Popping noise 2003 Accord L4- update

[bojo]

I just picked up my car from Honda Service. Car has been re-welded as per TSB 03-58 Sep 23, 2003. I was told that the noise was gone now. However, I do not feel any change, noise is still there. Relatively easy fix as I was told is obviously not that easy.
I will keep you posted.

[BenjiBoy650]

Re-welded?! I would ask the dealer to buy the car back or sell it. If they had to reweld it and it's still making noise, that's putting you in danger.

[bojo]

Where do you see danger? What possibly could happen?
BTW guy whose job is to fix wrecked cars said that if it is anything in or around fire wall on new car that has to be welded he would not do it!!

[BenjiBoy650]

Well I haven't seen the TSB so maybe I'm not thinking of the right kind of weld. I remember a case on a 2000 Mercedes ML320 where the entire chassis from the A-pillar forward had to be re-welded with the same popping noises both before and after. Obviously, if it's the chassis and it's popping, this is representing some kind of danger in the event of a serious accident or perhaps the car may even break apart. I'm not sure if this is the same thing with the Accord, certainly I'd hope not.

Also I'm not too sure on this but wouldn't re-welded parts compromise the strength?

[bojo]

You are definitely right but how you defend that, how you prove that? I already spoke to Defect Investigator from Ministry of Transport he did not see how safety could be compromised! However I totally agree with you.
I never heard of Mercedes case? What happened there? What kind of settlement was reached in that case?
As far as integrity of the car is concerned I would say that it is definitely altered significantly. Honda would claim that car is better then under manufacturer specs (you go to first body shop that is available to weld your car and that is called better then specs). I would say no!
I would really like to know how the Mercedes case ended!

[BenjiBoy650]

The Mercedes case ended well. The dealer rewelded the car and it was still making noise. The guy sold it to some other sucker and bought a Lexus RX300. That's the last I heard about it.

We have a problem on this board with uploading files, so I couldn't view the file that you uploaded. However, if you could describe what kind of welds it was that would be good. Basically my thinking is that if you get into a major accident, the weld from the body shop is not as strong and would buckle. Therefore, the crumple zones that Honda engineers designed wouldn't work, in effect turning the entire ****pit into the crumple zone.

You could point out that in England, there are shops that basically cut two cars in half (because one end of each car was in an accident) and weld the better halves of each car back together. The British government of course clearly prohibits this, they did a crash test on one such car and it failed miserably. Would not the Accord be under a similar (though not as severe) set of circumstances?

[bojo]

This is what I think they did. There is similar procedure for V6 mine is L4. I think they actually followed procedure for V6 but anyway here is what I found in this forum:

DIAGNOSIS
1. Check with your customer to find out if this noise happens just once when driving the vehicle after it has been sitting for a while.
• If this is the case, your customer may be hearing the ABS self-check. Refer to the article “ABS Grunt When Doing a Self-Check” in the November 2002 issue of ServiceNews. The self-check for the 2003 Accord V6 is particularly noticeable and could easily be mistaken for a body creak or pop. Return the vehicle to your customer, and explain the reason for the noise.
• If this is noise happens under various conditions, go to step 2.
2. Park the vehicle on an incline. Make sure the parking brake is fully set.
3. Start the engine. For A/T models, shift into Drive, and lightly tap the accelerator; for M/T models, press the clutch pedal, shift into 1st gear, slowly release the clutch pedal, and lightly tap the accelerator.
• If you hear a creak or pop each time you tap the accelerator, go to step 4.
• If you do not hear a creak or pop, disregard this service bulletin, and continue with normal troubleshooting procedures.
4. Raise the vehicle on a lift.
5. Loosen the left rear bolt explain the reason for the noise.
• If this is noise happens under various conditions, go to step 2.
2. Park the vehicle on an incline. Make sure the parking brake is fully set.
3. Start the engine. For A/T models, shift into Drive, and lightly tap the accelerator; for M/T models, press the clutch pedal, shift into 1st gear, slowly release the clutch pedal, and lightly tap the accelerator.
• If you hear a creak or pop each time you tap the accelerator, go to step 4.
• If you do not hear a creak or pop, disregard this service bulletin, and continue with normal troubleshooting procedures.
4. Raise the vehicle on a lift.
5. Loosen the left rear bolt on the subframe.
6. Lower the vehicle.
7. Park the vehicle on an incline. Make sure the parking brake is fully set.
8. Start the engine. For A/T models, shift into Drive, and lightly tap the accelerator; for M/T models,press the clutch pedal, shift into 1st gear, slowly release the clutch pedal, and lightly tap theaccelerator.
• If you do not hear a creak or pop, go to REPAIR PROCEDURE.
• If you hear a creak or pop, disregard this service bulletin, and continue with normal troubleshooting. Make sure you retorque the subframe bolt to 103 N•m (76 lb-ft).

REPAIR PROCEDURE
NOTE: This procedure should be done only by a professional welder or by a reputable body shop.
1. Make sure you have the anti-theft codes for the radio and navigation system (if applicable), then write down your customer’s radio station presets.
2. Disconnect the negative cable from the battery.
3. Remove the driver’s center lower cover (one screw, one clip) from the dashboard.
4. Remove the passenger’s center lower cover (one clip) from the dashboard.
5. Pull back the carpet and sound deadener mat from the side of the floor tunnel. Insert a large, deep socket (24 mm or larger) under the sound deadener mat, past the second body seam. Repeat this step for the other side of the floor tunnel.
6. Raise the vehicle on a lift.
7. Torque the subframe bolt you loosened in

DIAGNOSIS to 103 N•m (76 lb-ft)
8. L4 models only: Remove the secondary heated oxygen se on the subframe.
6. Lower the vehicle.
7. Park the vehicle on an incline. Make sure the parking brake is fully set.
8. Start the engine. For A/T models, shift into Drive, and lightly tap the accelerator; for M/T models,press the clutch pedal, shift into 1st gear, slowly release the clutch pedal, and lightly tap theaccelerator.
• If you do not hear a creak or pop, go to REPAIR PROCEDURE.
• If you hear a creak or pop, disregard this service bulletin, and continue with normal troubleshooting. Make sure you retorque the subframe bolt to 103 N•m (76 lb-ft).

REPAIR PROCEDURE
NOTE: This procedure should be done only by a professional welder or by a reputable body shop.
1. Make sure you have the anti-theft codes for the radio and navigation system (if applicable), then write down your customer’s radio station presets.
2. Disconnect the negative cable from the battery.
3. Remove the driver’s center lower cover (one screw, one clip) from the dashboard.
4. Remove the passenger’s center lower cover (one clip) from the dashboard.
5. Pull back the carpet and sound deadener mat from the side of the floor tunnel. Insert a large, deep socket (24 mm or larger) under the sound deadener mat, past the second body seam. Repeat this step for the other side of the floor tunnel.
6. Raise the vehicle on a lift.
7. Torque the subframe bolt you loosened in

DIAGNOSIS to 103 N•m (76 lb-ft)
8. L4 models only: Remove the secondary heated oxygen sensor from the catalytic converter. Unclip the wire harness from the exhaust heat shield (two clips).
9. Remove the catalytic converter (six self-locking nuts, three nuts per flange). Discard the
self-locking nuts and the two gaskets.
10. Remove the exhaust heat shield (four bolts).
11. Remove all sealer and paint from the wall of the floor tunnel in the area shown. Do this on both walls of the floor tunnel.
12. Make sure the shift cabling is protected and out of the way of the weld area.
To avoid overheating the sound deadener mat, this step should be done only by a professional welder and with someone carefully watching the floor tunnel area inside the vehicle while the welding is taking place.
13. Make an 8-to-10-mm-long MIG weld halfway up the wall of the floor tunnel on the fonsor from the catalytic converter. Unclip the wire harness from the exhaust heat shield (two clips).
9. Remove the catalytic converter (six self-locking nuts, three nuts per flange). Discard the
self-locking nuts and the two gaskets.
10. Remove the exhaust heat shield (four bolts).
11. Remove all sealer and paint from the wall of the floor tunnel in the area shown. Do this on both walls of the floor tunnel.
12. Make sure the shift cabling is protected and out of the way of the weld area.
To avoid overheating the sound deadener mat, this step should be done only by a professional welder and with someone carefully watching the floor tunnel area inside the vehicle while the welding is taking place.
13. Make an 8-to-10-mm-long MIG weld halfway up the wall of the floor tunnel on the forward body seam. Do this on both walls of the floor tunnel.
14. Grind down the welds as needed.
15. Clean the welded areas, then prime and paint them. Apply sealant over the newly painted areas.
16. Reinstall the exhaust heat shield.
17. Reinstall the catalytic converter with new gaskets and self-locking nuts. Torque the nuts to 33 N•m (25 lb-ft) in the sequence shown.
18. L4 models only: Reinstall the secondary heated oxygen sensor. Clip the wire harness into the heatshield.
19. Lower the vehicle.
20. Remove the sockets. Check the area on each side of the floor tunnel inside the vehicle. Clean the area, and touch it up if needed. Then lay down the sound deadener mat and the carpet.
NOTE: After you remove the socket, make sure the A/C drain hose on the passenger side is in the correct position and free from kinks . A kinked A/C drain hose could cause water damage to the ECM/PCM.
21. Reinstall the driver’s and passenger’s center lower covers.
22. Reconnect the negative cable to the battery.
23. Enter the anti-theft code for the radio and for the navigation system (if equipped). Enter your
customer’s radio station presets. Set the clock.

Hope this will help you to understand better what possible problem is and how that can affect integrity of the car.
I appreciate your participation.

[Inspector1]

Great post Bojo,

That's very interesting... I wonder if this Tsb is Vin or manufacturing plant specific .... It proves that robotic welders make mistakes just like humans....
:D

I1:)

[bojo]

Yes, TSB gives you specific VIN numbers. Do you want them?

[BenjiBoy650]

Still not quite clear where the weld is or what its purpose is.

However, after some thinking, it seems like this is not a recall yet so it can't be a major problem if it's not fixed. Also, if it's dangerous NHTSA will make them recall it, and NHTSA gets all TSB's too.

I wouldn't allow this problem to get fixed too often. If you put heat through metal (like the temps that welding would bring it up to) and then cool it down, and you do this too many times, I'm willing to bet the metal is going to get brittle or otherwise adversely affected (though not 100% sure). For now, at least to me, it doesn't look too dangerous anymore.

Hopefully, your case will be remedied to your liking because we don't want the floorpan to fall out or anything lol

[princess]

It's NOT a safety issue, it's a noise! 2 pieces of metal rubbing when they shouldn't. Annoying, yes. It IS welded, just not quite in the right spot for the noise problem! Since most dealers don't have body shops, they usually sublet them out to one.

Bojo, I see you got the bulletin I sent you.

[bojo]

I hope you are right. I just was not expecting that to happen to me, I guess. I am kind of concerned when it comes to welding new car, that’s all!
I believe that Honda is still very good and reliable car maker and that I will enjoy in my new car as soon as this problem is resolved.
Maybe your earlier suggestion to trade it for different model might be the solution to the problem. I will see after Honda representative has driven my car.