Honda Hits Sales Slump - 3/30/05 Article

[Pairallel]

AUTO SALES: Game is changing as Honda hits slump

Even successful brands can become stale
March 30, 2005

BY SARAH A. WEBSTER
FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER

For decades, a conventional wisdom has loomed over the Motor City: The Japanese Big Three are taking over the United States auto market and Detroit's old Big Three are destined for oblivion.

But with Honda sales taking a surprising downturn this year and Chrysler sales on a steady upward trajectory, there's a new motto in town: There are no favorites in this dog-eat-dog auto market.

"There are pressures on Honda -- just like everybody else," said Michael Robinet, vice president of global vehicle forecasting at CSM Worldwide in Farmington Hills.

Honda's sales decline of 8.3 percent in the first two months of the year is practically in lockstep with that of General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. Their sales are off 9.9 percent and 7.4 percent, respectively.

In this brutal marketplace, it seems the right or wrong products can swiftly swing the fortunes of any automaker, no matter how strong or weak their foothold in the marketplace might seem. So if a stale Accord and Civic can shake the stalwart Honda brand, as is clearly the case, a few key products surely could rescue Detroit's ailing automakers.

The former Chrysler Corp., now a division of the German DaimlerChrysler AG, is proof of that. A few cool products, such as the Chrysler 300 and Dodge Magnum, have moved what is now the Chrysler Group from a string of financial, sales and market-share losses to an impressive list of gains these days.

Meanwhile, the blame for Honda Motor's performance this year largely falls on the flagship Honda brand, its resistance to offering big rebates, and the fast-declining popularity of its two best-selling vehicles -- the long-dependable Accord and Civic cars.

Sales of Honda's Acura luxury vehicles are up 5.4 percent for the first two months of the year, compared with last year. But Honda division sales are down a stark 10.6 percent during the same period.

Although the automaker is still profitable, the Honda brand seems to be losing some appeal with U.S. consumers. For the year through February, the Honda brand's share of the U.S. market fell to 6.5 percent from about 7 percent a year ago.

Dick Colliver, executive vice president of American Honda Motor Co. Inc., acknowledged the new competitive pressures.

"We've been fighting that battle to hold our sales up," Colliver said. "Are we concerned? Yeah, we're concerned. Are we going to panic? No."

Automakers report their monthly sales results on Friday, and Colliver predicts the company will report a sales gain in March, compared with the same month a year ago. Despite that, he said that Honda's sales and market share are still likely to be down for the 2005 first quarter.

Competition hurts car sales
Honda's trucks aren't the big problem. While the CR-V and Element SUVs are down for the year, the Pilot SUV and Odyssey minivan are more than offsetting those losses. Honda truck sales are up 4 percent for the first two months of the year.

Honda car sales, meanwhile, are in the tank -- down 20.7 percent.

"Passenger cars is where we're seeing the biggest competition," Colliver said, "and that's where we've started shifting a lot of our focus -- back to those two car lines."

The Accord was the fifth-best-selling vehicle in the United States last year, while the Civic ranked eighth. But sales of the Accord were down 15 percent for the first two months of the year, and sales of the Civic were off 26.9 percent. That dropped the Accord to the sixth-most-popular vehicle in the United States this year, with the Civic in 11th place.

Joe Phillippi, president of Auto Trends Consulting Inc., an automotive research firm in Short Hills, N.J., blamed Honda's troubles on bland styling with the Accord, which is now in the third year of its current body style, and the Civic, which is in its fifth and final year.

He also said a suspension change in the Civic, which affected its handling, also was rejected by young buyers who like to customize the vehicles.

Today's tough market, he said, demands a great and complete package: looks, brains, power and reliability -- all at the right price.

"There's a growing number of sexy-looking vehicles out there," Phillippi cautioned.

Dealerships also need to be able to close deals in this tough environment.

"Honda dealers aren't used to having to push a vehicle," said Alan Baum, director of forecasting at the Planning Edge in Birmingham. "They're used to a vehicle selling itself."

Colliver said Honda has plans to correct its troubles.

"We may have been a little conservative with the '01 Civic and the '03 Accord," he said. "We've started addressing that."

Indeed, a funky, more powerful Civic is on its way.

The automaker revealed a Civic Si concept at the Chicago Auto Show last month that is a thinly disguised version of the all-new 2006 Civic coupe that will be available in the fall, along with an all-new Civic sedan.

The Si concept is aggressively styled, with an extremely short hood, a dramatically sloped windshield and a sporty rear wing.

"It's a major change for us," Colliver said.

Phillippi said the Civic concept reveals that Honda has "gotten the message" the market has been sending by rejecting its cars.

A freshened-up version of the Accord also will be available by the end of the year, sooner than originally planned. Colliver also noted that Honda recently released two new Accord models -- a special edition coupe and value package sedan -- to give sales a lift.

"We know we've got to freshen the product up," Colliver said. "We need to do some things to get us a little more competitive in the marketplace."

Colliver said the company is still on target to sell 300,000 Civics and 400,000 Accords this year. And another boost may come from the new Honda Ridgeline pickup, with an inventive trunk in its bed, which just hit showrooms. The automaker expects to sell 50,000 over the next year.

But in the coming years, Honda may have to tweak its image, as well.

New marketing strategy
Robinet said the Honda name still has plenty of brand value in the market. But the name largely has been built on the company's reputation for dependable, reliable, high-quality vehicles.

As the quality of all vehicles sold in the United States starts to balance out, Honda will have to find another hook for reeling in customers.

The quality difference between all-new vehicles today is minimal -- so small that they are measured in fractions.

With these differences becoming progressively negligible, and customers slowly beginning to take notice, automakers who have long set themselves apart for their quality -- especially Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda -- must find new selling points, Phillippi said.

Typically when automakers don't have just the right mix of styling cues, power train, quality reputation or other features, they turn to discounts to lower the price and offset their shortcomings. Honda, however, largely has resisted offering cash-back rebates and other special incentives.

It's clear that Honda is thinking about them, though.

"We see some people walking from our dealerships because we don't offer incentives," Colliver conceded.

Of the nation's Big Six automakers, Honda offers the lowest incentives. Its rebates and other incentives averaged $781 for the first two months of the year, according to estimates by Autodata Corp. of Woodcliff Lake, N.J. Automakers do not publicly release how much they spend on incentives.

Even Toyota incentives are up 18.8 percent for the first two months of the year, to an average of $1,016 per vehicle.

So for consumers choosing between two quality leaders such as Toyota and Honda, a discount offered by Toyota may be a deal-breaker.

"If Honda was willing to play the incentive game, they could be doing far better than they currently are," said Joe Barker, manager of North American sales analysis for CSM Worldwide in Farmington Hills. "They're just not willing to play the incentives game."

Colliver said that Honda recently has ramped up behind-the-scene incentives to dealers to about $300 per vehicle on the Accord and Civic. But with the new Civic and freshened Accord not slated to hit showrooms until fall, the company may have a long, long summer selling season ahead.

Cars typically sell better in the summer months. But if Honda car sales don't pick up soon, bigger incentives could be in the offing.

Said Colliver: "Never say never."

Contact SARAH A. WEBSTER at 313-222-5394 or swebster@freepress.com.

[BenjiBoy650]

I am VERY surprised to hear that there is a freshened Accord coming this fall as a 2006 model. That model will likely stay around for 2 years, meaning that Honda has officially switched to a 5 year model cycle for their cars. Stunning, considering how poorly the Accord has done. I saw some sales stats a while back that indicated the Accord was only going to sell something like 240K units in 2004. That's a significant drop from the 410K or so that it was pushing out in 2000/2001/2002.

As for the Civic, I think Honda really shot itself in the foot with that one. Around these parts, you rarely see a modified '01+ Civic. It really lost whatever it was that the old Civics had.

[Pairallel]

Isn't it fair to say that the 6th gen Accords had a "freshening" for 2001 and 2002? Even though they were 90% the same, I believe they did streamline the fascia and change the look a little.

Here's a question: Who is winning the sales that Honda is losing? Can't be Toyota with the stodgy Camry and Corolla. Can't be Mazda with their huge unsold inventories. Nissan?

Some of the Accord buyers have switched to Acuras, accounting for the sales increase there.

Maybe it's time to admit that the transmission troubles of the last 7 years have finally started to have an effect....?

[OwAce]

Here's a question: Who is winning the sales that Honda is losing? Can't be Toyota with the stodgy Camry and Corolla. Can't be Mazda with their huge unsold inventories. Nissan?




Hyundai :nuts:

ok more seriously
here we go, sales are for the 1st 2 months of 05 only

Ford 10.9% up from 9.7%
Chevrolet 10.5% down from 12.6%
Toyota 12% up from 10.4%
Dodge 4.4% up from 3.7%
Honda 7.3% down from 9.2%
Nissan 6.1% flat
Chrysler Division 5.2% up from 3.6%
Hyundai 4.2% up from 3.5%
Pontiac 5.1% down from 5.8%

enh the list after this is too long and difference are less than .4%

[BenjiBoy650]

Isn't it fair to say that the 6th gen Accords had a "freshening" for 2001 and 2002? Even though they were 90% the same, I believe they did stremline the fascia and change the look a little.

Here's a question: Who is winning the sales that Honda is losing? Can't be Toyota with the stodgy Camry and Corolla. Can't be Mazda with their huge unsold inventories. Nissan?

Some of the Accord buyers have switched to Acuras, accounting for the sales increase there.

Maybe it's time to admit that the transmission troubles of the last 7 years have finally started to have an effect....?

Yes the 01/02 models did get refreshed. I thought that it was going to be an exception, since Honda has always been known to use the 4 year cycles in the past.

I'm going to say that Toyota, Hyundai and Ford are winning the sales. Honestly, mostly Ford and Toyota. You can call the Camry and Corolla whatever you want, but around here they are selling much much better (at least from what I see on the streets) than the new Accords and Civics. The Civic is a touch more expensive than the Corolla and has less choices/options/trim levels/etc.

[according2me]

Maybe it's time to admit that the transmission troubles of the last 7 years have finally started to have an effect....?


My thoughts also. Quality and reliability are what attracted me to Honda years ago. I feel they are no longer leading the pack in this area. It seems '89- to '93 was their high point.

I also don't care for the recent styling on the Honda side of the house.

[bcclements]

I think my 04 Accord V6 and 03 Pilot EX are great vehicles. What bothered me with the purchase was the cost of the installed accessories.

Paying a lot extra for foglights, auto-dimming mirror, mudflaps, crossbars, etc. are a turnoff. These items should be included in the top-of-the-line model. In addition, there should be an option for a premium stereo like most other brands.

Someone previously joked about Hyundai, but with proven reliability and a 10-warranty, they can't be laughed at any more. Reliable and inexpensive cars is how Honda and Toyota got their foot in the door over the Big 3.

Perhaps the biggest area Honda could improve it offering a longer warranty that is more in line with their reliability claim.

[anysia]

i dont' think all of those features should be included. i don't want foglights or mudflaps as standard equipment. it would actually stop me from buying the top model. i haven't experience with an autodimming mirror but i'm not so sure i'd be happy with that too. just me though. :dunno:

i like being able to pick and choose what i want and not being stuck with things and i think there is a nice spread between models and what each level gains over the last.

judging from people ive talked to, the big points on the accord not selling are the styling of the sedan and the blind spots in the coupe. for the civic it's the lack of power showing in the numbers-but for god's sake people go DRIVE the car before making any judgement based on just the numbers! having owned 2 of them and having compared it to setnra's, corrolla's, and now even a protege, i can honestly say someone is lying about power. i don't know if everyone else is overshooting their numbers or if honda is underestimating theirs (likely the latter), but something doesn't add up. :dunno: :screwy:

as for hyundai's reliability, prove it in 10 years. let me know how many times that waranty has had to have been used for major issues. :withstupi 3 people i know are entirely dissatisfied with their new hyundai's lack of reliability in the first 1 or 2 years of ownership. but they have a warranty to cover their butts. so as long as they don't mind making the constant trips to the dealership, who cares? :rolleyes: but to me, that's a royal pain in the butt. i've had to do that with my bodyshop repairs for my accord after my accident, and even though i haven;t had to fork over additional money, it still annoys the crap out of me to have to continually go back and get another thing fixed. :furious:

[anysia]

as for where the sales are going... not sure....

i think nissan is pulling more away from the domestics. nicer cars in general. but i don't think honda and toyota are losing customers to nissan. the nissan's aren't impressive enough to pull people from toyota and honda. atleast not in my opinion and not in other western pennsylvanian's opinons! ;) however, i think honda and toyota could be loosing potential NEW customers to nissan because of price and overall impression styling wise-exterior of the cars (the interior of nissan needs help!!). but they are not loosing the ones who currently or have previosuly owned a honda or toyota.... :)

[BenjiBoy650]

i think nissan is pulling more away from the domestics. nicer cars in general. but i don't think honda and toyota are losing customers to nissan. the nissan's aren't impressive enough to pull people from toyota and honda.

Nissan almost got me! Until I found out ABS and side airbag is not available with a V6/5-speed, only V6/auto. Turned me off immediately.

[BenjiBoy650]

Wanna see who really stole the sales? Toyota. Read. They're doing AWESOME.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20050401a

[according2me]

Doesn't surprise me. They have a lot of interesting vehicles and also a rep as good as Honda, if not better, over the long haul.

Again as gas prices soar, just as in the late 70's, both Honda and Toyota have a very good lineup of fuel efficient vehicles. They both should be well positioned as our fuel costs keep rising. Deja vu.

[04EXNavi]

The Civic and Accord need to be freshened to boost sales, and it sounds like theyr'e doing that. I don't know how much they can change the current Accord though to make a difference.

And when was the last time you say a decent tv spot for the Accord, except the hybrid commercial? The only decent one I remember was the 'lead foot' driver for the 6-spd Accord. I think Honda needs to freshen the car's image, at least in the eyes of the general public. Talk about the safety, the features, the performance, the efficency. Anything but that stupid voice just talking about how it's always been a nice car.

[BenjiBoy650]

http://hondanews.com/CatID2000?mid=2005040151858&mime=asc

Look at the Accord, TL, RSX and Civic sales. They're all pathetic. The RSX got a hotter engine and a face lift and the sales declined. The Accord is being outsold by the Camry by a lot. If the pace continues, it is probably going to be by 100K units this year. Sad, considering at the turn of the millenium, the Accord outsold the Camry. True, the Accord sales are actually up for Month-to-Date for March compared to last year. But look carefully...it's attributed almost wholly to the Accord Hybrid. I'm sure if Toyota intro'ed a hybrid Camry, they'd sell a lot more cars too.

[04blkpearlcoupe]

i think honda needs to retire the accord and civic names and come up with some "sexier" replacements. that is what mazda did with the protege (now replaced by the mazda3) and they sold like crazy. toyota didnt just make the corolla look sexier, they also came out with a whole new model to target the civic market - the scion TC.

as for hybrids, i heard that only 20,000 hybrids were sold last year inthe US. that is merely a drop in the bucket in terms of car sales. the real competition is in who has the more stylish and affordable passenger cars. the reliability factor is not as important as it was before. now its all about styling and incentives.

[greggdogg]

i think honda needs to retire the accord and civic names and come up with some "sexier" replacements. that is what mazda did with the protege (now replaced by the mazda3) and they sold like crazy. toyota didnt just make the corolla look sexier, they also came out with a whole new model to target the civic market - the scion TC.

Accord and Civic are probably two of the most easily recognizable brands in the industry. The Accord has a problem, '06 should have a styling fix. The Civic's sales are off because it's the last year before a FMC. If there's anything Honda might consider, it's changing the Civic back to a 4-year model cycle.

OH YEAH AND TURBOZ!@#)*$##$++++TEHY NEED 2 MAEK TEHM MOAR MODABLE!!!1

[anysia]

i wouldn't want them to retire the names... that has always bugged me with domestic cars. have issues, rename the car, make people think it's new. you loose recognition that way, and in my mind, it's a way for people to poke fun at you! while i can easily think accord/civic, when it comes to acura's i start to loose my footing because of the name changes.....

as far as toyota, they're doing fleet sales and more and more to boost the overall numbers... does the camry really look any better or worse than the accord sedan? does the corolla realy look any better/worse/sportier than the civic? while the scion tc impressed me in pics, it has not impressed me in person. it tends to look somewhat cheap from the backside.... i have mistaken it for the likes of hyundai at times...

turbo-schmurbo, but that argument has been had before too.

why can't we all just be responsible???

power hungry society........ :rolleyes:

[greggdogg]

turbo-schmurbo, but that argument has been had before too.

why can't we all just be responsible???

power hungry society........ :rolleyes:

Hence the sarcasm.... :D

As with Chevy, retiring the "Cavalier" name was the best thing they could have done. I guess it varies from situation to situation.

[04blkpearlcoupe]

going turbo is defintely not the answer. look at the pt cruiser, the srt-4, the mazdaspeed protege...all flopped in sales. the only turbo that made a significant profit in today's market was the RX-8, and maybe the wrx sti although both were outsold by the 350z. people don't want turbos, they want fresh styling and big price incentives, both of which honda is lacking.

[OwAce]

going turbo is defintely not the answer. look at the pt cruiser, the srt-4, the mazdaspeed protege...all flopped in sales. the only turbo that made a significant profit in today's market was the RX-8, and maybe the wrx sti although both were outsold by the 350z. people don't want turbos, they want fresh styling and big price incentives, both of which honda is lacking.


rx 8 has turbo? :paranoid:

[EXLNavi]

Why is Chrysler gaining popularity?

People are buying bigger cars with bigger engines. Honda's truck sales are gaining because they are bigger than Honda's cars. However, Honda's cars are still small compared to much of the competition.

The Chrysler 300 is fugly, but it's big, and the American consumer wants big cars. That's why SUV's and trucks are so popular.

[04blkpearlcoupe]

turbo / rotary they all go round like a wheel to make power :D ok yea the rx-8 is not turbo. my bad.

[OwAce]

turbo / rotary they all go round like a wheel to make power :D ok yea the rx-8 is not turbo. my bad.


tsk tsk..however the rx-8 is easily one of the funnest cars to drive, the car seems to rev forever before you have to shift, i think you can do the 0-60 in 2nd gear...

[Ralph]

I really think my 02 Accord is built much more cheaply than our old 88 LXi. The metal is paper thin, and so is the paint. The manual windows don't stay up, and the doors don't seem to fit right, causing scratches on the inside. You see Hondas all the time with big scratches in the bumper that let that black show through, and it just says cheap. So I'm not that surprised that Toyota seems to be taking their sales.

[Inspector1]

I really think my 02 Accord is built much more cheaply than our old 88 LXi. The metal is paper thin, and so is the paint. The manual windows don't stay up, and the doors don't seem to fit right, causing scratches on the inside. You see Hondas all the time with big scratches in the bumper that let that black show through, and it just says cheap. So I'm not that surprised that Toyota seems to be taking their sales.

Scratches on the inside??? you mean like the picture on second page of this thread (http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=990&highlight=seat+belt)
Scratches on the bumpers?? If you hit something in any painted bumper vehicle it will scratch...driver abuse!!
I am also going to ? with the other issues if the car was wrecked by previous owner????
You want to talk about thin metal buy a Subaru.. theirs is slightly thicker than tin foil.. then check out a Volvo.. those 2 vehicles ding worse than any other cars in the American market!!
Oh and Honda paint is roughly 6mil just like every other car out there unless you want to spend over 100k!

I1 :)

[BenjiBoy650]

I don't think it's so much that the metal is paper thin that's causing the dents. Ya know what it is? Those friggin dumb soccer moms driving alone in a Suburban 8.1L lifted on 35" tires that have to CLIMB into the car to get a jacket and shove their back end into the door which will dent the car next to it...yours. :censored: :censored: :censored: *Sigh* yes from experience...

[thoots]

Let's start with this:

Is the Corolla better-looking than the Civic?

Holy crimony -- IN SPADES!!

When I see a Civic sedan, I just shake my head and wonder, "What were they THINKING?!?" Ugly and ill-proportioned from every angle. Meanwhile, the new-generation Corolla has been wildly successful with its new styling.

Even the Civic coupe is oddly-proportioned, like the back deck is too long or something.

Then, Honda took away the wishbone suspension: Wonderful, now we don't have the looks the kids want, now we don't have the handling the kids want -- and I think the Corolla even has a bit more "intelligent" variable valve timing engine. And, Scion is absolutely eating the lunch Honda used to enjoy with the young folks.

On the Accord side of things, the sedan is just totally odd-looking to the American public -- whereas Camry's looks are right on-target. I think the coupe situation is the other way around -- the Accord hits the target very well, whereas the Camry Solara looks very gimmicky. In the end, I think you have to look into an Accord to get a step up in interior comfort -- the Camry seats are nothing to write home about. Otherwise, I think Toyota is beating the veritable crap out of Honda in terms of "quality" -- I've seen quite a bit of poor panel fit on Hondas, and the gap sizes are MUCH better controlled in any Toyota you might run across. And, I'll bet that you don't find the rattle-fest we Accord owners bought into with a Camry.

I shopped Toyota very seriously before going with the Accord coupe, and though I'm happy with my Accord so far, I am HUGELY dissapointed with all of the interior buzzing around I've had to put up with. Again, Honda really needs to go back to the woodshed, or they'll just continue to slide downhill compared to Toyota. They REALLY need to throw away everything they did with the current-generation Civic, and start all over again. I think the Accord just needs a decent front end and a decent back end -- just look at what they do with Acura models -- and they need to raise their assembly quality by a huge margin.

[BenjiBoy650]

If ya ask me, the Camry looks EXACTLY like a 4 door Civic Coupe. Not to say that it looks bad - I think the Civic Coupe looks very good and so does the Camry. I agree the build quality is much better at Toyota. The '97 Camry is 2 years and 40K older (165K) than my Accord and the interior is asbolutely tight. There is not a single rattle, squeak or loose trim piece to be seen anywhere. The plastics are high quality, matte finish soft touch (vs. my Accord hard glossy), and they are holding up very well. The panel gaps are literally NIL yet there is no squeaking. However when I looked at the new Camry I'm not so sure that it will hold up quite so well. The new interior looks cheaper than the old one.

[anysia]

Let's start with this:

Is the Corolla better-looking than the Civic?

Holy crimony -- IN SPADES!!

When I see a Civic sedan, I just shake my head and wonder, "What were they THINKING?!?" Ugly and ill-proportioned from every angle. Meanwhile, the new-generation Corolla has been wildly successful with its new styling.

Even the Civic coupe is oddly-proportioned, like the back deck is too long or something.

Then, Honda took away the wishbone suspension: Wonderful, now we don't have the looks the kids want, now we don't have the handling the kids want -- and I think the Corolla even has a bit more "intelligent" variable valve timing engine. And, Scion is absolutely eating the lunch Honda used to enjoy with the young folks.

On the Accord side of things, the sedan is just totally odd-looking to the American public -- whereas Camry's looks are right on-target. I think the coupe situation is the other way around -- the Accord hits the target very well, whereas the Camry Solara looks very gimmicky. In the end, I think you have to look into an Accord to get a step up in interior comfort -- the Camry seats are nothing to write home about. Otherwise, I think Toyota is beating the veritable crap out of Honda in terms of "quality" -- I've seen quite a bit of poor panel fit on Hondas, and the gap sizes are MUCH better controlled in any Toyota you might run across. And, I'll bet that you don't find the rattle-fest we Accord owners bought into with a Camry.

I shopped Toyota very seriously before going with the Accord coupe, and though I'm happy with my Accord so far, I am HUGELY dissapointed with all of the interior buzzing around I've had to put up with. Again, Honda really needs to go back to the woodshed, or they'll just continue to slide downhill compared to Toyota. They REALLY need to throw away everything they did with the current-generation Civic, and start all over again. I think the Accord just needs a decent front end and a decent back end -- just look at what they do with Acura models -- and they need to raise their assembly quality by a huge margin.

HA! i had to live with a camry for 5.5 weeks while my accord was being repaired after being slammed into on the highway. i wouldn't say the camry has any less rattles...... :scratch: worse yet, when i turned the stereo up, in addition to the same problem of incurring more random rattles, the speakers couldn't take the abuse. had to turn the bass way down if i wanted much volume..... :screwy: now after that experience, i'd still choose my accord hands down. but that's my opinon. styling, power, general feel of the car, etc are why i like the accord. the camry is geared towards a more mundane driver who wants to blend in in all ways. (toyota defiitely looses alot of ground on interior set up and styling.... it could be done so much nicer. the materials are fine, but the use is not great. accord gets that category hands down! :) )

also having owned a civic sedan (2003), i prefer the styling of it to the corolla by far. to each their own though! :yes: no car is ever going to please everyone every way! that's the reason there are multiple car co's out there and we have the ability to make the decision of what we want/don't want for ourselves! ;)

i dont think the accord is loosing sales to the camry at all.... :dunno: two different types of car buyers if you can believe that. odds are if you love the camry, you'll be so-so on the accord. or if you love the accord, you''ll be so-so on the camry.

ps-as far as scion is concerned... not for me and so far, doesnt appear to be for many in western pa.... don't see many on the road at all! :lmao: from pics i originally thought the tC looked intriguing, but once i saw it in person, i thought it looked rather cheap. :rant: the corolla looks much better-aka-higher quality. which yes, is a goal. ;) the scion is targeted to an audience who wants power and stand out of the crowd looks, whether the looks are cheap or not doesn't matter, they just want to be noticed. the corolla doesn't want to be noticed. neither does the civic.

:blah: just my opinion though! :)

[edwilson13185]

I also kind of agree with the two different types of buyers when it comes to the Accord and Camry. I test drove both, and went with the Honda. The Honda handled better and felt more sporty all the way around. The Honda's transmission almost seemed to anticipate my every move. The Toyota tended to feel floaty and "wallow" over bumps, and the Toyota's transmission always felt like it was in the wrong gear. When it finally did pick the right gear, it did so with a jerk. The Honda always felt composed under "sporty" driving. Thus, I think the Honda probably tends to attract the crowd who enjoys a more connected driving experience, while the Toyota probably attracts the people who prefer a smooth, quiet ride above all else.

[psyshack]

American drivers over all leave little to desire. There turning away from the big three cause we cant build anything anymore that will stay togather for any lenght of time. So Camry is picking up the Tarus, Impala, Malibue drivers in droves. And then they have Avalon and Honda has nothing to answer with there except a way over priced Acura RL. Also hondas have always been firm riding, firm seated. As folks grow older they move from the Accord they loved so much for a more Buick type ride and Toyota is there to pick them up.

As for build quality the paint really sucks on the wifes sedan. It will get a better paint job when she wrecks it. The inside is flawless and I hope it dosent start rattleing and such. The controls are wonderful. Camrys controls felt awful and the inside over all was horid.

I dont think Honda has really done anything wrong. Peeps over all just want a smoother riding, bigger car. Or bigger feeling car.

As far as styling Accord and Camry look alot a like. And the solairs is sooo girly looking. I see a guy driving one and wonder if hes really all there. Hondas coupe ( I will be buying one ) has a great nose and side. but honda just cant seem to get the rear right. And havent since prelude.

As for Civic and Corolla. I dont see what the fuss is with Civic. The 3 door SI has been a flop IMO. But sedan and coupe look great IMO. I really like the coupe! Wish the Accord coupe looked like it. The Corolla is as boring as chicken broth.

Around here you see alot of the entrance level Camrys. They cost sooo much more than Accord here its not funny. And you see alot of EX Accords. Also you see alot of 60+ year olds buying Camry. There a real blue hair ride here.

I for one really hope Honda dosent go and chase down Toyota. If I wanted a Toyota I would have bought one.

I do fear Honda build quality will go down with Accord being assmbled here. I have little to no faith in the american work force anymore. I was real glad to see the tranny in the wifes ride was built in Japan.

[CA05LXDriver]

Well, the original article at the beginning of this thread is ancient history, and was non-news to begin with.

Last year was a record-breaker for Honda sales, so comparing the first few months of a subsequent year is a bit misleading to say the least.

Sales in May have gone up, with the Accord in the #1 sales position. Honda is not having any sales issues, unless they have the insane notion that year over year sales growth in the auto market is sustainable forever.

Just look at the deep discounts going on accross the board in the auto market. You can get a camry on ad in the SF chronicle for 16 grand, employee discounts on GM product, and I rarely see Honda doing desparate things like that.

[BenjiBoy650]

Well June sales are out.

http://hondanews.com/CatID2000?mid=2005070148995&mime=asc

What surprised me most? TSX/CR-V/Pilot sales are up...especially the Pilot! Wow guess you can teach an old dog new tricks, not bad considering how old it is. :) On the flip side, I guess nothing's come out to really challenge it? heh

[edwilson13185]

I do fear Honda build quality will go down with Accord being assmbled here. I have little to no faith in the american work force anymore. I was real glad to see the tranny in the wifes ride was built in Japan.

IIRC, Honda has built a few models here since 1982. If there are indeed quality problems, I would venture to guess that they're coming from the corporate level, not the assembly line. Perhaps some of the misc. rattles and squeaks are assembly-related (the body clip not being fully engaged causing an A-pillar squeak, for example), but the transmission problems are nothing other than engineering flaws. Toyotas are built here, as well, and the problems they've had with engine sludge have to do with oil quality and faulty design of the engine.

The UAW has given the American auto worker a bad name. The contracts the UAW negotiates sets up conditions for lazy workers who produce products of questionable quality. Honda, Nissan, and Toyota have a different philosophy when it comes to labor.

[Bodega]

July 1 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp., the world's biggest automaker, said extending employee discounts to all buyers in June increased U.S. sales by 47 percent, boosting GM's market share more than 7 points above its level for the year.
GM sales rose to 558,092 vehicles from 380,267 for the same month a year ago as light trucks gained 76 percent and market share climbed to 33 percent. The sales total was GM's largest for any month since September 1986. Asian rivals Toyota Motor Corp. and Nissan Motor Co. also gained sales in June, leading to a 16 percent overall increase for the U.S. industry and reversing a 1 percent slide through May.

Dot dot dot

Sales at Ford, the No. 2 U.S. automaker behind GM, increased 0.7 percent from June 2004. DaimlerChrysler climbed 5.1 percent. Among the biggest Japanese makers, Toyota was up 14 percent, Nissan gained 19 percent and Honda Motor Co. rose 8.9 percent. South Korea's Hyundai Motor rose 4.1 percent.

End of item

What’s GM’s strategy, if any? Hoping that more cars on the road will have a ripple effect on sales? Just clearing the decks for the new sales year? Scrambling around and hoping for the best (gets my vote)?

And, as one analyst said, what happens when the discounts end?

Bloomberg, incidentally, has the best monthly auto sales roundup I’ve come across. Try Googling on “bloomberg u.s. auto sales,” and you’ll find a fairly lengthy story. AP and other services are usually rather sketchy.

[psyshack]

Great,,, More GM junk on the roads. A testement to how stupid US drivers really are.