From: Motortrend (http://blogs.motortrend.com/a-chat-with-honda%e2%80%99s-bosses-19481.html#ixzz1fPLmVl1D)

Toyota reportedly made radical changes to its Camry in response to the Korean competition. Has the Accord experienced any such delays? No. The Accord due next year is expected to be quite successful without radical changes made midway through its development, as it has been designed with full knowledge of the competitive landscape.



The rest of the interview.....


Honda President and CEO Takanobu Ito::

There’s been a new sheriff in Hondaville since June 2009, and he understands what we automotive media types have been whining about recently, regarding Honda’s design and technology malaise. Takanobu Ito assumed the presidency then and has ever since been yanking on the reins of the company to steer it away from the green/efficiency-trumps-everything direction it was wobbling in and back towards its roots as a manufacturer of high-performing, fun-to-drive, and environmentally friendly cars. Uncharacteristically charismatic as Japanese auto magnates go, Ito-san doesn’t mince words and doesn’t make excuses. His resume suggests he may indeed have the stuff to put Honda’s money where his mouth is, having stamped his passport as a general supervisor of motorsports starting in April 2004, and before that having served as Executive Vice President of Honda R&D Americas since 1998. Right at the top of the interview, Ito-san declared that upon assuming the presidency, he made it clear that he intended for Honda to regain the high ground in terms of fun-to-drive and technological innovation. The supercar to be unveiled in Detroit will certainly represent a giant leap forward in the former, and the tech on display at Twin-Ring Motegi on the eve of the 2011 Tokyo Motor Show, suggests his troops have made a reasonable start toward the latter. Here are some highlights of our hour-long session.

Battery EVs versus hybrids: EVs make a lot of sense in compact and crowded Japan, hybrids make more sense in roomy America, where the Fit EV may prove to be as big an electric car as makes sense and as small a car as can be sold in reasonable numbers. Similarly, different types of hybrids will suit different vehicle types–IMA in small, low-priced cars, two-motor and SH-AWD hybrids in larger and luxury vehicles. Globally, he’s skeptical of Mr. Gohsn’s high sales aspirations for battery electrics, and agrees with most think-tank predictions that hybrids will grossly outsell EVs for the foreseeable future.

What went wrong with the Civic? Priorities got skewed. Ito-san takes full responsibility. That’s gallant, but he was serving as managing director of Honda del Peru when the big decisions were being made, so it doesn’t look like his fault. Steps are being taken to rectify the perceived deficiencies ASAP.

What’s next for Acura? Ito-san is not satisfied with the current performance of the brand in the U.S., though sales are strong in China and the Middle-East. He intends to make new products more unique and sporting. Look for the hybrid-electric Super-Handling AWD to figure in this renaissance, along with the supercar.

How will Honda cope with the strong Yen? The company is redoubling its efforts to build vehicles in the regions that consume them for the most part, with a goal of 80/20 domestic/import sourcing as a natural currency hedge. Toward that end, in order to fully utilize Japanese production capacity the company is attempting to increase its share of local sales in the popular Kei-class minicar class with products like the N Box and N Concept cars previewed at the Tokyo Show.

What about motorsports? Honda still finds competition to be fundamental to its interests. Ito-san stressed that there’s no truth to rumors of an impending return to Formula 1, but the company competes (successfully) in a number of other classes, including Indy racing, which is attracting some stiff competition of late. Honda also won Moto GP’s “triple crown”–leading in the rider, constructor, and team points counts.


President of Honda North America, Tetsuo Iwamura::

We enjoyed an equally open and honest conversation with Honda’s North America boss, and contemporary of chairman Ito, Tetsuo Iwamura. Both men joined Honda in 1978, and we have to imagine they are good friends, as their personalities, demeanor, and sense of humor seem quite similar and accessible to North Americans. Once again we lobbed in the hardballs, and Iwamura-san cracked away at them.

What are you doing to fix Acura? A new RDX and small sedan are on the immediate horizon next spring. Acura’s mission is to provide smart luxury that meets social needs, not just personal needs. The small sedan will share some platform architecture with the Civic but feature unique powertrains. The forthcoming supercar is a core element of Honda/Acura’s history and DNA, and will be sold as an Acura in North America. We will also hear news about the RL flagship sedan quite soon too.

Will the Ridgeline pickup continue? Honda’s only truck is an important model and there is no current plan to cancel the Ridgeline, and measures are being considered to expand its appeal. (There is also no word on the timing or content of its replacement.)

Toyota reportedly made radical changes to its Camry in response to the Korean competition. Has the Accord experienced any such delays? No. The Accord due next year is expected to be quite successful without radical changes made midway through its development, as it has been designed with full knowledge of the competitive landscape.

Why isn’t the Crosstour selling better? The problem is not with that this is too much of a niche product, it hasn’t been marketed correctly. Iwamura-san now believes that using the Accord name changed people’s expectation of what the car was. Subtle changes in store for the vehicle and a fresh marketing approach should change the sales picture.

What about those Consumer Reports jabs? For so many years the disparity between the competition and Honda in terms of quality, materials and technology was large. Now it is considerably smaller, but the world still expects great differences. Honda is redoubling its efforts to widen this gap again, and intends to add content and technology with minimal price increases.

Design has been a recent weak point. Are any changes coming in that area? No. Honda has a very clear design principle, known as mmmm–man maximum, machine minimum. Honda will continue to adhere to these principles and will not follow the mode of fashion. [That said, we feel the EVster and AC-X look considerably better than some other recent Hondas.]

Will North American production capacity increase to further reduce Yen-hampered imports from Japan? There are no plans to expand production to new locations beyond the forthcoming Mexico plant, but that plant and the Indiana plant have room to expand production somewhat, should demand warrant it. Meeting future CAFE targets will ultimately require more hybrids, however, and so Honda will need to consider building them here.

Not a big fan of the bulkier 8th generation, so this is not good news. I am hoping they go back to a mid-size sedan rather than full size but maybe that's Civic territory now.

I read this on MT too and I'm not sure how to interpret his answer:

A. The change from the 8th Gen to the 9th Gen is already so radical that they don't expect to make any radical changes for the 9th Gen's MMC.

B. They're not making any radical changes at all for the 9th Gen because they're expecting the Accord's reputation for reliability to make sales successful. With full knowledge of the competitive landscape meaning "Yeah, we realize that our competitors are equipping their cars with features people want but we're just going to ignore that".

:rolleyes:

I read this on MT too and I'm not sure how to interpret his answer:

A. The change from the 8th Gen to the 9th Gen is already so radical that they don't expect to make any radical changes for the 9th Gen's MMC.

B. They're not making any radical changes at all for the 9th Gen because they're expecting the Accord's reputation for reliability to make sales successful. With full knowledge of the competitive landscape meaning "Yeah, we realize that our competitors are equipping their cars with features people want but we're just going to ignore that".

:headbash:

If thats a legit comment - wow :thumbsdow

:headbash:

If thats a legit comment - wow :thumbsdow

What?

What?

Honda called the change from 8G to 9G "radical." :lmao:

Honda called the change from 8G to 9G "radical." :lmao:

No, Ito said, "The Accord due next year is expected to be quite successful without radical changes made midway through its development, as it has been designed with full knowledge of the competitive landscape."

Here's the deal - fire these dopes.
Why? Because they are ruining Honda.
The Civic was a dismal failure.
The Accord Coupe concept is following the same direction the Civic redesign did, which is not to redesign it and to add stuff no one asked for or wanted.
Really? A CVT? What "enthusiast" wants that, exactly?
Just look at all the CVT's being made by BMW, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Lotus, Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Chrysler, Mini, etc. None. Not one.
Who uses CVT's? Nissan. That's pretty much it here in the states.
And the new engine? Sure it gets direct injection, but not much more power. You can't tell me that Honda can eke 190 HP out of the 2.4l I4 without D.I., but can't find a way to make a D.I. engine do that in the new Accord? Here's a crazy idea - I'd happily take a D.I. engine if it pushed out at least 200 hp, but Honda, apparently, doesn't want to aim too high. Here's another fun fact - D.I. engines make more noise (mostly a clatter). Awesome. If there is one thing I've always felt was missing from my 4 cylinder, it was a clatter.
Crap transmission, crap design, crap engine improvement. Honda has failed to be what they used to be. Instead of moving the company forward, Honda believes they can increase sales with a redesign that looks like they slapped some chrome on. Instead of continuing to appeal to the enthusiast, Honda chose to go with a CVT, which is NOT an enthusiast transmission. Where is my 6 speed auto? Where is my dual clutch with flappy paddle shifters? Nah, no one wants an exciting transmission. Honda thinks we all want one that holds the engine close to the redline until you get off the gas. Meeoooooooooooooooooooo - 60. Fun!
What a shame....

Here's the deal - fire these dopes.
Why? Because they are ruining Honda.
The Civic was a dismal failure.
The Accord Coupe concept is following the same direction the Civic redesign did, which is not to redesign it and to add stuff no one asked for or wanted.
Really? A CVT? What "enthusiast" wants that, exactly?
Just look at all the CVT's being made by BMW, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Lotus, Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Chrysler, Mini, etc. None. Not one.
Who uses CVT's? Nissan. That's pretty much it here in the states.
And the new engine? Sure it gets direct injection, but not much more power. You can't tell me that Honda can eke 190 HP out of the 2.4l I4 without D.I., but can't find a way to make a D.I. engine do that in the new Accord? Here's a crazy idea - I'd happily take a D.I. engine if it pushed out at least 200 hp, but Honda, apparently, doesn't want to aim too high. Here's another fun fact - D.I. engines make more noise (mostly a clatter). Awesome. If there is one thing I've always felt was missing from my 4 cylinder, it was a clatter.
Crap transmission, crap design, crap engine improvement. Honda has failed to be what they used to be. Instead of moving the company forward, Honda believes they can increase sales with a redesign that looks like they slapped some chrome on. Instead of continuing to appeal to the enthusiast, Honda chose to go with a CVT, which is NOT an enthusiast transmission. Where is my 6 speed auto? Where is my dual clutch with flappy paddle shifters? Nah, no one wants an exciting transmission. Honda thinks we all want one that holds the engine close to the redline until you get off the gas. Meeoooooooooooooooooooo - 60. Fun!
What a shame....

What enthusiast wants an Accord?

I'm on your side but Honda doesn't make anything appealing to an enthusiast, aside from the SI (which isn't even a sports car).

What enthusiast wants an Accord?

I'm on your side but Honda doesn't make anything appealing to an enthusiast, aside from the SI (which isn't even a sports car).

This one, and many like me.
If you need a mid size sedan, you aren't going to find an affordable one that outperform the accord in terms of feel. The Camry is softer. The Altima is crass. The passat is boring. The Malibu is soft. Buick? Right.... Sonata? No feel.
The accord is the enthusiasts choice. Car and driver agrees. While the rest are perfectly competent, the accord dances.
All i'm saying is that the accord is driven by enthusiasts. The rest cater to older folks, people who don't care about feel, etc.

What enthusiast wants an Accord?

I'm on your side but Honda doesn't make anything appealing to an enthusiast, aside from the SI (which isn't even a sports car).

I do !!

What enthusiast wants an Accord?

I'm on your side but Honda doesn't make anything appealing to an enthusiast, aside from the SI (which isn't even a sports car).

I agree...dopes...I was with American Honda during the early years of the accord and the company is being run now by "safe executives & accountants" and not the engineers. They don't even have any ececutive "car guys" left that are enthusiasts, like they did in the 80's....Hell , the engineers have lost their mission too - they used to build engines first and everything else second. As long as they continue to ignore Sochiro Honda's legacy and what the company was founded on, they will continue to think their crap is cool....And it's not....

Jeff mentioned the word enthusiast. Years ago, Honda designed inexpensive cars for an enthusiast - moderately tight suspensions, smooth free revving engines, slick manual transmissions all wrapped up in a nearly bullet proof package. Do you remember the old days when Honda could slap a “market value adjustment” of $1,500 on an Accord and still have customers line up at the door to pay full sticker plus that market up? They were happy to do it because they knew it was worth the money. Honda ruled the world back then.

What happened? Did the competition get that much better? Did Honda stray from a winning game plan? Who was their target market then and who is their target market now and how do they attempt to satisfy their needs? Honda's cars are designed for the masses and have at best average reliability. I call Honda wasted potential. They have engineers so good that 99% of the F1 and Indy race cars want their engines. Yet what do they offer us? Bland cars that Honda hopes will appeal to the masses. Fortunately, we all have options. Brand loyalty must be earned with each new car’s generation. With Hyundai and Ford now building fantastic cars, and Mazda becoming the “Poor Man’s BMW,” I’ll be very curious to see how Honda’s sales turn out.

This one, and many like me.
If you need a mid size sedan, you aren't going to find an affordable one that outperform the accord in terms of feel. The Camry is softer. The Altima is crass. The passat is boring. The Malibu is soft. Buick? Right.... Sonata? No feel.
The accord is the enthusiasts choice. Car and driver agrees. While the rest are perfectly competent, the accord dances.
All i'm saying is that the accord is driven by enthusiasts. The rest cater to older folks, people who don't care about feel, etc.

While I agree with most of your posts of this forum I can't agree completely with this one.

The Passat is the enthusiast's choice. It's more expensive than Accord for a similarly equipped car but as far as a "driver's car" goes my experience with Passat tells me it's a better "driver's car" than Accord. Of the cars you listed I would put the Accord second in terms of driver involvement and driver feedback. I've driven several Accords and several Passats on the track (the very place where enthusiasts can rely appreciate the chassis beneath them) and Passat > Accord in the track arena.

What enthusiast wants an Accord?

I'm on your side but Honda doesn't make anything appealing to an enthusiast, aside from the SI (which isn't even a sports car).

I agree. I will answer your question, though. The enthusiast who wants an Accord is an enthusiast who doesn't want to pay extra for the likes of Passat. Said enthusiast, if he's a true enthusiast, will realize that in driving dynamics on twisty roads or on the track the Accord is not quite up to the dynamics of Passat.

I'm an enthusiast and I bought Accord. The Accord is not my only car though. I wouldn't own an Accord as my only car - while it's nice to drive it's not the choice of this enthusiast for spirited driving.

Jeff mentioned the word enthusiast. Years ago, Honda designed inexpensive cars for an enthusiast - moderately tight suspensions, smooth free revving engines, slick manual transmissions all wrapped up in a nearly bullet proof package. Do you remember the old days when Honda could slap a “market value adjustment” of $1,500 on an Accord and still have customers line up at the door to pay full sticker plus that market up? They were happy to do it because they knew it was worth the money. Honda ruled the world back then.

What happened? Did the competition get that much better? Did Honda stray from a winning game plan? Who was their target market then and who is their target market now and how do they attempt to satisfy their needs? Honda's cars are designed for the masses and have at best average reliability. I call Honda wasted potential. They have engineers so good that 99% of the F1 and Indy race cars want their engines. Yet what do they offer us? Bland cars that Honda hopes will appeal to the masses. Fortunately, we all have options. Brand loyalty must be earned with each new car’s generation. With Hyundai and Ford now building fantastic cars, and Mazda becoming the “Poor Man’s BMW,” I’ll be very curious to see how Honda’s sales turn out.

It seems the company changed dramatically when the founder stopped running the company. He was responsible for the NSX being brought to market. His dream car. Fun cars like the CRX, Prelude, Integra, S2000 were also available. Now and for many years it's like a boring corporate bean counter was promoted to run the company. :thumbsdow

Has anyone driven a new Mazda 6? For the driver who craves an enthusiast’s sedan (in the price range), neither the Passat nor the Accord comes close. Mazda is the car enthusiasts should buy today. That is their niche. Mazda is not trying to be everything to everybody, like Honda. Their target market is the “sportier” driver. And they are willing to forgo sales to Honda and Toyota to better satisfy the needs of this market segment. I don’t mean to sound like an advertisement for Mazda, but the Mazda6 has sharp reflexes, accurate steering, firm suspension, minimal body roll, is fun and rewarding to drive. The car has soul. It is the car many of our forum members wishes Honda would make.

A guy on here traded his 08 6-6 for a Mazda 6 I4 6mt and really loves it:

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=28159

From a few yrs ago.

It seems the company changed dramatically when the founder stopped running the company. He was responsible for the NSX being brought to market. His dream car. Fun cars like the CRX, Prelude, Integra, S2000 were also available. Now and for many years it's like a boring corporate bean counter was promoted to run the company. :thumbsdow

agreed - the change was when the accord became the #1 selling call in the US in 199_ (can't remember year). They moved from being a small car company TO A BIG CAR COMPANY. Regional offices expanded, the field force expanded, they became VOLUME, and with that comes mediocrity and the need to be all things to all people. - Like obama's speeches......

A guy on here traded his 08 6-6 for a Mazda 6 I4 6mt and really loves it:

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=28159

From a few yrs ago.

He's one of the rare few who wanted less power than he already had.

I've had 3 Mazda's... never again. After the first, I was fool to ever get another. Superior handling? Absolutely. Totally shitty build quality? Absolutely. Freaking rattle traps. My Honda is built like a Maybach compared to anything Mazda I have ever sat in. Never, ever, again. (granted the 6 I had was a 2006, so maybe they improved, but I ain't going back)

The trim he bought in 2009 doesn't even exist anymore. If he was buying a manual tranny Mazda6 today, he couldn't even get alloy wheels, much less nav, leather, or a sunroof.

When I bought my car in late 2004/early 2005, the Accord was the best compromise or ride, handling, fuel economy, and fun that I could find for the money.
I was getting out of my GTI VR6. I considered, ever so briefly, checking out some VW's until I looked at all the repairs that I had to do to my 98 GTI, which I bought brand new.
4 transmissions needed to be replaced. It seems that the sporty manual transmission had a serious issue and many owners ended up replacing it more than once (many others replaced it once, then sold it).
I also had to replace 4 window actuators. On a car with 2 windows.
I had to replace at least 3 wiring harnesses, which were located in a bundle underneath the vehicle with no protection. Each time, the VW geniuses told me that a rat had chewed through it. Interesting. So I asked why VW hasn't deemed it necessary to cover the wiring harness and received no answer.
I had a rear wiper/washer. Within a week of buying the brand new car, I had to replace the hose that fed washer fluid to the rear.
Both doors come with this rubber/plastic trim piece, which I guess could be called a door guard. Both fell off. Neither were covered under warranty.
My factory radio died suddenly. Three times. Each time requiring replacement.
The sunroof motor conked out just before my standard warranty was up, which was fortuitous indeed.
I had two brake jobs. In about 65k miles. For all the rotors and the pads.
The rear speakers rattled every day since two weeks after I bought the car. Not just at high volume, but pretty much all the time. VW couldn't detect the problem.
The interior was loud in all the wrong ways. Road noise, wind noise, and mechanical noise were all problems.
I understand that VW has spent a fortune trying to eliminate these sort of things, but my experience with VW has been somewhat soiled, so I doubt I'll drive one. Maybe if it's on a lease and warrantied. And the dealership offers free loaners.
My brother picked up a new CC and seems to be happy with it so far. We'll see.
As for my Honda? Here is the exhaustive list of repairs (oil changes, of course, are not included):
My battery died after 6 years.
I had to replace my front brakes.
One tail light bulb burned out.
That's it. Meanwhile, the car is fun to drive, economical, and once I get it buffed out, looks like a new car.
What I'm saying is that Honda is taking a seriously wrong turn if they think a redesign is "good enough" because someone fitted some cladding and bling. Honda is taking a seriously wrong turn and dumping their 5 speed automatic for a CVT that no one asked for or wants. Honda is taking a seriously wrong turn if they can't understand that a few hp and lb./ft is, frankly, pathetic when they put direct injection into their engines. Honda is taking a seriously wrong turn in not having, as a base engine, at least 190 hp. Honda could have put a 200 hp motor in their coupe, which should have been redesigned instead of spruced up, as a base model with a 6 speed, dual clutch automatic with paddle shifters. That car could have been a very intriguing enthusiasts vehicle.
Instead, they gave us a slightly redesigned exterior, a direct injection engine with slightly more power and efficiency, and a transmission that kills the fun and can be (read: is) unbearable to live with.
All after having to re-redesign the brand new Civic line, which apparently taught them absolutely nothing.
There is a very good chance that my next car will not be an Accord.

Knowing Honda pretty well, I'd guess right now they are shi**ing their pants after the de-toilet auto show. In fact, when they saw the lackluster sales of the civic and the CEO acknowledged it, I would say that was the time they realized they were in deep Do-do. Yup , the confession by the CEO was a bigger deal that most of us thought: because he knew the accord was in the wings looking and acting the same way...Uh-Oh......

When I bought my car in late 2004/early 2005, the Accord was the best compromise or ride, handling, fuel economy, and fun that I could find for the money.
I was getting out of my GTI VR6. I considered, ever so briefly, checking out some VW's until I looked at all the repairs that I had to do to my 98 GTI, which I bought brand new.
4 transmissions needed to be replaced. It seems that the sporty manual transmission had a serious issue and many owners ended up replacing it more than once (many others replaced it once, then sold it).
I also had to replace 4 window actuators. On a car with 2 windows.
I had to replace at least 3 wiring harnesses, which were located in a bundle underneath the vehicle with no protection. Each time, the VW geniuses told me that a rat had chewed through it. Interesting. So I asked why VW hasn't deemed it necessary to cover the wiring harness and received no answer.
I had a rear wiper/washer. Within a week of buying the brand new car, I had to replace the hose that fed washer fluid to the rear.
Both doors come with this rubber/plastic trim piece, which I guess could be called a door guard. Both fell off. Neither were covered under warranty.
My factory radio died suddenly. Three times. Each time requiring replacement.
The sunroof motor conked out just before my standard warranty was up, which was fortuitous indeed.
I had two brake jobs. In about 65k miles. For all the rotors and the pads.
The rear speakers rattled every day since two weeks after I bought the car. Not just at high volume, but pretty much all the time. VW couldn't detect the problem.
The interior was loud in all the wrong ways. Road noise, wind noise, and mechanical noise were all problems.
I understand that VW has spent a fortune trying to eliminate these sort of things, but my experience with VW has been somewhat soiled, so I doubt I'll drive one. Maybe if it's on a lease and warrantied. And the dealership offers free loaners.
My brother picked up a new CC and seems to be happy with it so far. We'll see.

:jawdrop: wow you serious ?
As for my Honda? Here is the exhaustive list of repairs (oil changes, of course, are not included):
My battery died after 6 years.
I had to replace my front brakes.
One tail light bulb burned out.

Part of car maintenance

Anyway, people please let the car come out and then see what have they done wrong, don't be judging already. As for CVT transmission who knows it might be better and nothing like what Nissan came up with.

Sells for Honda? whether you believe it or not they are selling the new civics. I am seeing a lot of 4dr and couple of 2drs. As for new gen Accord we will see when it comes out but they will sell those too, no problem for them.

:
Sells for Honda? whether you believe it or not they are selling the new civics. I am seeing a lot of 4dr and couple of 2drs. .

no they are not - civic sales are down 15% while the comp is up 10%... their CEO has admitted a huge mistake. I really wish people would research before saying stupid things like "I see a lot of them" great research...

try this:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/02/honda-ceo-takes-responsibility-for-poor-reception-of-redesigned/

I know you love the brand but leading with your chin won't get you far...

no they are not - civic sales are down 15% while the comp is up 10%... their CEO has admitted a huge mistake. I really wish people would research before saying stupid things like "I see a lot of them" great research...

try this:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/02/honda-ceo-takes-responsibility-for-poor-reception-of-redesigned/

I know you love the brand but leading with your chin won't get you far...
I really wished you understand what I meant, my point was they are selling them maybe percentage went down but STILL selling. When I see a lot them on streets, what does that mean ? it means (obviously) a lot of people already bought them, smart guy!
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/05/honda-says-2012-civic-inventory-is-virtually-zero-due-to-natur/

I do love the brand along with others but whatever I said ^ has nothing to do with it. Seriously will I make money or something out of it?

I really wished you understand what I meant, my point was they are selling them maybe percentage went down but STILL selling. When I see a lot them on streets, what does that mean ? it means (obviously) a lot of people already bought them, smart guy!
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/05/honda-says-2012-civic-inventory-is-virtually-zero-due-to-natur/

I do love the brand along with others but whatever I said ^ has nothing to do with it. Seriously will I make money or something out of it?

no..you just don't get it..I've seen how you debate here, not gonna do it...oh well, have fun in your world....

Problem is, no cvt is good.
Not one.
It's why only Nissan has forced CVT's on customers. Ever ridden/driven one? Awful.
There are plenty of YouTube clips that make my point.
No cvt is good.

Problem is, no cvt is good.
Not one.
It's why only Nissan has forced CVT's on customers. Ever ridden/driven one? Awful.
There are plenty of YouTube clips that make my point.
No cvt is good.

My wife and I love her 2008 Sentra. She has a 2.0L CVT, and everything about it is so smooth. No gear shifts makes it an interesting ride. I shared it with her for over a year before I got this car, and it was weird going back to gear shifts at first. :dunno:

This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62mynN8P6D8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Doesn't strike me as something I could live with for more than a few days....

Broooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

no..you just don't get it..I've seen how you debate here, not gonna do it...oh well, have fun in your world....

I perfectly get it your not happy with it but as far as the sells goes, they are selling it. What does my other debate have to with this:dunno: anyways I will enjoy our world since the world belongs to everyone not just me :thumbsup:

Doesn't strike me as something I could live with for more than a few days....

Broooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

:dunno: Must have miss something because I found nothing wrong

:dunno: Must have miss something because I found nothing wrong

He's talking about the common OCD where people want to hear gear shifts.

I've read so many negative opinions on the cvt's I was ready to begin believing them. That video seems fine when comparing it to an automatic trans. Yes, it's different but not that big a deal imo. Nothing like first hand experience though.

He's talking about the common OCD where people want to hear gear shifts.
:scratch:

^Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

^Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

K I did do a search but what does that have to do with cvt?

K I did do a search but what does that have to do with cvt?

The thing that was said.

People like to hear gear shifts. That is the only genuine complaint I've heard against CVT other than the OEM transmission ratios used and difficulty in reaching higher RPM.

The thing that was said.

People like to hear gear shifts. That is the only genuine complaint I've heard against CVT other than the OEM transmission ratios used and difficulty in reaching higher RPM.

Oh so is that what people don't like about cvt.

Bottom line on CVT transmissions. The ARE NOT enthusiast oriented. See BMW with one? How about Ferrari, Porsche? The only company that has one even in a remotely decent car is Nissan with the Altima V6 and Maxima. Otherwise CVT transmissions are for people that don't give a flip about cars in general. Is this the market that Honda wants? I sure hope not.............

CVTs are boring, they drone, and they do not get better gas mileage than a conventional auto.

Bad move Honda. I will not buy one. Ever, period. Many enthusiasts will agree........

Bottom line on CVT transmissions. The ARE NOT enthusiast oriented. See BMW with one? How about Ferrari, Porsche? The only company that has one even in a remotely decent car is Nissan with the Altima V6 and Maxima. Otherwise CVT transmissions are for people that don't give a flip about cars in general. Is this the market that Honda wants? I sure hope not.............


These brands have a whole different market.
CVTs are boring, they drone, and they do not get better gas mileage than a conventional auto.

From what I have read they do give you a better mileage.

:dunno:

It still cracks me up that people act like this. The Hybrid Civic from a decade ago had CVT. Honda isn't new to them. They are newer technology, but they have their application. My wife does not have any performance aspirations for her CVT, thus it is completely ideal.

Only time will tell ..................
By the way I still didn't get what OCD has to do with what was said.

This one, and many like me.
If you need a mid size sedan, you aren't going to find an affordable one that outperform the accord in terms of feel. The Camry is softer. The Altima is crass. The passat is boring. The Malibu is soft. Buick? Right.... Sonata? No feel.
The accord is the enthusiasts choice. Car and driver agrees. While the rest are perfectly competent, the accord dances.
All i'm saying is that the accord is driven by enthusiasts. The rest cater to older folks, people who don't care about feel, etc.

You must be kidding :lmao: Right?
On first post I tought you where serius guy. You probobly never drove passat, so you are forgiven. Drive one maybe 3.6 with DSG transmission, or tdi with over 40mpg and then post your comment please :thmsup:

You must be kidding :lmao: Right?
On first post I tought you where serius guy. You probobly never drove passat, so you are forgiven. Drive one maybe 3.6 with DSG transmission, or tdi with over 40mpg and then post your comment please :thmsup:

The 3.6 starts around $30k and can easily run closer to 40 grand and the tdi is a diesel engine. I was referring the mainstream model, the I-5, which is boring. As boring as vanilla. Soft and squishy.

I'll grant you that the 3.6 with the DSG is a solid choice, but at that price point, there is a much longer list of cars that I'd have to get through before I chose the Passat.

Now, a CC? Not bad. Fun, luxurious, and a nice looking car.

However, the concern with the concept is that they intend on pairing a CVT with a 4 cylinder engine, stripping the joy of driving from the car. Interesting that you wish to compare the Accord concept with a Passat. What kind of transmission do you get with the Passat? A CVT? Nope. A technologically advanced dual clutch DSG. VW doesn't sell a Passat with a CVT. Which should tell you all you need to know about Honda's weird decision.

Let's see, who uses the CVT in this car class? Only Nissan. One of the most common complaints from Altima owners? They hate the transmission. VW doesn't offer one in the Jetta or the Passat. Chevy doesn't offer one in the Malibu or Cruze. Ford doesn't offer one in the Fusion or Focus. Chrysler doesn't offer one in the 200 or the Charger/Challenger. Toyota doesn't offer one in the Camry or Corolla. BMW doesn't offer one in the 1 or 3 series. Mercedes doesn't offer one in the C class or E class. Subaru doesn't offer one in the Legacy, Impreza, or WRX. Hyundai doesn't offer one in the Sonata. That leaves Nissan on an island. You'd think that if the technology was so desired and applauded that Nissan would have seen a huge spike in sales since introducing them on their Altima and Maxima. And yes, they saw a slight surge in sales over 2011, but that was mostly attributed to shortages by Honda and Toyota, combined with stiff discounts and promotions.

I've driven a Passat with the I-5 and it was soft and slow.

Saying with a straight face that the Crosstour hasn't sold well because it was misnamed as an "Accord" should tell you how delusional Honda is as a company.

Here is directly why Crosstour sales $uck:


The car is absurdly ugly
It returns offensively poor fuel economy
It sacrafices outward visibility for (ugly) styling
It sacrafices utility for (ugly) styling
It is insultingly overpriced


Changing the damn car's name and increasing your marketing budget for the vehicle does not change ANY of the above noted problems, you bloody MORONS.

Earth to Honda: How about you increase your DESIGN budget and build a car that isn't hopelessly pathetic in the first place? Why not THAT? How about you try THAT?

GOD this issue just completely blows me away--------------- AhhHhHHHHHHhhhHH!!!! :furious:

The 3.6 starts around $30k and can easily run closer to 40 grand and the tdi is a diesel engine. I was referring the mainstream model, the I-5, which is boring. As boring as vanilla. Soft and squishy.

I'll grant you that the 3.6 with the DSG is a solid choice, but at that price point, there is a much longer list of cars that I'd have to get through before I chose the Passat.

Now, a CC? Not bad. Fun, luxurious, and a nice looking car.

However, the concern with the concept is that they intend on pairing a CVT with a 4 cylinder engine, stripping the joy of driving from the car. Interesting that you wish to compare the Accord concept with a Passat. What kind of transmission do you get with the Passat? A CVT? Nope. A technologically advanced dual clutch DSG. VW doesn't sell a Passat with a CVT. Which should tell you all you need to know about Honda's weird decision.

Let's see, who uses the CVT in this car class? Only Nissan. One of the most common complaints from Altima owners? They hate the transmission. VW doesn't offer one in the Jetta or the Passat. Chevy doesn't offer one in the Malibu or Cruze. Ford doesn't offer one in the Fusion or Focus. Chrysler doesn't offer one in the 200 or the Charger/Challenger. Toyota doesn't offer one in the Camry or Corolla. BMW doesn't offer one in the 1 or 3 series. Mercedes doesn't offer one in the C class or E class. Subaru doesn't offer one in the Legacy, Impreza, or WRX. Hyundai doesn't offer one in the Sonata. That leaves Nissan on an island. You'd think that if the technology was so desired and applauded that Nissan would have seen a huge spike in sales since introducing them on their Altima and Maxima. And yes, they saw a slight surge in sales over 2011, but that was mostly attributed to shortages by Honda and Toyota, combined with stiff discounts and promotions.

I've driven a Passat with the I-5 and it was soft and slow.

You had more time and went into more detail than I did before you, but thank you, I agree 100%. Honda has lost their mind on the CVT issue...........Yet another thing that is going to bite them in the rear. But hey, THEY know better than all of us Honda enthusiasts buying them, right?????:thumbsdow

Saying with a straight face that the Crosstour hasn't sold well because it was misnamed as an "Accord" should tell you how delusional Honda is as a company.

Here is directly why Crosstour sales $uck:


The car is absurdly ugly
It returns offensively poor fuel economy
It sacrafices outward visibility for (ugly) styling
It sacrafices utility for (ugly) styling
It is insultingly overpriced


Changing the damn car's name and increasing your marketing budget for the vehicle does not change ANY of the above noted problems, you bloody MORONS.

Earth to Honda: How about you increase your DESIGN budget and build a car that isn't hopelessly pathetic in the first place? Why not THAT? How about you try THAT?

GOD this issue just completely blows me away--------------- AhhHhHHHHHHhhhHH!!!! :furious:

Perfectly stated. Cheers to you.
The problem with Honda right now is that they've gotten complacent.
They sell a ton of cars, mostly on reputation.
When they redesigned the Accord for the 8th gen, the sedan and coupe were a pretty big styling change. Still, there were signs that the engineering and design folks weren't doing their best work. The rear end of the sedan, the odd headlights on the sedan, the crazy, button happy center stack - all indicative of a design studio that wasn't applying driver focused, enthusiast based thinking. And I like that car. A lot. Heck, the 7th gen sedan's rear end almost made me walk away from the sweet deal I was able to get. As were the steel wheels with plastic covers and rear drum brakes.

Honda had a real opportunity to build a car that incorporated better technology's and appeal to enthusiasts. Instead, they slapped some wheels that won't make it to production and some flashy body bits on the car and wants their customers, who they are well aware are enthusiasts, to live with a CVT instead of the 6 speed automatic every car magazine has been calling for. I would have completely been behind a dual clutch unit with paddle shifters (another thing that would have reinforced that Honda was enthusiast focused), but they decided not to.

As for the Honda Accord Crosstour, at first I chalked that up to trying to appeal to buyers who like ugly cars with big butts. Now I see that they were simply hoping to steal buyers away from Toyota's Venza, which is decidedly NOT an enthusiasts car.

But then they redesigned the Civic by doing, well, nothing really. Enthusiasts were calling for more power and a turbocharger for their Si, so naturally Honda chose to plop in the admittedly excellent 2.4 from the TSX. Honda, however, forgot to improve the quality of materials and, in fact, made the cars from cheaper feeling materials. The most common observation about the Si, besides the new powerplant, is the cheapness of the interior materials and the inadequate sound deadening. It's not like people have been complaining of interior noise (road noise, tire noise, wind noise) for years.... oh wait, yes. They have.

This "new" Accord illustrates what is wrong at Honda. They no longer seem to care about styling and design. They aren't listening to their customers or the many, many car reviewers out there who have been asking for 6 forward speeds and a shift gate, paddle shifters, or some other way for drivers to manipulate the gears. Instead, they plop in a CVT that no one asked for, no one wanted, and, save for Nissan, no one uses in their vehicles.

As a result, a converted raving fan (me) isn't considering the "new" Accord to replace his 05 Accord. The car isn't in my top 5 options. And that's just plain sad. It isn't because I don't like Honda. It isn't because the car isn't a decent value. It's because the direction the car is taking is wrong. I bought my Honda because it was the sportiest feeling, most direct car in my price range. I wanted a 4 cylinder and I wanted an automatic. I wanted a four door with room. Having driven several CVT's, including a Maxima (which has plenty of power), and it ****ed all the joy out of driving it. The CVT is the oddest, weirdest transmission around and keeps the car roaring during acceleration. And not in a good way. In a "moo-ing" way.

Thank you, again, when is honda going to listen to their core customers. When I had my GTI, I had a choice of 6 speed manual or DSG. Both of which were excellent choices. A dual clutch or 6 speed automatic are better choices than the CVT in ALL cases. Oh yeah, and by the way I owned a Maxima CVT for almost 2 years. Been there, never again. It does kill the joy of the car. If I wanted a CVT, I would buy a Pruis. It does work quite well in that application and I would live with with for 50 mpg efficiency. A car with sporting intentions, no, not gonna happen.

When I bought my car in late 2004/early 2005, the Accord was the best compromise or ride, handling, fuel economy, and fun that I could find for the money.
I was getting out of my GTI VR6. I considered, ever so briefly, checking out some VW's until I looked at all the repairs that I had to do to my 98 GTI, which I bought brand new.
4 transmissions needed to be replaced. It seems that the sporty manual transmission had a serious issue and many owners ended up replacing it more than once (many others replaced it once, then sold it).
I also had to replace 4 window actuators. On a car with 2 windows.
I had to replace at least 3 wiring harnesses, which were located in a bundle underneath the vehicle with no protection. Each time, the VW geniuses told me that a rat had chewed through it. Interesting. So I asked why VW hasn't deemed it necessary to cover the wiring harness and received no answer.
I had a rear wiper/washer. Within a week of buying the brand new car, I had to replace the hose that fed washer fluid to the rear.
Both doors come with this rubber/plastic trim piece, which I guess could be called a door guard. Both fell off. Neither were covered under warranty.
My factory radio died suddenly. Three times. Each time requiring replacement.
The sunroof motor conked out just before my standard warranty was up, which was fortuitous indeed.
I had two brake jobs. In about 65k miles. For all the rotors and the pads.
The rear speakers rattled every day since two weeks after I bought the car. Not just at high volume, but pretty much all the time. VW couldn't detect the problem.
The interior was loud in all the wrong ways. Road noise, wind noise, and mechanical noise were all problems.
I understand that VW has spent a fortune trying to eliminate these sort of things, but my experience with VW has been somewhat soiled, so I doubt I'll drive one. Maybe if it's on a lease and warrantied. And the dealership offers free loaners.
My brother picked up a new CC and seems to be happy with it so far. We'll see.
As for my Honda? Here is the exhaustive list of repairs (oil changes, of course, are not included):
My battery died after 6 years.
I had to replace my front brakes.
One tail light bulb burned out.
That's it. Meanwhile, the car is fun to drive, economical, and once I get it buffed out, looks like a new car.
What I'm saying is that Honda is taking a seriously wrong turn if they think a redesign is "good enough" because someone fitted some cladding and bling. Honda is taking a seriously wrong turn and dumping their 5 speed automatic for a CVT that no one asked for or wants. Honda is taking a seriously wrong turn if they can't understand that a few hp and lb./ft is, frankly, pathetic when they put direct injection into their engines. Honda is taking a seriously wrong turn in not having, as a base engine, at least 190 hp. Honda could have put a 200 hp motor in their coupe, which should have been redesigned instead of spruced up, as a base model with a 6 speed, dual clutch automatic with paddle shifters. That car could have been a very intriguing enthusiasts vehicle.
Instead, they gave us a slightly redesigned exterior, a direct injection engine with slightly more power and efficiency, and a transmission that kills the fun and can be (read: is) unbearable to live with.
All after having to re-redesign the brand new Civic line, which apparently taught them absolutely nothing.
There is a very good chance that my next car will not be an Accord.

I was sort of compelled to sell my 2006 Accord EXL manual 4 cyl and a few months later, when I needed a car again I just was not tempted by the current accord. I'll grant its a bit more comfy, handles marginally better but in every other respect - interior design/quality, steering, economy, shifter quality, stereo even subjective performance my 06 was better. I can't even get any leather Honda now with a manual shifter. Perversely (somewhat) I replaced the Accord with a 2000 VR6 GTi - and given it is now nearly 13 years old its been pretty reliable - a few sensors, alternator pulley, and that's all - just fluids. Its interior is still like new (apart from -40 temps last week causing the usua cup holder and glove box lid failure last week). My Accord was completely fault free but was only 2 years old with 40,000K when I sold it. The Golf's engine is a jewel, its tranny near perfect (not quite as good as my accord but better than the current gen). I really want to change it for a new Honda/Acura but nothing so far tempts me enough. I guess the ILX may be worth a look.....

My current car is a 2004 V6 accord coupe and I love it. However, its getting older and I have been eagerly awaiting some positive news about the next gen hoping for a sexy design, more power etc... I dont think I would ever drive a Hyundai but honestly I have found myself lusting after the body of the new Sonata. Slap a Honda logo on it and I would say that its an improvement over what Ive been seeing the last few years.

So, after reading all of this, looking at photos from the auto show in Detroit I can only hope that Honda will work some magic or do a refresh like they will probably have to do with the Civic..

Until then, my next upgrade will likely be a 2008 TL-S because thats the only thing I've really liked in my price point over the last few years...

Hope the 9th gen will have HID option or standard on high trim. Also better tires, interactice app like Entune.

I was sort of compelled to sell my 2006 Accord EXL manual 4 cyl and a few months later, when I needed a car again I just was not tempted by the current accord. I'll grant its a bit more comfy, handles marginally better but in every other respect - interior design/quality, steering, economy, shifter quality, stereo even subjective performance my 06 was better. I can't even get any leather Honda now with a manual shifter. Perversely (somewhat) I replaced the Accord with a 2000 VR6 GTi - and given it is now nearly 13 years old its been pretty reliable - a few sensors, alternator pulley, and that's all - just fluids. Its interior is still like new (apart from -40 temps last week causing the usua cup holder and glove box lid failure last week). My Accord was completely fault free but was only 2 years old with 40,000K when I sold it. The Golf's engine is a jewel, its tranny near perfect (not quite as good as my accord but better than the current gen). I really want to change it for a new Honda/Acura but nothing so far tempts me enough. I guess the ILX may be worth a look.....

Didn't get that far. Sold the VR6, got a TSX 6 speed. It's awesome. Though I'll admit the Accord was comfier and roomier and it steered a little better. Its lease deal cost the same as a Civic EXl or Si. So easy decision.

What the Next-Gen Honda Accord Needs to Succeed
Though Honda Accord sales were way up in April, the Nissan Altima beat it in midsize family sedan sales for many months before that. To sustain sales levels that once kept the Accord behind only the Toyota Camry, Honda knows it must step up its game.

Honda previewed the next-generation Accord with the Accord Coupe concept at the Detroit auto show. While we may have found the exterior changes underwhelming, we were more intrigued by the Accord Coupe concept’s mechanicals. The concept was powered by a new gasoline direct injection 2.4-liter four-banger, and a refreshed 3.5-liter V-6. The concept also had two new transmissions – a CVT and a six-speed auto (finally) – plus a plug-in hybrid model with a 15-mile city range besting the up-coming Prius Plugin.

Does the Accord Coupe concept preview a Honda midsizer that’s ready to once again challenge the Camry for sales leadership? Here’s what the Wide Open Throttle staff thinks the next-gen Honda Accord needs to succeed.

Christian Seabaugh

Having a Honda once meant that while you might be practical with your 2.5 children, you hadn’t yet given up on driving fun. The Accord used to be a lightweight and nimble alternative to the boring family sedan. Nowadays an Accord driver is just as likely to enjoy driving as the person behind the wheel of a Camry. To succeed, the Accord should rediscover the X-Factor that made the old version special. The car must be a touch sportier, and with rivals from Ford, Kia, and Volkswagen churning out stylish family sedans, it wouldn’t hurt if the next Accord is attractive, too.

Alex Nishimoto

With its Accord Coupe concept (pictured at right), Honda is giving American midsize sedan shoppers what they apparently want – an inoffensive, slightly newer-looking version of the cars they already drive. I’ve accepted that the midsize sedan class must evolve styling gradually so it doesn’t leave its conservative customers behind. What the Accord really needs to get its game back is value – an area Honda once dominated. Whatever the new Accord lacks in style, it must make up for in bang-for-buck factor. Give it a roomier cabin, standard Bluetooth connectivity, plus a competitive starting price, and the vanilla-loving crowds will flood into Honda dealerships. Also, if the Accord hopes to maintain its number-two best-seller status, the four-cylinder model must match or beat the 38-mpg highway rating of the new Altima’s base 2.5-liter I-4.

Erick Ayapana

Diesel. The next Accord needs a diesel. The projected powertrain choices should be enough to keep up with the competition, but if Honda really wants to stand out, the company should stuff a diesel into the Accord. The Volkswagen Jetta TDI is about to be joined by a hybrid model, so there’s no reason the Accord can’t get an oil-burning engine. Why not resurrect the diesel engine once planned for the Acura TSX? Diesels are gaining momentum in the U.S. and if Honda doesn’t jump on the bandwagon, the next-gen Mazda6 with the Skyactiv-D diesel could steal a big chunk of the Accord’s market share. In the styling department, Honda should copy the Chinese. Specifically, the U.S.-spec Accord should look something like the Chinese-market Concept C unveiled in Beijing a few weeks ago.

Karla Sanchez

Hondas have always been dinged for wind noise. I’d like to see Honda put more insulation in the next-gen Accord so owners can enjoy a quiet ride. Also, Honda should rework the interior to look sportier but avoid fake carbon fiber bits! Combine high-quality interior materials with the looks of the Concept C (pictured at right) and we’ve got a winner from a styling standpoint. The powertrain updates that were announced with the Accord Coupe concept will work well on the next-gen Accord. Sticking with a V-6 powertrain while competitors downsize to turbo-fours is a bold decision but, then again, why should Honda downsize when it makes one the best V-6s in the business?

Jason Udy

Honda is on the right track with the powertrains shown in the Accord Coupe concept at Detroit with one exception: the refreshed 3.5-liter V-6 needs to be mated to the ZF nine-speed automatic out of the gate. This is the best way to ensure the V-6 can be the best-in-class for fuel mileage now that some of the competition is using turbocharged direct-injected four-cylinders mated to six-speed automatics. The current Accord is already roomy and offers plenty of interior space. A simple yet easy to use dash layout is a must for the next-gen Accord while still providing all of the standard features consumers have come to expect in the segment. Styling should more closely resemble the bold Concept C rather than the safer Accord Coupe concept. Lastly, the Japanese automaker must bring back the fun-to-drive factor to all of its cars starting with a more confident chassis and suspension tuning.


Read more: http://wot.motortrend.com/wot-opinion-what-the-next-gen-honda-accord-needs-to-succeed-200069.html#ixzz1uLOQhSwd

I like Jason Udy's comment about how the V6 needs a 9-speed auto. Honda's going with a new 6-speed auto from a 5-speed. At Honda's rate, we'll be seeing a 9-speed auto in the 12th Gen Accord.

so with a 9 speed auto, when will the car be in overdrive for fuel efficiency?

so with a 9 speed auto, when will the car be in overdrive for fuel efficiency?

The 8th and 9th could be overdrive gears. The 1st through 6th or 7th could be geared more aggressively to help acceleration. It's helpful for heavy cars or cars with engines lacking torque.

The article was released on May 8th, but who knows when it was written? We won't be seeing a 9-speed auto in the 9th Gen (or anytime soon since Honda isn't a leader in innovations). According to the other threads, the transmissions will be a 6MT, 6AT, and a CVT.

Yea, anyone expecting a 9-speed for the next Accord is asking a little too much. Is there even a 9-speed out there? I know the Genesis has the 8-speed but that is the only one I can think of.

Yea, anyone expecting a 9-speed for the next Accord is asking a little too much. Is there even a 9-speed out there? I know the Genesis has the 8-speed but that is the only one I can think of.

Although Honda is said to be working to integrate a ZF 9speed automatic by 2014, it looks like the Accord is not, at this point, being considered for it.

http://wot.motortrend.com/we-hear-honda-acura-getting-zf-9-speed-automatic-by-2014-182755.html

Ford's next gen Fusion will have the option of a 1.6 turbo ecoboost wtih a 6 speed manual and navi.....

I still would take an Accord any day over a Ford, but....I wish Honda would allow the navi manual combo. I guess the Civic Si works for that.


from Ford's website for the 2013 Fusion:

Thank you and congratulations!


Congratulations on building your own 2013 Ford Fusion. Sign up to stay connected to the all-new Fusion



MODEL
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2013 Ford Fusion SE 1.6L EcoBoost™ Manual

COLORS
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Exterior:Oxford White
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Interior:Dune Cloth
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OPTIONS
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SE Standard Package
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SE Technology Package
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Voice Activated Navigation
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u can get navi with manual, just get a 6-6. and the 2008-09 ex-l offers manual as well.