The saga so far:
93 LX was having some rough idle/no acceleration problems, so I replaced:
dist. rotor
dist. cap
all 5 plug wires (external coil)
spark plugs

All of those parts were honda OEM (plugs are NGKs)

Ok, after all of that, no love, so we took it to the local dealer:

Honda Trip 1)
Diagnosis: EGR Ports Clogged, Unspecified IAC problem
Fix: EGR Ports Cleaned, IAC (cleaned? replaced? they didn't say)

was ok afterwards, but quickly redeveloped the problem, took it back to honda.

Honda Trip 2)
Diagnosis: Need new engine, low compression on 1/2 cylinders.
1: 130psi
2: 120psi
3: 175psi
4: 175psi

Fix: None

Not the answer I was looking for, took it to an independent for a 2nd opinion.

Independent Trip)
Diagnosis: Fuel starvation (fuel filter is 140kmi old, I know, I know...) compression ok: all cylinders at 175psi +/- 3psi
Fix: None (waiting to get filter, was going to do it myself)

The next day, the dealer calls me, says they reviewed the documentation (after I gave them a bad review on their post-service survey) and that they want another crack at it (and that they would refund my spent money if I did in fact need a new engine)

Honda Trip 3)
Diagnosis: Inconclusive, tech heard vacuum leak checked all vacuum lines, ok, wants to replace intake manifold gasket.
Fix: Waiting on gaskets...

sigh... any insights? Comments?

All this for rough idle? The car still runs fine, doesn't it?

Not just a rough idle, (which is _very_ rough) It also has the bad habit of losing power on the highway. It once was unable to keep up 40mph due to power loss. Additionally, it is drinking gas now... (24mpg vs. 30mpg before)

Are there any other symptoms? Sticking throttle? Only happens when cold or warm? Power loss only on freeway or in city as well? Has the car recently been in for any other work? Only happens at certain times of day? Is the maintenance up to date?

I don't think it is a vacuum leak. You can check vacuum with a gauge, if it's leaking you'll know it and it'd be a quick diagnosis. Be wary of that dealer...especially after those conflicting compression tests. I know of a Prelude H22A with 90PSI in cylinder 1 that still runs fine, but I don't know having two cylinders down makes a big difference. Was the EGR ever replaced?

I don't think it's a vacuum leak either, and I can't see it being a leak in the intake gasket either... I'm no mech. engineer but wouldn't that make the engine want to surge rather than act like it's being starved for fuel/compression/spark?

Tomorrow morning I'm replacing the fuel filter, it needs to be done either way. If it fixes the problem, I'm going to be livid that in 3 tries honda got it wrong wrong wrong. If it doesn't, well then I have the new fuel filter I needed.

how about fuel pump???? not really sure what else it could be... :dunno:

want my car???? my runs very well for its age, but it does need a teeny bit of work (see sig)... :lmao:

I'm not mech engineer either but when I think it through logically, to the best of my knowledge a vacuum leak at the intake manifold gasket should make for the symptoms you describe, but would also be easily detected. The reasoning for me is that if extra air is getting in where you don't want it, it leans out the fuel mixture, which is effectively fuel starvation. But I'm still going to say that most likely going to be easily detectable. Even if you hooked up a vacuum gauge and the leak was downstream of the gauge, the pressure would still read low upstream.

Replaced the fuel filter today, no improvement in condition. Oh well, c'est la vie.

here's what you ask me for....

Thanks princess, good to see that I didn't forget any washers (fears gasoline gushing out onto a hot engine...)

fuel pressure????

here's some instructions for checking....

give me a list of WHEN this happens.... hot? cold? anything you can think of.... I've already consulted with my prince & so far the stuff described isn't telling him where to point you. He doesn't believe it's the ENGINE itself! Being intermitten says it's not. Could be fule related. Anyway, I can give you most anything you need for HOW to check stuff out. I'll do my best to help you if you can pass on any other info you gather.... :dunno:

opps....forgot the attachment....

Still no clue here, I question whether it's the pressure regulator or not (I'd check it but I don't have the gauge to hook up to the service port) Would over-pressure cause the problem? (over-pressure would conceivably lead to it running rich, correct?)

Basically the symptoms are as follows:
The car either:

1) Works perfectly.

2) Stumbles a little: basically it idles rough (although the tach indicates that it's idling normally, 800-850rpm) the car has excess vibration in the 1-2k rpm range on acceleration and only seems 'normal' once velocity is up to ~70mph and engine speed is up ~3.5k.

3) Stumbles a lot: idles very rough, tach can dip below normal idle, acceleration is heavily labored. Top speed is limited to ~40mph.

This all happens when the engine is both warm or cold. It it slightly less noticeable when cold, but I would surmise that is due to engine speed being limited to 1500k and above. The three 'modes' above seem to fade in and out without pattern.

Examples: one night we left Atlanta with the engine warm, full tank of gas, there was a noticeable transition between mode 1 and mode 2 along the way, the car remained in mode 2 for the remainder of the trip. (about half the trip was spent in each mode)

ex: when this problem was newer, I was noticing mode 3 with a low tank of gas (near E), thinking 'hey maybe the fuel pump is going, a full tank of gas might help it along", I filled up, but the car remained in mode 3.

Transitions seem random and without warning.

Local Honda techs claim to have heard air leaking in the intake area, and have ordered the gasket (#14 in the appropriate diag) that goes between the chamber after the throttle body (is that the plenum? its the area that says PGM-FI) and the intake runners.) Additionally they have ordered new gaskets for around the injectors (#4 on the same diag)

That's all I can think of, I'll keep you all apprised of the situation.

Did it act up for the tech?

When reading all this off to my prince he was wondering about an injector.... when my '86 had a bad one it was replaced right away, but I had one day of stuff like you're describing. We replaced them all.

It has been in mode 2 or 3 each time a tech has seen it. Mode 3 the first time honda saw it I believe, mode 2 for all other visits. (It's only been in mode 1 on occasion, and then, only briefly)

My fear is that the honda-techs are only going on intuition and are missing the obvious since we're so far down the troubleshooting path. Maybe (only maybe) if they started from square one using the service manual they'd find it. (I'm hoping it's something really strange and not something that we'll all slap our foreheads and say "D'oh" for when it's fixed)

Maybe when they have the injectors out to replace those gaskets/grommets, they'll see if any of the injectors are noticeably 'bad'.

Which leads to another possible diagnosis that the independent tech noted:

"Maybe it's a fuel injector failed in the 'open' state" this could allow for a flooded cylinder (no power production) and increased fuel consumption (I noted before that mileage has dropped over 20% since this problem showed up. We're currently getting between 230 and 300 per fillup whereas before we would get a consistent 400 mi on a tank.

I appreciate all the help so far everyone.

Even an injector stuck closed can do it....it would pull air, which would fool the OX sensor into over fueling the other injectors.....

But the fuel in general sound like they're the "path".... maybe you can ask them to check those injectors specifically.
:dunno:

So, today's task is to check the fuel injectors themselves. My proposed procedure is to simply use a screwdriver to listen to injectors. (I've read about this, but never done it)

I'm supposing I should hear the same repetitive clicking from each injector, if any injector is stuck open/closed no sound should be heard. If any injector is intermittently opening/closing the sound should be remarkably different from the other 3. (consider this my pass/fail criteria)

Is this a good methodology? Where on the injectors themselves should I place my screwdriver for best 'reception?'

Thanks again

Sounds like a great plan!

2 notes for today's update:

1) All injectors seem to be okay, at least at idle. Each had a steady 'click' to it. The car didn't seem to be exhibiting especially bad behavior. The idle was relatively smooth, but if I would 'gun it' up to 3k rpm, it would sputter or burble up to 3k instead of the smooth revving which is normal.

2) I checked the oil today when filling up, and noticed that I was 1q low after 4k mi. [This isn't terrible in my book, nor is it new behavior. I have 1 significant oil leak at my dist. along with two very minor oil leaks around some oil seals.] What was interesting though was the presence of a small number of bubbles in the oil. My immediate thought was 'oh great, kiss one head gasket good-bye.' However, positive compression tests, the clean green color of my coolant and the lack of a 'chocolate milk' consistency in the oil has tempered that thought process.

Could low oil levels (even 1 quart) lead the oil pump to have introduced air into the system? Wouldn't this have signaled the low-oil indicator?

Ah... the mystery deepens...

What if the bubbles were actually caused by fuel getting past bad rings? Could explain the gas mileage and the one bad compression test. Also that leak in your dist might be causing all this too. It would prevent electricity from getting across the rotor to the contacts so cylinders wouldn't fire and cause a loss of power. Just some guesses, I'm no good at this stuff to begin with anyways. Also, is there a way to test your injectors at 3K? Like, take one out and start the car (it'll run on three cyls) and let it fire into a cup? I'm not sure if the computer would act weird or something but you might see one thats not firing right if the computer doesn't do anything to compensate for it.

BTW is your air filter clean?

I don't think the dist. oil leak is responsible since oil is only leaking down between the dist. and head. oil has not penetrated into the electronics of the dist, and the coil is external on the 93 Accord (it was internal to the distributor on the 90-91 accords)

As for fuel getting into the oil, it's certainly possible, maybe if I had an oil analysis done they could tell me just how much fuel is in there. However, I doubt this would cause bubbles in the oil. Now when it comes to relating this to the compression test, I've read online that the fuel pump needs to be disabled while doing the test to prevent the raw fuel being dumped into a non- running engine and washing the cylinder walls clean of oil. Could it be that honda didn't do this for their original dry test (which is why two cylinders were ok, but the other two (perhaps the last two) had been washed clean of oil by then?)

As for checking at 3k, I was doing the test alone, so I couldn't rev the engine from inside the car (where the tach is) and I was hesitant to manipulate the throttle manually since I already had my face pressed against the valve cover to listen to the injectors.

Lastly, my filter is clean, or at least was cleaned (K&N) about 4kmi ago. I don't think it is the problem since I've run the filter for longer than that in the past without adverse reaction.

I did my dry compression test with an analog gauge just by unplugging the distributor. Had all the plugs out too. I'm actually surprised your mechanic didn't do a leakdown test instead? Woulda helped a lot more. Anyways, I'm clean outta ideas :dunno:

Benji is right, the leak down tests are better than the "compresion" ones... but I'm more interested in this bubbles in the oil thing.... is foamy? Is it just at the dipstick? Did you take the filler cap off & see bubbles in there?

Hondas don't always do the milky thing in the oil/coolant....

A low tech way that sometimes can help figuring out if a head gasket is gone is to watch for bubbles in the coolant overflow jug as you're starting it. You can have a bead gasket without bubbles, but if there are then it's a definate from what we've seen....

Did the coolant level go up?

You never said whether or not your "check engine" light came on....but here's a guide for that.....

I wish I could have gotten a leak-down test, but we seem to be heading away from the internal engine problems, I'll mention the bubbles in the oil to the dealer and see what they think.

As for some of the other questions:

No CEL at any point.

No Bubbles at the oil fill point. I added the missing quart back and will re-check for bubbles on the dipstick tomorrow.

I haven't noticed any 'extra' coolant, nor have i seen bubbles in the radiator or overflow bottle. (I haven't been looking for them though) About a month ago, when I checked the coolant to see if it was contaminated by oil, it appeared clean and green at the top of the radiator. I'm hoping this bubble in the oil thing is nothing... but it probably isn't...

Iam just going to thow this out there....Did anybody do a spark plug reading (pull each plug out and look at them) see if your running rich,lean or burning oil?

Another "off the wall" suggestion.....

Several years back one model of Civic had the misfire symptoms you've described.....it was the ground cable where it goes into the harness.... it was sending the wrong signals to the computer.....maybe you can check the whole ground cable out....

:dunno:

Being intermitten says it COULD be a bad connection to something.....

Checked the oil again: no bubbles 1st time (been sitting for 3 hours) bubbles on the 2nd time. Overflow bottle was clean and green, if the bubbles are supposed to be persistent at the top of the bottle (like soap suds are) then there were none.

Princess: are you suggesting the ground at the ECU might be bad? or a ground elsewhere?

Where the ground comes for the battery to the next part on your car.... follow the cable to the loom & look for signs of ANY corrosion. Follow the ground wires as far as you can. On the Civics it was where the main ground went into the wire loom as I understand it.

Sure wish my prince could get his hands & test stuff on it! You've really got his curiosity peaked! He loves the detective work! 'Specially the odd stuff....just can't do too much via a computer..... he'd be hooking up stuff & checking out the results all over the place! :)

Ok, no change with the car, no new testing done (my fiance has it in atlanta tonight) but a new thought.

We were thinking about how an air leak in the intake manifold could be leaning out the mixture, or fooling the O2 sensor into dumping extra fuel into the system.

If I were to disable the O2 sensor by unplugging its harness, it would put the ECU into 'open loop' mode, is that correct? In this mode it would not be relying on O2 readings to gauge fuel levels, but would be aiming blind. Do you think that this would be a good test? or do you think that it could lead to running excessively lean (assuming an air leak) which could damage the engine?

Open loop mode ruining the engine? Naw no way. But I'm not sure if it's a good test. An air leak wouldn't necessarily affect the O2 readings too much would it? I mean even if it did dump extra fuel in, by the time the O2 sensor got around to reading it, it should have been burned already and if it's seeing a lot of air then adding more fuel would appropriately richen the mixture...you get what I'm trying to say? Once again, I'm no mechanical engineer :)

As for fuel getting into the oil, it's certainly possible, maybe if I had an oil analysis done they could tell me just how much fuel is in there. However, I doubt this would cause bubbles in the oil.

An oil analysis is $20 by Blackstone. www.blackstone-labs.com If you have a local Caterpillar dealer near you, they would probably do one for you as well. Wouldn't be a bad idea to get one done every so often anyway IMHO.

Open loop mode ruining the engine? Naw no way. But I'm not sure if it's a good test. An air leak wouldn't necessarily affect the O2 readings too much would it? I mean even if it did dump extra fuel in, by the time the O2 sensor got around to reading it, it should have been burned already and if it's seeing a lot of air then adding more fuel would appropriately richen the mixture...you get what I'm trying to say? Once again, I'm no mechanical engineer :)

Yeah, I suppose it's a flawed logic. For some reason I was mixing my brain up thinking that somehow the leak was only affecting 1 cylinder. In my head, this made for 1 cylinder that was extra lean, however, the O2 would compensate by dumping extra fuel into all 4, resulting in 1 good cylinder and 3 rich ones.

Can the PGM-FI in a 93 Accord independently vary injector duty cycles on a per-cylinder basis?

I'll also look into that oil analysis, $20 seems like a good price to learn the dark secrets of your engine oil...

Yes it would be a good test for the very reason you stated.

The computer averages all four cylinders at the O2 sensor so if you have a misfire for any reason in one cylinder it will pass the unburned oxygen thru to the O2 sensor it will get a overall reading of a lean condition and try to compensate by increasing the duration on all the injectors. This will cause three cylinders that are working to go into a overly rich condition, I don't think it would be enough to cause a misfire in those cylinders but it would cause a significant drop in gas mileage.

With the O2 sensor disconnected it will go into open loop and will use the map sensor and water temp as a guide to set the mixture. It will not harm the engine at all but you will also get a check engine light but that's easy to take care of.

Also a air vacuum leak at the intake manifold should not cause this problem. The computer controls the idle with a controlled vacuum leak. The map sensor picks it up and ads fuel and the result is a higher idle thus if you had a manifold vacuum leak unless it was a very large leak in only one cylinder the result would be a abnormally high idle and even the one cylinder leak would be most noticed at idle and it would not come and go.

timing instructions:

Thanks again, you know, I don't think the Haynes manual even mentions the red mark, only the white (that would be bad, being retarded 15+/-2 degrees... ooo...)

Any idea why the service connector has to be jumpered? Does that alter the operating profile of the engine any?

Grr... my borrowed timing light did not want to cooperate...

It flashed maybe 2 times the whole time I was out there... couldn't even approach a semblance of 'strobing'

but honda has called and said my part is in, so friday we'll get the next part of the saga.

Grr... my borrowed timing light did not want to cooperate...

It flashed maybe 2 times the whole time I was out there... couldn't even approach a semblance of 'strobing'

but honda has called and said my part is in, so friday we'll get the next part of the saga.

Did you try hooking it up to some other spark plug wire?? Might be a bad wire or something.

Update on the timing front:

Timing seems to be okay (I broke down and bought a timing light... cheap plastic piece of crap for $40... someone is making a killing off of these, considering the one I borrowed was from sears and for $50 had a heavy chrome body...) anyways, the timing:

there was a mark right at the indicator, and another mark (looked like ^^) about 15 degrees above it, similar to the placement indicated in the timing.pdf. However, it looks like the symbols on my drive wheel were reversed. I couldn't see any colors, but if they really were reversed, that would me that there would have to be another set of ^^ 15 degrees on the other side of the 'white' dash. This would also mean that I'm 15 degrees after TDC rather than before. This doesn't jive. If that were the reality, I don't think my engine would run at all.

In other news, my fiancé reports improved mileage after the fuel filter replacement... we'll see the numbers on that tomorrow...

So most likely timing is fine, mileage is improving (most likely), mode 3 seems to have been banished... what else is going on?

The only performance problems noted now is a slight bit of hesitation on acceleration. A little bit of 'putt putt' and 'thud thud' on take-off, but nothing earth-shaking.

I'm confused now...

Fiancé called on her way to Atlanta, said mileage is up to 28mpg! so we're not back up to 100% yet, but apparently something (my bet is the fuel filter) has helped the system along...

Going on this track, could the long time of not having a clean filter damaged the fuel pump? I know the pump is before the filter, so I'm not thinking contamination-damage, but stress-damage...

just a thought.

Honda took the car yesterday, kept it overnight, got the car back today.

No change.

They replaced the intake gaskets (I assume, there was no paperwork involved) and then thought my timing might be off, or that I had the wrong distributor on there.... (The wrong distributor?? wtf)

anyways... They said bring it back again next week... should I keep on trusting these yahoos? I appreciate the fact that they're doing all this work on my car pro-bono trying to hunt down the problem, but when does it all end?

I would call the Zone manager, but what could that do? Make them fix it faster/better/cheaper? Sigh...

Well, they've given up, final diagnosis is that they think I should replace my injectors (all 4.)

I initally balked at this ($514 dollars!!!)

So they came back and said that I should just go install some used ones off of another accord from a junkyard. (they said that would be more like $60.)

My hesitation is this: Why in the world would I need 4 new injectors?

They said that when they were testing, they put in some year-old used ones they had sitting on a shelf, and that it "showed a marked improvement in all but 1 cylinder." But, they would not tell me which cylinder remained 'bad' nor could they tell me how they characterized 'good' vs. 'bad'

All this has left me with a sour taste in my mouth... I think it's time to take the car somewhere else...

All this has left me with a sour taste in my mouth... I think it's time to take the car somewhere else...

I couldn't agree with you more. You could always try to find a local independent shop that specializes in Honda/Acura. I rarely trust anyone that wants to just start throwing parts at my car.

Results: (uninteresting/normal parts clipped)

(measured/universal averages)
Lead: 52/5
Molybdenum: 87/45
Silicon: 20/9
Sodium: 150/7
Viscosity @ 210F: 50.6/54-61
Fuel%: 0.5/<2.0
Antifreeze%: 0.3/0
Insolubles: 0.4/<0.6

Here's their analysis:
"We found enough sodium in this sample to think you're getting antifreeze in the oil. You noted you were concerned about upper end damage. we didn't find any problems there (that's aluminum and chromium) but we did find high lead, indicating bearing damage. Silicon also read high and it may show abrasive dirt circulating through the system. Silicon can also be an antifreeze inhibitor. If you're not ready to fix the problem, you can limit the damage done by the coolant by cutting back to 3000 miles on the oil. Check back to monitor."

So antifreeze in the oil equals dead head gasket right? The tech at Blackstone advised me to have a pressure test done of the cooling system. (They're great people there btw, very helpful)

What exactly is involved in this? If the failure is internal (which at some point it must be to be getting in the oil) would a pressure test be able to localize the damage?

Thanks in advance for any advice

A "leak down test" in the cylinders would be a better test than a 15 or so psi cooling system test. The leak down test would make the raditor bubble if it does have blown head gasket.

Replacing the head gasket..... well, it's one of the easier years.....

looking at p2 of that pdf, is it just for illustrative purposes, or must one largely disassemble the head to remove it from the block. (i.e. remove the sprocket, camshaft, lifters, valves etc) Or is it more of a unbolt the head from the block and remove it as one piece (or so.)

Any thoughts on what it might be other than a head gasket (if anything.) I'm trying to think of ways coolant and oil can mix, and short of a water line in the engine corroding out and dumping into the oil pan, I've got nothing.

For a head gasket, you should be able to leave the rocker arm assemble/cam shaft in tact....unless you need to have the head "shaved" to correct warpage.

If it has over heated in the past the head could be flawed with a hairline crack or have some warping going on.

Other than a flaw in the head or head gasket, I know of no other way for the oil & coolant to mix.

Now for bearings.... rod or main?


:dunno:

regarding bearings, I asked the tech the same question and she said that she didn't have enough data to indicate which it could be. I didn't even know lead was used in our engines, seems like a heavy/malleable metal would be inappropriate for something you want light and strong. My best guess would be that it's all bearings in the bottom: front, rear and rod bearings.

The tech also said that she didn't believe the damage was ultra-critical at this point, that if the antifreeze infiltration was stopped, the engine could be saved.

Pairing this information with the fact that I have lower compression in 2 of my cylinders (130psi vs. 175psi or so) I don't know which way to theorize, if it were a big chunk of head gasket missing, I would think my pressure would be lower, but if it were too small it wouldn't be exposing the cylinders to antifreeze since the water-jacket doesn't run between cylinders...

hmm...

any ideas on cost for head gasket replacement?

(also any ideas on why the dealership never wanted to run a leak-down test and find out the truth earlier???)

Thanks again... we'll get to the bottom of this eventually

I agree that it's savable with the info at this point.

Depends on how much of the head needs work.... valve guides, resurfacing... or just a gasket. I think Honda says 6 hours.... so call around & see. You'd probablky spend too much in tools to bother with it yourself.

If it's NEVER overheated, then it's likely just a flaw in the gasket itself. It happens. In that case usually no resurfacing is needed. Just tear it down, clean it up & replace the gasket & throw it back together. I feel it's small gasket flaw.

If it has a tiny hairline crack, it may be hard to find. Some years are more prone than others. My '86 got a raditor crack on the freeway, the temp shot up in a split second & we stopped. This all was within maybe 10 seconds. We cooled it, filled it, patched it, & went home (100 miles) without it even getting above normal. We replaced the raditor, then about a week later, a couple of hoses that cooked (they were still in perfect shape when this happened) a week later the water pump...... then it started running warmer than usual. It had a tiny little crack in the head. So then we replaced the head. That took care of it all. Whew! There for a bit I was wondering if she'd ever be trustworthy again! About a year later we bought the '02. She'd done wonder for that time & we sold her. I'd only put 50K on her in 10 years & she was the travel car.... meaning many trips to Disneyland!

About the other dealer not doing a leak down test............. :dunno:

Can you post all the results from the UOA? Please include the oil change interval, oil used, viscosity, oil filter used, air filter brand, and last time antifreeze and air filter were changed.

You definitely have a coolant leak. Could it be the intake manifold gasket?

It is conceivable that I have a problem with my intake manifold gasket(s), I did not notice bubbles in the oil (which I've been told can be indicative of coolant in the oil) until the dealership replaced the intake gaskets on a hunch that that was the problem. However, that could merely be coincidence. I wasn't checking the oil daily prior to the beginning of this mess naturally.

I would like to think that I can rely on the work that they did do, and that the intake gaskets are in like-new condition.

If they are faulty, what is the path the coolant would take to get from head->intake->combustion chamber/oil?

I didn't even know coolant ran through the intake, seems like a bad idea to have hot coolant running next to what is ostensibly cool air.

Additionally, having a head gasket failure fits nicely with the 2 cylinders having lower pressure.

Since I'm obviously experiencing the joys of coolant and oil mixing, my new concern is running low on coolant and experiencing an overheat. I've checked my radiator with the engine stone cold and the coolant has been at the very top of the radiator while the overflow bottle is just shy of MAX. With the engine at temperature I obviously can't just pop open the radiator, but I haven't had the opportunity to check the bottle then unfortunately. When should the bottle be low and when should it be full based on the temp envelope the engine experiences?

You can have coolant show up in the oil but not show an appreciable loss from the reservoir. That is one beauty of oil analysis. I have had this with my GM 3.1L V6. GM Coolant Tabs stopped it the 2nd time before the gasket went.

What oil was this? Some oils use sodium as an anti-foamant. Some oils use moly or it could be from ring coating wear.
What antifreeze are you using? Some ethylene glycol antifreeze use potassium as well, as was the case with me. I am now using propylene glycol in my GM to minimize the damage if/when the intake gasket goes again.

Your bearings are being eaten up. The oil has thinned quite a bit. May I suggest using Dyson Analysis (http://geusnet.com/~dave65/Dyson%20Analysis/index.htm) . He charges $20, I believe, and is well worth it for a professional "read". He will answer questions you may have & will help guide you through on what to fix.

I'll have to look back at the service records to see if the dealer marked which oil they'd used. As for using dyson, I'm pretty confident that the source of the problems has been well located at this point, I'm now waiting until tomorrow so I can contact my mechanic in Atlanta and get a quote for the necessary repairs.

Sigh, back to square one.

Talked to my mechanic today, his word was:

"we've never seen a head gasket just fail on an accord before, you probably need a new engine, $3200"

I pressed the issue saying 'well, what if I'm 100% positive it's never overheated and really only want a new head gasket?'

"$2000"


sigh...

I'm _this_ close to buying a junker for my sweetie to drive for the next 2 weeks and breaking out the old torque wrench and doing it myself...

wish I had an engine lift and the desire to pop in a new engine... then it would be H23A city baby!!!

We've seen "just a head gasket" fail.....but usually with overheating involved.

You can rent a hoist!

Just don't fall for those lines about "our used engines come from where they replace them every 50K..." it's NOT true!!! They've been using that tired line for years & it's a lie!

So sorry to hear that it's been "condemned"! I wonder what happened??? You bought it used, right? I wonder if there'd been much more neglected before you got it. Somehow the cars tell us.....later. The Ody in the family needs rings desperately from lack of oil changes in it's past. It was bought with about 85K on it. It's now got about 150K & really needs attention. Unforunately they need to get either tires (they're rotted) for our reclaimed '78 Chevy truck or a head gasket (they'd hoped it was an intake gasket...) for their '89 Chevy truck first.... since he uses the van for his business.

Is there any method you know of by which they can be sure it's just a head gasket before they tear the engine down? I've got a place that says they can do it for $600, but I'd hate for them to get halfway in and then say "whoops, the head and block are warped to hell, hope you like buying a new engine" and be out the $600 bucks..

also, assuming that a head gasket is a magic bullet (and that the head/block are immaculate) should I go ahead and have the timing belt/water pump replaced as well? Will that save on some labor?

Thanks

Unfortunately I know of no way to tell if the head is warped without removing it and using a straight edge on it. The way we usually handle it is to quote a tear down price to remove the Head then check to see if it's warped if it is then you send it out and have it resurfaced. I have never seen a block warp only the cylinder head. I don't understand why they think you would need to replace the engine, and even if it needed a engine why should you pay the full price quoted for a head gasket if they only do a quarter of the work? If you have any mechanical ability you might think about doing it yourself, have a machine shop inspect it for cracks and warp before you reinstall it and you should be fine.

If I remember correctly you have about 140k miles on the car. If you replaced the belts and water pump at 90k like you should have then you are throwing away 40k worth of use if it has not been done you really need to before it breaks on you

I replaced the last timing belt at ~100k, and am at 179k now (just rolled over this weekend) which means only ~10k of wasted time

I'm feeling a bit better about this... if there's no chance for the block to be warped (well next to no chance, since it's big hunk of steel in the F series right?) then I'm not worried about the head being warped/cracked/generally messed up, since an associate of mine had the head on his miata reworked (shaved, valve surfaces checked/machined) at a local shop for only ~100, meaning that the worst case is looking like:

$600 (labor/gasket parts)
+$100 (if machining necessary)
+$1-200 (if the head is cracked and I need one from the used auto parts yard)
=$6-900 which sounds much better than 2 or 3 thousand...

Plus, I'm only looking to have this car for another year or year and a half or so, then we'll be in the market for an 02 Accord EX in Eternal Blue Pearl (4 cylinder, please)

Car has been in the shop 1 day. Two piston rings are definitely worn as they wouldn't hold fluid overnight (the other two would.) The machine shop is currently examining the head for cracks/warpage. If the head needs to be machined, we might need to look at those rings... if not then maybe we'll get by without having to disassemble the bottom half of the engine.

-crosses fingers-

I don't want to have to rebuild this engine... grrr...

or, you could just get a new car.... :D

Or not.

Seriously though, even when we purchase this car's replacement (the aforementioned 2002 Accord EX in Eternal Blue Pearl) My baby will still stick around for quite a while hopefully... probably as 'the project car'... or maybe just as the junker to have when one of the other two is in the shop... who knows... (or I could sell it and get an old prelude to restore...)

yeah, i would keep it too...... my car is going to my brother if i do get a new car.... :yes: :D so, it'll still be in the family.....

Dude... stop taking it to the dealer.

1) Change your oil.
2) Use honda coolant, which contains special additives to prevent leaks. Go to subaru, and pick up a $2.00 "cooling system conditioner." On some newer subaru models, they develop minor leaks at the head gasket... this additive is a "friendly" stop-leak, and it will "fix" any problem you have.

Honda dealers will wring you dry $$$$$!!!! :thumbsdow

2) Use honda coolant, which contains special additives to prevent leaks. On some newer subaru models, they develop minor leaks at the head gasket... this additive is a "friendly" stop-leak, and it will "fix" any problem you have.


Are you sure about your statement of Honda coolant? What does it have in it that is so special?

No stop-leak will fix every coolant problem. I assume this conditioner is similer to the GM cooling system tabs which is similar to Bar's Leak?

“Safe” Coolant?
No Such Thing
You may have heard of a propylene-glycol-based
coolant that’s advertised as being “essentially
non-toxic” and “safer for people and pets.” Another
leading coolant manufacturer claims this advertisement
is very misleading and irresponsible.
In any event, treat this product the same as any other
coolants when it comes to potential hazards and
disposal. Ingestion of this coolant, even a small amount,
can be lethal. And you must still dispose of it in
accordance with local ordinances, particularly if it’s
used. Used coolant is almost always contaminated with
heavy metal deposits from the cooling system.
Remember, Genuine Honda Coolant is the only coolant
recommended for use in Honda automobiles. Other
coolants don’t contain the combination of additives that
we require for extended engine life and water pump seal
lubrication.


may 95 service news... this has an old article about coolants. I'm not finding a thing refering to extra sealant qualities.... just extra lubrication qualities.

After day 2 the report has come back:

Block: Generally good, piston rings in two cylinders 'leak', "engine is 'beautiful' inside, and has been well cared for in terms of oil changes"

Head: All valves seal properly, head itself is warped .010", tolerance is .003", will have to be machined.

Due to the reduction in head height by .01", compression will be raised and my mechanic (not the dealer anymore) recommends doing the rings also... hmpf... I'm so torn about this, on the one hand, I hate to spend all this money on the car and then have something else major go, but on the other hand, the car needs to last at least another year, and I would like to see it last another 3-4 in light duty... well I guess rings it is!

So I've been thinking and conferring ever since I gave the green light to have the rings redone and the head machined. I'm worried about what caused this in the first place...

The car has never 'smoked' in the sense of big billowy white clouds that cover whole lanes, only once has it belched out a big puff of white smoke, and that was after this problem manifested itself. Normally a few wisps of smoke could be seen, but that was usually early, when the engine was cold.

We have a few truths: the head was warped, the head was not cracked.

But what caused this? Can the head gasket fail in a way that is not evident to the naked eye that would allow coolant seepage into the combustion chambers, thus starving the highest point of the engine of coolant? Could this slow leak of coolant eventually result in enough loss to warp the head, causing an eventual catastrophic failure of the head-block interface?

What I'm getting at is: is there another problem that could have set this chain of events into motion that could possibly cause the same thing to happen in short order?

Are you sure about your statement of Honda coolant? What does it have in it that is so special?

No stop-leak will fix every coolant problem. I assume this conditioner is similer to the GM cooling system tabs which is similar to Bar's Leak?

When I worked for acura, it was said that non-oem coolant sometimes would seep past o-rings, etc, and Honda stuff had "conditioners" in it.....the honda stuff wasn't pricey anyway.

The stop leak thing was tiny.. much smaller than a "single dose" you'd buy in an auto parts store. It had the consistency of sour milk, not metal shavings or anything.

Hondas don't always billow out a bunch of smoke. I'm not sure why, but I've seen this several times. It must have something to do with WHERE the flaw is & how much goes into the cylinder vs. the seepage into the other places.

The only way a head can warp is from over heating.

Rings generally weaken from either infrequent oil changes or the wrong oil... but if the lubication wasn't right due to have some coolant in the oil, it could be the cause for the rings.

So the "chain of events" could've been if a previous owner wasn't up front or aware of an over heating incident from even a common thing, such as thermostat, fan, or anything. Fixed the problem, not knowing it had slightly damaged the head. Then over time the head's problem was worsened by the rings not doing their job correctly from the small amounts of coolant in there...

Most of the time if they have something that causes them to overheat briefly, the cause is fixed & the car is fine. BUT if it was more severe that thought. It happens.

Just a theory....

Easiest way for coolant to get into the combustion chamber is via the intake manifold, manifold gasket, or head gasket. I don't see how an intake leak could get coolant into the oil though.

Remember that coolant lines often run to the throttle body for the iac valve, but I don't think it's possible to have leakage there.

Head gasket leaks are not very common with hondas, in general. Certain cars are notorious for it... many years of the Toyota V6 for example.

may 95 service news... this has an old article about coolants. I'm not finding a thing refering to extra sealant qualities.... just extra lubrication qualities.

Thanks for this article! :thmsup:

' welcome.... glad it opened for you... :D

Called the mech. about an hour ago, said the engine cranked and ran beautifully... :biggrin:

unfortunately in the process of doing all the work, they cracked an AT line, so they are going to the junk yard to get a replacement right now. I looked on hondaautomotiveparts.com and couldn't find any 'lines' exterior to the AT housing. Is this a line that goes to the radiator for ATF cooling? Oh well, I can always find out in person later today!!! I'll post on tuesday letting everyone know how she drives....

(now I've got to break her in like she was brand new again... ha!)

Did they completely recondition the head? Meaning polishing the valves & putting in new valve guides.

Did you have them go ahead & put in new bearings too?

It's great that you'll be getting 'er back soon!

:thmsup:

I'm not sure what all was done to the head, I know they checked and made sure all the valves sealed properly, beyond that, they could have put magic corn flakes in it and I would never know. As for new bearings, I didn't direct them to, so I'm guessing no. It might have been in their standard operating procedures, but I can't say. I'll make sure to get the full rundown when I pick her up this afternoon...

All in all, I'm hoping that it runs for another 2 years. After that she will be the 'extra car'

and it those bearings ever fail, well then it's really H23 time! muahahahaha... :D

ps... total bill for:
New head gasket
Machining the head
Replacing the piston rings
and
replacing 2 heater hoses:

---------------------

Total: $1181.79 :jawdrop:

Good thing I get paid 3x in july...

they could have put magic corn flakes in it :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

It's wonderful that you're keeping your sense of humor! :thmsup:


That's really not too bad for all the work being done!! I expected you to say closer to 2K. I found one of our old price sheets from 5+ years ago for sidework & we charged 528 for the head gasket repair, plus 140 for the resurfacing, plus valve work if needed.... at the time our labor rate was 43.00 per hour & the work should be about 6 hours, sublet & parts. Since here, dealer labor rates are getting close to 150.00 per hour.... I really thought you'd be seeing a bigger bill!

I hadn't realized we kept one of our price sheets.... kinda cool to look at now.
:)


The bearings wouldn't have been done without your asking on headwork. I was just wondering if you'd asked. Of course, that would've been a complete rebuild & even more dollars!

Keep us updated on how she runs when you get home!

Well, she's back to life!

She drives just beautifully, just like she's supposed to!

The only things left to do are:

1) run a tank full through her and see if we're back up to 30mpg (I hope!)
2) take her back to the mech. in 1000mi to have the head re-torqued and the oil changed...

Even though we drove the RSX down to Orlando this weekend, it's very nice to have the accord back, we took her to the grocery tonight and she was very peppy for a 12 year old (what is that in car years?)

So a big shout out to everyone that helped with this little investigative procedure, especially to benjamming for letting me know that blackstone was only $20 and to princess for all the 'straight from the horses mouth' information!

Great to hear that it's back on the road. Many more happy miles to you!

Just had to show how clean the engine bay is now, the whole area under the dist. and on top of the tranny/starter motor used to be an oil slick, now it's super nice. Now I just need to get the interior cleaned back up again...

Even though we drove the RSX down to Orlando this weekend, it's very nice to have the accord back, we took her to the grocery tonight and she was very peppy for a 12 year old (what is that in car years?)

hmmm, in american car years, about 3 yrs old..... for a japanese car, 10.... :lmao:

:thmsup: yea!!!