Greetings and Salutations...

About 5 months ago, I acquired a 2002 Accord Coupe LX V6 with (presently) 81,200 miles. Relying strictly on Honda's legendary reputation for quality and reliability, and given my long experience (over 42 years) with Honda's products, I plunked my money down and drove it home. Big mistake. I should have done my homework (read, extensive research) beforehand.

As many of you are well aware, the V6 Accords have the Godforsaken "B7XA" automatic transmissions that are notoriously prone to fail. (Far as I am concerned, the tranny is a "ticking time bomb.") I have thoroughly read enough 6th-Gen owner "horror stories" to overwhelm my heart and mind.

Although I have no problems at the moment, I anticipate them. Therefore, I am going to install the CompTech 560-025 transmission cooler kit, along with an inline filter used on the 2003-2009 Honda Element. In addition, I will change the tranny fluid at least once/twice per year, regardless of mileage driven. I may even switch to RedLine trans fluid. While these "mods" may not help, I don't believe they will hurt anything.

If I had a loose $4+ Grand laying around, I'd consider buying/installing a Dr. Evil tranny. With (their claimed) bulletproof clutch pack friction materials, bearings, and related parts, I think I would likely sleep alot better at night.

While I find this Accord delightful, I don't want it to rudely disappoint me. With my severe peripheral neuropathy, resultant from (the curse of) Diabetes, walking is now not one of my favorite sports.

Being a retired Mechanical Engineer, I prefer to solve a problem with 10,000 percent overkill measures. Best way to go duck hunting is with a Bazooka.

Anybody out there with any experience using what I state in my third paragraph, I'd sure like to hear your thoughts and considered opinions.

Robert Warden

These measures are great and all, but overheating isn't the problem.

The problem lies in how the gears change. In 1997 Honda redesigned the AT so that it would pre-engage the next gear before it actually engaged it. So you have to gears engaged at once, with only one being used. This was in an effort to create smoother shifts, and it works. Drive any Accord pre-1997, and the difference is dramatic. However I feel the older ones shifted faster. JMO, though.

Just change the ATF with the Honda fluid every 15-30k miles depending on how you drive, and 'taking it easy' is rumored to not be any better for these. When they are driving in a more spirited manner, the 'pre-engagement' of the next gear is often avoided. A friend of mine had a 98 with 212k miles. Orig AT, both he and his father drove the car like it was a race car all those miles. Infact, they only changed the fluid every 90k miles. So who knows. It's really just a chancy thing either way.

Just hope for the best bud!

Not all of the transmissions have problems. Also, if your car develops a problem, take it to your dealer and see what they can do for you. My dealer replaced mine at 93,000 miles a year out of the extended warranty. They even paid for a rental car for the three days it took them to get the re-manufactured transmission and to the repairs.

First off, good luck with the car.

Secondly, as Accordlover and Flyboy said, not all of them have problems. My professor has a 99 with 202,000 miles on the original transmission. Luck of the draw I suppose.

Question. I recently got a Honda Accord Coupe V6 in early October of last year. The transmission wasn't all the bad at first, well. I never accidently pulled out infront of a speeding eighteen wheeler at first either. When I accelerate faster than I normally would, not reaching 3.5 really at all, it'll "kick" when it hit's second and sometimes third gear. It does it with the other gears too, although if I take it "easy" it shifts just fine, smooth sailing. Would changing the transmission fluid and filter help it at all? Thanks! It WOULD be nice if Stevenson Honda Dealership replaced my transmission for me for free, but since I bought it from a Private Party, I doubt they would even think about it, and it's wayyy out of warrenty by now, lol. Thanks!

Although I have no problems at the moment, I anticipate them. Therefore, I am going to install the CompTech 560-025 transmission cooler kit, along with an inline filter used on the 2003-2009 Honda Element. In addition, I will change the tranny fluid at least once/twice per year, regardless of mileage driven. I may even switch to RedLine trans fluid. While these "mods" may not help, I don't believe they will hurt anything.

What kind of driving do you? If it's not excessively hilly and doesn't have any single extended grade (6-8% of 10+ miles), I wouldn't bother with the cooler.

If you're going to install a filter, you might as well use a MagneFine, which has a paper element and a magnetic element. When I cut mine apart, there was a LOT of turd on the magnetic element, and it had only 10K.

I use Amsoil on the Odyssey, that's what most people use on OdyClub. Not sure if Redline will hurt, probably not...I recall FredSVT using it in their 6th gen AV6.

Question. I recently got a Honda Accord Coupe V6 in early October of last year. The transmission wasn't all the bad at first, well. I never accidently pulled out infront of a speeding eighteen wheeler at first either. When I accelerate faster than I normally would, not reaching 3.5 really at all, it'll "kick" when it hit's second and sometimes third gear. It does it with the other gears too, although if I take it "easy" it shifts just fine, smooth sailing. Would changing the transmission fluid and filter help it at all? Thanks! It WOULD be nice if Stevenson Honda Dealership replaced my transmission for me for free, but since I bought it from a Private Party, I doubt they would even think about it, and it's wayyy out of warrenty by now, lol. Thanks!

Change the fluid, I don't think you have a filter though. Fluid change is pretty cheap even if it doesn't help, you won't be out by much.

Question. I recently got a Honda Accord Coupe V6 in early October of last year. The transmission wasn't all the bad at first, well. I never accidently pulled out infront of a speeding eighteen wheeler at first either. When I accelerate faster than I normally would, not reaching 3.5 really at all, it'll "kick" when it hit's second and sometimes third gear. It does it with the other gears too, although if I take it "easy" it shifts just fine, smooth sailing. Would changing the transmission fluid and filter help it at all? Thanks! It WOULD be nice if Stevenson Honda Dealership replaced my transmission for me for free, but since I bought it from a Private Party, I doubt they would even think about it, and it's wayyy out of warrenty by now, lol. Thanks!

Take it to your dealer since you are within the seven year extended warrantee, even though you have exceeded the milage. They may be able to help you out since this is a known defect. They may replace it free, or they may give you the transmission for free and you pay the installation labor. If you don't ask they can't help. If the dealer can't help, then call or write to Honda of America and explain your problem. You are not dealing with GM. This is a safety issue and I don't think Honda wants its lawyers standing in front of a jury explaining why they did not repair a known defect. Or at least made an attempt to help you out.

This is a safety issue and I don't think Honda wants its lawyers standing in front of a jury explaining why they did not repair a known defect. Or at least made an attempt to help you out.

How is this a safety issue? A car with almost 130,000 miles breaks down because the manufacturer did not fix it for free? That's not gonna hold up well in court. We don't even know if it's really a tranny problem, or how the car was maintained previously.

The weak link in the B7XA trans is the differential carrier bearings, not the frictions.
The bearings have a nasty tendency to self destruct, as imo they are too small to handle the torque from the V6, the case size in this unit is no larger than what was in the older 4 cylinder cars.

As the bearings come apart, small metallic pieces end up going through the transmission, getting caught up in the valves and other hydraulic controls. This then causes slippage that most cant' even feel and eventual friction failure. The first signs of this are neutraling going around corners, or flaring on upshifts.

Many of these units didn't fail friction wise, the carrier bearings come completely apart, causing left axle seal leakage as the diff falls down in the case putting strain on the axle as it goes through the case.

The '98 here had carrier bearing issues starting at 107k (1.5 years old) and the trans lasted till 159k when the ring and pinion nearly came apart when backing out of the driveway one morning, not to mention the monthly axle seal replacement for the last 4 months it lived. I used Redline D4 in this trans from 107 to 159, I feel if I had used it all along it would have lived a longer life. D4 is an atf that is GL5 gear oil rated.

I've seen at least a dozen other '98-'99 4 and V6 cars have the same issue.

In 2000 they changed the design of the bearing area, but then they started having issues with friction failure in 2nd gear. This was when Honda upped the coverage to 10/109 or longer now.

When they went to the early 5 speed autos, the 3rd gear frictions had issues, as well as lack of lube to the 2nd gear assembly that was corrected via a recall, then another redesign.

Changing the fluid very often is necessary if you use Z1. I'd use Redline D4 as a replacement, although I wouldn't stretch change intervals.

Putting in a magnefine on the output to the cooler is a very good idea. The newer 5 speed units have pressure filters, but some aren't serviceable easily or at all depending on their location. Some are in the bellhousing or side of the case in the cooler circuit, some are inline on top of the unit.

The only reason I said it's a safety issue is because the Honda dealer said it was. "Honda is going to pay for a rental car because this is a safety issue and we don't want you driving your car for the two days it will take to get the new transmission here." When the transmission begins to exhibit failure the car can't smoothly accelerate from first to second or second to third. The car slows down and between shifts and becomes a traffic hazard.

Honda didn't ask any questions about how the car was maintained. They just replaced the transmission.

I used Redline D4 in this trans from 107 to 159, I feel if I had used it all along it would have lived a longer life. D4 is an atf that is GL5 gear oil rated.

The GL-5 rating is irrelevant in this case.

I'd agree that using one of the premium synthetic multi-vehicle fluids may allow for better wear protection. Amsoil, Redline, Valvoline Maxlife, etc. The multi-vehicle fluids are not Honda approved, but the additive manufacturer (Lubrizol) has bench and field tested the additive package in popular applications to ensure compatibility.

I'd agree that using one of the premium synthetic multi-vehicle fluids may allow for better wear protection. Amsoil, Redline, Valvoline Maxlife, etc. The multi-vehicle fluids are not Honda approved, but the additive manufacturer (Lubrizol) has bench and field tested the additive package in popular applications to ensure compatibility.
Amsoil lists their ATF as a suitable replacement for ATF-Z1, as does Mobil1 and others. Don't know about Maxlife and Redline but I've seen both used in Honda trannies without additives with no problems.

If you use any other fluid than Z1 while under warranty, especially if you've gotten a reman unit, the warranty is voided.

There are no fluids that are Honda approved other than their Z1. I do agree however that Z1 is lacking, for lack of a better term.

Even though the other oil companies say they are "approved" it's meaningless.

The US has such lax labeling requirements that you have to research very carefully what you use in any modern car.

I wish we had the Euro ACEA requirements here. It's the way it should be. The car makers tell the oil companies what they want, not the other way around. This is why you see so many proprietary fluids coming for cars today that you'll never find outside of various dealerships.

There is no such thing as "universal" fluids of any kind, period.

Just take a look at a place like motorcraft.com and look at their oils catalog at all the different atfs that Ford uses across their car lines.

GM is no different as they use various shared development trannies with Ford.

Chrysler uses many MBZ units, and their fluids are even more stringent.

If you use any other fluid than Z1 while under warranty, especially if you've gotten a reman unit, the warranty is voided.

I thought manufacturers cannot deny warranty coverage unless they provide the fluid required for free, per Magnusson-Moss

Even though the other oil companies say they are "approved" it's meaningless.

Sure, except that Amsoil provides its own written warranty.

https://www.amsoil.com/warranty.aspx

Amsoil lists their ATF as a suitable replacement for ATF-Z1, as does Mobil1 and others. Don't know about Maxlife and Redline but I've seen both used in Honda trannies without additives with no problems.

Maxlife has been listing ATF-Z1 compatibility for several years. Redline recently changed its formulation and is now sold as a multi-vehicle ATF.

I thought manufacturers cannot deny warranty coverage unless they provide the fluid required for free, per Magnusson-Moss
Sure, but manufacturers can require you to use a fluid that meets their specification. They just cannot require you to use a specific brand. At least that's what I have been told.

With Honda, the ATF-Z1 formulation is proprietary. No one other than Honda and the additive company that they worked with knows the full details of the formulation. An outside vendor cannot prove that their formulation meets the ATF-Z1 requirements as they do not know what the standards or the requirements are.

However, major additive companies such as Lubrizol have reverse engineered the ATF-Z1 fluid and have been able to develop a product that will work in this application. They have demonstrated this through bench and field testing.


Sure, except that Amsoil provides its own written warranty.

https://www.amsoil.com/warranty.aspx
Except it's very difficult to prove a fluid-related failure. It's easy to prove that the fluid is not ATF-Z1, but it's difficult to prove that Amsoil caused the problem. The chances of you collecting from that warranty is close to nil. Also, it isn't just Amsoil that offers their own written warranty, every major oil company offers the same written guarantee.

However, major additive companies such as Lubrizol have reverse engineered the ATF-Z1 fluid and have been able to develop a product that will work in this application. They have demonstrated this through bench and field testing.

I'd sure like to see what kind of testing they did on ATF-Z1 and how they can prove to me that it will do better than Amsoil over 200,000 miles? Especially when you consider that ATF-Z1 is essentially a crappy fluid, is it really necessary to reverse engineer it? :dunno:

FredSVT:

Your excellent points (along with others) are well taken. I am fully aware of the carrier bearing issues associated with the "B7XA" tranny, hence my desire (read, urgency) to upgrade to a superior lubricant when I install the CompTech (560-025) trans cooler kit.

Honda's auto trannies do not have the design of older-style, conventional units which typically feature a Sun gear, planetary gears, and an annulus. No. IMO, the Honda automatic tranny is a hydraulically-shifted manual gearbox. Just that Honda replaced the brass synchro rings with wet clutch packs, then added an ECU-controlled torque converter unit. Why? Seems to me that Honda refused to pay royalties/licensing fees to Borg-Warner, et al. They did it THEIR way.

In perfect agreement with you and others, I believe Honda's Z-1 ATF to be somewhat inferior to various alternatives. I also own a 1986 LX-i Hatchback five-speed (now with 215,000, two-owner miles) that has enjoyed nothing but AmsOil 10W/40 in the gearbox the past 16 years of my ownership. It's original tranny always shifts like the proverbial hot knife slicing through butter. Never a problem!

Ergo, I will acquire an AmsOil D4 equivalent (from my insurance agent, who also happens to be an AmsOil dealer) when I (soon again) change the trans fluid in my '02 V6 car.

I am (to date) undecided about what trans filter I may use. I'd like to see the guts of the 2003-2009 Element filter (Honda P/N: 25430-PLR-003). While not familiar with the MagneFine inline filters, I will certainly put them on my "short list" as I like what was said about their construction: a magnetic ring in conjuction with pleated-paper element.

Hopefully reduced heat and friction (vis-a-vis the cooler unit and fluid upgrade), along with an inline filter will extend the life of my "B7XA." If not, I gave it my best shot.

Robert Warden

I am (to date) undecided about what trans filter I may use. I'd like to see the guts of the 2003-2009 Element filter (Honda P/N: 25430-PLR-003). While not familiar with the MagneFine inline filters, I will certainly put them on my "short list" as I like what was said about their construction: a magnetic ring in conjuction with pleated-paper element.

The 4cyl trannies all use the same filter, TSX included...not much to see though

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14699

I'd sure like to see what kind of testing they did on ATF-Z1 and how they can prove to me that it will do better than Amsoil over 200,000 miles? Especially when you consider that ATF-Z1 is essentially a crappy fluid, is it really necessary to reverse engineer it? :dunno:

ATF also provides the correct frictional properties for proper engagement of the clutches, which is what makes it so different than engine oil.

Their testing is considered proprietary, but Lubrizol did post a detailed report of how fluids using their 9680 family of additive packages would compare to the OE fluid in their Driveline magazine in 2008. I tried searching for it online, but the link is broken. However, I did download it a while ago and I can send it to you if you PM me your e-mail address.

Lubrizol doesn't make fluids, they just engineer the additive packages and work with base oil manufacturers and the final blender (e.g. Pennzoil, Amsoil, etc). Amsoil uses a custom additive package by Lubrizol for their Universal ATF.

I thought manufacturers cannot deny warranty coverage unless they provide the fluid required for free, per Magnusson-Moss


Sure, except that Amsoil provides its own written warranty.

https://www.amsoil.com/warranty.aspx


Magnusson-Moss is basically side-stepped by almost all major manufacturers. Just look at all the proprietary oils and transmission fluids, you can't just go down to your local store and buy them. But, they are available right over your local dealer's parts counter. Take a look at BMW M3s with the inline 6, when it came out it only could use BMW's 0w60 oil. Tell me where you could actually find this in the USA at that time? Even now, it's nearly impossible to get a hold of.


Amsoil's warranty is as useless as the paper it's written on. They "approve" their oils for applications that a manufacturer would never allow. Amsoil's products are not approved by any engine manufacturers for anything made anywhere, period, no matter what it says on the bottle.

I've personally seen 6 engines destroyed while using what they recommended for use in those particular engines, using their bypass filtration system AND using their oil analysis. When one of the engines started knocking, the oil was sent to another lab and the lab actually called the owner telling him that he should stop driving the truck immediately. It was too late, the engine blew up. He contacted Amsoil and was told, well, you're out of luck. That cost him nearly 20 large at the time to put that motor in.

That's the reason I'd never use an amsoil product, not even for my lawnmower. If I want to use a specialty oil, it'll be Redline. All the racers that use it have proven it's quality.

Fluid "compatibility" and actual manufacturer approval are two entirely different things. If a transmission fails while under warranty, and the fluid is sent out for analysis, (rare) and it comes back not what it's supposed to be, the warranty is void. Ford does this all the time for fuels, oils and coolants in diesels.

That's the reason I'd never use an amsoil product, not even for my lawnmower. If I want to use a specialty oil, it'll be Redline. All the racers that use it have proven it's quality.

Fred, again you make a very fair point; I've heard of/seen many examples of machine (read, engine) failure using AmsOil lubricants. But that was long years ago, not within the past 15 years of my own personal experience with AmsOil products.

FYI, I have used AmsOil 10W/40 ONLY in my '86's transaxle. I use exclusively Mobil One (10W/30) in the engine. Ditto for for my '02 (Mobil One 5W/20).

If you've had great luck with RedLine products, then I am amenable to making your recommended tranny fluid conversion to RedLine. My "hangup" is there are (lamentably) no RedLine dealers in my immediate area.

After researching MagneFine inline filters, I think that's the way I will go. Just need to determine my line I.D. and direction of flow. I'm thinking 11/32" or 3/8" (for inside diameter) and far left fitting (when facing the car) is the output side. IMO, filter should be located on the inlet side of the cooler unit.

To be very clear: Filter the fluid on the OUTPUT side, as it enters the cooler. Intended result: Cleaner, cooler ATF reentering the transmission.

Robert Warden

Fred,

Looking at a 03 accord 6-6 3rd gear is a little tough, way different than my 08. I was looking at the GM stuff that the TL owners use and they say its good. Do you think that the 03 6-6 will shift better using the GM or should i go right to redline. The car has 125k on it. the owner did the timing belt just now and the last time he change the oil was at 60k. so what would you recommend? thanks for your input.

[QUOTE=Fredsvt;369683] GM is no different as they use various shared development trannies with Ford. QUOTE]

Fred, sharing technology is rather "cost effective." Why reinvent the wheel?

Per rumor (if not in fact), I have heard that Honda got "help" from GM (nee, Garbage Motors) in the development of the "B7XA" and related auto trannies.

In exploded diagrams I have seen of the "B7XA," it features a three-shaft design (main shaft, countershaft, intermediary/transfer shaft). IMO, what was originally conceived for four-cylinder engine applications ended up behind the J-series V6 engines. Result? With its inferior differential carrier bearings, Honda set themselves up for failure, resulting in endless, legal class-action. This is further dramatized in the 2003-and-later five-speed auto tranny units. Ostensibly, Honda took an inferior four-speed automatic and simply added another gear to it.

To my current knowledge, Honda contracted out manufacture of the "B7XA" automatic transmission family to a Japanese concern. I regard this as a very serious mistake. Ditto for the failure-prone Delphi alternator used on the 1998-2002 V6 Accords (and various other Honda/Acura models).

{After GM cut them loose, Delphi has been under strict supervision by the Bankruptcy Courts since 2005. How in HELL did Delphi ever get on Honda's approved vendor list? Because damned cost accountants run the world!}

Please note that Honda has opened another facility in Ohio to produce/rebuild THEIR OWN automatic transmissions. I'm hoping their painful lessons have smartened them up.

While I'm griping, let me also point out that the instrument cluster in my '02 Accord is produced by Ford Motor Company. Not to sound like a traitor, but I'd vastly prefer Nippon Denso or Nippon Seiki. Thank You Very Much!

Robert Warden

That's the reason I'd never use an amsoil product, not even for my lawnmower. If I want to use a specialty oil, it'll be Redline. All the racers that use it have proven it's quality.

Not from what I've seen...nobody's perfect

http://forum.mazda6club.com/index.php?showtopic=49718

Please excuse if I miss anything.... having flaky laptop issues.

The Honda automatic "manual" I believe was the first, way back when the Hondamatic 2 speed came out. GM copied Honda by using a 3 shaft gear based automatic in the Saturns.

I think Honda used Delphi for many parts and batteries because it ups the cars domestic content and pretty much all makers go for the low bid.

All Honda automatics from what I recall were all sourced via Japan. The '98 here was built with 75% domestic and 25% Japanese parts, the transmission being the single largest Japanese part. Go figure. I think the weak Honda Z1 is at fault with the issues seen in many Honda auto trans failures, add to that the weak ATF cooling system and it does spell disaster.

The Ford sourced cluster in the Gen 6 has proved to be pretty reliable. Not like the NS units in the Gen 5. Ask anyone with one how many failed speedo heads they've had.

I get Redline products from here: http://www.synlubes.com/

If you put an additional filter in the system, make sure as you said it's going to the "in" side of the cooler. The reason for this, is primarily to keep the cooler from acting as a "filter". When a trans in one of these blows the rad really should be changed, you can never flush out one of these coolers completely.

Also, you're going to want to check for cooler flow from the "out" side of the cooler. I'd like to see at least a half quart in 30 seconds. Keep the stock filter if you have a Gen 7 and change it as well.

The "out" fitting from the cooler goes to the back of the transmission where it dumps fluid at the differential.

On the manual trans side with the notchiness, I've been thinking of trying the GM syncromesh fluid. I've had Redline MTF in my car since around 10k. It helped somewhat, but I've never had the 3rd gear issue.

I have one of the 6 speeds that doesn't like to go into 6th when cold, it just won't go. And it dislikes being put into 2nd or first while rolling to a stop when cold. Otherwise it's fine.

I'm just confused WHICH GM manual trans fluid to use, they have 4 different types.

I have one of the 6 speeds that doesn't like to go into 6th when cold, it just won't go. And it dislikes being put into 2nd or first while rolling to a stop when cold. Otherwise it's fine.

I'm just confused WHICH GM manual trans fluid to use, they have 4 different types.

Funny you mentioned that because my car pulls that same stunt here and there in the REAL cold.. I just thought it was because it was cold..Except mine will go into 6th, just a little more force then norm, but the 2nd and 1st while slowing down cold is something i see pretty often... Thankfully Accords are like the quickest cars ive seen in my life warm up LOL Damn those 3.0L!

Fred,

This is what a bunch of my friends with the TL 6speed have used and said it works ( i have seen it as well) Fricition Modified AC Delco is the same as the GM stuff. I went to the chevy dealer and gave them the 12377916 GM product number and they showed me this bottle. Went to 3 different dea;ers and they all showed me the same stuff AC delco.
http://www.hardtopguy.com/store/product.php?productid=254&cat=0&bestseller=Y

I also have that 1st and 2nd gear issue on my 08 6-6 when its cold to a rolling start.

The Honda automatic "manual" I believe was the first, way back when the Hondamatic 2 speed came out. GM copied Honda by using a 3 shaft gear based automatic in the Saturns.

I think Honda used Delphi for many parts and batteries because it ups the cars domestic content and pretty much all makers go for the low bid.

All Honda automatics from what I recall were all sourced via Japan. The '98 here was built with 75% domestic and 25% Japanese parts, the transmission being the single largest Japanese part. Go figure. I think the weak Honda Z1 is at fault with the issues seen in many Honda auto trans failures, add to that the weak ATF cooling system and it does spell disaster.

FredSVT:

GM is another undisputed king of rip-off and plagiarism. They notoriously use their suppliers to develop new technology, promise a contract to buy from them, then "burn" them after they (GM) copy it to produce it "in-house."

Quick examples given: Windshield-embedded antenna, various power accessories.

Please note that the RPO-code "L66" engine used in the Saturn is actually the venerable J-Series V6...designed/produced by Honda in Ohio. GM unabashedly claims this engine is built for them by a Japanese supplier. Check the window sticker on a so-equipped Saturn Vue for proof.

As a retired Manufacturing Engineer, I have sat in too many committee meetings with the "Finance Guys" breathing down my shirt collar. It's all about "value engineering." Cut out every last hunk of material, even to the extent that it borders on compromising functionality and (worse) safety. You build everything on "least cost" basis, using the "lowest bidder," and you will always end up getting exactly what you pay for!

Rather than include a $10 flame shield around the filler neck/gas tank area of the old Pinto, FoMoCo assigned a dollar value to a "human life" based upon statistical (probability) analysis. You know the rest of the story.

"Local content" laws are an interesting game Detroit plays with the Fed. GM, Ford, and Chrysler assemble many vehicles in Mexico, then ship them to the U.S., classified as an "import," thus escaping significant taxation. Mexico also has no EPA (and other regulatory burdens) and no UAW to contend with.

Circulating ATF through the lower tank of a radiator is simple and cheap. But stacking hot engine coolant on top of hot ATF is not particularly efficient. The most effective cooling systems are not integrated, they are segregated.

And ditto for what you say respective to my '02. Biggest (major) component outsourced is the tranny (from Japan). The rest of the car comes from Ohio.

Robert Warden

*******************************
1986 Accord Hatchback, LX-i, 5-speed manual, Misty Beige Metallic over Red
2002 Accord Coupe LX V6, Satin Silver over Charcoal

FredSVT:

On the man trannies:

You've got just a scarce clearance between the (synchro) rings and gear clusters. A certain amount of heat IS necessary before you can expect a smooth engagement.

You have specific characteristics respective to the "pour point, "shear strength," and "lubricity" with any particular lubricant. While API and GL specs suggest, they do NOT always dictate the final properties and behavior of any particular product, regardless of the manufacturer. Over the long years, I have found some degree of experimentation necessary, although this occasionally led me to some costly mistakes.

Despite my vehement dislike (read, hatred) of GM, on balance, they have actually done some wonderful research in the area of lubricants. Example Given: In their warranty data, they actually found less (older) engine failures where 10W/30 was used. They found a significantly higher failure rate (P(f)) where 10W/40 and higher viscosities were used. The farther you "stretch" viscosity, the more additives are needed. Many of these ingredients are short life. Quite naturally, when they fail, you are screwed.

Race motors, with "loose" clearances tend to rev better. They also require a higher weight, such as 20W-50. Conversely, the tighter the (rod and main) bearing clearances, the thinner the lube required. This is why modern engines, with their tight clearances specify 5W and 0W lubrication.

My 1986 Accord connecting rod bearings "spec" at .0008-to-.0015," with a service limit of .030" This is WHY I use (pure synthetic) Mobil One 10W/30, year round. It's perfect.

Robert Warden

Howdy Again, Fellow Honda Freaks!

Even more, respective to my continuing saga on "B7XA" auto tranny concerns...

On page 14-128 of the (6th-Gen) Accord V6 Service Manual Supplement, it shows a diagram of the ATF cooler and hoses (A and B, respectively.) WHICH side is the "pressure" side and WHICH side is the "return" side? Along with my local "Buds" at Damson Honda, we are all utterly CLUELESS. When I install the CompTech (560-025) tranny cooler kit, I plan to include an inline filter used on the 2003-2009 Honda Element (Honda P/N: 25430-PLR-003). Since said filter has a "polarizing stripe" on one end, I reasonably assume it is a uni-directional (read, one-way) filter. Now, in the case I install the damn filter BACKWARDS, the tranny goes Ka-BOOM! I want the filter on the inlet side of the tranny cooler, to keep the cooler clean. WHERE do I install the filter? And in WHICH DIRECTION???

ANOTHER option I have under consideration is the MagneFine inline filter...which utilizes both a paper element (to trap non-ferrous particulates) and also a washer-shaped magnet (to trap ferrous materials). Either filter, Honda or MagneFine, will run me about $15.00. Just have to figure correct installation.

Worst Case Scenario: Run both hoses into a pan of ATF, start the engine, and OBSERVE the results. One side SUCKS. Conversely, the other side BLOWS. No Calculus required!

Second Worse Case Scenario: I buy the Honda filter, cut it longitudinally with my trusty hacksaw, to SEE what is inside. Expected result: A mesh screen, with a baffle plate, and (likely) a by-pass valve. I have certainly wasted (about) $15.00 on a lot worse experiments!

The replacement (read, rebuilt) auto trannies for the 1998-2002 Accord come with an inline filter. This, as you clearly understand, is to protect the tranny from possible contaminants in the (radiator tank) cooler. Ergo, WHY does the 2003-2009 Element...along with the 2008-up CR-V come equipped with an inline tranny filter....from the factory....DAY ONE? What's the DEAL???

This old "Gear Head" (retired Mechanical Engineer) desires intelligent feedback from the like-minded...

Robert Warden

Hi Robert

I wholeheartedly agree about bean counters cutting into engineering's ability to build a good product. See it all the time.

As for your car's cooler lines. The one going to the rear of the trans, closest to the diff area is the return. It dumps "cooled" fluid onto the ring gear. The output cooler line is always closest to the torque converter/pump area, as it pumps the hottest fluid out (from the converter) to the cooler. Unless of course both lines are right next to each other, gotta love that one.

All Honda autos since 2003 have some kind of filtering system in the cooler circuit, surprise! Someone saw a problem there.
The only problems with this, is one, Honda doesn't ever recommend a change interval. Two, on several models, the filter is inaccessible without dropping the trans out of the car. Three, one has the filter housing INSIDE the bellhousing. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Just to be clear, the friction modified GM fluid to use is GM # 88900399?

FredSVT:

Fred? Oh Fred? Guess what, Buddy? The tranny cooler lines on the old "B7XA" are mounted NEXT to each other, with (metal) line "B" attaching just to the rear of line "A." I am reasonably(?) assuming that line "B" is the RETURN line (feeding the ring gear).

Therefore, in the case I decide to use an inline filter, I THINK I should install it on line "A" so as to filter the fluid BEFORE it enters the tranny cooler.

Respective to filters: Yes, all Honda auto trannys (to my knowledge) have an internal mesh screen. On the "B7XA" tranny, the Honda filter P/N is 25420-P7X-003. And NO, you can't replace it unless you pull the tranny apart! Sorry, NO external pan!

To my current knowledge, the ONLY Honda models ALSO using an external, inline tranny filter are the 2003-2009 Honda Element and the 2007-2009 Honda CR-V. After pouring over the (Helm, Inc.) factory service manuals at my local dealer, I was never able to find a "recommended service interval" for either model respective to filter change. Again, the Honda P/N is: 25430-PLR-003. Said external ATF filter features a "polarizing" stripe on one end and is used on the above-stated Element and CR-V models.

To add insult to injury, the service department told me they have NEVER changed one!

At the moment, I am tilting towards a MagneFine tranny filter...since Honda is leaving me in the dark about their own!

Color me FLUMMOXED!!!

Now...what is the deal with your recommended ATF in the way of GM's #88900399?

Guess I shouldn't bother you with silly questions. I do have access to the API guides.

But what is your EXPERIENCE with it? And WHY do you prefer it? And I'm supposing two to three "flush cycles" within (about) 5,000 miles...to thoroughly purge the torque converter.

Robert Warden

Just to be clear, the friction modified GM fluid to use is GM # 88900399?

I believe so. I will show you pics of the bottle once I do the tranny change. I just got home and will Post a DIY accord v6 6speed tranny change. in that one I will have the pic of the bottle.

Fred,
Ok posted a pic of the bottle to the 8th gen forum. Same numbers

Hi Robert,
Yes, the two rubber lines go to the same place, but as you found out, following where they go tells which line to put the magnefine in. The out line is the one more towards the front of the car.

Every automatic since 2003 that Honda makes does have another filter other than the sump screen in the bottom of case.

The external inline ones are the easy ones to find. If you look up on one of the parts sites, you can find that some have a threaded filter near the left frame rail that one of the cooler lines goes to. Some have a small cartridge type filter that goes into a small housing, either near the left rail OR worse in the bellhousing. The two with the small housings also have cooler lines going into them.

I've noticed that '08 CRVs have them on the subframe directly above the jacking point. The Fit has one buried under the airbox, the Civic has one on top of the trans towards the rear of the car. These are inline filters.

Nearly all Honda parts guys are unaware there is a replaceable filter in the trans, whether it be in the cooler lines (external) or a semi-internal filter. Honda doesn't specify a replacement interval, nor do they even mention its there. These are one of those "lifetime" filters. In the case of an automatic, I'd never let one go for "life". The inline filters do have flow direction arrows on them.

I'd change the filters at a maximum of 60k.

Trying to convince a customer to change one of these filters is another matter entirely. As many are unwilling to pay the price, and on the non-inline filters, labor can get pricey.


Sorry if I confused you with the GM part number, I was asking about the manual trans fluid for 6 speed manuals. I'd like to try it in my car. I was responding to another poster.

API guides for all intents and purposes are useless when looking at oem transmission fluids. And oils for that matter, but that's another discussion entirely.

As long as your car is still in warranty use Z1. Once out, you can use whatever you wish. Caveat emptor. I'd only use as a replacement Redline D4.

FredSVT:

My '02 presently has 81,200 (third-owner) miles. Other than some emission components, it has no remaining warranty coverage. (Not that I am aware of...)

Here is what I have decided to do: A) Install the CompTech (560-025) tranny cooler. B) Install a MagneFine inline filter on the "output" line of the tranny. C) Switch to Red Line D4. My (approximate) cost for all the above: $220.00. (My labor is free.)

Editor's Note: For those of you 6th Gen V6 owners who are so interested, CompTech offers a transmission cooler kit specifically designed for the 1998-2002 Accord V6. Price: $149.95 (plus freight). Custom-tailored for the car, it is a fairly simple "bolt-on" exercise, using ordinary hand tools. See link below:

http://www.autocarparts.com/part/937/3/

For those of you interested in adding an inline transmission filter, you may want to consider the MagneFine. (I believe the appropriate fitting (outside diameter) size is 3/8") See link below:

http://www.emergingent.com/subpage1Magnefine.htm

I will change the tranny fluid and inline filter once per year, regardless of mileage driven. (I presently drive about 5,000 miles, annually.)

Cheap insurance, in my book. Certainly easier and cheaper than changing the tranny!

Speculation as to what (if any) difference in performance the above changes will make?

Robert Warden
********************************
1986 Accord Hatchback LX-i, 5-speed, Misty Beige over Red (215K miles)
2002 Accord Coupe LX V6, Satin Silver over Charcoal (81K miles)

Question. I talked with both the Honda Dealership in my local area, and also I called the American Honda Customer Support. Both told me that there was NO recall, or even a service bulletin on the 2002 Honda Accord V6 models. They said there wasn't a single bulletin on them, on anything, including the transmission of course. I know this can't be true. Is there any kind of information I can take with me to the Dealership and protest to this? This is an outrage! :dunno:

Jujupenderliii:

The information said Honda dealers, along with AHM, gave you is not entirely correct.

On the 2002 Accords, there are known issues involving malfunctioning of the ignition interlock and the passenger's-side airbag sensor. On the V6 Accords, there are known issues involving EGR port clogging. Your Honda dealer can perform simple tests to determine if your car has any of these issues. They SHOULD diagnose for the above issues at NO charge. Furthermore, AHM should correct said issues at NO charge. (An OBD-II test in your car's diagnostical connector (under the left side of the dash) will indicate if your car has any of these issues. You will likely recognize the EGR port clogging issue in the way of poor gas mileage and poor overall engine performance. Warranty coverage for this specific issue MAY be capped at 100,000 miles since it involves the emissions system. With 127K miles on your car, you may be SOL...as in Seriously Outta Luck!)

See link below:

http://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/Accord/2002/index.shtml

Regarding V6 transmission issues: The 1998-2002 V6 Accords use the "B7XA" automatic transmission. Extended warranty coverage applies to both ORIGINAL and REPLACEMENT transmissions in 1998-2001 cars ONLY! Honda Motor Company maintains that all known issues/defects were corrected by (model year) 2002. Therefore, (like myself) you are on your own! The BEST you can ever hope for is a "good will" repair/replacement, strictly at the benevolence of HMC.

You may care to review the long discussion between myself and FredSVT regarding "B7XA" tranny concerns. Although I presently experience no problems, I am adding a tranny cooler, inline filter, and switching to better ATF. An ounce of prevention is always worth more than a pound of cure!

Robert Warden

Question. I talked with both the Honda Dealership in my local area, and also I called the American Honda Customer Support. Both told me that there was NO recall, or even a service bulletin on the 2002 Honda Accord V6 models. They said there wasn't a single bulletin on them, on anything, including the transmission of course. I know this can't be true. Is there any kind of information I can take with me to the Dealership and protest to this? This is an outrage! :dunno:

They are somewhat right about the tranny...there is no recall, no warranty extension. I don't remember there being a TSB either but there could be.

Ah, the ignition switch? Yeah, I have to deal with that everyday. It's not really bad at all, just... Annoying. You have to turn the steering wheel just a tad bit in order for the key to turn. As for the transmission, that's not even fair. I'm experiencing all the problems that the 99 - 01 transmissions are having, to the exact detail. Oh well, at least it's only 2,900 to replace the transmission. I'm sure other transmission's in other car's cost more than that to replace and for labor at the same time!

...only $2900? Is that for a reman from a dealership?

Unfortunatley yes. It is a remanufactured transmission that Stevenson Honda will put in for me. Although, hell. ANYTHING is better than the transmission I got now.

To All:

Known, critical issues on the "B7XA" transmission: Substandard differential carrier bearings and inadequate lubrication to the second-gear clutch pack. HMC claims they corrected said defects by (model year) 2002, but I remain dubious.

I observe continuing transmission failures in BOTH the 2002 V6 and the I-4 Accords, regardless of mileage driven. Two (2) weeks ago, at my local Honda dealer, an '02 (Sedan), equipped with I-4, was on the rack for a tranny replacement. The car had 61K one-owner mileage. Mouth wide open, I stood there, shaking my head, in utter disbelief.

A remanufactured "B7XA" tranny from Honda will cost you about $3,000, parts and labor, if you pay for everything.

You will get approximately the same (but hopefully not worse than the) transmission you have in your car right now. HMC built a new plant (in Ohio) to help them deal with their self-inflicted tranny "Nightmares" on various Honda and Acura models.

If you want to "fly-on-the-cheap," you can always check with your local salvage yards. Bear in mind that you are buying a "pig-in-a-poke." What you SEE is what you GET. And most salvage yards exchange/refund ONLY on a 30-day basis.

You may also want to consider a replacement transmission from Dr. Evil, Inc. They offer a "Street Evil" version of the "B7XA." It is a daily-driver unit with an upgraded torque converter, valve body, and clutches. The cost is $2750, shipped in with a two-year warranty. This is with your core exchange and the shipping included.

YOU must furnish the R&R (removal and replacement) labor for the above Dr. Evil unit.

If so interested, then please contact Ms. Stacy Jones at: (616) 748-5704.

The ignition interlock issue will typically exhibit the following symptom: When placing the transmission selector in "Park," then turning off the engine, the key cannot be removed from the ignition switch. There IS an HMC "campaign" to correct this malfunction for those affected units in the field. Many/most(?) Honda dealers stock a "kit," which is easily installed by a Honda Technician. Again, there is a very simple, quick test for this issue, at a Honda dealership. If necessary, the parts and labor should be furnished at NO charge to the customer.

However, let me point out that there is an inherent (natural) "side-loading" effect upon the steering column componentry in the case you park with the steering wheel in an off-angle position. Acting with spring force, the tires create a "torque effect." This will typically create torsion against the ignition switch, hence forcing you to turn the steering wheel a bit, in order to remove the key. This behavior should be regarded as perfectly normal, under most circumstances, and does NOT, per se, indicate an ignition interlock malfunction.


Robert Warden
BSME

********************************
1986 Accord Hatchback LX-i, 5-speed, Misty Beige over Red (215K miles)
2002 Accord Coupe LX V6, Satin Silver over Charcoal (81K miles)

You will get approximately the same (but hopefully not worse than the) transmission you have in your car right now.

If only Honda would be so kind! A lot of people report their reman trans have clunking noises and weird shifting. That kind of makes sense since these reman's needed some trans to go bad first, and if it went bad to begin with there might be something wrong with the casting or Lord knows what else...that is causing a systematic failure, that isn't a gears/valve body/etc problem.

You may also want to consider a replacement transmission from Dr. Evil, Inc. They offer a "Street Evil" version of the "B7XA." It is a daily-driver unit with an upgraded torque converter, valve body, and clutches. The cost is $2750, shipped in with a two-year warranty. This is with your core exchange and the shipping included.

Isn't one of the problem with these trannies the differential carrier bearings? Seems like a Dr. Evil or L10 tranny would be wasted unless you're a racer with some mods

Hi Robert,

Putting in the cooler and D4, may make it shift somewhat firmer. But, pretty much any fluid that's more viscous than Z1 will do that. Z1 is very thin.

The recall/tsb/extended warranty won't even cover 1998 models, it's 99-01, and even then some aren't covered now.

At 81k, your car is now out of warranty unless you're in California which extends certain emission components.

I sure wouldn't waste a "built" unit that costs more than the stock trans, as the carrier bearings are a big weak link and there's no way to go larger or with ball bearings rather than the tapered rollers that have the issues.

The biggest issue I've seen with the reman units is whining in park and neutral, with some whining in 1st and 2nd from the mainshaft.

The 1998 here has the interlock failure, you can shut the car off and take the key out with it still in gear. It also had the ignition switch fail, but I ended up doing it, as well as the EGR cleanings. The car had the EGR issue long before Honda came out with the bulletin and recall kit. (it had 70k put on it in less than 5 months after purchase in '98)

FredSVT:

Exactly as you say, Honda Z-1 ATF facilitates a "softer" engagement...as in, more clutch slippage. More slippage = more wear = earlier clutch pack failure = shorter tranny life.

I really don't mind an abrupt (read, harsh) engagement, up or down, per what you have with the "paddle-shifted" gearboxes Honda uses in their Indy/Formula race machinery.

This is ONE of the characteristics I'd actually prefer in my transition to Red Line D4.

My (OEM) "B7XA" whines in "Park" and "Neutral." I have no objections. But an ordinary guy in a suit, or a woman clad in skirt, hose, and heels...might be alarmed, and violently disagree with a "Geek" like me. I can suppose they'd rather it act and drive like a Buick.

(Ergo, some things must be "assumed" and accepted. Do you complain about the noise your hair blow dryer makes...or your microwave oven produces?)

The "Street Evil" tranny features Timkin (yeah, unfortunately still) "tapered rollers." But (per what I was told), they are hardened to a higher (SAE 8640) spec, and so, in conjunction with a superior lubricant (nee, Red Line) perhaps the tranny will survive. And the operative term is MAYBE.

Fred, my '02 is OUT of warranty coverage. I fully realize I'm ON MY OWN, from NOW ON!

I am literally left unto my "own devices."

Robert Warden
BSME

********************************
1986 Accord Hatchback LX-i, 5-speed, Misty Beige over Red (215K miles)
2002 Accord Coupe LX V6, Satin Silver over Charcoal (81K miles)

I observe continuing transmission failures in BOTH the 2002 V6 and the I-4 Accords, regardless of mileage driven. Two (2) weeks ago, at my local Honda dealer, an '02 (Sedan), equipped with I-4, was on the rack for a tranny replacement. The car had 61K one-owner mileage. Mouth wide open, I stood there, shaking my head, in utter disbelief.


Yup, it seems to be luck of the draw, and that includes the 02. A friend's 02/I4 died at 39K miles (orig owner), while several other friends/relatives are at >140K miles with original 6thGen AT's. My neighbor's two sons drove the p*ss out of their 99/I4. It's over 150K miles and the trans shifts like new. :dunno: