WJR Auto Report: The Hybrid Backlash

Is there a backlash building against hybrid-electric vehicles? I've often written about their rise in popularity - as well as the problems many have making their posted mileage numbers. Until recently, such complaints hadn't reached the mass media, but a recent review in the New York Times noted that the Lexus RX400h gets barely 21 miles a gallon, little more than what the regular gasoline model gets - at a far lower price. Similar stories are starting to pop up in other mainstream publications. In fact, editors at Wired magazine downgraded the ratings I gave several models, including the RX and the Accord, in a hybrid review story because of low mileage. Sales of these gasoline-electric vehicles continues to grow. Many consumers are still convinced that hybrids are the environment-friendly solution, and there's no question the technology is promising, but so far, few models are living up to that promise. And as more news reports start to challenge the claims made for hybrids, this boom could go bust, much the way the popularity of diesels collapsed back in the 1980s.

this boom could go bust, much the way the popularity of diesels collapsed back in the 1980s.

Now don't go knocking diesels...my 1980 Rabbit diesel only needed 3 head gaskets in the first 70k miles, but it did get 50 mpg, with about the horsepower of a lawnmower. :lmao:

Hybrids still need some work to be viable. I don't think you can buy an Accord hybrid and save money in the long run. It costs $4000 more and then when you add the maintenance costs that will surely come down the road, it really adds up. Perhaps if gas goes to $4.00/gallon it would be worth it.

Hybrids still need some work to be viable. I don't think you can buy an Accord hybrid and save money in the long run. It costs $4000 more and then when you add the maintenance costs that will surely come down the road, it really adds up. Perhaps if gas goes to $4.00/gallon it would be worth it.

Well, actually...

That is part myth/part true. Let's see:

Hybrids can these days be had for about $500 under MSRP. This is a Prius (in interior size very close to the current Accord - and the reason I take Prius and not a Honda Accord hybrid is because IMO a v6 hybrid is a joke). Now that is still not as good as you can do on a non-hybrid car however...

Depending where you live, it might not make sense NOT to buy a hybrid!

Take Colorado for example - you get a $3000 tax REFUND from the state + you get a $2000 deduction (=$500 REFUND) from federal return. That brings the price of the Prius VERY close to one of 2.4 Accord, and you get a nice car with a lot more bells and whistles Accord could dream of. And Colorado is not the only state with incentives.

This is not even taking into the consideration the new Energy Bill that allows up to $3400 REFUND (not deduction) on federal return.

Even without all that, it really depends how much you drive. If you drive 20K a year (many people are), Prius will EASILY make up the difference in price. Don't tell me about hybrids not making EPA estimates, no car does. You can pretty much count on 45-50 MPG/city in a Prius though, I did a LOT of research on it...

So - I am all for hybrids, 4 cylinder. Diesel hybrid would be the way to go though.

People who buy hybrids to save gas have too high expectations, IMO. They feel as if it will make their gas bill close to zero, which definitely isn't true.

Most people I know who buy hybrids though, buy them for HOV lane use.

With emissions standards tightening up I doubt that diesels will become widespread in the US. Mercedes can't sell the diesel E class sedan in five states (which means I can't buy one in NY) because of emissions standards. No matter how much they clean it up, diesels are still dirtier than their gas counterparts. They're popular in Europe because of the increased taxes on gasoline I think.

Hydrogen is a great alternative fuel, but unfortunately the only way we get it currently is by processing hydrocarbons.

Natural gas perhaps? Great fuel, and they even have home refueling stations. I am wondering why more gas stations don't sell it though. I'd love to drive an Accord NGV if possible.

EV's seemed to be a nice concept, but automakers dropped that one like a hot potato. What a shame, it would have been nice to drive to work in a quiet EV.

Well, actually...

That is part myth/part true. Let's see:

Hybrids can these days be had for about $500 under MSRP. This is a Prius (in interior size very close to the current Accord - and the reason I take Prius and not a Honda Accord hybrid is because IMO a v6 hybrid is a joke). Now that is still not as good as you can do on a non-hybrid car however...

Depending where you live, it might not make sense NOT to buy a hybrid!

Take Colorado for example - you get a $3000 tax REFUND from the state + you get a $2000 deduction (=$500 REFUND) from federal return. That brings the price of the Prius VERY close to one of 2.4 Accord, and you get a nice car with a lot more bells and whistles Accord could dream of. And Colorado is not the only state with incentives.

This is not even taking into the consideration the new Energy Bill that allows up to $3400 REFUND (not deduction) on federal return.

Even without all that, it really depends how much you drive. If you drive 20K a year (many people are), Prius will EASILY make up the difference in price. Don't tell me about hybrids not making EPA estimates, no car does. You can pretty much count on 45-50 MPG/city in a Prius though, I did a LOT of research on it...

So - I am all for hybrids, 4 cylinder. Diesel hybrid would be the way to go though.

Diesel ? Diesel is more expensive than premium so I don't see much in the way of saving.

Diesel ? Diesel is more expensive than premium so I don't see much in the way of saving.

But diesel engines will always get much better mileage that a gasoline engine of comparable size/power output. Even more so if they are a diesel/electric hybrid.

IMOL

Diesel ? Diesel is more expensive than premium so I don't see much in the way of saving.

Unless you make (Bio-Diesel) your own, like we do!!! :yes:

My wifes estimates around $0.85 a gal. to make!

Phil

Unless you make (Bio-Diesel) your own, like we do!!! :yes:

My wifes estimates around $0.85 a gal. to make!

Phil


That's amazing... But not so amazing when you think of what the diesel engine was intended for.

Rudolph Diesel designed his engine to be used by farmers by fuel they had grown. It was intended for rural farmers to be self sufficient by producing their own fuel for their own machines. The first diesel was demonstrated using peanut oil. "Diesel fuel" only came later on and was in fact a waste byproduct of petroleum refining.

So in other words, a diesel running on oil is a diesel running the way it was originally intended. It's amazing that only now the diesel engine is going back to its roots. Too cool. :cool:

Speaking of myths and almost being correct...

Colorado may offer a refund, but I don't think many states do (I know AL does not). And a deduction that nets you $300-500? Get real. The taxes on a new car are more than that.

Since you want to talk about Prius, let's... Compared to a Corrolla, to break even on money, gas would have to get up to $10.10 per gallon, or you would have to drive 66,500 per year.

Comparing the Accord to the Hybrid, gas would have to be $9.20 per gallon, or you would have to drive 60,000 miles per year to break even.

Buying a hybrid to save money is akin to having sex to promote the cause of virginity. About all it really does is give some a "warm fuzzy" that they are benefiting the environment, or the tech weenies who want the latest tech.

My neighbor bought a Hybrid, and after a coupla weeks with it, he says he isn't saving much money on gas. He goes about 60 more miles per tank than I do, but he had to pay like $4k more up front than I did.

It's a great concept, but it has a ways to go yet...

http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/105827/article.html?tid=edmunds.h..pressrelease..1.*


Well, actually...

That is part myth/part true. Let's see:

Hybrids can these days be had for about $500 under MSRP. This is a Prius (in interior size very close to the current Accord - and the reason I take Prius and not a Honda Accord hybrid is because IMO a v6 hybrid is a joke). Now that is still not as good as you can do on a non-hybrid car however...

Depending where you live, it might not make sense NOT to buy a hybrid!

Take Colorado for example - you get a $3000 tax REFUND from the state + you get a $2000 deduction (=$500 REFUND) from federal return. That brings the price of the Prius VERY close to one of 2.4 Accord, and you get a nice car with a lot more bells and whistles Accord could dream of. And Colorado is not the only state with incentives.

This is not even taking into the consideration the new Energy Bill that allows up to $3400 REFUND (not deduction) on federal return.

Even without all that, it really depends how much you drive. If you drive 20K a year (many people are), Prius will EASILY make up the difference in price. Don't tell me about hybrids not making EPA estimates, no car does. You can pretty much count on 45-50 MPG/city in a Prius though, I did a LOT of research on it...

So - I am all for hybrids, 4 cylinder. Diesel hybrid would be the way to go though.

Unless you make (Bio-Diesel) your own, like we do!!! :yes:

My wifes estimates around $0.85 a gal. to make!

PhilHow does that work? And how much to buy the machine?

cars like the RX400h and Accord Hybrid are not designed to be ultra efficient gas misers. they are "performance hybrids". the hybrid powertrain offers more power than the gasoline counterparts. people see "hybrid" and they think "super efficient, slow, gas miser that gets 60mpg". this just isnt what the RX400h and Accord Hybrid are about.

yes, they get worse MPG than hybrids such as the Civic Hybrid, Insight, and Prius, but they have much, much more power, and they do get marginally better MPG than the gas-only versions. the same or slightly higher gas mileage, with much better power throughout the rev-range; especially with more torque in the low and mid ranges. dont think of performance hybrids as a gas-saving option (though they can be if driven correctly). performance hybrids should be regarded as a powertrain upgrade...like an I4 to a V6, except this is a V6 to V6-hybrid.

IMO a v6 hybrid is a joke).
Another thread mentioned that Honda selected the V6 rather than I4 for the Accord hybrid b/c shutting down 2 cylinders on the I4 did not leave enough power available. And apparently shutting off cylinders was a flashy must-do marketing thing they could not abandon in favor of simply using all 4 cylinders. Hey, give credit where it's due - - Honda knows marketing.

Perhaps, but how many of them have you seen on the road? I've only seen one so far.

Honda knows marketing.

Perhaps, but how many of them have you seen on the road? I've only seen one so far.
I would not assume that Honda intended to flood the streets with the AH.

I assume they would like to sell as many as they can.

I guess my point is that the effectiveness of marketing is tied to the number of sales. I haven't seen the numbers but there doesn't appear to be a huge number of sales of the Accord hybrid. One thing I think they should do is be more upfront about what kind of maintenance costs are involved with the addition of the batteries, motors, etc. I am sure other companies offering hybrids need to do this as well.

I, like others, feel that the technology is not mature enough and the benefits are not great enough.

I can buy a lot of gas for $4000 or so...................

I assume they would like to sell as many as they can.

I guess my point is that the effectiveness of marketing is tied to the number of sales.
I would argue that your assumption and point are flawed. I design new products for a technology company. Ultimatley, we must show a profit, but we do develop and market products on which we take a loss b/c it compliments other products that make the money. I'm not saying Honda's game plan is like ours, but marketing is multi-dimensional.

How does that work? And how much to buy the machine?

Basically, the initial machine cost around $3k and the ingredients you need to process the used (peanut, french fries, etc.) vegetable oil is ...

1) Sulfuric acid
2) Methanol
3) Lye
4) Water

The boys who designed the machine makes the mixing & purifying timing process pretty fail safe. My wife's partner has already used 4 tanks (VW Golf TDI) of Bio-Diesel (lives in Redding works in the Bay Area - about 256 miles each way)!

My wife bought a 1995 Dodge Ram 2500 Laramie SLT Cummins Turbo Diesel (97k) Truck, Std. Cab / 8' bed last month and the next tank (35 gal. tank) will be Bio-D!

One other partner (machine is @ his house in SJ) in their co-op group gets the used vegetable oil from various Restaurant's (one of them is my wife's real-estate client that owns an Indian Restaurant in Mountain View).

It's one of my wife's pet project and that's pretty much what I know about it. Me, .... I'm just happy putting in Costco fuel in my PZEV Accord EX-L! (10 tank AVG = 27 MPG - 85 City / 15 HW)

Phil

So you have to pay $3k plus supplies to make what looks like a small amount of cheap fuel...

Again, the cost savings would have to be computed over a lifetime.

But I guess if the machine could keep up with 2-4 vehicles' worth of fuel, it might not be so bad to split the cost. Interesting concept!

I think you guys are arguing a moot point. I've been a passenger in a Civic Hybrid and I was impressed, to say the very least. In fact it impressed me so much with its power, economy and REFINEMENT that it made me think twice about getting a hybrid, even bypassing the 5-speed manual that I so dearly loved for the CVT that impressed me so much.

I think for the money, you do get much better gas mileage and you get a nice car at least on the HCH. My friend drives a Hybrid to school 16 miles each way and gets a lifetime average of 48MPG. He has gotten over 50 with 40+PSI in his tires. Me on the other hand, I don't do better than 24ish and VTECaddict tells me it's not just me...that's a lot of gas and money.

So you have to pay $3k plus supplies to make what looks like a small amount of cheap fuel...

Again, the cost savings would have to be computed over a lifetime.

But I guess if the machine could keep up with 2-4 vehicles' worth of fuel, it might not be so bad to split the cost. Interesting concept!

My wife just finished filling in the spreadsheet I designed for her Bio-D project and based on this 'batch of materials' cost (capitol equip investment and labor not included) ... the cost per Bio-D GAL = $0.78

Based on that vs. present SF Bay Area Diesel cost, so far the savings after producing 70 GAL's = $154.71

Last tank: VW Golf TDI example (one of his 4 tanks):
13 Commericial Diesel GALs x $3.07 (as of 8/21/05) = $39.91

13 Bio-D GALs x $0.78 = $10.14

$39.91 - $10.14 = $29.77 Savings - makes our friend communting from Redding happy!

Phil