ok, since the thread was becoming heated, let's see what da'ers have to say about their rental car usage....

be honest! if it helps, think about how you treat a rental car compared to your own car.

crud, i want to add a line that says, hey, i abuse my own car too!! (need a valid response for stiller fan. :lmao; )

Well I am happy to see this thread, I felt like I started a war in the other one. I wanted one questioned answered and it was. haha :thmsup:

It went to and EX-L vs. EX-V6 question to, 2 people saying we should all buy rental cars :dunno:

Well I am happy to see this thread, I felt like I started a war in the other one. I wanted one questioned answered and it was. haha :thmsup:

It went to and EX-L vs. EX-V6 question to, 2 people saying we should all buy rental cars :dunno:


:lmao: don't ya love how threads go waaaay off in other directions sometimes?? :lmao:

:lmao: don't ya love how threads go waaaay off in other directions sometimes?? :lmao:


It went way off yeah, and I did love it, it was very interesting. one thing still remains, I am willing the spend a few thousand more for a new car if I can afford it. :biggrin:

This is anecdotal evidence but we'll see again.

I'm only interested in the facts and if I am wrong I will accept that I am wrong.

BTW, so far the polls so far say I am right... Will be interesting to see how this goes. :lmao:

It went to and EX-L vs. EX-V6 question to, 2 people saying we should all buy rental cars :dunno:

Please don't put words into my mouth.

I never said you or anyone should buy a rental car. That was BuyAccord, not me.

I did say that they are a good deal for a used car. And that, I stand by.

I also kept repeating OVER and OVER that if you want new, buy new. Hell, I bought new and I'm happy with my decision. I have no doubt that new will give you better quality and more control over a car's wear, tear and longevity.

But I never said that you should buy a used car, of any kind.

Man, talk about banging your head against a brick wall. :headbash:

Please don't put words into my mouth.

I never said you or anyone should buy a rental car. That was BuyAccord, not me.


You are right, you didn't say that. I am sorry. It was only BuyAccord. You said...


The other thing is about buying rental cars. Yes they are abused, but they're actually remarkably well maintained. They probably won't be taken care of in the manner that princess, anysia or I1 would take care of them, but they are well taken care of.


They also get rid of rental cars in 2 years or less.

Rentals are OK for the average buyer, IMO. I don't think they're for people like anysia who basically treat their cars with extreme care. But they're OK for people who don't mind a few imperfections in their car and they do save you from the massive "new car" depreciation.

This is anecdotal evidence but we'll see again.

I'm only interested in the facts and if I am wrong I will accept that I am wrong.

BTW, so far the polls so far say I am right... Will be interesting to see how this goes. :lmao:


how does the poll say you're right? it suggest people are harder on rentals than their own personal vehicles....

ps-the only evidence you have suggesting that rentals are better cared for and not abused is all an author's opinion. i want concrete evidence in the other direction just like you want it in mine.

this poll is every bit as valid as the authors you quoted in the other thread.....

I treat and drive my car with great care and I keep the interior uncluttered and clean too, which is how I treat rentals also. I won't park a rental car at the outer end of the parking lot though like I do with mine :)

"it's not mine, so why hold back at all?"

my sentiments exactly. :biggrin:

how does the poll say you're right? it suggest people are harder on rentals than their own personal vehicles....

3 for your side vs 5 for mine at the current time.

I certainly don't think that people care for rentals better than their cars. But I don't think that they're always extremely abused. That's what you didn't get.

There's some abuse, yes, but it's not extreme abuse and it's not everyone.

ps-the only evidence you have suggesting that rentals are better cared for and not abused is all an author's opinion. i want concrete evidence in the other direction just like you want it in mine.

Service records etc from a rental company and independent reports such as carfax (and others) aren't concrete evidence?

this poll is every bit as valid as the authors you quoted in the other thread.....

Because DriveAccord members are certainly perfectly representative of the entire population. Yeah... right. :lmao:

We treat rentals with respect... we don't purposely do anything that would hurt them, we don't eat in them, stain them, abuse them..... most don't have the pep that we're used to.

Many we have rented have NOT been well maintained. Many have had their service interval warnings on before we got them. They generally have had the interior vacuumed, but not cleaned. The windows are usually dirty. They could use a bath. They look like they rinsed them off only!

I'd NEVER buy one.

The rear bumpers usually have luggage rash. The miles are generally city ones. They're rented out before they're broke in, so who knows what the drivers did!

All the rentals for the past 5 years have been Hertz, Avis & Alamo for us.

um, ryan, 6 for mine, 4 for yours. maybe you're reading it wrong. anyone who treats them as good as their own or better is on your side.

anyone who treats them any degree worse than their own car is on my side.

did you forget how to do math???


um, carfax is NOT accurate.

i wouldnt trust service records on a rental vehicle as far as i can throw stevel. and well, i can't throw stevel.

those are NOT concrete evidence. plus that only attempts to prove if they've been maintained. it does not say one thing fro whether or not each of the individual renters of any given car drove it nice and easy or hard and full out.

:lmao:

seriously you'll argue anytime somewone will return the favor, won't ya???

ps~i know a girl who is 150% PERFECT for you, problem si she's already married and she lives in washington, pa.

of course it could be a non-stop argument. i've been known to screw with her and argue opoosite points on any given day because she will argue just to argue. it freaking hilarious.

um, ryan, 6 for mine, 4 for yours. maybe you're reading it wrong. anyone who treats them as good as their own or better is on your side.

anyone who treats them any degree worse than their own car is on my side.

That's purely subjective. Everyone probably treats cars than you or a lot of people on this board! There's quite a lot of wiggle room, hence why this is an unscientific poll. (Gee, I feel as though I'm channeling my statistics prof... )

did you forget how to do math???

Don't go there, you'll probably embarrass yourself.

um, carfax is NOT accurate.

Pretty accurate in proving that the Accords I posted were rentals.

Never said they were 100% accurate, but carfax and other databases can give you a good idea of whether a vehicle has had anything bad in its past. Your independent mechanic (i.e. your four hours time) will also tell you that.

i wouldnt trust service records on a rental vehicle as far as i can throw stevel. and well, i can't throw stevel.

I trust them MORE than the word of mouth of a private seller.

those are NOT concrete evidence. plus that only attempts to prove if they've been maintained. it does not say one thing fro whether or not each of the individual renters of any given car drove it nice and easy or hard and full out.

:lmao:

seriously you'll argue anytime somewone will return the favor, won't ya???


MUCH better evidence than your purely anecdotal evidence.

And as for arguing, hey, I'm game. Throw all you've got. I throw back the facts.

I must admit, that even though you come up empty 99% of the time, you're persistent. Gotta hand that to you.

Many we have rented have NOT been well maintained. Many have had their service interval warnings on before we got them. They generally have had the interior vacuumed, but not cleaned. The windows are usually dirty. They could use a bath. They look like they rinsed them off only!

With all due respect princess, those are by your standards, which are higher than most everyone else's.


I'd NEVER buy one.

Probably me neither, because I have the money to buy new. :D

The rear bumpers usually have luggage rash. The miles are generally city ones. They're rented out before they're broke in, so who knows what the drivers did!

The first two are valid points, but I did say that theyr'e good for people who don't mind a few cosmetic blemishes. And many cars have lots of city miles. It's not solely restricted to rentals.

As for the last part, "who knows what the drivers did" is pure speculation.

Again, it boils down to standards here, and your standards are likely higher than most other peoples'.

That's purely subjective. Everyone probably treats cars than you or a lot of people on this board! There's quite a lot of wiggle room, hence why this is an unscientific poll. (Gee, I feel as though I'm channeling my statistics prof... )



Don't go there, you'll probably embarrass yourself.



Pretty accurate in proving that the Accords I posted were rentals.

Never said they were 100% accurate, but carfax and other databases can give you a good idea of whether a vehicle has had anything bad in its past. Your independent mechanic (i.e. your four hours time) will also tell you that.



I trust them MORE than the word of mouth of a private seller.




MUCH better evidence than your purely anecdotal evidence.

And as for arguing, hey, I'm game. Throw all you've got. I throw back the facts.

I must admit, that even though you come up empty 99% of the time, you're persistent. Gotta hand that to you.


you have facts about 2% of the time. the other 98% you're taking someone else's OPINION and restating as though it si factual evidence. it is NOT.

hey, car fax does not show anywhere near everything. it's is fallible, just like my survey and you're so called "facts".

bite me.

and if you know how ot do math, how in the hell did you add the numbers at the top of the page the way you did?

drugs taking over your life????

and if you know how ot do math, how in the hell did you add the numbers at the top of the page the way you did?

drugs taking over your life????

Ad hominems - the sure sign of a weak argument.

And that's my cue. I'm done.

You won anysia. No one can win an argument with you. Even when they do. :dunno:

So the argument is how most of us treat rentals?

There's not enough catagories!

I treat ALL cars with respect, but "pretty much the same" isn't the same. If it were mine, it wouldn't be driven with service needed lith on. If it were mine it wouldn't be a GM or Ford. If it were mine, it would be cleaner.

My daughter nor her hubby treat them nice (which is why I won't loan one of mine), my 2 buddies close by wouldn't, although one currently drives a Mercedes & treats it well.

Isn't the question more retorical since I've never actually seen a Honda for rent? How would you buy a HOnda that's been rented out?

My mom rented her RV out to make the payments. At 60K that Dodge needed to be completely rebuilt! Renters were really hard on it!! It was maintained, but that can't undo most of the damage done!

I think if used car hunting, you're better off with a private party than either a rental or a dealer. Many owners have the records to hand you. They may or may not be honest, but many things can be seen. Body work, rusty coolant, old oil, leaks..... a dealer doesn't know the history, just that it probably passed their inspection, but you usually get some sort of warranty.

Isn't the question more retorical since I've never actually seen a Honda for rent? How would you buy a HOnda that's been rented out?

Some of the rental companies rented Hondas. I posted them in the other thread in general drive (Accord EX-L) along with their VINs and pricing.

what?? run out of steam exl??

realize your arguments had no stronger of a footing than someone else's opinons? aka, they are no stronger than any of my arguments.

you can quote opinions all you want. it won't make opinions factual.

and i still don't understand why you are trying so darn hard to defend something that you would never personally purchase anyway. that makes next to no sense and is exactly why i think you are arguing just to argue.

oh, and i never did figure out how you know that rentals don't breakdown... some rental companies don't advertise that a rental is a rental right on the bumper of the car. i've even had enterprise cars that didn't state they were enterprise on the exterior anywhere. therefore, when you see a relatively new car broken down by the roadside or on the back of a towtruck (that was NOT injured in an accident) who are you to make the determination if it is privately owned or a rental?? don't think ya can unless you are stopping the tow trucks and asking. :lmao:

ever get the feeling you are like the highschool kid trying to pull together a research paper at the last minute and thus pulling everything and anything that has some key words in it so you think you can fool the teacher into thinking you know what you are writing about and that you have done the research to back it up?

Some of the rental companies rented Hondas. I posted them in the other thread in general drive (Accord EX-L) along with their VINs and pricing.
and that is about the only factual piece of evidence regarding any of this issue that you did manage to find.

although who knows.... it may be completely fictional.

the prices they're selling them at are laughable, that's for sure. not at any sort of discount since they won't even let you haggle.

heck, you did take words of mine right out of context and made them sound like something exactly the opposite even.........

Umm, I've hunted for them for years & never found any when visiting FL, AZ & most recently before we headed to HI.

The companies just laughed at me. :)

If cosmetics were the only difference, then by all means hunt in the rentals. But out of the 2 Summers & 7 rental cars, 2 companies.... 4 of them had service lights going!! Which says to me that either they are being poorly maintained or they are being maintained by a fleet person that doesn't know the car well enough to know how to reset it.

Yeah, pretty much anyone can change the oil. But were the valves adjusted when required? Was the tranny fluid changed? :dunno:

I know someone that ONLY bought used cars that were former rentals. Each one lasted about a year before they needed something done. They weren't Hondas & it could reflect on the driver more than the cars.

The rental companies believe they're abused.
The general public believe they are abused, thus all the jokes about it.

In general a Civic can take more neglect & abuse than most others out there. Which is why I made sure my mom's current car is a Civic, not an Accord!

If I were to make the decision between a rental, a private party, a dealer used car lot, or a new bottom end.... I'd go with a private party. But that's me.

I'm the one our friends & family call when car hunting. I'm not an expert, but they know I'm picky & trust me. I've yet to buy a lemon! Then again, I've only help pick out a couple dozen for others....I lost count of the ones for us & our kids. *knock on wood* (my sister's gonna want me to hunt for her soon)

Umm, I've hunted for them for years & never found any when visiting FL, AZ & most recently before we headed to HI.

The companies just laughed at me. :)

Incidentally some of them were in Florida and some close to you in california.

If cosmetics were the only difference, then by all means hunt in the rentals. But out of the 2 Summers & 7 rental cars, 2 companies.... 4 of them had service lights going!! Which says to me that either they are being poorly maintained or they are being maintained by a fleet person that doesn't know the car well enough to know how to reset it.

I'd be more likely to believe the latter. Also, most rentals are GM and Ford POS cars anyway which would be more likely to have a light go in them than a Honda.

I've rented a few cars in different parts of the world, four times in the US and I've never had problems, except for the flat tire in the volvo, which was probably my fault. Never a breakdown, no check engine light, no messages, nothing.

Then again I've known quite a few people with GM and Ford cars that trip the CEL even when being serviced and driven normally, so I'd say it's more of a quality control issue than anything.

Yeah, pretty much anyone can change the oil. But were the valves adjusted when required? Was the tranny fluid changed? :dunno:

Funny you mention that because most of them are sold off before those things are required (at least in the manual). Honda doesn't require valve adjustment until 100k, tranny fluid change 30k.

My grandfather bought a rental many years ago before he died and when last I called my aunt (who has the car now) it's still going strong. It's an old 1989 Mazda 626, too.

I'm not saying that all rentals are in excellent condition, but I do believe that they unfairly get a bad rap.

Umm, I've hunted for them for years & never found any when visiting FL, AZ & most recently before we headed to HI.

The companies just laughed at me. :)

If cosmetics were the only difference, then by all means hunt in the rentals. But out of the 2 Summers & 7 rental cars, 2 companies.... 4 of them had service lights going!! Which says to me that either they are being poorly maintained or they are being maintained by a fleet person that doesn't know the car well enough to know how to reset it.

Yeah, pretty much anyone can change the oil. But were the valves adjusted when required? Was the tranny fluid changed? :dunno:

I know someone that ONLY bought used cars that were former rentals. Each one lasted about a year before they needed something done. They weren't Hondas & it could reflect on the driver more than the cars.

The rental companies believe they're abused.
The general public believe they are abused, thus all the jokes about it.

In general a Civic can take more neglect & abuse than most others out there. Which is why I made sure my mom's current car is a Civic, not an Accord!

If I were to make the decision between a rental, a private party, a dealer used car lot, or a new bottom end.... I'd go with a private party. But that's me.

I'm the one our friends & family call when car hunting. I'm not an expert, but they know I'm picky & trust me. I've yet to buy a lemon! Then again, I've only help pick out a couple dozen for others....I lost count of the ones for us & our kids. *knock on wood* (my sister's gonna want me to hunt for her soon)


princess~another one to back the buy from a private party is THAT is where you are most likely to get the good deals. they want more than trade in value, but way less than you can expect to pay for the car at a dealership or a rental lot.

case in point-i would gladly sell my coupe for $14k, 25k miles, accident, but maintenance done-never exceeding honda's guidelines. AKA-could VERY well be on a rental car's sale lot. it's been through alot, has high mileage, and an accident, and maintained within honda's guidelines, but not neccessairly as frequent oil changes as most would recommend. catch??? my car is an EX, not the rental lx's and it's still nearly $3 cheaper than those rental lx's. go ahead subtract 1k for the fact that it's a manual. but don't forget it is still an ex. i would tell buyers it has been an accident. i suck at lying. carfax however, will not tell a possible new owner that it has been in an accident. stevel pulled the carfax report for me on it. i could lie in that respect if i wanted to. and so could any rental car agency.

I wonder why the hertz, avis or alamo people lied to me??? :dunno: I ask every time I'm getting reservations! I've BEGGED them to rent Hondas. They keep telling me they don't have any.



From edmunds:


"Those (rental) companies take good care of the cars," Lovejoy said. "And the rental car agencies buy them right to begin with — at net, net, net numbers (invoice price minus the hold back, minus the advertising costs and the like). But for peace of mind, you would probably like to have a third-party inspection because not all rental cars are alike — there are some plums and some peaches."

In an Edmunds.com story, two editors went used car shopping. One of their stops was a rental agency used car lot. They found the prices to be competitive. Furthermore, the vehicles are only one year old, so the balance of the warranty is still in effect.



Of course, they also a all for buying cars with salvaged titles!!


Apparently even they "prefer" the private party:

As a closing note, Shebesta steered prospective buyers back to the old favorite: buying from a private party. When you buy a car, the most important factor is how it has been serviced. Only the previous owner can tell you the car's recent history.

I wonder why the hertz, avis or alamo people lied to me??? :dunno: I ask every time I'm getting reservations! I've BEGGED them to rent Hondas. They keep telling me they don't have any.





same here, which makes me question this somewhat. why is it so secretive that they have them? are they not legit rentals? it raises many questions.

hey are u guys married because you sure sound like it! :D

I wonder why the hertz, avis or alamo people lied to me??? :dunno: I ask every time I'm getting reservations! I've BEGGED them to rent Hondas. They keep telling me they don't have any.


I have a theory - they were probably corporate leases. Either that or they were trying with a few and decided it wasn't worth it to spend the extra money since they get rid of them in a couple of years anyway.

At any rate, the VIN's I put in the other thread did show up as being registered to rental agencies, both in CARFAX and in our databases here (I work at an insurance company). There is no reason for the DMV to lie about their records.

they probably dont have that many. Honda doesnt fleet to rental agencies, or any agencies for that matter. they would have to buy them one by one from Honda (or maybe even a local dealer? i dont know how these things work) so because of that, the total number of Hondas among the entire nationwide fleet of each rental agency is probably less than 1%. while they do exist, its really rare.

Ahhhhh, leases....see, that's apples & oranges! Leases could be worth checking in to. The drivers have the cars long enough to treat them better (as their own).

That may explain why the rental companies never have a Honda for me!!

Of course, they also a all for buying cars with salvaged titles!!


Didn't see that anywhere. They were pointing out problems and saying mostly "buyer beware."

They also warned about title laundering. I know they do a lot of that around here. Register the vehicle in some state like PA where they will wipe off the title and make it clear again then transfer the title to another state like NY or NJ then sell the car.

A "salvage" title isn't always bad news though. Sometimes a car is totalled simply because the cost of repairs approaches or exceeds the book value of the car. I know if I got into a serious accident, I'd want the car totalled because then it would give me an excuse (and the money) to buy a new one. Some states require that cars get salvage titles when they are totalled. Others don't. It varies widely. Also, salvage titles also cover theft recoveries. Sometimes when a car is stolen there isn't that much damage done to it at all but the insurance company may have already settled the claim. As such the theft recovered vehicle is now a salvage title because it was salvaged (from theft).

and from the other perspective, a car without a salvaged title doesn't mean that that car is free from any major damage. my car does not have a salvaged title, yet it has some pretty significant accident damage. that street goes both ways.

they probably dont have that many. Honda doesnt fleet to rental agencies, or any agencies for that matter. they would have to buy them one by one from Honda (or maybe even a local dealer? i dont know how these things work) so because of that, the total number of Hondas among the entire nationwide fleet of each rental agency is probably less than 1%. while they do exist, its really rare.


THANK YOU FOR BRINGING UP THE ONE POINT I FORGOT TO MENTION!!! :notworthy

I didn't copy the section on salvaged titles.... they thought it was a good idea.

We bought a salvaged Civic for kid #1.... like to never have got that thing insured!! Here, we paid more, in AZ they just wouldn't do it. Then she did find a place that would for DOUBLE a non-salvaged of the same would be!! She had no choice, she had to pay it.

I didn't copy the section on salvaged titles.... they thought it was a good idea.

Not sure where you see that, but I don't.

I don't think that a salvaged car is a good idea either, but I don't see edmund's saying it's a good idea... Only for theft recoveries, but not generally for salvages.

Both Lovejoy and Shebesta advised extreme caution when considering the purchase of a car with a salvage title.

Opps....I misread it....maybe it's time for more drugs..... :lmao:

here's the whole section on that:

Salvage Title Cars

Mention to a prospective buyer that the car has a salvage title, and they run in terror. Still, others have owned these cars and driven them for years. What is a salvage title and can these cars ever be a smart buy?

When a car has been severely damaged (either in an accident, or because of a flood or theft) the insurance company estimates how much it will cost to fix. At some point, the cost of repairs is more than the car is worth. Therefore, the car is often sold to a salvage company and used for parts. To protect future buyers, the car is given a salvage title.

In some cases, the salvage company, or an enterprising body shop, might fix up the car and try to sell it. Naturally, the price of the car will be below similar models' because it has a salvage title. The danger is that the car was improperly repaired. The biggest problem is with the alignment of the wheels — if the frame has been bent, it is difficult and expensive to straighten. A bent frame will cause abnormal tire wear and improper handling characteristics.

"Some states require (totaled) vehicles to be branded as salvage cars," Lovejoy said. "But if it is sold in another state, and re-titled, it can be sold to Mrs. Jones as a straight-up used car. She doesn't know it has been cut together from pieces of different cars."

Both Lovejoy and Shebesta advised extreme caution when considering the purchase of a car with a salvage title.

"I know of some cars that have gone through body shops and been made into drivable cars," Lovejoy said. "But keep in mind that if you buy a salvage title car, the chances of selling it to someone else and recouping your money are very slim. If you buy a salvage title car, you might want to count on keeping it until the wheels fall off."

John Mallette, from Face Lift Inc., also advised buyers to be cautious. However, he added, "sometimes it works when you're dealing with a theft recovery where there was little damage. You might save $3,000, $4,000, $5,000. But you will lose that right off the top when you go to sell it."

The kind of company leases would be called program cars:

Program Cars

Program cars have been owned by the manufacturer and given to employees for a short time to use for company business. The idea is to have a Ford employee, for example, drive a late-model Ford to advertise the company's product. These cars are maintained by the factory and usually sent to auction before the odometer turns 10,000 miles. The cars are sold to Ford dealers at closed auctions and then put up for sale on the car lot advertised as "program cars."


So I guess we have rentals, leases & program cars... none of which are owned by the driver....technically... :dunno:

Maybe I should get a job at AHM so I can get in on these "Program Cars". :naughty:

A "salvage" title isn't always bad news though. Sometimes a car is totalled simply because the cost of repairs approaches or exceeds the book value of the car. I know if I got into a serious accident, I'd want the car totalled because then it would give me an excuse (and the money) to buy a new one. Some states require that cars get salvage titles when they are totalled. Others don't. It varies widely. Also, salvage titles also cover theft recoveries. Sometimes when a car is stolen there isn't that much damage done to it at all but the insurance company may have already settled the claim. As such the theft recovered vehicle is now a salvage title because it was salvaged (from theft).

Would you buy a car with a salvage title? Or a rental car? If not, could you please stop defending it? You argue that DA'ers are not representative of the entire population, thus this poll is a fluke. Then you say rentals are okay for the average person, which we are not. Then why do you keep telling us it's okay to buy rentals and salvages?

Yeah if my car got into a big accident I'd sure as hell want it to be totalled. But I sure as hell wouldn't want to buy one that was totalled. That's the whole point of a salvage title - it shows you when a car's integrity may have been compromised, it gives the possibility that it wasn't repaired properly, etc. You can always tell when a car is salvage if you look hard enough. I saw a perfect Mustang Cobra convertible, 390HP, immaculate condition. If you pulled away the trunk lining, you saw all the welds where they replaced the quarter panels.

I don't accept theft recovery cars for a reason. What if I go thru the Canadian border and a dog finds 10 lbs of marijuana hidden in the car? It is just like a flood recovery car - once stuff has been messed with it'll never be the same. You can replace everything you want, it doesn't change the fact that thieves don't take the time to cover their screwdrivers in cloth when prying out dashes and radios.

Would you buy a car with a salvage title? Or a rental car?

Two different things.

If not, could you please stop defending it? You argue that DA'ers are not representative of the entire population, thus this poll is a fluke.

Anysia's poll, not mine.

Then you say rentals are okay for the average person, which we are not. Then why do you keep telling us it's okay to buy rentals and salvages?

That's not what I said. I said that rentals may be a good buy for the average person, and some salvages aren't that bad at all.

Yeah if my car got into a big accident I'd sure as hell want it to be totalled. But I sure as hell wouldn't want to buy one that was totalled. That's the whole point of a salvage title - it shows you when a car's integrity may have been compromised, it gives the possibility that it wasn't repaired properly, etc. You can always tell when a car is salvage if you look hard enough. I saw a perfect Mustang Cobra convertible, 390HP, immaculate condition. If you pulled away the trunk lining, you saw all the welds where they replaced the quarter panels.

Trust me, I KNOW the difference between good and bad repairs. My dad taught shop for many years and we had our own workshop at home, he showed me when he repaired his cars, and he taught me many, many things.

Anyway, with used cars, that there are peaches and there are lemons. But no one buys a used car without looking, be it any type of used car. If you do so, you are a fool, and you deserve to be taken.

But I am not saying buy a used car without first looking at it. Not at all.

I never said that a salvage title is a good buy. Strictly in terms of resale value, you lose quite a lot. However, they're not all bad, and I did say that in a few cases you can get a great car for very little money. But I did say buyer beware.


I don't accept theft recovery cars for a reason. What if I go thru the Canadian border and a dog finds 10 lbs of marijuana hidden in the car? It is just like a flood recovery car - once stuff has been messed with it'll never be the same. You can replace everything you want, it doesn't change the fact that thieves don't take the time to cover their screwdrivers in cloth when prying out dashes and radios.


As I've said already, I'm done. You guys apparently have your own opinions and I'm not forcing you guys to do anything.

The biggest thing for you as an inexperienced car buyer (and an inexperienced person in general) seems to be the "ick" factor of a used car. That's fine, if you don't like used, no one is forcing you to buy used. But that doesn't take away from the fact that some used cars may be great bargains for quite a lot of people.

Furthermore, your post is full of endless personal attacks, "what if" and "suppose that" strawmans that really are nothing more than just empty assumptions.

And once again, you are putting words in my mouth, taking one statement out of context and running 100 miles with it.

I've said what I had to say, now take it or leave it. Either is fine with me.

You put words in my mouth too. You talk about buying rental cars with 30K miles on them. Then you say

The biggest thing for you as an inexperienced car buyer (and an inexperienced person in general) seems to be the "ick" factor of a used car.

You probably forgot I bought my car with almost 109K miles on it. Our last Accord was bought with 120K on it. Our Camry, 98K. Our 300E, 108K. My dad's first car was a used Fiat that he bought for $600 and sold for $900 3 years later. Nobody said buying used cars is bad - you said that yourself. In fact, used cars are quite good - my dad has only owned 2 new cars in his life, an 82 Accord and our 2000 ML. I said buying rentals and salvage is bad.

You still never answered my question on buying salvage/rentals. Nor did I say it was your poll, I just said you're saying it's a fluke. And sure salvage cars sometimes are a good buy for the money. Then can you "prove" to me that the structural integrity is intact? We all know how paper clips react to bending- bend it and straight it enough, and it softens and breaks. Metal is cars is supposed to be different?

If I were the only person ever to sit in the car, I'd happily buy a well repaired salvage. But I do have friends and family in there quite often. Although I don't really care that much if the car's gonna hold up in a crash if it's just me in the car, I can't take that risk when there are other people in the car. No salvage for me.

You put words in my mouth too. You talk about buying rental cars with 30K miles on them. Then you say



You probably forgot I bought my car with almost 109K miles on it. Our last Accord was bought with 120K on it. Our Camry, 98K. Our 300E, 108K. Nobody said buying used cars is bad - you said that yourself. I said buying rentals and salvage is bad.

You still never answered my question on buying salvage/rentals. Nor did I say it was your poll, I just said you're saying it's a fluke. And sure salvage cars sometimes are a good buy for the money. Then can you "prove" to me that the structural integrity is intact? We all know how paper clips react to bending- bend it and straight it enough, and it softens and breaks. Metal is cars is supposed to be different?


One question Benji - if buying 1-2 year old rentals is bad, why is buying high mileage used cars from private sellers any better?

I still stand by the statement that as an inexperienced buyer, the "ick" factor in a used rental plays a HUGE factor in your decision. I know it did for me when I was in your shoes.

One question Benji - if buying 1-2 year old rentals is bad, why is buying high mileage used cars from private sellers any better?

Because in a rental, I know they were not maintained up to my standard. Whereas in a private car, you can tell. I went to look at a 95 Avalon. I know this guy took meticulous care of the car, the paint was in top condition, no scratch/ding, headlights were not faded (very clear and beautiful), tires were good, not one stain on the interior, not a scratch anywhere on the dash, all electronic accessories worked, he used Mobil 1, engine ran smooth and was clean, no shifting problems, no rattles, etc even after 110K miles, not to mention the guy worked for Toyota and he also had 2 others cars in the garage I saw that were just as immaculate. Sure the guy probably washed the car before we came to look at it. But would they specially prep 2 of their other cars for you to glimpse at? I doubt it...leads me to believe it wasn't setup or intentionally planned like that. You can't tell all this by looking at a 30K old rental car - if they're falling apart you know they're trash, and if they're not, they certainly have plenty of time to do so. By 100K miles...ya figure if the thing is still bolted together real nice, it's probably gonna continue doing well if you keep up the maintenance.

Because in a rental, I know they were not maintained up to my standard. Whereas in a private car, you can tell.

This is true across the board. Privately owned cars are not "special" because they were owned by an individual.


I went to look at a 95 Avalon. I know this guy took meticulous care of the car, the paint was in top condition, no scratch/ding, headlights were not faded (very clear and beautiful), tires were good, not one stain on the interior, not a scratch anywhere on the dash, all electronic accessories worked, he used Mobil 1, engine ran smooth and was clean, no shifting problems, no rattles, etc even after 110K miles, not to mention the guy worked for Toyota and he also had 2 others cars in the garage I saw that were just as immaculate.

ROFL. MOST used cars from private sellers are NOT in that condition. I've seen them here, and I'm sure you've seen them there. One owner of a used car that was trying to sell to me tried to tell me that I can easily fix a big crack in the windshield by getting it filled at an auto glass shop. A fleet owner would just replace it at THEIR cost BEFORE you buy it or mark down the price. I've seen this happen personally quite a few times.

I've had people tell me they disconnected the odometer when moving (driving) their cars cross country. Other people take their cars to unscrupulous shops who repair their cars improperly then give it back to them.

Not everyone is like DriveAccord members. Not everyone babies their car. Most people don't know about their cars and they trust repair shops 100%. Years ago there was a story on 20/20 about scam artists and car repairs. You'd be shocked at some of the things they do - repaint old parts as new, sell used parts as new. Say they changed parts when they didn't. Sell cheap taiwanese knock offs as genuine parts.

Why do they do this? They can get away with this on privately owned cars. People don't fight.

Companies have legal departments and MONEY. They can fight these scam artists or do their own maintenance so people are less likely to dupe them into paying money for maintenance and repairs that never happened.


Sure the guy probably washed the car before we came to look at it. But would they specially prep 2 of their other cars for you to glimpse at? I doubt it...leads me to believe it wasn't setup or intentionally planned like that.

I think it's great that there are people like that, but at least around here, people really don't care. They buy, use, then sell to the first available sucker to take it. People by themselves really don't have anything to lose if they sell a lemon to someone. A big corporation has far more to lose if they do.

You can't tell all this by looking at a 30K old rental car - if they're falling apart you know they're trash, and if they're not, they certainly have plenty of time to do so.

Again, pure speculation.


By 100K miles...ya figure if the thing is still bolted together real nice, it's probably gonna continue doing well if you keep up the maintenance.

Can happen with any car.

This is true across the board. Privately owned cars are not "special" because they were owned by an individual.

You're right that not all private cars are special. That's why I said "you can tell" and not "they're better." I can look for a good private car because I can pick and choose. Rental cars are all the same - maintained not up to my spec, like I said :thmsup:

You're right that not all private cars are special. That's why I said "you can tell" and not "they're better." I can look for a good private car because I can pick and choose. Rental cars are all the same - maintained not up to my spec, like I said :thmsup:


Who says you can't pick and choose? Are they handing you a car in a box off a shelf???

You can tell whether or not a rental car is mechanically sound too. Just get it inspected before you buy. Many private sellers won't allow you to do that.

I'm actually cautious of cars that look good on the outside because many times that's just a cover for serious problems hiding underneath the hood.

As for the polls - Anysia is only very slightly ahead if I give her the benefit of the doubt.

If you consider the margin of error it's just about even.

'tis the best you can do with an unscientific poll, I guess. :dunno:

Who says you can't pick and choose? Are they handing you a car in a box off a shelf???

You can tell whether or not a rental car is mechanically sound too. Just get it inspected before you buy. Many private sellers won't allow you to do that.

I'm actually cautious of cars that look good on the outside because many times that's just a cover for serious problems hiding underneath the hood.

Sure, you can pick and choose. But you still ignore the fact that no rental car will be maintained up to many of our specs here on DA.

I don't need to be cautious of cars that look good on the outside, because it doesn't matter. I look at the maintenance records, who's driving it, what the car was used for, look at the undercarriage, and I will have it inspected by a mechanic (though I can do leakdown and such by myself, have access to the equipment). I'd rather buy an Accord that's a little beat up with a few dents and parking scars from a 70 year old grandpa who kept only some of the maintenance records instead of a beautiful black Evo VIII with JDM parts and all records from a 19 year old. Not that they can't take care of cars, but I'm not stupid. I'm young, I can't resist redlining once in a while, punching on the throttle. Chances are the car wasn't broken in properly, driven hard and abused, and put away wet...but got all their maintenance done (hey sounds a bit like a rental car...)

Sure, you can pick and choose. But you still ignore the fact that no rental car will be maintained up to many of our specs here on DA.

I'm ignoring nothing. The specs of those here on DA are really high, in many cases.

At any rate, you can't prove that maintenance wasn't done, because they do show you the maintenance records when you go to purchase a car from them.

I don't need to be cautious of cars that look good on the outside, because it doesn't matter.

Direct contradiction to your own self:

went to look at a 95 Avalon. I know this guy took meticulous care of the car, the paint was in top condition, no scratch/ding, headlights were not faded (very clear and beautiful), tires were good, not one stain on the interior, not a scratch anywhere on the dash,

I look at the maintenance records,

Available from rental/fleet owners, not always available for private sellers.

More likely to be forged by a private owner. Less likely to be forged by a large corporation or franchisee.

who's driving it,

So I take it you only buy cars from people you know very well... Because frankly I trust no one. You can never tell what someone has done to a car by their personality.

what the car was used for, look at the undercarriage, and I will have it inspected by a mechanic (though I can do leakdown and such by myself, have access to the equipment).

But you have access to a mechanic and can do all of that to a used rental. I don't know how many times I have to say that before it sinks in...

I'd rather buy an Accord that's a little beat up with a few dents and parking scars from a 70 year old grandpa who kept only some of the maintenance records instead of a beautiful black Evo VIII with JDM parts and all records from a 19 year old. Not that they can't take care of cars, but I'm not stupid.

I would never buy a used car from a ricer, but most rental companies don't rice their cars!

Oh, and in many states renters don't rent to anyone under 25, at least without charging them more anyway.

I'm young, I can't resist redlining once in a while, punching on the throttle. Chances are the car wasn't broken in properly, driven hard and abused, and put away wet...but got all their maintenance done (hey sounds a bit like a rental car...)


There's a lot of controversy about what proper "breaking in" is anyway, and this isn't the 1980's so there isn't that much going wrong at break in.

What I do know about rental cars here is that they are parked in covered garages versus parked on the street or open driveways... If that makes much of a difference anyway (it may, for rust and faded paint).

And as for abuse, well the poll is almost even, even if I give anysia the benefit of the doubt.

All of these strawmans are making me huff and puff... :lmao:

I didn't say the maintenance was never done...I guess you're just not reading correctly. I said the maintenance was not done to my spec :D

I did not contradict myself. You took it out of context and took out all the maintenance stuff I said about the Avalon: Mobil 1 Syn, no shifting problems, his 2 other meticulously maintained cars, and the guy worked for Toyota, etc. I did not even mention he knew where everything was on the car, and came up with self-kept records everytime they DIY'ed - just like I do.

I don't buy cars from people I know very well. In fact, just the opposite. I will never deal with people I know well because it leads to problems down the road. So I bought a car from my best friend and the next day the engine blew up and the next week we were lifelong enemies...that's the kind of stuff the stupid general population does. It's just common sense and probability that says a 70 year old grandpa with a cane isn't going to drive a car as hard as a say...me. You're not going to try and argue that - you're just going to make a fool of yourself.

I never said I couldn't inspect rentals. I'm just pointing out that you can ALWAYS do it with a privately owned car - unlike what you said. Now you're putting words in my mouth.

I know what the proper way to break in a car is. It is the way that I use, because it's my car :thumbsup: And uh...I don't know about where you are, but we have several huge rental car agencies that hold their cars all outdoors. Not that it matters. They aren't washed properly anyway...by the time it got into my hands, most of the clearcoat would probably already be damaged and worthless.

I didn't say the maintenance was never done...I guess you're just not reading correctly. I said the maintenance was not done to my spec :D

And I said your spec is high, almost to the point of overdoing it.

I did not contradict myself. You took it out of context and took out all the maintenance stuff I said about the Avalon: Mobil 1 Syn, no shifting problems, his 2 other meticulously maintained cars, and the guy worked for Toyota, etc. I did not even mention he knew where everything was on the car, and came up with self-kept records everytime they DIY'ed - just like I do.

That is exceptional. Unfortunately it does not represent the average private owner.

It's just common sense and probability that says a 70 year old grandpa with a cane isn't going to drive a car as hard as a say...me. You're not going to try and argue that - you're just going to make a fool of yourself.

I'm not arguing that a 70 year old grandpa drives hard. However, a 70 year old grandpa will probably forget oil changes or basic maintenance. He may let his 16 year old grandson use the car to go out with his friends, or carry it to unscrupulous people for service.

The real point here is that you can never really tell how well a car was taken care of by looking at people. That is absurd.

I never said I couldn't inspect rentals. I'm just pointing out that you can ALWAYS do it with a privately owned car.

Not always. I've dealt with uncooperative private owners who had something to hide. At that point I walked away and told them good day. Rental agencies have nothing to hide, and they have a published corporate policy that they have to abide by.

I know what the proper way to break in a car is. It is the way that I use, because it's my car :thumbsup:

Break in may have been more important in the 1980s. Now, cars are built to very close tolerances, so little break-in is needed. The most important thing is RPMs and with autos (99% of rentals are autos) that's not a problem since they'll shift and the revs will be relatively low.

And uh...I don't know about where you are, but we have several huge rental car agencies that hold their cars all outdoors. Not that it matters. They aren't washed properly anyway...by the time it got into my hands, most of the clearcoat would probably already be damaged and worthless.

Like I said, I'm not worried about external appearance. That's to be expected. Many people don't care about that really.

Around here people park their cars in open driveways, on the street, in open lots. Some rental agencies do that too but many (esp. in Manhattan) park in garages. It's a regional thing, I know, but it's no big deal.

I'm not arguing that a 70 year old grandpa drives hard. However, a 70 year old grandpa will probably forget oil changes or basic maintenance. He may let his 16 year old grandson use the car to go out with his friends, or carry it to unscrupulous people for service.

The real point here is that you can never really tell how well a car was taken care of by looking at people. That is absurd.

Break in may have been more important in the 1980s. Now, cars are built to very close tolerances, so little break-in is needed. The most important thing is RPMs and with autos (99% of rentals are autos) that's not a problem since they'll shift and the revs will be relatively low.

Sure, but a 70 year old grandpa had 3000 mile oil changes as the norm in his lifetime. How much you wanna bet that even if he did forget one, even 2...it'd still be less than the 10K change interval on the Accord? :) Kids these days have their own cars - they wouldn't touch grandpa's Oldsmobile with a 10 foot stick.

Besides, I didn't say you could tell how the car was taken care of by the age of the owner. That's what maintenance records are for. I said that a 70 year old grandpa with a cane probably doesn't drive half as hard as I do.

(I'm sure Princess will have lots to say about those two paragraphs)

On the contrary, with tolerances tighter than ever, break-in is just as important today as it was years ago. Motor Trend even said Mercedes engines these days sometimes take more than 10K miles to break in, and many Mercedes owners (including myself having often driven my dad's ML320) agree. If it wasn't important, Honda wouldn't bother to put some special break-in oil into the car. If it wasn't important, Porsche and other high end manufacturers would not bother to break in their engines from the factory - you know, those cars that have the TIGHTEST tolerances?

Another thing is that you say autos are more likely to shift at lower RPM's - I don't think so. Coming from a JDM SiR I'd think that you would know better. I ALWAYS have lower RPM's in a stick than in an auto. Sure, call it lugging the engine, whatever. Fact is, autos are NOT good for the engine. They are tuned to shift higher when the engine temp is low, helping to fire the cat and reduce emissions. That is something they have to do to comply with the emissions standards. I don't have to do jack shit to comply with emissions, so I shift ~1000RPM earlier than any of my autos do when they are cold, which is when it matters most. The ML320 will not even consider shifting when it's cold until it's at 2500+RPM (that's under LIGHT throttle), or until I make it by using TouchShift. I can do my entire morning commute under 2K (to be fair it's only 3 miles).

I wish I could argue with you more, but I have homework :)

Sure, but a 70 year old grandpa had 3000 mile oil changes as the norm in his lifetime. How much you wanna bet that even if he did forget one, even 2...it'd still be less than the 10K change interval on the Accord? :) Kids these days have their own cars - they wouldn't touch grandpa's Oldsmobile with a 10 foot stick.

Not so fast, I drove my grandpa's car. I know, different country, different culture etc... but many kids drive their grandparents cars.

Besides, I didn't say you could tell how the car was taken care of by the age of the owner. That's what maintenance records are for. I said that a 70 year old grandpa with a cane probably doesn't drive half as hard as I do.

Well duh, I've been trying to tell you that maintenance records are what's important, and that fleet owners keep them. But so far all of this has been ignored.. :dunno:

On the contrary, with tolerances tighter than ever, break-in is just as important today as it was years ago. Motor Trend even said Mercedes engines these days sometimes take more than 10K miles to break in, and many Mercedes owners (including myself having often driven my dad's ML320) agree.

ROFL. Show me an average mercedes owner who waits 10k miles to gun his new mercedes V8. I have a bridge just west of here I can get you a good deal on.

If it wasn't important, Honda wouldn't bother to put some special break-in oil into the car. If it wasn't important, Porsche and other high end manufacturers would not bother to break in their engines from the factory - you know, those cars that have the TIGHTEST tolerances?

Frankly, break in is a controversial topic. Some people say take it easy, others say beat the crap out of it. It's a controversial topic. Like I said, this is not the 1980s. We have big expensive computers and robots manufacturing car parts, not people. Tolerances are a LOT tighter and cars need LESS break in, not more.

At any rate, your mechanic can tell you

Another thing is that you say autos are more likely to shift at lower RPM's - I don't think so. Coming from a JDM SiR I'd think that you would know better. I ALWAYS have lower RPM's in a stick than in an auto. Sure, call it lugging the engine, whatever. Fact is, autos are NOT good for the engine. They are tuned to shift higher when the engine temp is low, helping to fire the cat and reduce emissions. That is something they have to do to comply with the emissions standards. I don't have to do jack shit to comply with emissions, so I shift ~1000RPM earlier than any of my autos do when they are cold, which is when it matters most. The ML320 will not even consider shifting when it's cold until it's at 2500+RPM (that's under LIGHT throttle), or until I make it by using TouchShift. I can do my entire morning commute under 2K (to be fair it's only 3 miles).

My 5AT Accord will disagree with you. Compare it to an equivalent 5MT Accord and the revs on manual are much higher. At 70MPH I barely cross 2k. My car will shift upwards quickly at low RPMs. Sometimes in city traffic I can already feel it in third! I often have to use D3 in order to keep it out of fourth in stop and go. Honda keeps the revs low for better FE. That's one of the reasons why highway EPA MPG is the same for MT and AT.

On most of my highway trips I am doing 65 and I'm barely above 2k.

A mercedes gas guzzler is a different beast. It is tuned for performance and low end torque, not fuel economy. It is not a Honda, sorry.

this is why people continue to buy pos cars in general, because dumbasses build them up and tell them, yeah, sure, this car is terrific!!! you may have to spend your life at the garage getting things repaired, but no need to worry because you have a lifetime full warranty!!!

some people should be kicked in the butt, but then again, i'll just let their dumb choices speak for themselves.

:rolleyes:

If it wasn't important, Porsche and other high end manufacturers would not bother to break in their engines from the factory - you know, those cars that have the TIGHTEST tolerances?


I'm not sure what exactly what Porsche does at the factory, but the manual of a modern Porsche tells you not to go over 4000rpm for the first 2000 miles. Boy, is that hard to stick to :)

IMOL

Well duh, I've been trying to tell you that maintenance records are what's important, and that fleet owners keep them. But so far all of this has been ignored.. :dunno:

ROFL. Show me an average mercedes owner who waits 10k miles to gun his new mercedes V8. I have a bridge just west of here I can get you a good deal on.

My 5AT Accord will disagree with you. Compare it to an equivalent 5MT Accord and the revs on manual are much higher. At 70MPH I barely cross 2k. My car will shift upwards quickly at low RPMs. Sometimes in city traffic I can already feel it in third! I often have to use D3 in order to keep it out of fourth in stop and go. Honda keeps the revs low for better FE. That's one of the reasons why highway EPA MPG is the same for MT and AT.

On most of my highway trips I am doing 65 and I'm barely above 2k.

I didn't ignore the maintenance records from fleet owners. I know they keep them - I just know they don't have enough records to keep me satisfied, because they don't do enough maintenance...so unless they fake their records... :dunno: I don't get what's so hard to understand about that.

I never said "average Mercedes owner." I read this from forums and from talking to people - if people are passionate enough to give a care about break-in and go onto forums for info, I'd call them above average. I'm also pretty sure your average Mercedes V8 owner will not be redlining. If they all did, then you just threw your rental car theory and how people treat them nicely right out the window. If they don't even wait to redline their own cars, they're really gonna care about a rental car? And that's called break-in? And I don't know about the East Coast, but around here...moms get the E500's, and they generally don't "gun it". Dad's get the M3's and 5-series and Audi's - but they still can't gun it because of traffic :). Our ML320 was kept below 4000RPM for 10K miles. I broke 6000 BY ACCIDENT at 11K because I hit the kickdown switch in the floorboard while a bus was about to broadside me.

I'm still shocked that you say autos have lower RPM in general. Yes, on the highway they do spin lower RPM's - but with a manual I can shift whenever the hell I want around town - not so in an auto. I stick by my guns - I keep my entire morning commute under 2000RPM, while every auto car we own is excited to go 2500RPM (and if you didn't know we do have a Camry, I would say that car is pretty much tuned for fuel economy and emission yea? And I can't make that car shift - no TouchShift, because it is not a Mercedes :) ).

You can get into third around town? That's not such a big deal. Me and at least one other member on this forum both routinely cruise in 5th gear around town. We drop a few gears if we need to move - but 5th does just fine for keeping the car moving. In stop and go - I don't need 4th. I'm off idle when I'm in second - I don't think you can really accelerate or even keep the engine running in 4th. So when I'm not accelerating, I just use neutral. In gear RPM > idle RPM. I win.

In any case, I seriously doubt you can get into 4th in stop and go traffic. If all Honda trannies did that, the frequent shifting could explain their high failure rate...hey maybe we're on to something here :dunno: Not...

I am REALLY lost man. Seriously, I wanna know who's paying you or if you really owned a JDM SiR with a 5-speed.

crud, i want to add a line that says, hey, i abuse my own car too!! (need a valid response for stiller fan. :lmao; )

:blah:

I never said "average Mercedes owner." I read this from forums and from talking to people - if people are passionate enough to give a care about break-in and go onto forums for info, I'd call them above average. I'm also pretty sure your average Mercedes V8 owner will not be redlining. If they all did, then you just threw your rental car theory and how people treat them nicely right out the window. If they don't even wait to redline their own cars, they're really gonna care about a rental car? And that's called break-in? And I don't know about the East Coast, but around here...moms get the E500's, and they generally don't "gun it". Dad's get the M3's and 5-series and Audi's - but they still can't gun it because of traffic :). Our ML320 was kept below 4000RPM for 10K miles. I broke 6000 BY ACCIDENT at 11K because I hit the kickdown switch in the floorboard while a bus was about to broadside me.

Well around here, a lot of people buy mercedes because they want to drive fast. Mostly it's the "bling" factor. These guys do "gun it" late in the middle of the night etc, but I will admit it's not just mercedes. There are a fair number of other vehicles that people drive hard.

But you're doing as if hard driving is bad for a car. That's an issue that's really up for debate.

I'm still shocked that you say autos have lower RPM in general. Yes, on the highway they do spin lower RPM's

Didn't say they were higher in general, but I did say that Honda keeps the revs low for FE. I barely even cross 2k during normal driving. If I floor it I'll go up 4, 5 maybe 6 if I'm lucky. And I know I'm not alone. I've seen at least one other person drive a 7th gen (coupe) and barely cross 3k when accelerating. And you do admit that the revs are lower during highway driving.

- but with a manual I can shift whenever the hell I want around town - not so in an auto. I stick by my guns - I keep my entire morning commute under 2000RPM, while every auto car we own is excited to go 2500RPM (and if you didn't know we do have a Camry, I would say that car is pretty much tuned for fuel economy and emission yea? And I can't make that car shift - no TouchShift, because it is not a Mercedes :) ).

Um, so do I in an auto. Most of my around town driving the revs are 1.5k and not just when I'm sitting in traffic. 30-40MPH I'm barely above 1k. (NYC speed limit is 30MPH unless stated).

You can get into third around town? That's not such a big deal. Me and at least one other member on this forum both routinely cruise in 5th gear around town. We drop a few gears if we need to move - but 5th does just fine for keeping the car moving. In stop and go - I don't need 4th. I'm off idle when I'm in second - I don't think you can really accelerate or even keep the engine running in 4th. So when I'm not accelerating, I just use neutral. In gear RPM > idle RPM. I win.

Driving styles - obviously when accelerating rapidly you'll be in a lower gear. That's the "kickdown" as we call it. Lower gear to build momentum then higher gear. But the way I drive I'll just bring it up slowly (unless I have reason to rush). The shifts are smooth and the revs will go down to 1k-1.5k

In any case, I seriously doubt you can get into 4th in stop and go traffic. If all Honda trannies did that, the frequent shifting could explain their high failure rate...hey maybe we're on to something here :dunno: Not...

Depends on what you define as stop and go. Bumper to bumper, probably not. Speeds are at most 10MPH. But stop and go often reaches 30-40MPH with frequent stops at stoplights. I can definitely hit fourth.

I am REALLY lost man. Seriously, I wanna know who's paying you or if you really owned a JDM SiR with a 5-speed.


I owned a JDM SiR with an automatic, not a 5 speed.

No one's paying me.