Read this in another thread. Is this true? If you upgrade the battery in your I4 accord, it will solve the dimming headlights when the ac is on?

Read this in another thread. Is this true? If you upgrade the battery in your I4 accord, it will solve the dimming headlights when the ac is on?

Only if the new battery stores more amps, like an aftermarket cell type batteries may help some. The real problem is the AC condenser is putting such a load on the system that the alternator output suffers and that drop in supply amps shows in the halogen headlamp output since less current is availabel to flow through the filaments. The AC on the Accord must really be a hog, because I have seen other people complaining about the idle dipping low enough to make the car shake unpleasantly from the AC switching on while at a stoplight.

maybe if you bought a yellow top with atleast 800 for cold crank.

Battery is actually the Optima Yellowtop D34-78. Sorry it cut off so abruptly but my camera battery died!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmnjipYR570

F' getting an Optima, lolz... Over-priced!

Wal Mart / Sam's Club / Costco / Sears... FTW! :cool:

F' getting an Optima, lolz... Over-priced!

Wal Mart / Sam's Club / Costco / Sears... FTW! :cool:

++ Optima yellow tops are JUNK!! If you want improvement, go to walmart and buy their marine batteries. Better yet, for some reason you insist on drycell, stick with Stinger, Odyssey and Kinetik ...etc... to name a few off the top of my head. Avoid Optima batteries, especially the yellow top series.

I never had a doubt this would work... I would use a red top but I dont have a battery issue. as far as cost, remeber this battery will last much longer than a normal battery

You get what you pay for! I personally would go with the optima red top. Costco has them for a pretty fair price. The deep cylce marine batteries also do the same thing for cheaper as mentioned before.

++ Optima yellow tops are JUNK!! If you want improvement, go to walmart and buy their marine batteries. Better yet, for some reason you insist on drycell, stick with Stinger, Odyssey and Kinetik ...etc... to name a few off the top of my head. Avoid Optima batteries, especially the yellow top series.

Sorry but I'd have to disagree with that. Every application that myself and friends have used them in, they have worked flawlessly. Yellow Tops presently are my first choice.

++ Optima yellow tops are JUNK!! If you want improvement, go to walmart and buy their marine batteries. Better yet, for some reason you insist on drycell, stick with Stinger, Odyssey and Kinetik ...etc... to name a few off the top of my head. Avoid Optima batteries, especially the yellow top series.

I used to be a stinger dealer.... they leak from the top terminal and corrode.... and are not a TRUE dry cell.. Go Kinetic... or optima Kinetic will cost you but is the best bang for the buck!

optimas have lower internal resistance , the alternator runs at a higher output when using a spiral cell technology battery . i have a feeling the headlights are hard wired to the alt output somehow. the higer voltage dosent drop as far bellow minimmum is what i would guess :dunno:

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread/2201268

So Honda is unwilling to fix this? I've noticed the dimming headlights for a while now and its become quite distracting during night driving. I was about to take it to the dealer and have them do something about it...

During my last visit to my dealer to have the fix the buzzing rear parcel shelf (second attempt) I also asked about the headlight dimming I've experienced.

When I got my receipt they also attached a copy of a page from some official Honda document that explains in detail how the ELD system works and what it was designed to do. Basically this anomaly IS NORMAL and designed to decrease the load on the alternator thus increasing fuel mileage some.

All I wanted was to know if I had a problem and what was causing it (under warranty) so if it became a BIGGER issue after the warranty expired I at least have it documented.

Bottom line we need to get over it.

During my last visit to my dealer to have the fix the buzzing rear parcel shelf (second attempt) I also asked about the headlight dimming I've experienced.

When I got my receipt they also attached a copy of a page from some official Honda document that explains in detail how the ELD system works and what it was designed to do. Basically this anomaly IS NORMAL and designed to decrease the load on the alternator thus increasing fuel mileage some.

All I wanted was to know if I had a problem and what was causing it (under warranty) so if it became a BIGGER issue after the warranty expired I at least have it documented.

Bottom line we need to get over it.


That was from Honda directly? My first reaction to that "official" response is: Ridiculous! It sounds like a corporate issued memo to stem the tide of a not easily fixed issue.

But, since I have a long track record of success dealing with Honda. I'll give them a bit on benefit of the doubt in that they do push a lot on the efficiency philosophy. As in, they design the cars and systems to do exactly the intended work and not more or less. But, it still doesn't make me really like that response.

So Honda is saying: To save you a theoretical 0.4 mpg, we have accepted that you will lose a detectable electrical capacity decrease intermittently including the lighting system.
Sure it's totaled after I hit the tree, but look how much gas was left!

During my last visit to my dealer to have the fix the buzzing rear parcel shelf (second attempt) I also asked about the headlight dimming I've experienced.

When I got my receipt they also attached a copy of a page from some official Honda document that explains in detail how the ELD system works and what it was designed to do. Basically this anomaly IS NORMAL and designed to decrease the load on the alternator thus increasing fuel mileage some.

All I wanted was to know if I had a problem and what was causing it (under warranty) so if it became a BIGGER issue after the warranty expired I at least have it documented.

Bottom line we need to get over it.


Sounds like Honda is just trying to cover their PR rear end a bit to me. Any competent group of engineers would have realized the requiment for a regulated supply voltage to safety items such as the low beam lamps, or replace them with xenon/HID systme that would not be affected by such a system. And furthermore, any measureable increase in fuel efficiency would be so minimal it would negate the cost alone.

Oh well, I guess come fall I'll forget all about it until next summer when I start running my A/C at night again... :D

So Honda is saying: To save you a theoretical 0.4 mpg, we have accepted that you will lose a detectable electrical capacity decrease intermittently including the lighting system.
Sure it's totaled after I hit the tree, but look how much gas was left!

You're kidding right? You're talking as if the light turn off or something. It barely flickers and you have to pay attention to even see it. Then again, it's just me...:dunno:

You're kidding right? You're talking as if the light turn off or something. It barely flickers and you have to pay attention to even see it. Then again, it's just me...:dunno:

Yes, kind of kidding. The light flicker is something I have always attributed to a lower capacity electrical system on a 4 banger. It has been present, as I remember anyway, on every Accord I've owned since the mid 80's. It does get solved by the larger battery for the most part as several have mentioned but it creeps back as the battery ages IMO. I think a larger alternator would also help...but it's all unnecessary to have a perfectly functional vehicle.

Sarcasm was certainly part of the post...

Okay if not an Optima battery, which battery is also recommended and amps needed to be higher than the stock battery. You guys have my interest now as I have taken several round trips to AL and back from NJ. While the light flickering is not a major issue with me, I would like to resolve it and if all it takes is an upgraded battery......I'm in.

You're kidding right? You're talking as if the light turn off or something. It barely flickers and you have to pay attention to even see it. Then again, it's just me...:dunno:
Right, its just the ELD/regulator, Just to see what was happening I put Fluke meter on car at idle, radio on, low beams on.
Voltage was 14.20 at battery, putting AC on gives a drop to 13.30 for split sec (even hard to read off Fluke display), then back up to approx 14.00v.
Now what I don't understand is on my vehicle I only notice it when turning AC on and I am up close to another object I can see headlights shine off. turning off AC I don't notice flicker cause it seems smoother voltage change. My AC is definitely not cycling every 15-30 sec like others are saying.

On Highway and normal driving my AC doesn't cycle much so I never see flickering while driving.
PS" I have manual LX model.

The only reason I was going to take it to the dealer was because I thought something may have been wrong... but if its happening to all 4cyl then okay, I can live with it. Like others have mentioned the dimming is pretty slight and if I don't think about it I tend not to notice it. I also don't believe it to be a safety hazard. I haven't noticed any sudden loss or even decreased visibility during the half second dimming. :D If anything, try watching for it, it should make you more alert!

I have never even noticed this. I must not be paying enough attention.

I have never even noticed this. I must not be paying enough attention.
Perhaps, ignorance is bliss! (considering how much people get their panties in a bunch over the most miniscule of things...)

My AC is definitely not cycling every 15-30 sec like others are saying.

On Highway and normal driving my AC doesn't cycle much so I never see flickering while driving.
PS" I have manual LX model.


Ed, just came back from an ~2,000 mile journey with about half of it driving at night. i did notice the headlights flicker about 3-4 times even without looking for it. however, i must say that i wasn't "that" bothered by it since i also had it in my old '92 rolla. but if a simple battery change will solve this, then i might as well jump on the bandwagon as well.

as to your AC not cycling that much, what's your thermostat level? mine was set about 2 notches to the left and i did notice the compressor come on frequently.

Looks like others elsewhere on the net are also claiming that the yellowtop optima solved the flickering lights issue. If this is the case, I can't understand why Honda wouldn't upsize the battery by a bit. I was at the dealer for first service and spoke to their tech - nice guy who fixed my squeeking breaks and passenger seat rattle. He looked at the flicker and said it was "normal". I don't do a lot of night driving but if I end up doing more I may actually try a new battery.

Has anyone on this thread dropped a new battery in yet?

Ed, just came back from an ~2,000 mile journey with about half of it driving at night. i did notice the headlights flicker about 3-4 times even without looking for it. however, i must say that i wasn't "that" bothered by it since i also had it in my old '92 rolla. but if a simple battery change will solve this, then i might as well jump on the bandwagon as well.

as to your AC not cycling that much, what's your thermostat level? mine was set about 2 notches to the left and i did notice the compressor come on frequently.

I leave my temp maxed cold and adjust the fan speed for the right temps.
The reason I do this is it seems if you raise temp it just adds heated air into the mix of AC air. I didn't notice more cycling with temp knob set with clicks warmer.
but it might do it for longer intervals, maybe i didn't give it enough time, i retest to see.

THe cycling of the compresser does not change with your cabin air temp adjustment. THe cabin controls simply introduce more or less warm air into cooled air.

THe cycling of the compresser does not change with your cabin air temp adjustment. THe cabin controls simply introduce more or less warm air into cooled air.
If thats the case it must be differences in AC systems, fill amount or whatever that i guess is tripping the pressure sensors in the AC lines.
every 15-30sec is way more than mine, I have only noticed it cycle a few times with AC on, surely goes many minutes without cycling

Has anyone on this thread dropped a new battery in yet?


Yep. The Yellowtop works like a charm, no further issues.:thmsup:

I've noticed the headlight dimming itself. I hope the explanation isn't as others state above. Think it is a bunch of BS - propogated by Honda apologists. There are other ways to get the 0.4 mpg - how about a 6th gear in the automatic just like the Hyundai. Geez if this was something Honda is proud of why not proclaim it as a standard feature - self dimming headlights.

I leave my temp maxed cold and adjust the fan speed for the right temps.
The reason I do this is it seems if you raise temp it just adds heated air into the mix of AC air. I didn't notice more cycling with temp knob set with clicks warmer.
but it might do it for longer intervals, maybe i didn't give it enough time, i retest to see.

i believe that if you set thermostat to max, your AC compressor will cycle LESS (longer intervals) since inside temps will be cool enough for longer periods -- compared to thermostat set at ~30% -- thus lessening the need for the compressor to cut in.

but i don't think that there'd be "heated" air coming from the outside adding to the mix particularly if you have recirc on.

If you have an EX-L, it has automatic climate control and the compressor and condensor fans (the real big current draw) cycle every 15-30 seconds - at least they do on my car. I still don't believe a bigger battery will solve anything. The batteries are around 12 volts plus or minus. The problem is the large current draw causes the electrical system voltage to drop from 14 plus volts (alternator output) to something in the 13 volt range and the ELD system does not react quick enough to switch the alternator to high output. Even a small battery can put out several hundred amps, but at only 12 volts. The lights dim because the voltage drops considerably when the fans start up. A normal electrical system will compensate for this and there will be no noticeable dimming of the lights. Sitting at idle, some dimming is normal in all cars because the alternator output current is low.

The responses from Honda are expected. This is a defect and if it weren't, the same "characteristic" would exist in all of their cars, since they all have the ELD system. The 2009 Accords will be on the dealer lots shortly and it will be interesting to see if they fixed the defect. How will they explain the defect then?

i too am skeptical about a larger battery working, as most current drawn after startup is from the alternator...def going to vote ELD
http://www.civicforums.com/forums/21-i-c-e-electrical/159859-meet-your-eld-electrical-load-detector.html

i too am skeptical about a larger battery working, as most current drawn after startup is from the alternator...def going to vote ELD
http://www.civicforums.com/forums/21-i-c-e-electrical/159859-meet-your-eld-electrical-load-detector.htmlVery interesting read, now I wonder if those who have aftermarket stereos and Amps are exaserbating the problem with the ELD, since the weakening battery makes the situation worse. Hmmmmmmmmm.

i too am skeptical about a larger battery working, as most current drawn after startup is from the alternator...def going to vote ELD
http://www.civicforums.com/forums/21-i-c-e-electrical/159859-meet-your-eld-electrical-load-detector.html

Bingo. Took 3 pages for two people to catch on. And FYI, head lights dimming is nothing new, it happens in many cars and trucks and has for a VERY long time and its not a defect!

Constant flickering (beyond a quick few seconds) and dimming is very different though, consistant flickering should not be considered normal. Fight the power on that one IF its non stop.

Back one the dimming though...
Its a VOLTAGE drop when other items kick on and the alternator/regulator adjusts. Its not current, its not resistance, its not battery capacity (size). In fact, with bigger batteries, the is the same voltage and will experience the very same voltage drop as a smaller one.

Take for example those with serious sound systems. They typically install one high quality battery, and a HIGH OUTPUT ALTERNATOR. They do not load up their cars/trucks with huge or multiple batteries, and have to run their car/truck while blasting to avoid a dead battery.

Take another example...a battery that wont hold a charge. This is to point out that once the car is started, it will remain running until you turn it off. Why am I talking about this? Because its a real world example to show your car primarily runs off the alternator once running, the battery is completing a circuit (for the most part).

Bingo. Took 3 pages for two people to catch on. And FYI, head lights dimming is nothing new, it happens in many cars and trucks and has for a VERY long time and its not a defect!

Constant flickering (beyond a quick few seconds) and dimming is very different though, consistant flickering should not be considered normal. Fight the power on that one IF its non stop.

Back one the dimming though...
Its a VOLTAGE drop when other items kick on and the alternator/regulator adjusts. Its not current, its not resistance, its not battery capacity (size). In fact, with bigger batteries, the is the same voltage and will experience the very same voltage drop as a smaller one.

Take for example those with serious sound systems. They typically install one high quality battery, and a HIGH OUTPUT ALTERNATOR. They do not load up their cars/trucks with huge or multiple batteries, and have to run their car/truck while blasting to avoid a dead battery.

Take another example...a battery that wont hold a charge. This is to point out that once the car is started, it will remain running until you turn it off. Why am I talking about this? Because its a real world example to show your car primarily runs off the alternator once running, the battery is completing a circuit (for the most part).Here's the crazy part:nuts: If everyone is to believed :paranoid:, putting a yellow top battery in their cars is solving the problem:dunno: How can this be?

I have a sound system. I also have a V6 a red top optima and a capicitor. I dont have any power issues. I think this is an islolated problem to the I4's though. BTW most people do use 2 batteries in bigger sound systems sometimes or not in conjunction with the high output alternators.

I have the 08 Accord EX-L (automatic) 4-cyl, and I'd really like to eliminate the dimming of the lights.

Can someone please confirm which yellow top or battery to get? Is it the D34-78?

Thanks so much!

Back one the dimming though...
Its a VOLTAGE drop when other items kick on and the alternator/regulator adjusts. Its not current, its not resistance, its not battery capacity (size). In fact, with bigger batteries, the is the same voltage and will experience the very same voltage drop as a smaller one.

This is not really correct, all of these systems are run in parallel, thus all see the same voltage, the only true voltage drop seen has to do with the resistivity and length of the wires

Generators/alternators should be thought of as power (watts) and what the ELD does is monitor current draw (amps), and as that increases, tells the alternator to generater more power (watts)....voltage should stay the same (i know it doesnt as no real world app is perfect) thus current (amps) is boosted by alternator output and less strain is put on the battery
Watts = (Amps) x (Volts)

im not entirely sure where the issue lies in the ELD but i assume its something of a delay issue (compressor kicks on, current draw goes up, lights dim, ELD notifies alternator, alternator boosts current, lights are back to normal)

Okay then, why should either of these make any difference?


V6 or I4
Factory or Better Battery
:confused:

1. prob has to do with the ELD settings (V6 generates more power, thus some settings must vary)....may have different alternators, i dunno

2. my bet is it doesnt..maybe at first with a brand spankin new one, but id be willing to bet there really is no change with a new battery...although some say it works...video proof one way or the other is the only way to solve this issue

(mind you im merely guessing at these things utilizing what limited info ive seen)

I accept #2, but #1, I.m not really buying in to it. If the altenator is dependent on the ELD and the ELD is designed for fuel economy, I would think they would favor the I4, not work against it.:dunno:

This is not really correct, all of these systems are run in parallel, thus all see the same voltage, the only true voltage drop seen has to do with the resistivity and length of the wires

Generators/alternators should be thought of as power (watts) and what the ELD does is monitor current draw (amps), and as that increases, tells the alternator to generater more power (watts)....voltage should stay the same (i know it doesnt as no real world app is perfect) thus current (amps) is boosted by alternator output and less strain is put on the battery
Watts = (Amps) x (Volts)

im not entirely sure where the issue lies in the ELD but i assume its something of a delay issue (compressor kicks on, current draw goes up, lights dim, ELD notifies alternator, alternator boosts current, lights are back to normal)

In a perfect world the regulator/ELD would work like that but it doesn't. It has stages low/high so it has to get enough draw to trigger the high setting.
The problem is the lights are very sensitive to brightness with voltage.
As in my earlier post the voltage spikes down by about 1v and then stabilizes after a sec or so, hence you see the flicker.
Also there seems to be 3 battery sizes used, smallest one is the group size 51R, 410 CCA, part# 31500 SDA A01

Will the v-6 alternator fit the 4cyl? The v6 has 100 amps correct? as opposed to the 4's 80?

no, 2 different engines.
j35 and k24 parts are not compatible.

Is there a high output alt for the I4?

The problem is not the size of the alternator. The problem is that the ECU is not triggered by the ELD to switch the alternator to high output, before the condensor fans cut in. The fans cut in as the compressor is engaged, the ELD senses the increased electrical load and signals the computer to switch the alternator after the fact Hence, the voltage drop, the light dimming and THEN the current is increased by the alternator, the voltage recovers and the lights return to original brightness. This happens every 15-30 seconds in my car and is annoying, potentially a safety issue and IS a defect.

The State of Georgia just verified that my defect meets the Lemon Law test and we are now headed to arbitration.

The State of Georgia just verified that my defect meets the Lemon Law test and we are now headed to arbitration.

What criteria is exactly referenced for failure?

Installed (shoehorned) stinger sp1500, no dimming anymore. In fact I can draw 100 plus amps (250 peak) from my audio system for a couple of minutes and experience no dimming. The factory battery for the 4cyl seems to be sized to barely meet the needs of the car.

Installed (shoehorned) stinger sp1500, no dimming anymore. In fact I can draw 100 plus amps (250 peak) from my audio system for a couple of minutes and experience no dimming. The factory battery for the 4cyl seems to be sized to barely meet the needs of the car.

Did you have the battery size group 51R (31500 SDA AO1) ?

My factory installed battery in my 2008 coupe was a group 51R. I'm sure this is standard with the 2.4L. The same battery is in my 2004 CRV. The new stinger1500 is much larger and required modification of the surrounding plastic and battery cables.

My factory installed battery in my 2008 coupe was a group 51R. I'm sure this is standard with the 2.4L. The same battery is in my 2004 CRV. The new stinger1500 is much larger and required modification of the surrounding plastic and battery cables.

no, there 2 sizes used, the PZEV emission 2.4 seems to use group 35, model# 31500 SBD AO2 (440 CCA)
The ULEV-2 models uses the group 51R ( 410 CCA)

What criteria is exactly referenced for failure?

The fact that all lights dim every 15-30 seconds as the a/c cycles on and off. This meets the test of a defect and the outcome will be determined by a three member panel in arbitration. We present our case, Honda presents theirs and then we rebut. A test drive will occur if necessary.

Well if the 'dimming' of the headlights is deemed to be a repair/recall worthy issue, what will Honda be liable for?

A ~$50 battery (presumably wholesale-cost for Honda for a higherr-output lead-acetate battery) would remedy the matter, correct?

no, there 2 sizes used, the PZEV emission 2.4 seems to use group 35, model# 31500 SBD AO2 (440 CCA)
The ULEV-2 models uses the group 51R ( 410 CCA)So If I have the PZEV engine Honda provides a higher cranking power battery? Does this impact the dimming?

BTW, just saw on Amazon the Red Top for $123 w/ free shipping.
http://www.amazon.com/Optima-Batteries-Group-Post-Battery/dp/B000MS9VZK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1220969082&sr=1-2 Would this help?

Well if the 'dimming' of the headlights is deemed to be a repair/recall worthy issue, what will Honda be liable for?

A ~$50 battery (presumably wholesale-cost for Honda for a higherr-output lead-acetate battery) would remedy the matter, correct?
Or just disable ELD? Not a biggie either way. It'd be interesting to find out. Good day.
JC

The problem is not the size of the alternator. The problem is that the ECU is not triggered by the ELD to switch the alternator to high output, before the condensor fans cut in. The fans cut in as the compressor is engaged, the ELD senses the increased electrical load and signals the computer to switch the alternator after the fact Hence, the voltage drop, the light dimming and THEN the current is increased by the alternator, the voltage recovers and the lights return to original brightness. This happens every 15-30 seconds in my car and is annoying, potentially a safety issue and IS a defect.

The State of Georgia just verified that my defect meets the Lemon Law test and we are now headed to arbitration.

Thanks for your ability to stand up to Honda-so few if any of us on here would go the the extent that you have.
Please show the arbitrators this web site with all the complaints-as well as the complaints listed on the NHSTA website ,hondacarforum.com and honda-tech.com as well. I have been following this topic for so long and I also demand that Honda fix the problem at their expense.

Sorry to revive this thread...was wondering if the 09's I4's are doing this?

idunno but my 08 isnt doing this...you guys are crazy. :)

idunno but my 08 isnt doing this...you guys are crazy. :)
I see you live in Mich. You most likely do not use your a/c that often. It only happens when a/c kicks in. Take a drive at night with a/c on-you will notice the flicker. Also it must be a 4cyl.
Here in south, a/c is on almost ALL of the time.

Sorry to revive this thread...was wondering if the 09's I4's are doing this?

Yes they also are doing it...click over to NHTSA.GOV and search their complaint base for 2009 honda accords..5 complaints on there about 2009's and 4 of them reference headlight flickering..that my friend is 80%. For the 2008 year there are 190 complaints filed againt the Accord compared to 39 for the 2008 Camry. Yes some of them are dups but still thats alot of complaints. My other car has had 10 complaints filed againt it and its a 2003.

I see you live in Mich. You most likely do not use your a/c that often. It only happens when a/c kicks in. Take a drive at night with a/c on-you will notice the flicker. Also it must be a 4cyl.
Here in south, a/c is on almost ALL of the time.

Mine did this without the a/c even on! And I don't have extra components installed.

idunno but my 08 isnt doing this...you guys are crazy. :)

no you have to stare at the light, you'll notice it if you look hard enough. the headlights don't dim that much on the coupe but the interior lights do dim.

I've got the dimming problem. It is noticeable at speeds up to 70 mph (highway) and down to 10-15 mph (neighborhood).

Took it to the dealer to look at the problem and they provided the attached docs.

Hope this helps others.

Cheers.

I've got the dimming problem. It is noticeable at speeds up to 70 mph (highway) and down to 10-15 mph (neighborhood).

Took it to the dealer to look at the problem and they provided the attached docs.

Hope this helps others.

Cheers.


Same junk honda has been giving to everyone...do you think they could at least update the december 2000 bulletin to make it look like it applies to the new cars?..Thats their only defense on a defective car.

My 09 does it even sitting at idle. When the fans start cranking for the a/c, i can see it dim for a split second, and then go back to full power. I haven't noticed it while driving though, therefore, it hasn't been a big deal to me. I only noticed it standing outside waiting for a friend to get ready, leaning on my car.

I've got the dimming problem. It is noticeable at speeds up to 70 mph (highway) and down to 10-15 mph (neighborhood).

Took it to the dealer to look at the problem and they provided the attached docs.

Hope this helps others.

Cheers.

It seems that there should be a fix for this, either by reprogramming the ELD in the fuse box or reprogramming the ECM/PCM or both.

By the way, I installed a group 35 Megatron Plus Interstate Battery to see if it fixed the problem. No change. It also does this anytime any sort of climate control device that uses the fan, whether it be A/C or heat.

In fact, the problem may be more noticeable with the new battery due to the reasons explained in the "normal characteristics" document above. At least the car acts like it wants to crank now. The first time I came out to start my car in below-freezing temps and it acted like an 82 Chevy, that 51R battery was out.

Since Honda does not see it as a problem, there will be no fix. What I wonder, however, is if it affects those cars with the 35 series batteries as much as the 51 series battery?:dunno:

Yes, kind of kidding. The light flicker is something I have always attributed to a lower capacity electrical system on a 4 banger. It has been present, as I remember anyway, on every Accord I've owned since the mid 80's. It does get solved by the larger battery for the most part as several have mentioned but it creeps back as the battery ages IMO. I think a larger alternator would also help...but it's all unnecessary to have a perfectly functional vehicle.

Sarcasm was certainly part of the post...

That was funny!

Careful with that sarcasm bit though, I got called a crackhead for it in another thread and the guy went BALLISTIC!.:lmao:

Since Honda does not see it as a problem, there will be no fix. What I wonder, however, is if it affects those cars with the 35 series batteries as much as the 51 series battery?:dunno:

How do I determine if I have a 35 Series vs. a 51 Series?

Also, I will be meeting with Honda America Rep tomorrow at the Dealer. I guess that will determine what steps I take next. Hopefully a fix, buy back, or trade will be offered. Love the drive, but not at night:( and it gets dark around 4:30 here so we see lots of the dark. Since this problem seems to be associated to latitude I wish I lived in lower latitudes to avoid this dangerous defect being so noticeable. Oh welll, we can't all live at the equator.

It is curious to ponder if this problem effected the radio, i.e. if the radio volume lowered every time like the lights would the problem be fixed more quickly?

How do I determine if I have a 35 Series vs. a 51 Series?
The 35 fills the battery compartment and the 51 does not

The 35 fills the battery compartment and the 51 does not
i think hes asking which is which exactly.


has anyone put a red top Optima in their cars? i want to do this, but not sure which size to get or how to get the tie down to work with a new battery because the old one is too small

okay..so how about if u have HID lights installed? cuz i still cant see the difference...and is it a big problem? seems like its a big one or something...like is the car lights gonna die one day and u be driving without lights?

If you have HIDs you won't have this problem.

The problem is compounded (imo) by the fact that the Accord, like most cars nowadays, automatically cycles the A/C when in any defrost mode. So for we northerners who have/need/want air blowing on the windshield all winter, and who drive home in the dark all winter, we see the flicker all the time whether we like it or not... there's simply no way to use any defrsot cycle without the A/C cycling on an off. (And yes, I know why they do this, but still....)

The problem is compounded (imo) by the fact that the Accord, like most cars nowadays, automatically cycles the A/C when in any defrost mode. So for we northerners who have/need/want air blowing on the windshield all winter, and who drive home in the dark all winter, we see the flicker all the time whether we like it or not... there's simply no way to use any defrsot cycle without the A/C cycling on an off. (And yes, I know why they do this, but still....)

I guess that is one more instance where the dimming/flashing of the headlights is visible.

Here is a list so far of when it occurs (all the below assumes 4 Cyl. w/o HID lights):
(1) Parked in park (w/ or w/o A/C or w/ or w/o Defrost)
(2) At stop lights in drive (w/ or w/o A/C or w/ or w/o Defrost)
(3) In slow speeds (10-45 mph) in drive (w/ or w/o A/C or w/ or w/o Defrost)
(4) In fast speeds (<45 mph) in drive (w/ or w/o A/C or w/ or w/o Defrost) [I've only observed it up to 70 mph - maybe others have observed at greater speeds]

(Pretty sure about the above - seems that the defrost doesn't have to be on nor does the AC have to be on)

Characteristics: Lights dim to the point of the person in front of you thinking you are flashing your lights at them.

Honda acknowledges this condition as normal characteristic of the car.

If I am not successful working with the Better Business Bureau (BBB), State Attorney General, and Lemon Law, I will probably look into the HID.

Kind of disappointed that the dealer did not indicate this as a characteristic at the beginning. Oh well...

I guess it was a good thing I planned on upgrading to HID's from the get go. I still didn't feel like it was a problem from the 1 week I ran halogens though.

I guess that is one more instance where the dimming/flashing of the headlights is visible.

Here is a list so far of when it occurs (all the below assumes 4 Cyl. w/o HID lights):
(1) Parked in park (w/ or w/o A/C or w/ or w/o Defrost)
(2) At stop lights in drive (w/ or w/o A/C or w/ or w/o Defrost)
(3) In slow speeds (10-45 mph) in drive (w/ or w/o A/C or w/ or w/o Defrost)
(4) In fast speeds (<45 mph) in drive (w/ or w/o A/C or w/ or w/o Defrost) [I've only observed it up to 70 mph - maybe others have observed at greater speeds]

(Pretty sure about the above - seems that the defrost doesn't have to be on nor does the AC have to be on)

Characteristics: Lights dim to the point of the person in front of you thinking you are flashing your lights at them.

Honda acknowledges this condition as normal characteristic of the car.

If I am not successful working with the Better Business Bureau (BBB), State Attorney General, and Lemon Law, I will probably look into the HID.

Kind of disappointed that the dealer did not indicate this as a characteristic at the beginning. Oh well...

Honda will not do anything unless you Lemon Law your car. The HID lights only solve the headlight issue - they do not fix the underlying defect. Your taillights dim also. I guess you could install LED taillights to help with this. Your electrical system is still seeing large voltage fluctuations every time the condenser/cooling fans kick on. If you think this does not affect the computers on board, then it is not a problem.

The Dealer is not going to show this "characteristic" to you. If they even are aware of it, many people would avoid this car if they were told about it. I know that I would have.

Just submitted the BBB Auto Line Paperwork to request that I be reimbursed for this defect that I feel effects my safety while driving at night.

http://us.bbb.org/WWWRoot/SitePage.aspx?site=113&id=008c749a-ea0b-40ed-9be1-65db5886a6fd

Here is a heads up - in Alabama you only have the first 12,000 miles of ownership to file for reimbursement under the Lemon Law with the BBB Auto Line. Thus, I recommend if you have *any* concerns that you file now and not try to live with it.

In no way to I feel that I should have to fix a defect with a new car where a manufacture refuses to acknowledge is a safety problem or defect with their automobile.

Will let you know how it goes.

Have a safe New Year.

Cheers!

I put this AGM batt in my 09 I4/AT a few days ago...I cannot tell now I have any type of flickering or major "dip" on the lighting. Here's the batt - a AGM marine batt more twice the CCA (945) as the std batt (410):
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/gersly123/DSC04114.jpg
look at the two side by side:
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/gersly123/DSC04113.jpg

not a fan of optimas...seen too many go down in the marine world. Good AGM's I know are Deka, Lifeline, Sears, Odyssey and Cabella's. Best bang for your buck is the 700 CCA Cabella at $149.00

see my thoughts on AGM's here on page 4 or so:

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25221

I put this AGM batt in my 09 I4/AT a few days ago...I cannot tell now I have any type of flickering or major "dip" on the lighting. Here's the batt - a AGM marine batt more twice the CCA (945) as the std batt (410):
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/gersly123/DSC04114.jpg
look at the two side by side:
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/gersly123/DSC04113.jpg

not a fan of optimas...seen too many go down in the marine world. Good AGM's I know are Deka, Lifeline, Sears, Odyssey and Cabella's. Best bang for your buck is the 700 CCA Cabella at $149.00

see my thoughts on AGM's here on page 4 or so:

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25221

Looks like a good quick fix- however I notice that the pos and neg terminals are not on the correct sides of the battery to match up with the cars's wires.
Also I see no holddown brackets? You use new brackets that fit the v-6?

I put this AGM batt in my 09 I4/AT a few days ago...I cannot tell now I have any type of flickering or major "dip" on the lighting. Here's the batt - a AGM marine batt more twice the CCA (945) as the std batt (410):
[IMG]http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/gersly123/DSC04114.jpg[IMG]
look at the two side by side:
[IMG]http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/gersly123/DSC04113.jpg[IMG]

not a fan of optimas...seen too many go down in the marine world. Good AGM's I know are Deka, Lifeline, Sears, Odyssey and Cabella's. Best bang for your buck is the 700 CCA Cabella at $149.00

see my thoughts on AGM's here on page 4 or so:

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25221

Agreed. Optima deep cycle batteries are trash. I found a pretty good read on batteries here http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm .

Where do you buy Cabela's batteries outside of their stores?

Will HMC pay for the new battery??

Honda pay?

No way....they see nothing wrong...I'm more interested in proper operation rather than fighting with Honda

...and per the question above, no need for a new bracket - using a 175 lb set of zip ties that snag the batt perfectly. We use them on bigger boats to secure 100 lb anchors so a batt is no stress on them. Nice and tight, and corrosion free. 4 feet long avail at home depot. Red #2 ga cable is the cable added to access the right side pos terminal of the batt - see pic for both:
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/gersly123/DSC00261.jpg

I do not get any dimming unless my AC compressor is kicking on and off... and I've looked hard for it. The condition ONLY happens for me when the AC compressor is cycling on and off.

(08 LX 4cyl 5spd)

I do not get any dimming unless my AC compressor is kicking on and off... and I've looked hard for it. The condition ONLY happens for me when the AC compressor is cycling on and off.

(08 LX 4cyl 5spd)


Exactly right..but when you live in Florida you have the A/C on 24/7 and that's why I am taking the car back to honda.

Doubt that will past state safety inspection, and also not sure if I would (personally) trust zip ties to secure a battery, there are edges on the battery tray etc. which could eventually wear through the plastic material, plus the underhood temperature may also soften and degrade the plastic material and cause it to fail over time when it is used for such a high weight application.

...and per the question above, no need for a new bracket - using a 175 lb set of zip ties that snag the batt perfectly. We use them on bigger boats to secure 100 lb anchors so a batt is no stress on them. Nice and tight, and corrosion free. 4 feet long avail at home depot. http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/gersly123/DSC00261.jpg

I knew this would come up...

No..I'm sure it will work...but if state inspection is a problem, I'll get a bracket...the zip tie is no where near any rough edges, I used rubber grommets on the lower attaching holes....and they have no heat problem. But batt trays and aluminum are cheap so I'll probably do that...

I actually spent a few mins going thru this whole thread - and I'm just awestruck at the lengths people will go for something that's normal behavior with most any vehicle on the road. As I stated in another thread, upping the group 51 to a group 35 battery didn't make any discernable difference in any "dimming" of the lights when the A/C kicks off and on - because every vehicle I have will do that - even going back to my infamous 88 Astro Van (where I first noticed this phenomenon). But, hey, if putting a 1k cca battery in with nonstandard hold-downs floats your boat, that's your call. My issue with the group 51 was crank-ability, and that's why I upgraded to a group 35, and that solved the problem for me.

Oh, yea - and I got a real chuckle out of a BBB claim because of "safety" due to this sort of dimming. Will be very interested to see if anything comes of that.

Sorry, dudes. Life has a whole lot more important things to worry about - but I guess that comes with life's hard knocks that we all have to go thru.

andy (aka, one of the 'old dudes' on the forum, who can remember being able to add distilled water to batteries before they were sealed...)

I actually spent a few mins going thru this whole thread - and I'm just awestruck at the lengths people will go for something that's normal behavior with most any vehicle on the road. As I stated in another thread, upping the group 51 to a group 35 battery didn't make any discernable difference in any "dimming" of the lights when the A/C kicks off and on - because every vehicle I have will do that - even going back to my infamous 88 Astro Van (where I first noticed this phenomenon). But, hey, if putting a 1k cca battery in with nonstandard hold-downs floats your boat, that's your call.
+1 on that. I have the group 35 battery in mine because that is what the PZEV I4 comes with. Every car has a similar situation, you would not want your alternator working that hard all the time, it would eat gas and burn up the alternator. As time passes and your battery weakens it will only get worse.

I knew this would come up...

No..I'm sure it will work...but if state inspection is a problem, I'll get a bracket...the zip tie is no where near any rough edges, I used rubber grommets on the lower attaching holes....and they have no heat problem. But batt trays and aluminum are cheap so I'll probably do that...

Any thoughts about how Honda will treat warranty work regarding this DIY fix for their problem or other possibly warranty work in the future? e.g., alternator, or other possible electrical stuff?

Exactly right..but when you live in Florida you have the A/C on 24/7 and that's why I am taking the car back to honda.

Honeygee,

Would be interested in how this goes for you. Have you started the process in Florida? I believe someone successfully navigated the Lemon Law process in GA regarding this defect. If you have already been successful I would be very interested in any details you can provide.


...
Sorry, dudes. Life has a whole lot more important things to worry about - but I guess that comes with life's hard knocks that we all have to go thru.
...




Andysinnh,
Roger this...I would have started the Lemon Law sooner with Honda, but life has been pretty full for us as well. Kind of sad we are in the 21st Century, but still can just make a car that has a solid interior, no electrical problems, drives fine for years (~100K), and has a decent dealer/service department. Cie la vie.

Any thoughts about how Honda will treat warranty work regarding this DIY fix for their problem or other possibly warranty work in the future? e.g., alternator, or other possible electrical stuff?



Honeygee,

Would be interested in how this goes for you. Have you started the process in Florida? I believe someone successfully navigated the Lemon Law process in GA regarding this defect. If you have already been successful I would be very interested in any details you can provide.

Cheers all.

My car is going to the same arbritration board in the state of Georgia where Katana Pilot won his case..all the paperwork has been processed and I am waiting for a definite date. Eventhough I live in Florida the car was bought at the best dealer I have ever dealt with..Mike Patton Honda in Lagrange Georgia, therefore I must return to Georgia to persue it..

It is a bit more noticeable on this car, but the same thing happened on my 98 altima. It can be a bit annoying, and should have been fixed by 2008, but I sure wouldn't go through all the trouble of getting rid of a car over it. Surely there are other things bothering the people who are going to arbitration besides this headlight flicker. If not, you will be sorely disappointed with the minor imperfections of any car you buy.

I, for one, threw in some HIDs for less than 100 bucks, and have no more flicker whatsoever.

Any thoughts about how Honda will treat warranty work regarding this DIY fix for their problem or other possibly warranty work in the future? e.g., alternator, or other possible electrical stuff?



Exceeding a mfr's electrical requiements does not void warranty. Period. Going up in battery capacity should have no effect on any other components. If anything I did leads to a problem (like a bad connection or a battery failure), then yes, I have a problem. But if the battery is not causing any negative effects on the engine and just storing and supplying electrical energy, I have no problem. No matter what your dealer says, that is the truth. I worked for Honda for a few years and BMW for many, that's the law. Just like a guy that puts in HID's, snow tires (or optimia yellow top) , he has no problem if they work correctly.

I just picked up a nicely used 2008 Acura TL Type S 6 speed for the same money as I paid for my new 2008 Accord I4 EX-L Navi with the defective electrical system.

The Acura is a fabulous car. No headlight dimming, no excessive road noise, no brake problems, no interior panels that don't fit right. I drove it 800 miles bringing it home, mostly at night.

The Honda could have been a great car, but the manufacturer goofed on many fronts. The biggest mistake was trying to tell owners that the defect was normal and that all Hondas have the same characteristic. I have owned 3 Hondas and 2 Acuras before the 2008 Accord and none ever did this. I hate being lied to and I hate being treated as ignorant.

If you own one of these cars and the characteristic does not bother you, then that is fine. I hope you have a great experience with your Honda and it lasts a long time. I believe you will have problems down the road with the electronics and electrical system that Honda will not take care of.

Happy New Year.

try this
http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26170

How do I determine if I have a 35 Series vs. a 51 Series?

Also, I will be meeting with Honda America Rep tomorrow at the Dealer. I guess that will determine what steps I take next. Hopefully a fix, buy back, or trade will be offered. Love the drive, but not at night:( and it gets dark around 4:30 here so we see lots of the dark. Since this problem seems to be associated to latitude I wish I lived in lower latitudes to avoid this dangerous defect being so noticeable. Oh welll, we can't all live at the equator.

It is curious to ponder if this problem effected the radio, i.e. if the radio volume lowered every time like the lights would the problem be fixed more quickly?

Agree that Hunda should fix this problem, but turn off your A/C and you won't even notice this problem.

Agree that Hunda should fix this problem, but turn off your A/C and you won't even notice this problem.

That is not an option in
florida.

try this
http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26170

The HID lights may solve one of the symptoms of the defect (dimming headlights) but it does not solve the defect itself. Further, the electronics will continue to see these large voltage fluctuations every 15-20 seconds and will suffer from early failure, in my opinion. I also do not think that Honda will stand behind these cars out of warranty when the electronics start to fail.

Major modifications like the HID lights, etc. may void your warranty.

The real solution is for Honda to engineer the fix and issue a TSB or to Lemon Law your car and give it back to them.

The HID lights may solve one of the symptoms of the defect (dimming headlights) but it does not solve the defect itself. Further, the electronics will continue to see these large voltage fluctuations every 15-20 seconds and will suffer from early failure, in my opinion. I also do not think that Honda will stand behind these cars out of warranty when the electronics start to fail.

Major modifications like the HID lights, etc. may void your warranty.

The real solution is for Honda to engineer the fix and issue a TSB or to Lemon Law your car and give it back to them.

like i said before, its been happening over 10 years now, honda's arent known for electrical problems. all it will do is still dim the headlights further down the road.

OK, all of you folks - I've gotta get this off my chest, and in all caps since I am shouting:

MOST ANY 4 CYL ENGINE WILL HAVE MORE NOTICIBLE DIMMING HEADLIGHTS DUE TO EXCESS STRAIN OF THE A/C SYSTEM AND COOLING FANS, SINCE THE "OOMPH" TO KEEP THE ALTERNATOR OUTPUT CONSTANT JUST ISN'T THERE. THIS GOES BACK EVEN TO MY 1981 MERCURY LYNX WITH ITS 4 CYL ENGINE. DID THE SAME THING - THEY ALL DO.

OK - I feel better. To the person in GA who got a nicely used TL - congrats - you've got a hot 6 cyl motor that doesn't show the problem to the extent you saw in your Accord - but I'm willing to bet that if you look REAL CLOSE, the lights that aren't HID will dim when the cooling fans kick in - just not as much as you might have seen in your 4 cyl.

I'm still amazed at what some people will try to justify as a 'safety defect' and then get a lemon-law arbitration board to buy - no wonder the cost of vehicles continues to rise....

Sorry - I can't see your point no matter how much you try to justify it. And yes, I do use A/C a lot up here in the northeast in the summer....

andy

and if you think its just the accord that does it your very wrong, i have a camry with almost 400k on it, its a v6 and running like a champ but the light does dim when the fans kick on. same thing with my mom's CRV and her Chrysler town and country. the town and country and the camry don't do it as often as the crv or accord though.

OK, all of you folks - I've gotta get this off my chest, and in all caps since I am shouting:

MOST ANY 4 CYL ENGINE WILL HAVE MORE NOTICIBLE DIMMING HEADLIGHTS DUE TO EXCESS STRAIN OF THE A/C SYSTEM AND COOLING FANS, SINCE THE "OOMPH" TO KEEP THE ALTERNATOR OUTPUT CONSTANT JUST ISN'T THERE. THIS GOES BACK EVEN TO MY 1981 MERCURY LYNX WITH ITS 4 CYL ENGINE. DID THE SAME THING - THEY ALL DO.

OK - I feel better. To the person in GA who got a nicely used TL - congrats - you've got a hot 6 cyl motor that doesn't show the problem to the extent you saw in your Accord - but I'm willing to bet that if you look REAL CLOSE, the lights that aren't HID will dim when the cooling fans kick in - just not as much as you might have seen in your 4 cyl. I'm still amazed at what some people will try to justify as a 'safety defect' and then get a lemon-law arbitration board to buy - no wonder the cost of vehicles continues to rise....

Sorry - I can't see your point no matter how much you try to justify it. And yes, I do use A/C a lot up here in the northeast in the summer....

andy


I disagree. The strength or weakness of the engine is not the issue. The problem is that the alternator is in low output until AFTER the ELD senses the increased load then signals the computer which then signals the alternator to switch to high output. This was done as a fuel savings measure but was not implemented properly on the 2008 and apparently 09 I4 Accords. I had a 2007 I4 EX-L and it did not exhibit this problem, except at low engine speed, like at a stoplight. The 2008's do this at 70 mph on the freeway. You could put a 150 amp alternator on the I4 Accords if you wanted to and likely the problem would disappear. Mileage would decrease, though, but I think most owners of these cars would gladly sacrifice the 0.5 mpg loss to fix the defect.

If you measure the voltage drop on a meter with a fast response time, you will see a drop of about 1.5 volts on the 2008 Accords. You will see none on the 2007 Accord. The 2007 Accord has a less powerful engine than the 08.

My TL does exhibit some light dimming at idle when the fans cut in, but absolutely no dimming at highway speed. Neither does my 1997 T-100, my daughter's 2004 4 cylinder Corolla, my son's 2006 Scion xB (4 cyl), my 1990 Miata (4 cyl) or my wife's Acura RL.

Please stop trying to tell all of us that this defect is normal. Just look at the NHTSA ODI complaints database and try to find a complaint for headlight dimming for ANY vehicle EXCEPT the 2008 and 2009 Accords. The fact that there are no complaints for any Honda other than the Accord speaks volumes.

If Honda would step up to the plate, people would not feel the need to Lemon Law their cars. The fix is probably less than $5 if introduced at the production line. The fact that it is too expensive for Honda to fix on existing cars is not our problem.

Sorry, Mr. Moderator, it appears you do not own a 2008 or 2009 Accord, so I take issue at your contention that this "characterstic" is normal and not a defect. I think if you owned one of these cars, you might feel differently.

other cars probably don't have complaints because they're not brand new, when you're getting used you know its not perfect so why would you complain about it.

it is normal, it has been normal, and always will be normal.

Coincidentally, my wife asked me the other night on the way home why I flashed my lights at an oncoming car. I hadn't.

As I've said before, EVERY car I ever owned (and there have been many) exhibited the dimming of the lights as the AC cycled on and off at idle, in the garage or otherwise parked.

NONE of them exhibited this while on the road... none. THAT'S the only reason this is even an issue to me. That said, it's not a deal breaker, I've never even mentioned it to my dealer, and it's not something that will get me out of the car.... but it is annoying.

other cars probably don't have complaints because they're not brand new, when you're getting used you know its not perfect so why would you complain about it.

it is normal, it has been normal, and always will be normal.

Yes, for the 2008 and 2009 I4 Accord, it is "Normal". For any other Honda, it is a defect.

Again, if you are happy with your Accord, great. Mine annoyed me to the point I would not drive it at night and I finally got rid of it through arbitration.

I don't know why you take this personally. We are not attacking you - we are simply unhappy with the defect on these cars. It doesn't affect you, it won't affect your resale value, but you seem to take our complaints as a personal attack. It is not.

Yes, for the 2008 and 2009 I4 Accord, it is "Normal". For any other Honda, it is a defect.

Again, if you are happy with your Accord, great. Mine annoyed me to the point I would not drive it at night and I finally got rid of it through arbitration.

I don't know why you take this personally. We are not attacking you - we are simply unhappy with the defect on these cars. It doesn't affect you, it won't affect your resale value, but you seem to take our complaints as a personal attack. It is not.

no, its not. what is the date on the letter they give everyone when they come in to complain about it? year 2000? you think they started printing those out 8 years ahead?

no, its not. what is the date on the letter they give everyone when they come in to complain about it? year 2000? you think they started printing those out 8 years ahead?

From the December 2000 Tech News (Acura version)

"Soon after the change from daylight savings time to standard time (the last Sunday in October), Tech Line gets numerous calls about flickering or
dimming headlights or dashlights when brakes or turn signals are used.
This flickering or momentary dimming happens when the battery is supplying most of the electrical load, not the alternator"

Please explain to me how this pertains to driving 70 mph on the freeway without the application of brakes or turn signals. I read this as applying only to low engine speeds like at a stoplight. Further, the battery should not be supplying most of the electrical load at high engine RPM's.

Sorry, this is the argument that the Honda DPSM tried at my Lemon Law hearing and the arbitrators would have none of it. In fact, one asked him why they hadn't been able to fix the problem in 8 years! The poor guy had no answer.

like i said before, there is a way to fix it. but that means you would be disabling the ELD system. think of it as a hybrid car, it works the same way. during take off it is running off the engine or high output on the alternator, once you start cruising it goes into electrical mode or low on the alternator, that switch over causes such a small difference that all it does is dim the headlights, i dont think there is anything more minuscule that could effect the car. it doesnt even turn off all the way, its still plenty of power to see safely out of.

like i said before, there is a way to fix it. but that means you would be disabling the ELD system. think of it as a hybrid car, it works the same way. during take off it is running off the engine or high output on the alternator, once you start cruising it goes into electrical mode or low on the alternator, that switch over causes such a small difference that all it does is dim the headlights, i dont think there is anything more minuscule that could effect the car. it doesnt even turn off all the way, its still plenty of power to see safely out of.

Sure you can disable the ELD. You shouldn't have to fix your new car like this. What will be the effect on the alternator and/or battery? I wonder what Honda would say if you have a warranty issue.

The headlights are not the only thing that dims - the taillights and any other incandescent light on the car dim also. I never stated there was a safety issue, but it was incredibly annoying.

I chose a different solution. A used 2008 Acura TL type S. No dimming lights, no rattles, no oil burning, no bad rear brakes, no vibration problems, no trim panels that don't fit, etc. The only issue is a TSB for the 6 speed (applies to the 6 speed Accords as well), but at least Honda recognized there was a problem and has issued a repair.

Again, if you are happy with your car, great! I wasn't, but I love the Acura. Much better car.

OK, all of you folks - I've gotta get this off my chest, and in all caps since I am shouting:

MOST ANY 4 CYL ENGINE WILL HAVE MORE NOTICIBLE DIMMING HEADLIGHTS DUE TO EXCESS STRAIN OF THE A/C SYSTEM AND COOLING FANS, SINCE THE "OOMPH" TO KEEP THE ALTERNATOR OUTPUT CONSTANT JUST ISN'T THERE. THIS GOES BACK EVEN TO MY 1981 MERCURY LYNX WITH ITS 4 CYL ENGINE. DID THE SAME THING - THEY ALL DO.

OK - I feel better. To the person in GA who got a nicely used TL - congrats - you've got a hot 6 cyl motor that doesn't show the problem to the extent you saw in your Accord - but I'm willing to bet that if you look REAL CLOSE, the lights that aren't HID will dim when the cooling fans kick in - just not as much as you might have seen in your 4 cyl.

I'm still amazed at what some people will try to justify as a 'safety defect' and then get a lemon-law arbitration board to buy - no wonder the cost of vehicles continues to rise....

Sorry - I can't see your point no matter how much you try to justify it. And yes, I do use A/C a lot up here in the northeast in the summer....

andy

STAND BACK, PMCErnie is here! :banana:

andysinnh - Are we now comparing the 1981 MERCURY LYNX 4-cylinder engine to the 2008 Honda Accord 4 cylinder engine?

Also, if we are to do a proof and try to imply that all 4-cylinder engines then that would be difficult.

I do have one contrary case the the statement that "THEY ALL DO." I had a 4-cylinder Saab for many many yrs and never ever experience this occurring.

However, if 1981 MERCURY LYNX = 2008 Honda Accord 4-cylinder, then maybe it should be expected?

P.S. I also consistently got 26 mpg and that was on a turbo.

andysinnh - Are we now comparing the 1981 MERCURY LYNX 4-cylinder engine to the 2008 Honda Accord 4 cylinder engine?

Also, if we are to do a proof and try to imply that all 4-cylinder engines then that would be difficult.

I do have one contrary case the the statement that "THEY ALL DO." I had a 4-cylinder Saab for many many yrs and never ever experience this occurring.

However, if 1981 MERCURY LYNX = 2008 Honda Accord 4-cylinder, then maybe it should be expected?

P.S. I also consistently got 26 mpg and that was on a turbo.
I, too, owned a 4 cyl saab for several years (although I didn't have the privilege of owning a turbo version - this was a 1995 900s) - but if you know saabs very well, you know they over-engineer everything - and my experience with the battery/electrical system was pretty decent. But even in that saab, the lights did dim a bit when the electric radiator kicked in - probably though not as much as an accord with the now infamous ELD on the alternator.

Ah, but your interesting assumption that I'm comparing an 81 Lynx with an '09 Accord jumps to a conclusion that you'd like me to go to, but I'm not. Owning the Lynx showed me that it was as close to a POS as I've ever seen (even brand-spankin' new out of the showroom) - so even that low-end 4-banger dimmed the lights in the same way a high-end 4 cyl accord will - thus the comparison.

Alas, those with the dimming headlights in the '09 model are micro-focused on their vehicles, and that fact I cannot change.

andy

So I have two 08 Honda's at the moment and would like to share my perspective on the electronics performance:

Our Pilot with the 3.5 V6, shows a hint of the dimming but it is at best maybe a 30% drop lasting maybe a 1/3 of a second. It has not been noted to the point of annoying.

My 08 Element is a little different. With the smaller 2.4 4cyl, it has a very noticeable "wink" when the AC kicks in. I really took note recently during some cold rainy days with heavy electrical load (lights, fogs, AC). It even catches me offguard when unloading the kids at night when leaving the car running. It is, I must agree, more noticeable than on previous models I have driven. As I have stated, I have noted the dimming on many cars in the past. But I do have to agree, it's a fraction more pronounced to the point of noticeable to many...obviously too noticeable.
I really think since the system technically performs well (battery remains charged, all systems function) it's a matter of Honda pushing the envelope to gain another mpg or two for the sticker. This reduced margin of tolerance where the ELD is set to wait longer may be to a fault for many.

On a very active thread on an Element forum, they are replacing the ELD's with a new one from Honda. It is not claimed to be anything but a replacement part for around $35 but it seems to completely solve the problem. Some postulate the factory installed ELD's had a bad solder point (mentioned somewhere here, too) that the replacement part seems to replace.
So I'll be doing this myself since it takes all of 15 mins and I don't want an unknown Honda Tech touching the car unless absolutely having to. If it works on the Element, may try it on our Pilot but as mentioned, that one is no big deal in comparison.

Eventually I bet Honda changes this but I also bet we'll be seeing other strange little gremlins across the auto kingdom as the envelope is pushed hard to efficiency.

So I have two 08 Honda's at the moment and would like to share my perspective on the electronics performance:

Our Pilot with the 3.5 V6, shows a hint of the dimming but it is at best maybe a 30% drop lasting maybe a 1/3 of a second. It has not been noted to the point of annoying.

My 08 Element is a little different. With the smaller 2.4 4cyl, it has a very noticeable "wink" when the AC kicks in. I really took note recently during some cold rainy days with heavy electrical load (lights, fogs, AC). It even catches me offguard when unloading the kids at night when leaving the car running. It is, I must agree, more noticeable than on previous models I have driven. As I have stated, I have noted the dimming on many cars in the past. But I do have to agree, it's a fraction more pronounced to the point of noticeable to many...obviously too noticeable.
I really think since the system technically performs well (battery remains charged, all systems function) it's a matter of Honda pushing the envelope to gain another mpg or two for the sticker. This reduced margin of tolerance where the ELD is set to wait longer may be to a fault for many.

On a very active thread on an Element forum, they are replacing the ELD's with a new one from Honda. It is not claimed to be anything but a replacement part for around $35 but it seems to completely solve the problem. Some postulate the factory installed ELD's had a bad solder point (mentioned somewhere here, too) that the replacement part seems to replace.
So I'll be doing this myself since it takes all of 15 mins and I don't want an unknown Honda Tech touching the car unless absolutely having to. If it works on the Element, may try it on our Pilot but as mentioned, that one is no big deal in comparison.

Eventually I bet Honda changes this but I also bet we'll be seeing other strange little gremlins across the auto kingdom as the envelope is pushed hard to efficiency.

If this is true, and Honda is replacing the ELD. Then one would expect a recall for the accord.

why? where is the safety defect?

why? where is the safety defect?

Recall Date:
JUL 26, 2006

Model Affected:
2006 HONDA ODYSSEY

Summary:
ON CERTAIN PASSENGER VEHICLES AND MOTORCYCLES, THE OWNER'S MANUALS CONTAIN INCORRECT CONTACT INFORMATION FOR THE NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION'S (NHTSA) VEHICLE SAFETY HOTLINE.

Consequence:
THE LANGUAGE IN THE OWNER'S MANUALS IS NOT IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE CURRENT MANDATORY REQUIREMENTS.

Remedy:
HONDA WILL SEND A POSTCARD TO DEALERS AND OWNERS WITH THE CORRECT NHTSA VEHICLE SAFETY HOTLINE INFORMATION AND WITH INSTRUCTIONS TO INSERT THE CARD INTO THE "REPORTING SAFETY DEFECTS" SECTION OF THE OWNER'S MANUAL. THE RECALL BEGAN ON AUGUST 2, 2006. OWNERS MAY CONTACT HONDA AT 1-800-999-1009, ACURA AT 1-800-382-2238 OR HONDA MOTORCYCLES AT 1-866-784-1870.

Potential Units Affected:
1190000

Notes:
HONDA (AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO.)

Boy - incorrect information printed in the owners manual worthy of a RECALL!

I guess the dimming headlights are just an imaginary problem.

Standing by for the abuse.

whats incorrect information for NHTSA hotline number have to do with headlight dimming.

whats incorrect information for NHTSA hotline number have to do with headlight dimming.

The issue was that a Recall was issued for some incorrect information in the owners manual. Not safety related information - like incorrect tire pressure - but simply the number for the NHTSA hotline.

My point to the previous poster who asked "why? where is the safety defect? " pertaining to the defect in the ELD system was that there have been many recalls for items much less important than a defect in the electrical system of a car.

Some of you think the defective ELD system is not worthy of any attention by anyone, including Honda or the NHTSA. I disagree. Although I am not aware of any accidents or injuries occurring as a result, I doubt there were any as a result of the incorrect phone number in the owners manual of the 2006 Odyssey - but that misprint resulted in a RECALL!

ok..other than this unique "'recall" of the books, recalls are manadated byu the government when somebody has the very real potential to get hurt..or a rash of people have already got hurt from the product deficiency (like a loose seat belt anchor mount)...not a design anomaly that at most has given a few people a migraine, I guess...the simple fact is until people are getting hurt, there will be no recall.....

Now, on the other hand, should AHM do a voluntary service "action"? - that's up for debate. They will have to weigh how much it will cost to get EVERY car back in for a 30-40 min upgrade vs buying a few back. I'll bet they keep buying 'em back until they can change it on the next gen/facelift of product. I would.

ok..other than this unique "'recall" of the books, recalls are manadated byu the government when somebody has the very real potential to get hurt..or a rash of people have already got hurt from the product deficiency (like a loose seat belt anchor mount)...not a design anomaly that at most has given a few people a migraine, I guess...the simple fact is until people are getting hurt, there will be no recall.....

Now, on the other hand, should AHM do a voluntary service "action"? - that's up for debate. They will have to weigh how much it will cost to get EVERY car back in for a 30-40 min upgrade vs buying a few back. I'll bet they keep buying 'em back until they can change it on the next gen/facelift of product. I would.

I don't know how unique this particular recall is. I found it in about 5 minutes of searching. I expect there may be more like it, but my point to the poster was that recalls are not always for safety defects.

I do not believe this problem will be solved by an update to the PCM code, hence the change of heart by Honda - from "we're working on the fix" to "it's a normal characteristic".

I agree with your assessment, however. It is cheaper to buy a few of these cars back and sell them at wholesale (if allowed by the particular state) than to issue a TSB that might have to be performed on a few hundred thousand cars. The owners of the cars that find the "characteristic" unacceptable are really the ones that suffer. If only I had known beforehand....

I don't know how unique this particular recall is. I found it in about 5 minutes of searching. I expect there may be more like it, but my point to the poster was that recalls are not always for safety defects.

I do not believe this problem will be solved by an update to the PCM code, hence the change of heart by Honda - from "we're working on the fix" to "it's a normal characteristic".

I agree with your assessment, however. It is cheaper to buy a few of these cars back and sell them at wholesale (if allowed by the particular state) than to issue a TSB that might have to be performed on a few hundred thousand cars. The owners of the cars that find the "characteristic" unacceptable are really the ones that suffer. If only I had known beforehand....

As KP has stated ..If I knew of this "normal charactertisic" before i bought the car it would have never entered my life.

If you read the warranty book you received when you bought your car you will see that in certain states if the owner wins through arbitration, the car cannot even be wholesaled to any person or dealer. It becomes a honda owned vehicle to be used by them (hopefully to find a way to fix the headlights) for testing crash dummies or whatever.

My video on "youtube" has now had over 725 views and I'm sure Honda knows about it. Perspective buyers are watching it and hopefully making an intelligent decision about purchasing the car.

I would like to pose a question to the other people on this forum..if the salesman told you about this "normal characteristic" before you bought your car would you have proceeded with the purchase? I think not.

Honda will issue a recall on a wrong phone number that anyone could find on the internet but not on a recoginized safety issue...unbelievable.

if a salesperson told me about it and even went so far as to show me the characteristic, it would not have deterred my purchase....period...it's a big deal to some, and not to others...I acknowledge that it's there, but don't consider that AHM is pulling some huge scam on their customers like some would like to push here....I doubt you'll be able to whip the Honda customer base into a frenzy on this..if it truly bothers you, press yours to get bought back and buy something else like KP did....That's what Lemon laws are for.....

and I've solved the flicker with a real batt, and the a/c dip is reduced to a level I can live with, ....so I really don't novice anything anyway....

if a salesperson told me about it and even went so far as to show me the characteristic, it would not have deterred my purchase....period...it's a big deal to some, and not to others...I acknowledge that it's there, but don't consider that AHM is pulling some huge scam on their customers like some would like to push here....I doubt you'll be able to whip the Honda customer base into a frenzy on this..if it truly bothers you, press yours to get bought back and buy something else like KP did....That's what Lemon laws are for.....

Glen.. I have had car in the process since October. My application to the arbitration board was just approved and the date should be set shortly. I can't think of one person on this forum that ever said honda was pulling a scam..but from an engineering standpoint this is not right. At last count I have owned over 30 cars, 6 motorcycles and none of them have ever had this problem.

I agree it's not right....it IS an engineering design gone amuck..., a noble idea not executed well. But it will not get cleared up by Honda until the next Gen. For those that can't wait or it really bugs them, AHM will settle. I'm sure they'll take you out of the car, take it to auction, disclose the reason they bought it back, lose a few thou, and the next customer will probably not notice it.

BMW has had the exact same problem in the past on 3 series with front end steering shake and tire noise.....perceptible (and important) to some, and not to others...

I agree it's not right....it IS an engineering design gone amuck..., a noble idea not executed well. But it will not get cleared up by Honda until the next Gen. For those that can't wait or it really bugs them, AHM will settle. I'm sure they'll take you out of the car, take it to auction, disclose the reason they bought it back, lose a few thou, and the next customer will probably not notice it.

BMW has had the exact same problem in the past on 3 series with front end steering shake and tire noise.....perceptible (and important) to some, and not to others...

Thanks for the kind response...and by the way you are the only person I know of that knows what REJEX is..great stuff use it on the bikes esp. in love bug season.

good luck in your arbitration.....just got a note from the inventor of Rejex...his recc for brake dust was 3 coats at least 8 hours apart and let it sit before buffing off for an hour...so far the hose cleans the wheel...I'm very happy....

Thanks for the kind response...and by the way you are the only person I know of that knows what REJEX is..great stuff use it on the bikes esp. in love bug season.

I believe it was developed first for airplanes. We use it on the leading edges of our planes - where the bugs collect. Also where the exhaust exits - small airplanes have a fairly dirty exhaust and use much more oil than most cars.

You're right - it is great stuff.

Their CorrosionX is even better for protecting metals. I also use it on battery terminals and it works wonders - especially on golf cart batteries that are not maintenance free and off gas a lot.

I believe it was developed first for airplanes. We use it on the leading edges of our planes - where the bugs collect. Also where the exhaust exits - small airplanes have a fairly dirty exhaust and use much more oil than most cars.

You're right - it is great stuff.

Their CorrosionX is even better for protecting metals. I also use it on battery terminals and it works wonders - especially on golf cart batteries that are not maintenance free and off gas a lot.

Well KP you are now the second person I know that knows what REJEX is ...and that doesn't surprise me. You are abslutely right about its use on leading edges of aircraft wings for bugs.
i also use a product called BOESHIELD T-9 made by Boeing. It's like a super WD40.

http://www.rejex.com/

http://www.boeshield.com/

Two great products.

One more I forgot to tell you folks about

http://www.303products.com/

303 windshield wiper treatment is the best..two swipes and the streaking and chattering disappears.

So I have two 08 Honda's at the moment and would like to share my perspective on the electronics performance:

Our Pilot with the 3.5 V6, shows a hint of the dimming but it is at best maybe a 30% drop lasting maybe a 1/3 of a second. It has not been noted to the point of annoying.

My 08 Element is a little different. With the smaller 2.4 4cyl, it has a very noticeable "wink" when the AC kicks in. I really took note recently during some cold rainy days with heavy electrical load (lights, fogs, AC). It even catches me offguard when unloading the kids at night when leaving the car running. It is, I must agree, more noticeable than on previous models I have driven. As I have stated, I have noted the dimming on many cars in the past. But I do have to agree, it's a fraction more pronounced to the point of noticeable to many...obviously too noticeable.
I really think since the system technically performs well (battery remains charged, all systems function) it's a matter of Honda pushing the envelope to gain another mpg or two for the sticker. This reduced margin of tolerance where the ELD is set to wait longer may be to a fault for many.

On a very active thread on an Element forum, they are replacing the ELD's with a new one from Honda. It is not claimed to be anything but a replacement part for around $35 but it seems to completely solve the problem. Some postulate the factory installed ELD's had a bad solder point (mentioned somewhere here, too) that the replacement part seems to replace.
So I'll be doing this myself since it takes all of 15 mins and I don't want an unknown Honda Tech touching the car unless absolutely having to. If it works on the Element, may try it on our Pilot but as mentioned, that one is no big deal in comparison.

Eventually I bet Honda changes this but I also bet we'll be seeing other strange little gremlins across the auto kingdom as the envelope is pushed hard to efficiency.


Please let us know how to get a hold of the part and photos of the replacement would be great!

Thank you again, as I like the auto, but just not at night.

Cheers!

P.S. Evidently there is a Florida statute that states that it is illegal to flash your lights.

Title XXIII, chapter 316, rule 2397, subsection 7, to be precise. "Flashing lights are prohibited on vehicles except as a means of indicating a right or left turn, to change lanes, or to indicate that the vehicle is lawfully stopped or disabled upon the highway" Not sure if this effects things, but there might also be a similar statue/law in your state. I guess you could be ticketed for the "normal" Honda Accord flash/blink. Would Honda pick up the ticket?

sorry to derail...

It was actually developed for jet engines in avaiation to keep the turbine fan blades clean of insects. About a year ago I got the email of the inventor of Rejex - a guy named Ed - he answers all my questions on the stuff. We use it extensively in the marine trade as salt slides right off anything you apply it to. It is especially good for outboard motor cowls...it is important to apply it 12 hours apart as it "cures".

And Boeshield T-9 was invented by Boeing for mothballing airplanes. It';s great for assemblies that are not going to move or being taken apart as it leaves a thick waxy film to protect. I use it on terminal blocks and things that are permanent. For things like motors and moving parts, Corr X is better as it protects but leaves little residue. Techs like it much better in this application.

Here is what I found in the Alabama State Code (my take away that flashing/dimming headlights are not permitted):

http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/32-5-241.htm

Section 32-5-241
Additional permissible lights on vehicles.

(4) Flashing lights may be used on motor vehicles as a means of indicating a right or left turn; a stop lamp may pulsate with different intensities provided that it meets at all intensities the provisions of subdivision (2) of subsection (b) of this section; and the warning lights on emergency vehicles may flash.

(b) (2) A stop lamp shall be plainly visible and understandable from a distance of 100 feet to the rear both during normal sunlight and at nighttime and a signal lamp or lamps indicating intention to turn shall be visible and understandable during daytime and nighttime from a distance of 100 feet both to the front and rear. When a vehicle is equipped with a stop lamp or other signal lamps, such lamp or lamps shall at all times be maintained in good working condition. No stop lamp or signal lamp shall project a glaring or dazzling light.

P.S. Evidently there is a Florida statute that states that it is illegal to flash your lights.

Title XXIII, chapter 316, rule 2397, subsection 7, to be precise. "Flashing lights are prohibited on vehicles except as a means of indicating a right or left turn, to change lanes, or to indicate that the vehicle is lawfully stopped or disabled upon the highway" Not sure if this effects things, but there might also be a similar statue/law in your state. I guess you could be ticketed for the "normal" Honda Accord flash/blink. Would Honda pick up the ticket?

Hey HoneyGee - here is another page for your presentation to the arbitration board.

Might make for a reasonable argument that you CANNOT drive your car at night in Florida!

The easier way to get your car bought back in florida is just show that the dealer (or diff dealers) have tried to fix the problem 3 times in one year and has failed. That's the Florida law. AHM then has one more chance to fix it themselves. When they can't, no questions asked, it's bought back. I know of one car bought back for squeaky wipers that way. It's not even a discussion - 3 repair orders within one year showing "no fix" and you're good to go.

Hey HoneyGee - here is another page for your presentation to the arbitration board.

Might make for a reasonable argument that you CANNOT drive your car at night in Florida!

Also say that the flashing lights happen to the turn signals as well. (this is what the law is used for turn signals not to duplicate cops)

The easier way to get your car bought back in florida is just show that the dealer (or diff dealers) have tried to fix the problem 3 times in one year and has failed. That's the Florida law. AHM then has one more chance to fix it themselves. When they can't, no questions asked, it's bought back. I know of one car bought back for squeaky wipers that way. It's not even a discussion - 3 repair orders within one year showing "no fix" and you're good to go.


Honda says this is "NORMAL" thus it is not a repairable problem.Trying 3 fixes wont work , since there is no "problem" to begin with.

You guys are amazing as to the lengths you'll go to support your point about this "light dimming" violating state laws/statutes. Simply amazing. :thumbsdow

Honda says this is "NORMAL" thus it is not a repairable problem.Trying 3 fixes wont work , since there is no "problem" to begin with.

it does not matter what Honda says....try it...mostly any problem PERCEIVED by the customer is good enuf.......for arbitration. All you have to do in Florida is complain that the fault has messed with the value, use or safety of the vehicle. So any of these will get you a check:

1. Use: " I can't drive it because it gives me a migraine" (or keeps you from concetrating on being a good driver)
2. Safety: " It interferes with other drivers, etc" - (spoken about above)
3. Value: I can't sell this car with this defect, it will affect my resale value (probably used the most)

I have held the checkbook for the mfr in at least 50 arbitrations...believe me, the above work if the customer has good docs that the dealer has tried and failed to fix the complaint. Note this is just Florida but check with a barrister, I'll bet most states are the same. As I was a also rep in Texas, they are practically the same there.

Don't confuse lemon law with recalls - two totally diff animals...

:banana: changed the battery in my 2008 I4 acord coupe EX with 8023 KM,s to an Exide Advantage Nascar 78DT after about 2days no lights flickering at night when AC /fans cycling and put the Honda battery in my '03 Corolla.

no lights flickering at night when AC /fans cycling

OK, you couldn't possibly need AC anywhere in Canada this time of the year! :D

You guys are amazing as to the lengths you'll go to support your point about this "light dimming" violating state laws/statutes. Simply amazing. :thumbsdow

You don't own an 08 or 09 I4 Accord. Buy one and then you can condemn us. Better yet, lobby your state representatives to have the Lemon Laws repealed.

Maybe you can be Honda's "Expert Witness" at the Lemon Law arbitration hearings to defend how "normal" the "characteristic" is.

You don't own an 08 or 09 I4 Accord. Buy one and then you can condemn us. Better yet, lobby your state representatives to have the Lemon Laws repealed.

Maybe you can be Honda's "Expert Witness" at the Lemon Law arbitration hearings to defend how "normal" the "characteristic" is.
yeah, because you know you're the expert and an electrical engineer:rolleyes:

Folks,

Please calm down, this thread was going quite civil and now risks getting ugly.

Please do not add more fuel to the fire with sarcasms and snips at each other.

Perhaps we should just shut the thread down now that we've heard both sides, plus from those who seem to have solved their problems with a heavier duty battery.

I say we shut it before I say something more.....:yes: And I'm a moderator, so you can tell that even sometimes us mods get mixed up in these things...:censored:

I'm not sure you should shut it down... people might create new threads about this popular topic.

theres about 3 more on this same subject.

Kudos to the mods here for asking for civility. This is nothing to get snippy about - save that for the Dino vs Synthetic threads (LOL).

What we know:

1.The problem exists, but 90% solved by an adult battery
2.If it bugs you that much, get litigatin' - AHM will probably take you out of the car, they want you happy.
3. It won't be a recall as it's a minor nuisance for most, not a safety defect that will injure people, and will most likely get cleared up when Honda has budget for a redesign of the car (9th gen) (IMO)

So let's get back to the important issues of the day...Black or PMM?

Folks,

Please calm down, this thread was going quite civil and now risks getting ugly.

Please do not add more fuel to the fire with sarcasms and snips at each other.

Perhaps we should just shut the thread down now that we've heard both sides, plus from those who seem to have solved their problems with a heavier duty battery.

My apologies to all for my lack of civility. I was particularly set off by the moderator's post and I responded inappropriately.

yeah, because you know you're the expert and an electrical engineer:rolleyes:

I never claimed to be the expert. I have received calls, PM's and e-mails from Florida, Alabama, Texas, Utah and Canada asking for help and advice for Lemon Law and arbitration issues. I have been through the process in Georgia and had my Accord bought back.

Actually, I am an Aerospace Engineer and I've stayed at a Holiday Inn Express many times. :lmao:

Maybe we can agree to disagree on the relative merits of the Lemon Law and whether or not the dimming headlights are worthy of a buyback.

A final parting shot as my last post to this forum -

Amsoil over dinosaur oil anyday. I picked Carbon Bronze Pearl for the Acura.:wave:

Folks,

Please calm down, this thread was going quite civil and now risks getting ugly.

Please do not add more fuel to the fire with sarcasms and snips at each other.

Perhaps we should just shut the thread down now that we've heard both sides, plus from those who seem to have solved their problems with a heavier duty battery.

Aviography,

I think we can all get along :grouphug:

If possible it would be great to keep it alive and see how the battery fix and ELD replacement work out. Sounds like springer and the post on replacing the ELD may be on to something. Maybe a in a couple of weeks they can follow up and let us know if the flashing/dimming/blinking is still gone.

Would be great if dedicated Honda owners can find a solution to a problem Honda can't seem to solve and help the rest of us out for the car we all know and love.

Thanks.

I'm OK with keeping this open, and seeing what happens. And I'll keep my personal views to myself. My issue is not in supporting Honda, but rather to observe how some view the Arbitration process and what sorts of issues get brought to bear in those situations. Perhaps I weigh these things much differently than others - worry about the things that are really important. And as a final thought to the earlier reply about the results of an arbitration decision not impacting the "value" of my vehicle. The real issue is the ultimate cost of vehicles over time as more and more arbitration cases like these are resolved just to keep customers happy - it will impact the cost of the next new one I buy to some extent due to mfg costs to cover arbitration resolutions.

I'll have to admit I thought about this thread this weekend as I was in the kitchen, and saw the lights dim then brighten, as our dryer downstairs cycled the gas ignitor off and on during a normal cycle. And this was a Bosch dryer that's rated #1 in many reviews - hmmm - should I pursue?

But that's it for this topic for me...

andy

I'm OK with keeping this open, and seeing what happens. And I'll keep my personal views to myself. My issue is not in supporting Honda, but rather to observe how some view the Arbitration process and what sorts of issues get brought to bear in those situations. Perhaps I weigh these things much differently than others - worry about the things that are really important. And as a final thought to the earlier reply about the results of an arbitration decision not impacting the "value" of my vehicle. The real issue is the ultimate cost of vehicles over time as more and more arbitration cases like these are resolved just to keep customers happy - it will impact the cost of the next new one I buy to some extent due to mfg costs to cover arbitration resolutions.

I'll have to admit I thought about this thread this weekend as I was in the kitchen, and saw the lights dim then brighten, as our dryer downstairs cycled the gas ignitor off and on during a normal cycle. And this was a Bosch dryer that's rated #1 in many reviews - hmmm - should I pursue?

But that's it for this topic for me...

andy

If your dryer cycled on and off every 17 seconds and dimmed your lights would that cause any concern?

About honda customer satisfaction, honda won't settle to keep the customers happy. They have had the opportunity to do that with KP and myself. I personally gave honda many choices that would have benefitted them instead of me and they refused all offers. One offer I made was to exchange it for a 6 cylinder and I would pay the difference on the MSRP and pay for the mileage on the present car and they refused. I offered to sign a letter of confidentiality that I would tell no one about the transaction and they refused. Now they are being FORCED to buy back the cars according to state lemon laws. Big difference in my book.

I'm sure KP and myself would like to share the arbitration process with those who would like to have it. If you think its easy try it yourself. It takes time and tenacity to complete the process. People who normally persue that option do it for a real reason not a perceived one. If it was a perceived reason the gatekeeper in Georgia would reject it immediately. I know I have spoken with the rep personally on many occasions.

If you want to close the forum go right ahead but you will depriving future owners of the information available after the closing as more and more people go to arbitration.

May I also remind you that in some states, if the car is a lemon law car it cannot be resold either at auction or wholesale. The title won't allow it and now honda has a car to use to solve the problem which they should have done 15 months ago.

no - the title must be "branded", but it can be sold somewhere in their network...and I misspoke - it may PERCEIVED by all, but some perceive it as a problem....

:banana: changed the battery in my 2008 I4 acord coupe EX with 8023 KM,s to an Exide Advantage Nascar 78DT after about 2days no lights flickering at night when AC /fans cycling and put the Honda battery in my '03 Corolla.


I have an 03 Corolla as well. Never had a flicker -ever. Also the battery in it is twice the size of the Accord's. Go figure.

I filed this issue with the BBB Autoline and here is the response from Honda:
"American Honda has reviewed the history of the vehicle with the servicing dealership, Jerry Damson. According to the information provided, the consumer's contention is a normal vehicle characteristic due to the changes in electrical loads while the car is running. No repairs have been made. American Honda is not offering voluntary repurchase or replacement at this time."

Any information that could be useful regarding potentially being pulled over for flashing/blinking headlights in Alabama is much appreciated.

I plan to bring up that I am concerned about the electronics being damaged that are connected to the same circuit as the headlights. I plan to discuss the this since most people have a UPC connected to their computers at work or home and understand their importance. That is, the UPC does not just provide power should the power go out, but it also conditions the power going to the computer to prevent unwanted "dirty" power that will prematurely age the circuitry of the computer.

I also plan to mention that a police officer said I could be pulled over and given a citation for faulty equipment on the automobile and would be held responsible for the citation.

Any news on the replacement battery or replacing the ELD working out? Hope those end up working long term for the folks who went that route.

I plan to bring up that I am concerned about the electronics being damaged that are connected to the same circuit as the headlights. I plan to discuss the this since most people have a UPC connected to their computers at work or home and understand their importance. That is, the UPC does not just provide power should the power go out, but it also conditions the power going to the computer to prevent unwanted "dirty" power that will prematurely age the circuitry of the computer.

Did you mean UPS? Uninterruptable Power Supply? UPS for the most part is a standby power supply in case the municiple power goes away completely, it also clips higher than normal voltages coming into the household by using components such as Metal Oxide Varistors to provide surge suppresion, a drop (not a full loss) of voltage is called a brown-out and is usually not protected until the voltage drop becomes significant. The oscillation of voltage observed in the I-4 Accord is not to the same severity.

Anyway there was a short discussion in one of the other headligh dimming threads where both myself and another forum member who is an electrical engineer had explained that the minor voltage variation in the I-4 Accord is highly unlikely to have any effect on the longevity of the electronic components in the vehicle since the (near) 12VDC is regulated down to 5 volts DC or maybe even lower for the electronics.

I also plan to mention that a police officer said I could be pulled over and given a citation for faulty equipment on the automobile and would be held responsible for the citation.

How did you hear this from the police officer? Did you ask him or did he see your dimming headlights? If you just asked him, did you correctly explain to him that this is a very minor dimming only ONCE and ONLY when the A/C compressor or cooling fan engages? It's not as if the dimming is significant (i.e. headlight full on then full off) and is occuring every second or every half second on a continuous basis.

Any news on the replacement battery or replacing the ELD working out? Hope those end up working long term for the folks who went that route.

Yes, while no no one has replaced ELD to fix this issue, over the other thread where glen_e replaced his battery with a high CCA marine battery, and his dimming problem went away, so did another member who bought a higher CCA automotive battery and in his observation the problem has been resolved.

Aviography,

I really appreciate the response and correction.

I had a typographical error in my post above. I should have stated UPS instead of UPC. If you can provide a link to the other post discussing the electronic circuits involved I would greatly appreciate it.

Regarding, "correctly explain to him that this is a very minor dimming only ONCE and ONLY when the A/C compressor or cooling fan engages", maybe my case of dimming/flashing is more severe than for others. My headlights appear to flash, e.g. involuntarily blink your eyes while driving. Thus, my headlight flashing is a very distinct occurrence. This happens numerous times along my 20 mile drive to work. I've counted as many as 5-6 distinct times this has happen on one trip. On this trip each occurrence was while I was driving at least 45 mph or greater. I did not count the flashing while sitting at stop lights. Now multiply 6 (flashings per trip) *5 (work days per week) *50 (weeks worked per year) = 1500 per year. That means I will be subjected to as many as 1500 distinct flash for just trips home from work. This does not include long trips or weekend driving.

Regarding the battery approach - I would like to know over time if this approach to the problem holds up. That is, does any degradation due to the age of the battery cause the flashing problem to come back? How long does this customer provided patch to the problem work? It seemed like the ELD would offer a bit of a longer term solution to the Honda blinking/flashing problem, so I was interested in some of the details regarding that customer funded fix of the blinking/flashing problem.

Thanks again for any further electronic posting information you can provide. It is very greatly appreciated as I learn more about the problem.

JustADude,

Here's the thread http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26170

As for how many times the lights dim/blink/flash etc., the point I am trying to make is that a cop has mcuh better things to do with their time then to go after someone whose lights blinks once ever so often, i.e. you said it blinked 5-6 times over 20 miles, so it blinked once every 3 miles at the most? That's hardly a reason a cop will come after you to issue a ticket!

It would be different if the lights continues to blink on/dim once per second for extended periods of time, THEN the cop will certainly come after you, but if this was really the situation then Honda would have no choice but to fix the ELD characterstics properly, a long time ago.

Overall, as I've stated elsewhere, I am sympathtic that this behavour is extremely annoying, but I do have to speak out if and when folks blows this out of proportion into a feeding frenzy of "electroncis in the car will blow up", or "cops will come after me to give me a hefty ticket"!

i agree, much ado about nothing, just noticed it also happens on maz P5, and i may get more CC amp battery when it's time for replacement. i doubt it does anything other then annoy owners.

and 1 smaller battery + 1 big battery is prolly cheaper then all accords w/ 1 big battery

pennies count in the big picture.

Aviography,

Regarding the battery approach - I would like to know over time if this approach to the problem holds up. That is, does any degradation due to the age of the battery cause the flashing problem to come back? How long does this customer provided patch to the problem work?

The batt I used was 4 YEARS OLD....and it solved the problem unless I point my car at a garage door and look for the A/c kick in...the flicker during a drive is gone and the kick-in is reduced substantially from using the Honda toy battery.
I still find it odd that Honda engineers gave you a regular batt tray but shoved a plastic filler in it and installed a mini batt. If they thought the 410 cca was enuf (like Honda says) why not a mini tray? The largest battery ever needed fits perfectly with no mods needed except fora new cross bracket.

cuz 2 diff trays + 2 cross bracket prolly cost more then 1 tray and cross adaptor w/ a adaptor.

1 small batt. and 1 big batt. is cheaper then all big batt in all accords.

pennies count in the big picture


and the # of complaints is very minimal

cuz 2 diff trays + 2 cross bracket prolly cost more then 1 tray and cross adaptor w/ a adaptor.

1 small batt. and 1 big batt. is cheaper then all big batt in all accords.

pennies count in the big picture


and the # of complaints is very minimal

BS..both batts -->the v-6 and the I4 are too small and don't use the total tray...next excuse?

I've read through the many pages of this thread. Have we decided that a larger battery is the answer to the light flicker?

If so, what parts do you need from the V6 Accord?

Same question as jrath1.

Which battery is it that "fixes" the "flicker" problem?

Have a little time this weekend and may try to pick one up.

Thanks again.

Same question as jrath1.

Which battery is it that "fixes" the "flicker" problem?

Have a little time this weekend and may try to pick one up.

Thanks again.

Don't waste your money..its a voltage problem not an amperage problem...volts drive the amps..

when you have lots of reserve and amps you have lots of volts - like over 12.8 - then you have reduced flickeing - it's that simple. Get a 750-800 CCA STARTING batt type and try it. The AC dim will still be there as that's in the PCM, (but reduced) and the flickering will be gone.Ask anyone who owns a yellow top optima...

when you have lots of reserve and amps you have lots of volts - like over 12.8 - then you have reduced flickeing - it's that simple. Get a 750-800 CCA STARTING batt type and try it. The AC dim will still be there as that's in the PCM, (but reduced) and the flickering will be gone.Ask anyone who owns a yellow top optima...

Glen from my testing on my car the voltage stays at 14.25 while the car is running with the A/C off..once it cycles on the voltage drop goes to 12.99 which causes the flicker. Thats because the ELD doesnt detect the draw until after the draw has happened. All honda has to do to fix the problem is microprocess a switch into the system to allow the ELD to compensate for the voltage a nanosecond before the system calls for it. Amperage will not affect voltage. This is why there has been talk of cars in the future going to 24 or even 32 volt systems. Remember when we had 6 volt systems. Picture the volts as a garden hose with 1/2 inch diameter..you can only push through so much water no matter what the pressure..increase the hose to 5/8 diameter and the flow almost doubles. This is why power plants in the northeast during summer brownouts only lower the voltage by 5%..even though its ac power anything lower than 5% will start to burn out electrical motors in air conditioning and refrigerationsystems.

OK, you couldn't possibly need AC anywhere in Canada this time of the year! :D

cooling fans and ac compressor still cycle any time of the year in CANADA: with defroster on:biggrin:

I have stated above that the a/c kick in still happens with a stronger batt. But the flicker on smaller things like flashers, use of power windows and general flicker I had with the smaller batt, are gone with the reg batt. That's it plain and simple. The a/c kick in is less of an abrupt occurrence with a stronger batt though.

cooling fans and ac compressor still cycle any time of the year in CANADA: with defroster on:biggrin:

(Note, way off topic)

Ah, the switch for the front windshield is not defrost only, it's defog in the sumer time.

I manually switch off the AC portion after hitting the "defrost/defog" button in the winter time unless I actually have fog on the inside surface of the windshield, makes no sense to engage the AC to pump cold air when it's already frigging cold.

I really don't understand why Honda couldn't program the ambient temperature into the logic so that the AC compressor doesn't engage in the winer time.

I am fine with the AC come on in the sumer time since it's the fog accumulation on the inside of the windshield that is the issue, so the AC will remove the moisture in the air which will then dry out the inside of the windshield, perfect!

But the frost is usually not on the inside of the windshield in the winter time, right? So you don't want to add any more cold air to the little amount of warm air you are trying to direct to the windshield to melt the frost on the outside of the windshield, right?

Plus in general the outside air has less humidity in the winter time so once again there is no need to engage AC in the winter time when the defog/defrost switch is pressed.

The system I like the best is still the super fine wire heating element embedded into the front windshield as was in the Ford Mondeo rental car I had in Denmark, works like magic and fast too since it doesn't need the car to be warmed up first to be effective, ice layer literally slide right off the windshield by the time I cleaned off the side windows!

... voltage stays at 14.25 while the car is running with the A/C off..once it cycles on the voltage drop goes to 12.99 which causes the flicker. ...lower the voltage by 5%..even though its ac power anything lower than 5% will start to burn out electrical motors in air conditioning and refrigerationsystems.

Is there any possibility the apparent 10% drop in the DC voltage on the Accord will cause damage to any of the electrical components on the car?

I'm nowhere near electrically proficient, so I don't really have a feel for such things.

Thanks again.

Is there any possibility the apparent 10% drop in the DC voltage on the Accord will cause damage to any of the electrical components on the car?

I'm nowhere near electrically proficient, so I don't really have a feel for such things.

Thanks again.

See post 157 of this thread, and http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=26170 where there are a couple of posts (one by myself) discussing this particular aspect.

Is there any possibility the apparent 10% drop in the DC voltage on the Accord will cause damage to any of the electrical components on the car?

I dont think anyone has a definitive answer to that question because the cars havent been in existence long enough. Although it affects the lights at night I'm sure the voltage drop occurs while the lights are off and the A/C cycles on and off.
In theory if the voltage drop happens every 30 seconds (and it does see my video on youtube) and you average 30 mph over 100000 miles you will have about 400000 cycles of the system assuming you use the A/C all the time like I do in florida. What the effect on the car's other electronics will be I haven't a clue but I don't think it can be good.

Is there any possibility the apparent 10% drop in the DC voltage on the Accord will cause damage to any of the electrical components on the car?

I dont think anyone has a definitive answer to that question because the cars havent been in existence long enough. Although it affects the lights at night I'm sure the voltage drop occurs while the lights are off and the A/C cycles on and off.
In theory if the voltage drop happens every 30 seconds (and it does see my video on youtube) and you average 30 mph over 100000 miles you will have about 400000 cycles of the system assuming you use the A/C all the time like I do in florida. What the effect on the car's other electronics will be I haven't a clue but I don't think it can be good.
i can answer that for you, i have a voltage monitor. most cars will start off in 15v for a healthy battery and could dip as low as 13v.
and as you know by the paper honda has given stating its been happening since 2000. well, there are no electrical issuses with any honda's that have been experiencing it, including my acura cl which was 11 years old when i traded it in.

Well we are back to the same question that I have asked since day one...why does this problem only apply to 4 cylinder 2008 and now 2009 accords...no other car ever manufactured by honda has racked up the complaints that this model has. NHTSA.GOV 2008 honda accord 220 registered complaints...2008 Camry 39 complaints., not counting all the postings on this forum. If the problem doesn't exist don't you think honda would have issued an updated bulletin about the car instead of relying on a info sheet from nov 2000. stating thats its normal. As Katana Pilot has proven honda would rather buy the cars back than fix them.

80% of the filed complaints on NHTSA concerning 2009 accords deal with the light issue.

well they cant really fix it, and if someone isnt satified with their product they're not gonna just sit there and hear about it. they probably bought it back just so they dont have to hear it anymore.

well they cant really fix it, and if someone isnt satified with their product they're not gonna just sit there and hear about it. they probably bought it back just so they dont have to hear it anymore.

Quite to the contrary..its fixable but it would cost honda millions to recall every accord ...if you knew the process for arbitration you would see why so few car owners go that far. Believe me honda has stonewalled me from Nov 2007 about the problem..but being very tenancious I have gotten my arbitration date of Feb 17th. I'll let you all know how it turns out. Since I have the exact same model and problem that KP had I have confidence in winning my case.

i have no doubt that you'll win, but i don't think they can fix it without compromising the alternator for saving that 1-2MPG. and the fact that only a handful of people care about it enough to get rid of the accord compared to the 300,000+ accords they sold in 2008.

iand the fact that only a handful of people care about it enough to get rid of the accord compared to the 300,000+ accords they sold in 2008.

truer words were never more spoken...bugs some but not enuf to issue some service update...buy back the ones it bugs and get on with business...I changed my batt not for the flickering, just did not want to be running aorund with 410 cca....the less flicker was an added bonus...

I'm sure the next gen will not flicker....

i have no doubt that you'll win, but i don't think they can fix it without compromising the alternator for saving that 1-2MPG. and the fact that only a handful of people care about it enough to get rid of the accord compared to the 300,000+ accords they sold in 2008.


You are exactly right...they won't fix it because the 4 cylinder accord is the bread and butter car in their lineup and that 1-2 mpg difference that the ELD affords honda lets them keep their CAFE average higher so they can sell more lower mpg cars,trucks, and minivans. It also lets them put a mpg sticker on the window that matches Camry. Some people perceive it as a safety issue some don't, I do.

i have no doubt that you'll win, but i don't think they can fix it without compromising the alternator for saving that 1-2MPG. and the fact that only a handful of people care about it enough to get rid of the accord compared to the 300,000+ accords they sold in 2008.
I think there are few ways to limit it a lot from whats there, but that also depends on some test results.
The main issue I see is 2 large fans coming online with ac.
1) does both need to be on, is condenser temp high were it needs 2 fans ?. espeically at 40+mph. so one idea with have temp sensor on condenser .
2) since 1 is a bit work and would need some electronic module to control it a simplier fix might just be a delayed relay on 1 fan, so both don't get trigger at exact smae time, would give load a slower slope, less of a spike as thats what you really noticing.

now, those that have EXL with the issue, if you turn on say rear defroster and heated seats and then hit AC does it spike, cause the ELD should be in high mode already and if so its probably just alternator/batery combo thats issue

I can do flickering lights at a standstill and something else turns on but while going down the highway without the AC or defrost on and really other than the factory radio tuned to FM the lights shouldn't flicker.

Has anyone had a long visual video proving a larger battery fixes this issue?

I think they use the small battery to "make weight" i.e. the smaller battery (and mini spare) and other lightweight things all contribute to the overall mileage metric. I think once you have the car, Honda could give a rat's a** how big a battery you put on it as long as they got their mileage metric due to low weight. When mine goes out I'm going to get the biggest one that will fit. Tom