas and adding 10% ethanol to raise the octane is not "premium" gas.

How does it pose a problem to pre-1980's cars? that is really a big problem and I would be shocked if it is required, yet harmful.

I hate ethanol. I've done experiments with my truck and 10% ethanol decreases my mileage by 10%. I don't get gas at those stations anymore.

I hate ethanol. I've done experiments with my truck and 10% ethanol decreases my mileage by 10%. I don't get gas at those stations anymore.


.........how do we differentiate between who's selling what? That is: 'are we able to pick a station that does NOT sell a gasoline/ethanol mix?'................

(I'm in CA, BTW..............AKA ' the left coast')

best, ez....

I'm not sure you have that option EZ. In New Mexico and Texas they are required to have a sticker on the pump letting you know it has 10% or less ethanol.

I'm not sure if it yields worse mileage in the Accord or not, but it really changes the 5.7L.

I'm not sure you have that option EZ. In New Mexico and Texas they are required to have a sticker on the pump letting you know it has 10% or less ethanol.

I'm not sure if it yields worse mileage in the Accord or not, but it really changes the 5.7L.


...thanks, Lieut........

...my 6M gets 26.5 vice 27.5 around the capital as of late.........it's probably the addition of that corn likker stuff.

best, ez....

the difference is real.

It can be felt and measured and is not negligible.

There was an article in the local paper about this exact topic ... I wish I could find an online version of it...

I find it idiotic to support ethanol production... its cost the same, if not more to make ethanol and is not a solution to our dependency on foreign oil (if you haven't noticed, rates on tangible items have raised as well due to oil cost BUT also due to corn, grain, etc prices going up ... less corn for consumption because it's needed/more profitable when used for subsidized ethanol production)

Hopefully here in Indiana the choice for 10% or not will be available for quite some time...or heck, allow 87 to have it, but never touch 89,91,93 (I know, not feasible)

In the article, they states 87 gasoline vs 10% ethanol blend of 87 was on the avg a 3% difference in MPG with larger engines seeing more of a difference ie. V8 truck was getting 18mpg, goes down to 15mpg ...

It is a well-known fact that pure Ethanol is a third less efficient than gasoline. Pure Ethanol can deliver 76,100 BTUs per gallon while pure Gasoline delivers around 114,100 BTUs per gallon.
Adding Ethanol to your gas will not add more power, it will lessen the amount of BTUs and therefore lessen your gas-mileage.
So pure gasoline delivers more MPG than gasoline with 10% ethanol.


Source(s)
http://www.nafa.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Resource_Center/Alternative_Fuels/Energy_Equivalents/Energy_Equivalents.htm

Nice find and thanks for the proof to back my claims of worse mileage! :)

Let’s see, ethanol corn based (For now)

Mandated & subsidized by the federal government
Farmers reduce producing grains soybeans etc.
All bread type products increase by 50% (World food prices are also spiking)
Farmers sell more corn to ethanol producers so feed prices double
Meat prices double
Fuel mileage decreases an average of 3-5%

Ethanol, it’s not just another government blunder

isn't gas with 10% ethanol is referred to as winter gas? that decreases mileage notably.

It's standard year round fuel in many states.

It's standard year round fuel in many states.
Yep, exactly. Here in the Philly area it is next to impossible finding a gas station that is not using an ethanol blend. In Harrisburg it was not as prevalent when I lived there, but I am sure it is now. In fact, it may even be state mandated at this point.

With all of the negatives of ethanol don't forget about the positive effect it has on air quality, though, which is definitely a good thing for us all.

With all of the negatives of ethanol don't forget about the positive effect it has on air quality, though, which is definitely a good thing for us all.

Which is???? Please elaborate!

To meet air quality standards the gasoline must be oxygenated to some extent or another. This facilitates cleaner burning and hence fewer emissions. See my post elsewhere in which certain unscrupulous types have been know to drain their tanks, fill up with methanol, and sail through any emissions inspection because it's so clean. Only gets about 3 mpg though. In general, the higher the ratio of oxygen to carbon in the oxygenating molecule, the lower the energy content per gallon and the worse the effect on mpg. That's why MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl ether) was everyone's favorite fuel additive for about twenty years - cleaner burning, octane boosting, and cheap. Except that it produced more formaldehyde as a combustion byproduct - toxic and a probably human carcinogen, and MTBE tended to contaminate and persist in ground water. So out it went in the middle of this decade, practically overnight, and oil companies had to scramble to find a substitute.

I too have seen my Hess stations put the dreaded sticker on the pump and I'm now tracking the mileage to see if it still justifies the 5% credit card discount. Otherwise, back to Mobil and Sunoco - for as long as it lasts. I'm on Tank #2 and I will report back.

I'm not sure you have that option EZ. In New Mexico and Texas they are required to have a sticker on the pump letting you know it has 10% or less ethanol.


I started this thread when I noticed the sticker on the pump during my last fillup here in Florida, (I think it's required.) The majority of stations don't have it yet, but the article I read said that most would soon and it mentioned that all "classic car" owners must avoid it and are pissed. After reading all these replies, I'll avoid it as long as I can. I also agree completely with those who accurately pointed out what a complete gov't. "boondoggle" the whole Ethanol thing really is! :screwy:

i recently went to fill up at the chevron station by my house and received a huge shock when i saw those 10% ethanol stickers plastered all over the pump.

this really surprised me because i have never ever seen an ethanol sticker in the nearly 2 years that i have lived here at this gas station. every other station i have been to, except for hess, does not have this sticker at their pump. i ended up only putting in 20 bucks since i needed only about half a tank for the week for work commuting only.

it seems that if this trend continues, every gas station will be using e10 in their gas. i read somewhere that using the e10 is a way to save the cost of gas for the station, but i guess us consumers never see that discount. gas will reach $4 a gallon down here by summer as many news sources have predicted, but it will eventually peak at some point before it goes back down. so far, all i see are rising prices every day so lets see how high gas can get before it goes down.

If one station in your area posts the 10% sticker then they all will have it. It comes through the same pipe.

At Sheetz, we have "May contain up to 10% Ethanol" on our pumps. :rolleyes:

The Wal*Mart says they do have 10% Ethanol, and I believe that because my mileage does down with that stuff.

I guess I'm going to try the Sunoco. I don't know if they have Ethanol or not. Hopefully they don't yet.

This article reproduced from this morning's Albany, NY Times Union. Disclaimer: The NYS Energy Research and Development Authority is my employer's landlord, and I will state my opinion that they are very sound technically. That said, I found a few comments in here to be somewhat interesting. Still on Tank 3 of the post-ethanol posting at the local Hess station. I want a five tank average before I say anything one way or the other.


Before blaming reduced mileage on ethanol, check the basics


First published: Monday, May 5, 2008

Q: Many local gas stations now post notification that their gas contains up to 10 percent ethanol.

At the same time, we have noticed a 10 to 15 percent reduction in gas mileage in both of the cars we drive. We have a minivan and a sedan. We fill one with regular gas and one with high-octane. I wonder if others out there are seeing similar effects.

-- Eric Eisenbraun, Delmar

A: It's possible that there's some connection, but energy experts recommend that you explore a number of other potential contributors to your reduced mileage before blaming it all on the ethanol.

According to the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority, ethanol generates about 30 percent less energy per gallon than gasoline. That translates into about 3 percent less energy -- or a 3 percent fuel economy "penalty" -- when you use a 90 percent gasoline/10 percent ethanol blend.

"For most vehicles, this should mean less than 1 mile per gallon difference, typically something you would not notice," according to the response prepared by NYSERDA's ethanol gurus and relayed to us by agency spokeswoman Colleen Ryan.

Many common driving habits and consequences of an aging vehicle could have a more significant impact on your gas mileage, say the folks at NYSERDA and at Environmental Advocates of New York.

Fast starts, increased city driving, decreased tire pressure and dirty air filters are just a few of the variables that can affect your mileage.

"The fuel economy issue may have nothing to do with the ethanol, but could be an issue only noticed once the driver begins to use ethanol," said NYSERDA's experts, who suggested contacting the service department at local car dealerships.

"Many vehicle manufacturers have the ability to tune your car to operate better on 10 percent ethanol, thereby reducing any fuel economy penalty," they noted.

You could try keeping closer track of how your vehicles perform when you fill up at stations with and without the 10 percent ethanol notifications and calculate some comparisons over a longer period of time. But Jackson Morris, an air and energy program associate with Energy Advocates, says any conclusions you might draw would be dicey.

"Because pumps may contain up to 10 percent ethanol, it's kind of a crapshoot," said Morris. "There's no way to know exactly what percentage you're getting."

You're seeing those ethanol content notifications more frequently now because federal legislation, the Energy Policy Act of 2005, mandated increased use of ethanol and other renewable fuels in the years leading up to 2012.

As a result, you also may notice more gas stations selling an 85 percent ethanol blend called E-85.

The selling points for ethanol include its cleaner-burning qualities -- it produces less of some greenhouse gasses, chiefly carbon monoxide -- and the ability to produce it domestically, theoretically reducing U.S. dependence on foreign oil.

But the feelings about ethanol are decidedly mixed among some environmentalists.

Morris says ethanol doesn't cut down much on carbon dioxide production, and many environmentalists now argue that corn-derived ethanol consumes at least as much petroleum-based fuel during production as it saves on the motorist's end.

Environmental Advocates of New York is more enthusiastic about prospects for use of ethanol derived from agricultural waste products such as sugar cane husks or wood chips, but the science of making that happen is not as well-developed as it is for corn.

This may be far more than you wanted to know about fueling your family vehicles with ethanol blends, but your question provided a nice opportunity to learn more about the topic.

NYSERDA also recommends two Web addresses for fuel economy tips and information about ethanol blended gasoline:

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/ethanol/ is a U.S. Energy Department address for ethanol info.

http://www.nyserda. org/programs/transportation/ AFV/FuelTips.asp is a section of NYSERDA's site with ideas for improving your car's fuel efficiency.

I have not yet completed the five tank test with known ethanol containing gasoline. However, I have some interesting results so far. (Or not interesting - you decide.) Yesterday, my wife and I drove from Albany to Rochester and back to attend our daughter's college graduation. It was a nearly perfect opportunity to assess the best mileage I could expect, because the conditions were ideal: ambient temperature between 60 and 65, no wind, and a 441 mile trip, nearly 90% on essentially flat interstate cruising at 75 mph without A/C. Running a stock 2007 SE I4AT with 12891 miles, the tires at 35 psi, Mobil1 5W20, and Hess regular containing "up to 10% ethanol." Trying to minimize both rapid acceleration (max rpm=2700) and braking, my mileage was 32.074 mpg.

I went back into my log to compare it to other trips and three tanks jumped out:

Mid January, with 8095 miles, running 205/65-15 Bridgestone Blizzak WS-60s on Sport Edition alloy wheels at 32 psi, M1-5W20, ambient temperatures 20 and dry, cruise set at 73 mph between Albany and Boston round trip, passenger and cargo equivalent to the Rochester trip, driving moderately, but not as hypermilish as the Rochester trip - running Hess winter blend without any ethanol labels on the pump: 32.802 mpg

Late February, 10033 miles, Blizzaks at 32 psi, M1 5W-20, Albany-Natick, MA round trip, ambient temperatures, mid-30s and dry, no A/C or RW defroster, two passengers with an average of 75 lbs cargo, cruise set at 74 mph, driving conservatively to moderately, running Hess winter mix, no ethanol label: 32.437 mpg

In contrast, I note that in early January at 6990 miles, with an average of 275 pounds more than the Rochester trip, also making an Albany-Boston round trip in 33 degree rain, ten miles of congestion, running the AC and RW defroster, driving an aggressive 73 mph to get to the airport as quickly but safely as possible, driving conservatively to moderately on the return, Blizzaks, M1-5W-20, Hess winter blend w/o ethanol label: 29.906 mpg

Well, I expected a small mpg penalty from cruising at 75 mph yesterday, but I expected the penalties of higher vehicle weight, winter tires, colder temperatures, and winter fuel to present larger drags on mpg than the extra 1-2 mph. But they didn't. I can't run an apples-to-apples comparison on the effects of the Blizzaks, because I installed them as I switched from factory fill to synthetic oil, and I took them off as the ethanol stickers were going on the Hess pumps. All in all, I expected about 2 mpg more than the winter runs on yesterday's trip, but instead I got about 0.4-0.7 mpg LESS and only about 7% more than making like NASCAR with a full car in a cold, rainy Boston rush hour.
:dunno:

I won't count the Rochester tank in my five tank trial, but it has convinced me to try five tanks of Mobil or Sunoco - neither of which has ethanol labels at the pump. At this point I think the penalty from ethanol blending is more than 3%. Then my next step will be to see which brand gives me the lowest cost per mile. Thanks largely to my credit card, Hess is about 7% cheaper per gallon. Watch it be a wash. . . .

Not the results I would have expected...

The ethanol has been in the 89 here in Iowa for years and I have always used it. I'm sure there is some sort of difference in mileage from it but the biggest difference is a 20-25 cent difference per gallon (cheaper than the 87) now when it used to be pretty much the same.

Here's some sticker shock for those of you not in the People's Republic of New York:

The <10% ethanol Regular at the local Hess is 375.9

The no-ethanol Regular at Mobil and Sunoco is 383.9 or about a 2% difference. It wouldn't surprise me if the state tax structure in Iowa gives a nice little credit for using ethanol. Here in PRNY, state, federal, and local taxes add about $0.65 to every gallon of gas.

Even though it costs less, I try to avoid it.

I have not yet completed the five tank test with known ethanol containing gasoline. However, I have some interesting results so far. (Or not interesting - you decide.)
.......
At this point I think the penalty from ethanol blending is more than 3%. Then my next step will be to see which brand gives me the lowest cost per mile. Thanks largely to my credit card, Hess is about 7% cheaper per gallon. Watch it be a wash. . . .

Thank you for sharing your findings!:thmsup:

I'd give you rep pts if I could :)

Which is???? Please elaborate!
"[E85] compared very favorably to a low-sulfur, low-benzene, oxygenated gasoline." Specifically, burning E85 resulted in fewer ozone-forming compounds than gasoline. And E85's benefits as far as combating global warming outweigh any impact in ozone pollution. "We need to have an orderly, sustained implementation of low-carbon fuels and a smooth transition to a low-carbon world," says Roland Hwang, vehicles policy director at the Natural Resources Defense Council, an environmental group. "E85 is a part of the solution to global warming."

Now here's the interesting part: with the more research I did, the more I found some recent conflicting reports about just how good ethanol is for the air quality. The same article that contained the info above is titled:

Want to Reduce Air Pollution? Don't Rely on Ethanol Necessarily

Fueling the automobile fleet primarily with ethanol rather than gasoline might increase air pollution, a new study finds

By David Biello

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=reduce-air-pollution-do-not-rely-on-ethanol

Now here's the interesting part: with the more research I did, the more I found some recent conflicting reports about just how good ethanol is for the air quality.

Which is why being informed is so important. Social decisions, especially those based on technology. are too important to leave to the agenda-driven.

In an earlier post I talked about MTBE, a low-cost, octane boosting, oxygenated gasoline additive. I worked for an oil company that pushed it in the early 80s (ARCO) as a silver bullet for air quality, Critics back then pointed out the potential issues of increased formaldehyde emissions, but EPA was so desperate to reduce ozone levels that they approved its use, which became widespread. Then when the MTBE groundwater contamination issue surfaced early this decade, EPA made an equally quick edict to ban MTBE, essentially obsoleting billions of dollars in chemical and petroleum plant and equipment. EPA could phase out MTBE because the next silver bullet - ethanol - was waiting in the wings with a powerful lobby.

We're now starting to see how that worked out.

Not to say we should believe everything we read. There's a bunch of junk and agenda-driven science out there. It's our obligation as citizens to become and stay informed so that our legislators and regulators stay on the reservation.

You'll never hear a presidential candidate say anything like THAT.

Thread moved to General drive for everyone's contribution.

Many of the gas stations here in South Florida are converting to gas with 10% Ethanol. I read an article last week in the Miami Herald that they all must convert within the next few years and that only vehicles manufactured in the mid 1980's and before need to be concerned. What are your thoughts on using Ethanol in the Accords :scratch:

All of our gas up here is already 10% ethanol... and it's been that way for a while now. They call it "reformulated gas".

As it's already been posted, it causes your vehicle to get poorer gas mileage. I noticed this with my Integra when taking long trips. I have yet to take our Accord on a long trip, so I don't know how much it will differ.

Ethanol isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

Yes, the E85 is cheaper, but that's because the government is subsidizing it In addition, food prices will increase as farmers grow corn for ethanol production as opposed to use for food or growing other produce. Whether you know it or not, increased corn prices affect many foods... not just meats and produce. Corn is used as an ingredient in many things... just start looking at ingredient labels.

Yes, it burns cleaner, but you need to use more to go the same distance as regular unleaded gas (no ethanol). Also, the process to make ethanol isn't exactly "earth-friendly", so any environment benefits of ethanol use is arguably offset (or even surpassed) by the "footprint" it makes from its production.

Excluding one tank of all-highway driving, I've now logged three tankfuls of driving on Hess regular that "may contain up to 10% ethanol." I've logged 1136 miles at 29.72 mpg.

To reiterate, my plan is to complete five tanks on the ethanol blend and then try five tankfuls of Mobil or Sunoco, which, as of this writing, do not have the ethanol stickers on the pump.

For comparison purposes, my last five tanks of Hess regular without ethanol on the OEM tires (last November) averaged 25.181 mpg. It might be useful to look at the differences between the November tanks and today:

1. My wife was driving the car in November. She is notorious for doing 40 mph at the end of our 60 ft driveway. So she has a heavy foot. But even without Maria Andretti driving, I averaged 26.181 in the five tanks just before she took over.
2. Had factory fill oil in November vs M1 5W-20 now,
3. Had 32 psi in OE tires then vs 35 now.
4. Likely had winter blend fuel then vs ethanol blend now.
5. The biggie - I've changed my driving style. It's not hypermiling, but prolly has some elements of it.
a. Doing the limit now instead of +10 mph
b. Anticipating accelerations and braking. Accelerating like there's a full cup of coffee on the dash - trying not to exceed 2700 rpm, and braking early at lights to try to coast up to a green light at >15 mph. Studies show most fuel is used in 0-15 acceleration. Example - I travel through three roundabouts in the AM and four every evening. I try to get through them without braking and at speeds above 25 mph (limit is 20). My cheap thrill for the day is exiting the interstate at 65 and coasting down through the first two roundabouts at 40 mph or more - without braking.
c. Running w/o AC whenever possible (frequently in upstate NY). Always using recirc when running AC and allowing cooled air to recirc w/ AC off.
d. Coasting in to the nearest available parking space, even if it's farther away.
e. When I have the option with double row parking, I glide through to the second space. That way I don't have to back out, stop, and restart. (I think a high-speed J-turn would not yield the desired MPG results, even if it were possible.).
f. Striving to stay in the highest gear possible.

The bottom line is that with these techniques - and not being so radical that I become a blockage or safety hazard to other drivers - I think I can average 31-32 mpg in my mix of short distance, 50/50 interstate/urban driving. That's about a 20% bump in mpg, and my wife becomes only mildly annoyed lately when I do "only" the limit.

Now I want to see what the same approach yields with ethanol free gas.