To All, but primarily directed to FredSVT:

Fred, you've got me rather convinced on a conversion from Honda Z-1 to Red Line D4 ATF (in my '02). The reviews I've seen are favorably impressive, both from people on the street as well as those who use it on the racetrack. I'm getting a lot of positive feedback about Red Line lubricants, thus far.

My "buds" at my local Honda dealer are urging me to stick with Honda Z-1, and change it, say, every 5K to 10K miles. Then again, it is NOT in THEIR best interest to promote some OTHER brand of lubricant, now is it?

What I really hate is being caught in the middle, when the relevant FACTS are unclear to me. Both sides shouting at me, simultaneously claiming they are "correct." That is ILLOGICAL. BOTH sides cannot be correct.

I do NOT again care to be caught up in marketing hyperbole, as I likely did with the purchase/installation of K&N air filters on my Honda CARS. While I believe they were an asset on my Honda motorcycles...all of which were CARBURETED, I am now starting to believe a K&N air filter is a waste of money on, and possibly detrimental to, a modern, fuel-injected engine.

Ergo, I do NOT care to repeat the same mistake swapping transmission fluids.

I must keep my mind OPEN to fresh information, carefully considering ALL sides, before I can make an informed, responsible decision.

What I would like to know is YOUR OWN PERSONAL experiences with Red Line. Bear in mind I am also considering AmsOil. I have used it exclusively in the gearbox of my trusty, old '86 some 15 (fifteen) years now, with superb results.

Robert Warden
BSME (retired)

**********************************
1986 Accord Hatchback, LX-i, 5-speed, Misty Beige Metallic over Silky Red (216K miles)
VIN: 1HGBA5348GA167648
2002 Accord Coupe, LX, V6, Satin Silver over Charcoal (81K miles)
VIN: 1HGCG224X2A011655

My "buds" at my local Honda dealer are urging me to stick with Honda Z-1, and change it, say, every 5K to 10K miles. Then again, it is NOT in THEIR best interest to promote some OTHER brand of lubricant, now is it?

I hope you're providing the labor if you follow the advice of your buds. My dealer charges $85 for one ATF drain/refill, so the "every 5K" interval would get expensive quick.

OEM fluid

Cajun:

My "buds" at the dealer, they often prefer to work through their lunch hour, doing all these "side jobs" for extra CASH. (It's a very BAD recession. Remember?) They line up, say, three to four quick-and-easy tasks, then line their pockets. They can typically do an oil change or an ATF change in 15 minutes, flat. Some of them easily rack up $40 to $50, "on the side," in ONE hour.

Without divulging (shall we say) "priviliged information," I "acquire" three to four quarts of Honda Z-1 ATF for FREE. I can visit my dealer on a Saturday, when they are not very busy in the service department. One of my "buds" does a tranny drain-and-refill, and I hand him a Ten Dollar bill...."on the side." You get the picture.

For an oil change, I purchase a gallon of Mobil One 5W-20 at Wal*Mart (here, it's $25.56 + 8 % tax), an oil filter from my dealer ($5.39 + 8% tax), then slip my "bud" a Twenty Dollar bill for his time and labor. You get the picture.

I now drive about 5,000 miles per year. So, for annual fluid service on my '02, this will cost me approximately $63.43....for everything. I consider this a true BARGAIN.

(Editor's note: Shortly after I purchased my '02, I had a complete brake job done. New sets of OEM Honda pads cost me $94.38. Installation labor (including resurfacing the front rotors) cost me $40.00. I will concede that I provided help; I applied the Molycoat to the brake pads and the shims. But $134.38 is quite reasonable, especially when my brakes work flawlessly, thereafter.)

On occasion, I am known to drop off a "six-pack" to my service advisor and my tech "buds" on a Friday, just before quitting time. Their preferred brand, of course.

(Okay, so I practice a little bit of personal "politics." Hate me as you may, but it works! I pay them CASH, and they pay no taxes. This also saves me a lot of $$$$. I treat them with courtesy, dignity and respect, and they perform excellent work on my car(s). Aside from any legal or moral concerns, this is nevertheless HOW the Real World operates!)

They are not merely Honda technicians; they are my FRIENDS. And oft times, good friends are worth MORE than money. You get the picture.

Robert Warden
BSME (retired)

**********************************
1986 Accord Hatchback, LX-i, 5-speed, Misty Beige Metallic over Silky Red (216K miles)
VIN: 1HGBA5348GA167648
2002 Accord Coupe, LX, V6, Satin Silver over Charcoal (81K miles)
VIN: 1HGCG224X2A011655

Dude, your so lucky! I cant find a local Honda dealership, that doesn't suck...

One Charged me $90 to change the trany fluid, and did not do it.
The other one who was at least nice enough to replace my trany at 100K miles, without trouble, left the front sub frame, battery terminals, and who knows what else loose...
And the closest to me, cut *ALL* the wires, located near the drivers side fuse box, till the aftermarket alarm stop sounding. They said she had to pay for the repair, because it was not a "Honda approved alarm," and it was not there fault, the alarm was sounding? I guess, disconnecting the battery, did not occur to them?
OK. I'm done. I'm off my soap box.

If you plan to change the trany fluid every 5-10K miles, Z1 is probably OK. And FREE, this is a vary good price.
I'm using AMSOIL-ATF. It specifically rated for Honda's.
I drive about 30K a year (before I got laid off). I drained and refilled with the AMSOIL Univ ATF, and repeated, 3 or 4 times within 1k miles. It shifts a little stiffer, I feel the converter lockup, vary slightly more noticeable.

You drive 5K a year (I'd change it once a year), the Z1 is free - If I was you, stick with your friends...

Bruce Hawkins:

I empathize...and sympathize with YOU...deeply. WHY?

I see far too many people, just "regular folks," being taken advantage of by BAD techs, doing BAD work. This is irrespective of whether they work for a dealer or an independent shop.

Not to brag, but I have a "leg up" on the layperson...the average person in the street. With a degree in mechanical engineering and 40+ years of experience with cars and motorcycles, I am rather difficult to deceive....and nobody's fool. I don't know if I am successful because of RESPECT....or FEAR. Perhaps some combination, thereof.

NEVERMIND, Bruce! That should NOT be the case for anyone needing/wanting good quality parts and/or service for their vehicle! Sadly, not every automotive technician chooses to comport themselves in a professional and ethical manner.

The MOST common complaint people typically express, in ANY survey you may care to review, is POOR service to their automobile.

As it is often said, "KNOW your Jewels. Else KNOW your Jeweler."

I have gone well out of my way to build POSITIVE relationships with those who care for my cars. Said relationships are based upon mutual TRUST and RESPECT.

SADLY, what we have built in America is a society and culture that has no "moral compass." It is now based upon SELFISHNESS and pure GREED. Your immediate task is to punch through it, else find a way around it.

Allow me to STRONGLY suggest this: Find you a tech "buddy" whom is both COMPETENT and COMPATIBLE. Doesn't matter if he works for a dealer or an indepedent shop (except, of course, for warranty stuff). And if he does good work on your car? Treat him like a Prince. In both the short and long run, YOU are really helping YOURSELF.

Now in "research mode," collecting information, I am STILL strongly considering using AmsOil ATF. Firmer shift? NO problem. Firmer shift = less clutch slippage = less wear = increased tranny life expectancy.

Robert Warden
BSME (retired)

**********************************
1986 Accord Hatchback, LX-i, 5-speed, Misty Beige Metallic over Silky Red (216K miles)
VIN: 1HGBA5348GA167648
2002 Accord Coupe, LX, V6, Satin Silver over Charcoal (81K miles)
VIN: 1HGCG224X2A011655

Hi Robert,
If you want to change your fluid frequently, use Z1. I've seen some 6th gen transmissions with over 200k (amazing) with changes every 30k. This is an aberration, to be sure, but it's possible.

For the best protection I'd use D4, which I'm told now uses an additive package that's more along the lines of what Honda's Z1 uses.

I did find it made shifts a little firmer, but it never darkened and did make a dying trans last almost 60k before it finally blew it's diff bearings to pieces. I think some of the firmness is from the slightly heavier viscosity that Redline uses for their fluids vs the very thin Z1.

I personally dislike, distrust and don't believe anything about Amsoil. Seen too many bad things to even want to touch the stuff.

FredSVT:

Thank You for your reply, Kind Sir!

YOU are making "pleasant noises" unto my ears...and MIND...about Red Line ATF. However, $39.95 (plus freight) for a gallon of Red Line D4 versus (my cost of) FREE for Honda Z-1? That is kind of a "no-brainer."

Yet, per what you state, the Red Line D4 remains very TEMPTING, to me!

While it may NOT help, I believe the installation of a CompTech tranny cooler won't hurt my car, either. I shall install it this Spring/Summer, when I replace both bumper covers. Their (P/N: 560-025) tranny cooler is a custom-fit kit, for the 1998-2002 Accord V6, necessitating only basic hand tools. (In reality? It's probably a B&M cooler, and CompTech provides all the precise hardware: brackets, fasteners, and hoses cut to exact length. Hopefully, it will make the job painless and brainless, for me!) See link below...

http://www.autocarparts.com/part/937/3/

I will also be utilizing an inline transmission filter, used on the 2003-2009 Honda Element (P/N: 25430-PLR-003). The white "polarizing" stripe references the OUTPUT (return) side. On the Element, Honda filters ATF on the BACKSIDE of the cooler, before the ATF returns to the differential. However, I will (most likely) install said filter on the INLET side of the CompTech tranny cooler.

Ergo, I MIGHT decide to incorporate TWIN, inline tranny filters. You know how us "Inga-Neers" are: Terribly prone to build in 10,000 percent "overkill."

Robert Warden
BSME (retired)

**********************************
1986 Accord Hatchback, LX-i, 5-speed, Misty Beige Metallic over Silky Red (216K miles)
VIN: 1HGBA5348GA167648
2002 Accord Coupe, LX, V6, Satin Silver over Charcoal (81K miles)
VIN: 1HGCG224X2A011655

There's no overkill on a Gen 6 auto trans when it comes to filtering. With the filter, I'd use a magnefine on the output of the trans to the cooler (one going to rad cooler), then put the CRV/Element filter on the return to the trans as a back up.

RW: Well I do most of my own work, now (usually have). But some stuff, I dont. Like replacing a trany, struts, etc. Luckily for the later idem, I have someone good...
Unfortunately, I now have a little more time for this, kuz I got laid off...

FSVT: Your making me worry about my AMSOIL choice...

FredSVT:

I am SERIOUSLY considering installing a MagneFine (inline) tranny filter. I'd change it every year. Hell, it's only about $15.00 (plus freight). CHEAP insurance, in MY book!

http://www.emergingent.com/subpage1Magnefine.htm

IF I am full of CRAPOLA, then please RE-direct me to an "otherwise," Kind Sir!

Fred, I RESPECT YOU, along with your considered thoughts/opinions. YOU are a long-time member of this forum. And, with your working in the trenches almost forever, YOU have a ton of extremely-valuable EXPERIENCE.

Show me a man with dirty hands, and grease under his fingernails? I'll show YOU a MAN who has been WORKING! And LEARNING IMPORTANT THINGS ABOUT REAL LIFE!


Robert Warden
BSME (retired)

**********************************
1986 Accord Hatchback, LX-i, 5-speed, Misty Beige Metallic over Silky Red (216K miles)
VIN: 1HGBA5348GA167648
2002 Accord Coupe, LX, V6, Satin Silver Metallic over Charcoal (81K miles)
VIN: 1HGCG224X2A011655

Registered member with the American Honda Owners' Association

Without divulging (shall we say) "priviliged information," I "acquire" three to four quarts of Honda Z-1 ATF for FREE. I can visit my dealer on a Saturday, when they are not very busy in the service department. One of my "buds" does a tranny drain-and-refill, and I hand him a Ten Dollar bill...."on the side." You get the picture.

I remember reading an interesting thread on DA about a guy who ordered a few things online from a Honda dealer. In addition to his order he received a bunch of other stuff he didn't order. His question was should he keep it or send it back. Some of the members on here responded send it back otherwise its theft plain and simple. I have even more respect for those members than I did previously.

Its one thing to let an an employee do the work on the side but to accept "free" Z-1 is another. I'd feel guilty as heck if my actions got an employee fired esp when I did things to encourage their behavior. I'd feel much better paying for Z-1 at cost. Everyone likes a good deal.

I'd hate to be around you in a lightening storm. :D Ok rant over since I don't enjoy sounding like the moral police.

SatinSilver:

NO offense taken, Sir! You ARE absolutely correct! Furthermore, I am NOT suggesting that anyone engage in illegal and/or immoral conduct!

However, I shall pass along the following information:

My local Honda parts department ordered a cargo net for a customer with a Gen Six Accord Sedan. (I'm not sure of the year model.) The warehouse mistakenly shipped them 19 (nineteen) cargo nets, but billing them for only ONE net. The PD manager contacted the warehouse requesting corrective action. The warehouse told the PD manager, "Forget it. Too much time, effort and paperwork involved. Just keep the extra cargo nets." This is HOW and WHY I got one for my '02 for almost nothing.

How a dealer runs the parts/service department usually determines the quantities of fluids dispensed for a service order. Example given: A tech performing an engine oil change involving 3.2 quarts will be provided 4.0 quarts. Ditto for ATF, etcetera. Over time, the techs tend to accumulate a surplus of various fluids. Result? The techs typically end up using said surplus fluids on their own vehicles. Or "whatever."

Is this an effective and efficient way to operate? Obviously not. Are they losing money? Apparently not. Otherwise, someone in management would put a stop to it.

Any system, involving human beings, is forever FALLIBLE...and this is just HOW the "Real World" operates.

Robert Warden
BSME (retired)

**********************************
1986 Accord Hatchback, LX-i, 5-speed, Misty Beige Metallic over Silky Red (216K miles)
VIN: 1HGBA5348GA167648
2002 Accord Coupe, LX, V6, Satin Silver Metallic over Charcoal (81K miles)
VIN: 1HGCG224X2A011655

Registered member with the American Honda Owners' Association

Robert,

It's great that you are saving cash using these methods, but I would suggest that you don't post about it if you are going to include your full name and VINs (why?). It's quite possible that an employee/manager/owner at the dealership in which you get side jobs is on this forum. It would not take a whole lot of detective work by them to figure out your place of business given your name and VINs. I know you don't want to get your buds canned.

Cajun:

I fully realize that most ANYONE can and may review this forum.

Again, I am NOT suggesting that anyone engage in illegal and/or immoral conduct.

I am a fairly "transparent" person. I don't have anything to "hide." However, I did NOT provide any particulars to you, either. No names, addresses, SSN, or phone numbers. And I never will, either.

And for the record, recent fluid service on my '02 went through my dealer's service lane, at full retail price. I have the sales receipt. But NO, I won't show it to you, either.

Getting my "buds" in trouble? Nah. They know how to take care of themselves. As do I. Trust me.

However, you DO remind me of what Dwight D. Eisenhower once said: "Never miss an opportunity to keep your mouth shut!"

Robert Warden
BSME (retired)

**********************************
1986 Accord Hatchback, LX-i, 5-speed, Misty Beige Metallic over Silky Red (216K miles)
VIN: 1HGBA5348GA167648
2002 Accord Coupe, LX, V6, Satin Silver Metallic over Charcoal (81K miles)
VIN: 1HGCG224X2A011655

Registered member with the American Honda Owners' Association

Good enough. I hope I didn't offend you. I was just providing free advice on being prudent with personal info on the web...but with free advice you of course get what you paid for. :yes:

SatinSilver:

NO offense taken, Sir! You ARE absolutely correct! Furthermore, I am NOT suggesting that anyone engage in illegal and/or immoral conduct!


Thanks for letting me vent a little. I hesitated saying anything but felt better after getting that off my chest. It always nice meeting someone that will listen to others opinions.

I agree with Cajun 100% about getting rid of your vin number in your signature. I remember hearing a story about how thieves were using vin #'s for some illicit purpose. Don't remember exactly how they went about it but the end result wasn't good. People in the area were covering their vins up on the dashboard to prevent this fraud. Car owners that had the vin on all their glass were also targeted. :paranoid:

To All:

Again, you make even MORE fair points! Leaving my VINs out of my signature is probably a sound idea. But given that I've already included my VINs in numerous posts, it also might be MOOT? Ten ZILLION of those who review this forum, with ill-intent in mind, if so interested in either of my cars, have already taken copious notes.

Both of my VINS are already physically concealed, to protect against the insurance fraud schemes you mention. Both cars are fitted with anti-theft equipment (which I won't elaborate about). You can NEVER stop a thief, especially a "Pro." Just inconvenience them a tiny bit. But some protection is always better than none at all. Both of my cars are fully-insured, for maximum coverage, with the lowest deductibles. The inclusion of said anti-theft equipment, along with my age, allows me to enjoy extremely low rates.

I belong to my "Neighborhood Watch" program. We all know each other, and look out for one another. We are ALL armed, including myself. And did I neglect to mention my POLICE OFFICER neighbor...who lives about a half-block away? You get the picture.

I am one of the most "security-minded" persons you will ever meet. I've never had any vandalism/theft problems with any of my vehicles, and pray that I never do. (Knocks on wood.) However, kindly taking your suggestion to heart, you notice what information I omit below.

Robert Warden
BSME (retired)

**********************************
1986 Accord Hatchback, LX-i, 5-speed, Misty Beige Metallic over Silky Red (216K miles)
2002 Accord Coupe, LX, V6, Satin Silver Metallic over Charcoal (81K miles)

Registered member with the American Honda Owners' Association