http://money.cnn.com/2005/05/17/Autos/camry_hybrid/index.htm?cnn=yes

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Toyota Motor Corp., the leader in sales of hybrid gas-electric vehicles, is reportedly set to announce a hybrid version of its Camry sedan, the best-selling U.S. car model.

The New York Times reported the announcement is expected Tuesday. It is to be built at the company's Georgetown, Ky., plant that makes the Camry, making it the company's first U.S.-built hybrid.

Toyota has scheduled a press conference to be held simultaneously in both Georgetown and Washington D.C. for 11 a.m. ET, though it has not disclosed the subject matter.

The company makes a hybrid-only compact sedan, the Prius, which had U.S. sales of 53,991 last year. By comparison, the Camry had U.S. sales of 965,091.

Other automakers have released or planned hybrid versions of gasoline-only vehicles. Honda Motor Co. has hybrid versions of its Civic, a compact sedan, and the Accord, its mid-size sedan and the nation's No. 2 selling car model after the Camry.

Toyota just recently came out with its own hybrid versions of gas-only vehicles when it brought hybrid technology to two mid-size sport/utility vehicles for the first time. The hybrid Lexus RX 400h, the SUV for its luxury brand, went on sale in April, while a version of the lower-priced Toyota Highlander is set to go on sale in June.

But the Prius and the two SUVs are made in Japan.

I wonder how it will compete with the Accord?

To be quite honest, the hybrid Accord didn't catch my eye. Taking away the sunroof was a major minus for me and the gas mileage wasn't that much better.

I wonder if Toyota will one up them with this one?

i thought that the gas mileage was a big improvement compared to a v6 accord. i think toyota is really behind the curve on teh hybrid stuff. it will prolly take a while for everyone to jump on a hybrid camry.

i think toyota is really behind the curve on teh hybrid stuff.

Really? :scratch: What about the Prius?

As for the Accord, 29/37 vs 20/30 doesn't strike me as that big of an improvement, especially when the 4cyl is only 3MPG behind the hybrid's figures. The biggest improvement, IMO, with the HAH was horsepower, thanks to IMA, not fuel economy.

I had a few HAH owners complaining of mileage in the low-mid 20's. Not impressing me in the least, especially when I see some people getting low-mid 30's on the highway in their V6's and that's without cylinder deactivation? As for the Camry, I thought it was kind of a dumb idea unless it's a V6. The Prius is slightly bigger inside than the Camry, is more practical and has almost the same acceleration plus is reasonably priced as is. So what is the use of a Camry hybrid?

...The Prius is slightly bigger inside than the Camry, is more practical and has almost the same acceleration plus is reasonably priced as is. So what is the use of a Camry hybrid?


It will look and drive like a regular car, that's what. Honda should be very, very afraid, in my opinion. Driving the Prius (and I have, for 3 days) is not at all like driving a regular car, which has it's good and bad points.

I had hoped that Honda would make the HAH with the I4 rather than the V6, since it seemed like it would make more sense. However, I am not sure the I4 would do much, if any better, on the Hwy than the V6 with VCM unless it included lean-burn (like the Civic and Insight manual transmission versions) and this would be difficult since it is still a rather big, heavy car.

I think the Prius looks like a regular car. Yeah, it doesn't look like a Camry but that's why they used a different name. As for driving, I've never driven one but I can say that the Civic Hybrid I was in seemed pretty normal, except for rough starting off stoplights, and the Prius has gotten praise from every direction. And the Prius interior looks so much better than the Camry too. Well I dunno, maybe Toyota should drop a RX400h drivetrain in the Camry and call it the Type-X or something haha

Frankly I think people are hyping up hybrid technology way too much. While I do believe hybrids are great for city driving, they suck on highways. Also, converting energy from one form to another is one sure way to lose it.

We're getting a glimpse of the future.

... Also, converting energy from one form to another is one sure way to lose it.
But throwing it all out the window when you have a chance to recover at least some of it is even worse.

I just now took a quick glance at the article for the first time and I saw a couple things that raised my eyebrows.

1) Article said Camry sold over 950K cars last year in the U.S. alone. Impossible, Ford doesn't sell that many F-series trucks and they are the undisputed king of sales. The Accord probably doesn't break the 300K mark.

2) It said the Prius sold 53K last year. While this is most likely true, it doesn't mention that it was because Toyota only had the capacity to produce 50K cars. This year it's up to 100K, and I bet they'll sell every one of them and then some.

Hi Guys:

___Hybrid’s absolutely rule in the FE while out on the highway so you can put that rumor to bed. With Auto-stop (Honda IMA) and EV Mode (Toyota HSD) they can do well in the city as well but not with the performance some may be accustomed to from there other daily drivers is all.

___The Toyota Camry was the best selling car in the states last year with 426,000 + sold. The Ford F150 was in the 939,000 + range … All 53,000 + of the 2004 Prius’ produced were sold and the 2005’s production rate according to Toyota show ~ 100,000 in total will be built by years end for sale here in the NA market. All will probably be spoken for as well.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

....
___Hybrid’s absolutely rule in the FE while out on the highway so you can put that rumor to bed....

But their efficiency on the highway has little, if anything at all, to do with the electric motor component. And the flatter the terrain, even less. Ever wonder how much better your Insight would have done without the parasitic trickle charge?

It's mainly due to aerodynamics, hard tires, tall gearing, and small engines with little reserve or, as in the Accord, the ability to become that little engine with the VCM.

The Camry will do well, UNLESS they put too much premium on the price, because it looks like a regular car. And not any regular car, but a car that people recognize and are comfortable with. Not everyone is willing to stick out by driving an Insight or Prius.

Toyota is supposedly refreshing the Camry's headlights next year and bring out an all-new Camry in the middle of the 2007 model year. From the looks of the direction that company is heading, I'm not holding my breath. They're stopping production on the Celica after this model year; their last practical sports car ...

I'm going to wait until the Hybrids look and drive like regular cars AND can achieve over 40MPG in the city before jumping on the bandwagon. Never really liked the idea of having too many electronic things in the car.

Hi Sprocket:

___Hybrid’s efficiency on the highway has everything to do with the hybrid component. The Electrics allow a minimal performance boost for the smallish or detuned ICE’s in most cases to maintain an acceptable performance envelope thus allowing higher FE on the highway because of the smaller ICE’s. Toyota’s Prius I and II use an Atkinsonized intake on the 1.5L Toyota Echo block for higher FE. The Ford Escape HEV uses an Atkinsonized intake on the Mazda procured 2.3 L ICE and the electrics help bring the relatively heavy vehicle back into the < 10 second to 60 realm for day to day driving. The Honda Insight uses the lightest weight-highest tech 1.0 L w/ lean-burn and Fuel Cut in existence. The electrics in the Insight also act as a Balance shaft thus allowing lighter rotational mass inside the Insight’s ICE thus allowing more FE while on the highway. The HCH uses the smallish 1.3 L lean-burn w/ almost every injection Fuel Cut trick in the book on the ULEV’s vs. the 1.7 - 2.0 L on the regular Civic’s. Even the Lean-Burn Civic Coupe (non-hybrid) cannot touch an HCH when pushed to its highway limits (55 vs. 70 – 75 mpg over a tank real world). The AH in particular uses IMA to maintain ECO mode before dropping back to 6-cylinder operation.

___The reason Hybrid’s offer such high FE on the highway for the size, weight, and amenities they are carrying is because of that smallish or detuned ICE other then the AH, RXh, and HH. The AH has already been explained w/ its ECO mode being IMA assisted. Looking at the specs of the RXh and the HH, it appears there was some detuning of the 3.3 L compared to the rest of the Toyota/Lexus lineup using the same ICE although Toyota has stated they did not atkinsonize the intakes? They did something to remove HP/add efficiency from those blocks for higher Highway FE but I am not sure what it was if it wasn’t Atkinsonized? I should add a caveat about the Toyota HSD and Ford eCVT (basically a Toyota HSD) equipped hybrid’s. Since they have to produce electricity when the ICE is running for gear ratio changes in the HSD, I believe they have a slight fundamental flaw. Because of this change in energy from chemical (gas) to mechanical (ICE) to electrical (generator set) and back to mechanical (motor set/transmission), Toyota’s HSD and Ford’s eCVT highway FE suffers by a small % vs. a straight atkinsonized ICE in a similar automobile with lower overall performance. I bet Toyota is working on a way to somehow change their HSD in future hybrid’s to remove this one inefficient method of propulsion and when they do, expect to see the highway EPA estimates climb to match the City estimates or at least close to them anyway. We might see Plug-In hybrid’s before that time but it is something that has been bothering me for years in regards to the Prius I and II’s setup and the real-world highway FE achieved in those particular hybrid’s.

___The highway component of a Hybrid’s FE is not that much more then a non-hybrid equipped automobile but it is enough to raise the bar that 20 – 30% to make them interesting indeed. IMHO, the hybrid’s real FE raising attribute is the game gauge or Instantaneous FE meter(s). Not so much the Prius I and II as their FCD resolution is too large (0 to 100 mpg in 4 - 25 mpg increments) but the Insight, HCH, and AH or std. Accord’s w/ NAVI, MDX, TSX which allow a real-time continuous feedback to help you learn how to achieve higher FE in all aspects of your driving envelope vs. most automobiles without them. This helps both in the city and highway FE department.

___I can compete with most hybrid drivers on the highway other then the Insight’s because I really push the envelope. The Automatic gets in the way here but I do the best I can with Honda’s relatively powerful and very FE 2.4L I-4 … When competing against guys that drive hybrid’s (Prius and HCH’s) that push their own respective automobiles FE envelopes, I do not stand a chance :(

___Finally, I have mentioned in other hybrid forums that if I could have gotten my hands on a non-hybridized Insight 5-speed (0 – 60 in ~ 12.5 seconds), the highway FE would have improved (much less weight) but I would still have had to have that extra rotational mass of a balance shaft or mass of a balancer setup. A key to the highest FE is the IMA start. The Toyota Vitz (I think that is what they call it?) available in Japan and a particular Peugeot or Vauxhall available in Europe have an Autostop setup. I would really need this for the smooth starts/stops because Forced Auto-stops in a non-IMA equipped Honda are a bit on the rough side as you can well imagine. As for the parasitic losses of IMA, there was little in fact other then the very very small assist/charge cycle of the Quasi-balance shaft action. I can get into the minimal 12V use techniques but that is not for this thread. The BCM only allowed the MGSet to charge (parasitic loss) when the 12 V fell to a particular voltage and once the SoC meters read 19 or 20 bars, there was no hidden or forced charging present. It was actually the weight that I objected to carrying around for very little to no reason while out on the highway :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

I wonder if hybrid Camry will be built with new designed chasis?

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/t81131.html

If they bring a Camry hybrid with I4 engine (which would make sense) - that will sell like hotcakes, as it is going to be relatively cheap + many people just don't get into hatch design of the Prius.

IMHO Honda screwed up by not making a I4 Accord hybrid. The hybrid crowd does not necessarily care so much that it is the "most powerful hybrid". Plus it is not a FULL hybrid like the Prius and Camry will be...

With Nissan Altima 2.5 (I4) coming out as hybrid too in 2006 - I think Honda does have reasons to worry.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/MeetJoeAsian/camry7.jpg

VS.

http://t.wieck.com/PV/2005/01/05/TYT2005010531901_PV.jpg

:dunno:

As for the forum, well...let's say, I've been there and it's pretty weak. Can't find any info that's worth a rat's fart.

Hi Sprocket:

___Hybrid’s efficiency on the highway has everything to do with the hybrid component. The Electrics allow a minimal performance boost for the smallish or detuned ICE’s in most cases to maintain an acceptable performance envelope thus allowing higher FE on the highway because of the smaller ICE’s. Toyota’s Prius I and II use an Atkinsonized intake on the 1.5L Toyota Echo block for higher FE. The Ford Escape HEV uses an Atkinsonized intake on the Mazda procured 2.3 L ICE and the electrics help bring the relatively heavy vehicle back into the < 10 second to 60 realm for day to day driving. The Honda Insight uses the lightest weight-highest tech 1.0 L w/ lean-burn and Fuel Cut in existence. The electrics in the Insight also act as a Balance shaft thus allowing lighter rotational mass inside the Insight’s ICE thus allowing more FE while on the highway. The HCH uses the smallish 1.3 L lean-burn w/ almost every injection Fuel Cut trick in the book on the ULEV’s vs. the 1.7 - 2.0 L on the regular Civic’s. Even the Lean-Burn Civic Coupe (non-hybrid) cannot touch an HCH when pushed to its highway limits (55 vs. 70 – 75 mpg over a tank real world). The AH in particular uses IMA to maintain ECO mode before dropping back to 6-cylinder operation.

___The reason Hybrid’s offer such high FE on the highway for the size, weight, and amenities they are carrying is because of that smallish or detuned ICE other then the AH, RXh, and HH. The AH has already been explained w/ its ECO mode being IMA assisted. Looking at the specs of the RXh and the HH, it appears there was some detuning of the 3.3 L compared to the rest of the Toyota/Lexus lineup using the same ICE although Toyota has stated they did not atkinsonize the intakes? They did something to remove HP/add efficiency from those blocks for higher Highway FE but I am not sure what it was if it wasn’t Atkinsonized? I should add a caveat about the Toyota HSD and Ford eCVT (basically a Toyota HSD) equipped hybrid’s. Since they have to produce electricity when the ICE is running for gear ratio changes in the HSD, I believe they have a slight fundamental flaw. Because of this change in energy from chemical (gas) to mechanical (ICE) to electrical (generator set) and back to mechanical (motor set/transmission), Toyota’s HSD and Ford’s eCVT highway FE suffers by a small % vs. a straight atkinsonized ICE in a similar automobile with lower overall performance. I bet Toyota is working on a way to somehow change their HSD in future hybrid’s to remove this one inefficient method of propulsion and when they do, expect to see the highway EPA estimates climb to match the City estimates or at least close to them anyway. We might see Plug-In hybrid’s before that time but it is something that has been bothering me for years in regards to the Prius I and II’s setup and the real-world highway FE achieved in those particular hybrid’s.

___The highway component of a Hybrid’s FE is not that much more then a non-hybrid equipped automobile but it is enough to raise the bar that 20 – 30% to make them interesting indeed. IMHO, the hybrid’s real FE raising attribute is the game gauge or Instantaneous FE meter(s). Not so much the Prius I and II as their FCD resolution is too large (0 to 100 mpg in 4 - 25 mpg increments) but the Insight, HCH, and AH or std. Accord’s w/ NAVI, MDX, TSX which allow a real-time continuous feedback to help you learn how to achieve higher FE in all aspects of your driving envelope vs. most automobiles without them. This helps both in the city and highway FE department.

___I can compete with most hybrid drivers on the highway other then the Insight’s because I really push the envelope. The Automatic gets in the way here but I do the best I can with Honda’s relatively powerful and very FE 2.4L I-4 … When competing against guys that drive hybrid’s (Prius and HCH’s) that push their own respective automobiles FE envelopes, I do not stand a chance :(

___Finally, I have mentioned in other hybrid forums that if I could have gotten my hands on a non-hybridized Insight 5-speed (0 – 60 in ~ 12.5 seconds), the highway FE would have improved (much less weight) but I would still have had to have that extra rotational mass of a balance shaft or mass of a balancer setup. A key to the highest FE is the IMA start. The Toyota Vitz (I think that is what they call it?) available in Japan and a particular Peugeot or Vauxhall available in Europe have an Autostop setup. I would really need this for the smooth starts/stops because Forced Auto-stops in a non-IMA equipped Honda are a bit on the rough side as you can well imagine. As for the parasitic losses of IMA, there was little in fact other then the very very small assist/charge cycle of the Quasi-balance shaft action. I can get into the minimal 12V use techniques but that is not for this thread. The BCM only allowed the MGSet to charge (parasitic loss) when the 12 V fell to a particular voltage and once the SoC meters read 19 or 20 bars, there was no hidden or forced charging present. It was actually the weight that I objected to carrying around for very little to no reason while out on the highway :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

What the hell did you just say? :)

What the hell did you just say? :)


:) I only caught a few of the acronyms in that post.. HCH = Honda Civic Hybrid, FE= Fuel efficiency, etc... I couldn't make much sense out of that post either. :D

Hi All:

___Damn guys, we are all automobile enthusiasts in some form or we wouldn’t be posting here, right? Hopefully the following will help?

___In the order that they appear:

ICE(s): Internal Combustion Engine(s)
Prius I: 1997 – 2993
Prius II: 2004 – present
Atkinsonized intake: Intake valve(s) are maintained open for a short period while the piston is rising in the cylinder pushing some of the intake charge back into the intake manifold. This lowers pumping losses and adds a few percentage points to an ICE’s efficiency at the expense of torque and overall HP.
1.5L: 1.5 Liter ICE
FE: Fuel Efficiency or Fuel Economy
HEV: Hybrid Electric Vehicle
Lean-Burn: Method employed by some Honda’s (not including Diesels because diesels are always lean-burn) to use a 22:1 Fuel-Air mixture (actually 22 parts air to 1 part fuel) for a short period of time vs. 14.7:1 for everything else in a std. ICE.
Fuel Cut: Method employed to remove any fuel from hitting the injectors. The ICE is still spinning as you are coasting to a stop but with no or little fuel being used depending on the method of Fuel Cut employed.
HCH: Honda Civic Hybrid
AH: Honda Accord Hybrid. Most call it an HAH
IMA: Integrated Motor Assist. Honda’s hybridization HW including the battery pack, inverter, Motor/Generator Set, controllers, and cooling fans.
ECO mode: The AH’s VCM (Variable Cylinder Management) mode where it runs on just 3-cylinders.
RXh: Lexus RX400 hybrid using a detuned 3.3 L ICE from the regular RX330.
HH: Toyota Highlander Hybrid
HSD: Hybrid Synergy Drive or Toyota’s hybrid HW including the pack, inverter, PSD (Power Split Device), planetary gear set, (2) Motor Generator sets (1 smaller one for starting the ICE and 1 larger one for regen braking, assist, and controlling the gear ratios), and the internal pressurized liquid and fan cooling.
Ford eCVT: Electronic - Continuously Variable Transmission which is very similar to the Toyota HSD transmission.
EPA: Environmental Protection Agency
Plug In Hybrid’s (PHEV’s): A hybrid with an even larger pack that can be plugged in to an outlet of varying types at night so you do not need the ICE to run at all for shorter trips of up to 50 + miles.
IMHO: In my humble opinion
FCD: Fuel Consumption Display
NAVI: Navigation unit
MDX: Acura’s SUV
TSX: Acura’s small sports sedan
IMA start: When the IMA unit starts the Honda Hybrid’s instead of the regular 12V starter. This is really cool ;)
Auto-stops: When the ICE is shut down while the car is either stopped or coming to a stop
12V: 12 Volts
BCM: Battery Control Module
SoC: State of Charge of the large traction battery in a hybrid

___I hope I got that all right ;)

___Rookie, until we know the details, who knows? I saw the pics over at Temple of VTEC and it sure looks slick. Cd (Coefficient of Drag) in the mid 20’s for sure. I just don’t know about the hybrid’s ICE choice yet? Will they use the 3.3 L similar to the RXh and HH or a modded or brand new 1.8 to 2.0L for even higher FE? DI (Direct Injection) has been discussed in that thread and only the European’s have it in some of their high end Audi’s that I know of. GM and Honda have the motors but no discussion of release to the public so far. I cannot wait and Toyota sure is on a roll as of late.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

Hey a lot of us aren't nuclear engineers. How about putting it in laymen's terms. I think if I tried, I can sum up all those posts in a paragraph.