Gas prices! [Archive] - Drive Accord Honda Forums

SSMV6

10-28-2005, 03:28 PM

The just interviewed a big oil refinery manager on a radio talk show and he said that demand is so high that they've been running 24/7 at full capacity for months due to the hurricanes and the iraq war. They can't even shut down for regular maintenance. He says this is why the gas companies can charge such high prices. Its just supply and demand. If people want to see the prices go down they have to curb their gas consumption.
Yes, it's supply and demand, but did they ever say what they'll do with over $40 billion in profits from the past year and a half? No. They're not willing to build additional refineries or increase the output capacity of the current refineries at all. I know demand is increasing because there are more people with cars than ever, but the oil companies are doing nothing to curb the demand. Instead, they're closing gas stations, neglecting repairs, and trying to point fingers with one hand while busily stuffing their profit into their overflowing pockets with the other.

You could say that the price per barrel of crude oil has gone higher than ever and the oil companies are adjusting their prices to compensate, but what most people don't know is the gas they were using were bought at a much lower price before the price per barrel went up. When the price per barrel goes down, the prices at the pump goes down too, but at a much, much slower rate. The oil companies know America relies on oil to function and it's making every excuse to avoid major confrontation from its consumers by playing on our ignorance. :mad:

EXLNavi

10-28-2005, 04:30 PM

Can they explain the record profits? I thought PROFITS come after the cost of production comes off. Am I wrong? :dunno:

You're not wrong, but look at the stats I posted. While record breaking in quantity, it's about average in percentage. Mathematically, they're right about where they were. Economically, they've done better.

stiller fan

10-28-2005, 04:34 PM

how about the profits over the past 5 years, when gas was a lot cheaper???? didn't notice those numbers......... were the profits margins about the same then too, or alot less?

saw on usa today's front page that sen frist is trying to get a senate hearings committee together to find out if the price gouging the oil companies are legit, or only just to maximize profits only.....

EXLNavi

10-28-2005, 04:44 PM

Yes, it's supply and demand, but did they ever say what they'll do with over $40 billion in profits from the past year and a half? No. They're not willing to build additional refineries or increase the output capacity of the current refineries at all. I know demand is increasing because there are more people with cars than ever, but the oil companies are doing nothing to curb the demand. Instead, they're closing gas stations, neglecting repairs, and trying to point fingers with one hand while busily stuffing their profit into their overflowing pockets with the other.

Really?

Firstly, regarding your last issue, gas station closings are really not their fault so much as it is the owners. The retail side of things is handled by private owners and franchisees.

And as for your point of more refineries not being built, well there are a number of reasons why this is so. Mostly because it doesn't make economic sense.

A nice article (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/editorial/3416196
) sums it up.

Visiting scholar Fereidun Fesharaki, a senior fellow of the East-West Center, told the Chronicle that U.S. oil companies will not build new refineries because their executives are not stupid. Huge refining capacity is coming online offshore, Fesharaki said. Europe is moving toward diesel, freeing up capacity for refining gasoline that will be exported to the United States.

U.S. Energy Secretary Samuel Bodman seems to agree, suggesting that refineries abroad were more likely than new U.S. plants to expand gasoline supplies available to American drivers. Fesharaki said growing U.S. demand (and not the relatively modest demand for imports in India and China) was the cause of today's tight supplies.

Both Fesharaki and Bodman said reducing U.S. demand through conservation and changed habits was the best short-term solution to tight supplies.

In the corporate world, there's no such thing as charity. Business decisions are made solely in the interest of owners and shareholders. Making new refineries will not make economic sense, and therefore companies will not do it.

Forcing them to do it is a bad idea. It totally undermines the concept of a free market and the oil companies will probably just fold up instead of bowing to Government demands to open more refineries.

You could say that the price per barrel of crude oil has gone higher than ever and the oil companies are adjusting their prices to compensate, but what most people don't know is the gas they were using were bought at a much lower price before the price per barrel went up. When the price per barrel goes down, the prices at the pump goes down too, but at a much, much slower rate. The oil companies know America relies on oil to function and it's making every excuse to avoid major confrontation from its consumers by playing on our ignorance. :mad:

WEll I think the solution to the above problem would be to move away from oil, but that's just my idealistic thinking...

The fact is that consumption worldwide is UP and even in the USA it is UP. our demand for energy is much higher than before. Supply and demand dictates that the price will go up with higher demand, which will provide a disincentive for more demand...

Bear in mind as well that gasoline is a publicly traded commodity. Makes it kinda hard for any sort of price fixing.

EXLNavi

10-28-2005, 04:45 PM

how about the profits over the past 5 years, when gas was a lot cheaper???? didn't notice those numbers......... were the profits margins about the same then too, or alot less?

The percentages were about the same, which would imply that the margins were about the same.

princess

10-28-2005, 04:46 PM

stiller fan

10-28-2005, 04:47 PM

It feels like a bigger chunk of all of our paychecks are going into the wrong pockets!!

agreed!!! :yes:

stiller fan

10-28-2005, 04:48 PM

The percentages were about the same, which would imply that the margins were about the same.

not to be harsh, but do you know for sure??? just asking out of curiousity...... :)

EXLNavi

10-28-2005, 05:06 PM

not to be harsh, but do you know for sure??? just asking out of curiousity...... :)

Well I did post some history dating back to 04?

Most of this info is public, if you google hard enough.

EXLNavi

10-28-2005, 05:11 PM

Not long ago Chevron reported a 150% profit....

It seems like no matter how you cut it, they're charging us more than it costs to make it. The costs of production may have gone up, the price of oil & all the stuff attached.....but if the "profits" are up then they got more comin' in than they got goin' out....by far.

If I had more outgo when I had more income it would count as an increase, right? Say my income is 100K a year for 2003 & 110K for 2004.... with changes in the outgo it went from 80K to 85K....I have more funds in the end even though the costs were higher, so was the income. I'd consider it a good year.... not make excuses as to why it really wasn't! The WHERE it went isn't important to the rest of the world, the fact there's more for them when we were paying so much is just plain heart breaking!!

It feels like a bigger chunk of all of our paychecks are going into the wrong pockets!!

Well if you look at it, the sheer size of these companies is causing them to report record profits.

But if you look at the percentages, they are like 120ish on the list of large companies in terms of profit margin. Meaning that there are a lot more companies that make more percentage profits than they do.

Years ago they did surveys and actually found out that refining capacity was well in excess of demand, especially in the west coast. Fast forward to now, where demand has increased sharply. They can't just build a refinery overnight, and just to plan it out costs a LOT of money. Refineries are a horrible investment. They cost a lot of money for very little return.

princess

10-28-2005, 05:26 PM

where demand has increased sharply

I'm not conviced of this....I know it's what they say, but it doesn't make any sense. If our cars use less, out heaters use less even more of them would mean it would be about even.

They've been using that excuse for both sides....

We pay more than SoCal because there's less people buying here..... then they say we pay more here because of there being more demand. :dunno: Supply & demand just can't be the REAL reason!

Generally if you buy something at a small store you pay more because they did, if you buy the same thing at a big store you pay less 'cuz they did. That's the whole idea behind Costco. They buy in bulk. So if we really are buying more fuel, then normal logic is that it would cost us less.

If it costs 10 bucks to fire up that part of the refinery for per 10 gallons made, then the next 10 gallons would cost a few cents less 'cuz it's already all fired up, & so on.....

I feel cheated!

EXLNavi

10-28-2005, 07:40 PM

I'm not conviced of this....I know it's what they say, but it doesn't make any sense. If our cars use less, out heaters use less even more of them would mean it would be about even.

Americans are driving more miles than ever before. More cars and more miles. Other forms of energy are being used more and more. You live in California, you know about the energy crisis and stuff...

We pay more than SoCal because there's less people buying here..... then they say we pay more here because of there being more demand. :dunno: Supply & demand just can't be the REAL reason!

Supply and demand is the surface symptom, but the bigger problem is what's causing refineries to close and new ones not to be built. Environmental regulations force refineries to conform or close down. New ones need lots of lead time and money to be built. Like I said, they're not a good investment. Oil companies cringe at the thought of building new refineries because they're simply not profitable... So I guess in a way you could say that yes they are manipulating the market, but I don't think it's all on purpose.

Generally if you buy something at a small store you pay more because they did, if you buy the same thing at a big store you pay less 'cuz they did. That's the whole idea behind Costco. They buy in bulk. So if we really are buying more fuel, then normal logic is that it would cost us less.

If it costs 10 bucks to fire up that part of the refinery for per 10 gallons made, then the next 10 gallons would cost a few cents less 'cuz it's already all fired up, & so on.....

I feel cheated!

Volume is only good when one person or an organized group buys in bulk, other than that it's just retail.

BenjiBoy650

10-28-2005, 07:49 PM

EXLNavi

10-28-2005, 08:09 PM

You're all WRONG! Ok so it's not that simple.

I understand all the points made here. But seriously, why does an oil company need to pocket billions of dollars? I mean, that's not even going to executives or CEO's, that's just going into a company's friggin bank account! That is just ridiculous. Can you imagine how many people they could feed instead of just lining the COMPANY'S pocket's?

Yes it works if one person buys in bulk, otherwise it's just retail. But come on, I don't care what the percentages are, it's just common sense. A small percent of a lot is still a lot, a big percent of a little is still a little. I don't look at percentage...how can you defend the oil company's by saying that there are more companies making higher percentage on their profits? That's just ridiculous. When it comes down to hard raw numbers, we're getting skinned alive by the oil companies and we all know it.

You can stop trying to convince us now :)

A business works for its owners and shareholders. It is not a charity. They're in business to make money.

Exxon Mobil has about 6.3 billion shares outstanding. That represents earnings of about $1.38 per share for the quarter. A share would cost about $56.84 right now. That's not really that excessive.

And considering that the US has some of the lowest gas prices in the world (except places where it is heavily subsidized like Venezuela), I don't see how we're being "skinned alive."

BenjiBoy650

10-28-2005, 08:16 PM

And considering that the US has some of the lowest gas prices in the world (except places where it is heavily subsidized like Venezuela), I don't see how we're being "skinned alive."

Come on, you know better than this. In the US, all the profits go to the Oil Companies. Isn't that painfully obvious? You pointed out in the rest of the world, gas prices are regulated by the government. And where do you think the bulk of the $$$ goes in those cases? My guess? The government...

EXLNavi

10-29-2005, 05:15 AM

Come on, you know better than this. In the US, all the profits go to the Oil Companies. Isn't that painfully obvious? You pointed out in the rest of the world, gas prices are regulated by the government. And where do you think the bulk of the $$$ goes in those cases? My guess? The government...

And that's what makes America the great country that it is.

I would HATE free market competition to go away for ANYTHING. Anytime you put the Government in charge of something, they royally fsck it up. You live in California, I need not remind you of your energy crisis and Gray Davis.

Free markets work, and they work very well.

Besides that, who says that fuel prices aren't regulated by the Government?

Haven't you seen the amount of tax that they charge per gallon of gas?

Did you know that it is illegal in most states for gas stations to sell gasoline for a loss?

Did you know that full serve only laws in Oregon and New Jersey are there partially for price control reasons?

Did you know that Costco and Sam's cannot restrict gasoline sales to nonmembers in some states (New Jersey and a couple others)?

Do you know about IFTA?

All of this is an example of Government price control on fuel. Fuel is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the nation. Even with that, we're not a quasi-communist state like Venezuela (trust me, I've been there long enough to know) or an islamist theocracy like saudi arabia to undermine the free market and subsidize the price of gas. This is America, where free markets and competition rule. The price will go up and down with market forces. There is no way of stopping that in our economy.

BenjiBoy650

10-29-2005, 10:47 AM

Did you know that full serve only laws in Oregon and New Jersey are there partially for price control reasons?

Did you know that their prices are still much lower than the price in CA? :dunno: If that's what I can expect from price control, bring it on!

Of course, I'm blatantly ignoring other factors. I'm still wishing there would be a national standard, it would do good for us all. Gas prices would come down theoretically since the economies of scale are in effect (but being oil companies they'll go up because there was a change in the way that gas was made... :thumbsdow )

EXLNavi

10-29-2005, 11:05 AM

Did you know that their prices are still much lower than the price in CA? :dunno: If that's what I can expect from price control, bring it on!

Of course, I'm blatantly ignoring other factors.

Yes you are!

I spend most of my driving time in the Garden state.

OUr gas prices here are low because of less TAXES on gasoline. New Jersey has some of the lowest gasoline taxes in the nation.

How on EARTH do they get away with that? Why, they simply take it from other places - mostly tolls (NJ's two most popular highways - the NJ Turnpike and the GSP are toll roads) and property taxes.

I'm still wishing there would be a national standard, it would do good for us all. Gas prices would come down theoretically since the economies of scale are in effect (but being oil companies they'll go up because there was a change in the way that gas was made... :thumbsdow )

I would like to see everyone standardizing on a standard blend of gasoline. That would most likely make gas cheaper. But there is no way there can be a "national" price for gasoline. I'm willing to wager that most states will secede before the feds touch the price of gas.

brickman

11-01-2005, 07:59 PM

ExxonMobil just posted the largest profit ever by a US company...ever....in the history of the country. They saw a 75% increase over the previous quarter!!! That is HUGE! A 75% increase in profits over three months has nothing to do with supply and demand....I will never believe that! I have been driving a car for over 25 years. During that time there have been many hurricanes that hit the same area as did Katrina. I have NEVER seen the price of gas go up because a hurricane hit the Gulf until Katrina...NEVER! They did it because they could and for no other reason. We are not taking about durable goods that anyone can take or leave. If you sell leather jackets and you price them too high, no one buys them...no one HAS to buy them....it is not a necessity to own a leather jacket, it is a choice. While not everyone has to buy gas, many of us do...it IS a necessity for me...whether gas is $1.00/gallon or $10.00/gallon, I have to buy it, otherwise I lose my job. Where does supply and demand dictate price here? No matter what, I have to buy it. Now I can do less driving. I can stop driving on the weekends to my daughters track meet or I can stop driving with my son to a local restaurant on Sunday to watch a football game that is not on TV. So I sacrifice all my pleasures so the oil executives can get rich and I still spend more now on gas even though I am driving less that I did a year ago? And this is OK? NO WAY! This sucks!! The oil companies are charging these prices because they can and no amount of "less demand" is going to change that. This is a necessary item in our economy and when the price of an energy source increases the way gas has over the last few months, the potential for a recession or worse yet, a depression, is great. Someone, and I only see the government doing this, needs to regulate and the control the oil industry so this type of price gouging does not happen! The profits all the oil companies posted for the last quarter were obscene!

Can you tell I'm a Little pissed off! :thumbsdow

BenjiBoy650

11-01-2005, 08:04 PM

brickman

11-01-2005, 08:07 PM

Inspector1

11-01-2005, 08:15 PM

2.09 in Cincy today..

I1 :)

BenjiBoy650

11-01-2005, 08:17 PM

$2.59 here whewww haven't seen under 2.60 since my birthday.

EXLNavi

11-01-2005, 08:18 PM

Now I can do less driving. I can stop driving on the weekends to my daughters track meet or I can stop driving with my son to a local restaurant on Sunday to watch a football game that is not on TV. So I sacrifice all my pleasures so the oil executives can get rich and I still spend more now on gas even though I am driving less that I did a year ago? And this is OK? NO WAY! This sucks!!

So you're saying that the Government should step in and regulate the price of gas because the free market prices are getting in the way of your pleasures and luxuries?

I'm not sure I'm getting your logic.

I'll not mention AGAIN that we have some of the lowest gas prices in the world. Oh sure, there's cheaper gas in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait or Venezuela, but I'm sure you don't want the women here to wear beekeper suits and I'm sure yo udon't like the military shooting off warning shots every 2-3 days.

In Europe they are paying close to US$5/gallon for gas.

The very reason that we have low gas prices is because the Government does not intefere with free market competition. Economics 101.

I can almost guarantee that if the Government steps in and slaps price controls on gas that the gas supply will get even tighter, and the prices will go up even more. Surely, that's not what you're trying to achieve, now isn't it?

Regarding oil company profits, I showed figures that showed that profit percentages are about the same as before. Nothing has changed! And since when was it a crime in this country to make money? This is America, my friend. If you don't like the price of something, don't buy it! If you don't like the price of gas, find ways to use less. That works for me.

EXLNavi

11-01-2005, 08:20 PM

Oh yea...one more thing on this whole supply and demand argument...the huge last quarter profits that all the oil companies posted were almost all made on LESS gas sales by volume that the previous quarter. Sounds like less demand really makes the price go down...not quite sure how that works.

Again, profit percentages are the same, meaning their overhead costs were in proportion to their selling price for the products.

One explanation is that the price of oil was higher anyway. The revenue and profit numbers will be inflated as a result.

BenjiBoy650

11-01-2005, 08:21 PM

EXLNavi

11-01-2005, 08:32 PM

I knew you were gonna be able to come up with some BS like that. It's not that gas isn't cheap, it's that it's going towards someone I don't want it to go to. Hey BTW, profits already took into account overhead and such...

Here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051023/bs_nm/bizfeature_oil_dc) is an article you should read.

There is no grand conspiracy by "BIG OIL" to steal from the "poor man" at all. In fact, they've largely restrained themselves from passing on the higher price of energy to consumers:

Mid-quarter updates from oil majors like Chevron and ConocoPhillips (NYSE:COP - news) show they actually refrained from passing on the full impact of high energy costs to gasoline consumers immediately after the hurricanes, analysts say.

"They ate a lot of the costs of the gasoline price increases and took that as losses to avoid passing through really ridiculous price volatility," Paul Sankey of Deutsche Bank said.

As a result, margins from retail gasoline operations are likely to be substantially lower in the third quarter than in previous periods, Wall Street and the companies say.

Global market leader Exxon, which plans to report earnings next week, would not say how its retail margins have fared in the hurricanes' aftermath. In the past, it has said it makes a profit of a nickel on a gallon of gas.

Chief Executive Lee Raymond has also been quick to strike back against efforts to penalize oil companies, saying most of Exxon's profits come from overseas operations. In any case, no one called to help when oil prices fell precipitously to $10 a barrel in the late 1990s, he said.

"The question of how much money we should make -- profit is not a dirty word," Raymond told Fox News recently. "The reason we make the money we make is, number one, we sell in enormous volume."

And he's 100% correct. Oil companies' market is way bigger than the US alone. In fact the US only accounts for 25% of their market, I believe.

EXLNavi

11-01-2005, 08:36 PM

2.09 in Cincy today..

I1 :)

$2.45 in Roseland (NJ) today... Not making that much of a difference in my final gas bill, but at least it's coming down.

BenjiBoy650

11-01-2005, 08:43 PM

"The reason we make the money we make is, number one, we sell in enormous volume."

Sure, but like I said, they are still making way more than anyone should be entitled to. It doesn't come down to percentages, just raw hard numbers - and they are making more money than anybody else and that means it's coming from my pocket.

With the kind of cash reserves they have, they SHOULD NOT be passing their costs onto us...capitalistic or not.

The article mentions they should be seeing less profits in the third quarter - that's why ExxonMobil reports 75% increased profits over the last quarter, am I right? Did I miss something? Is the media brainwashing me? Or is it brainwashing you?

brickman

11-02-2005, 03:50 AM

Again, profit percentages are the same, meaning their overhead costs were in proportion to their selling price for the products.

One explanation is that the price of oil was higher anyway. The revenue and profit numbers will be inflated as a result.

It is interesting that you stayed away from the whole hurricane thing...hmmm...no opinion there...I'm surprised!?! You are right, there is no conspiracy, the oil companies are just raising prices because they can, not because they have to. And there is no supply and demand when the entire economy is dependent on the commodity. And just because we have some of the lowest prices around globe is no justification to raise them. If I had a viable alternative to a gas powered automobile, it would be a different story. You know Bush has tight ties to the oil industry, don't you.....think maybe they might know this...think maybe Bush might just leave them alone. No supply and demand in control here......just raise the price as soon as you get any excuse to do so.

psyshack

11-02-2005, 03:57 AM

paid $2.07 lastnight.

anysia

11-02-2005, 06:05 AM

i get to hear cnbc, cnn, bloomberg, etc news all day long due to where i work. every stinking day i sit there and listen to the "experts" talk about and argue about what cuased higher prices, who's making the money, etc.

it's bs that the oil co's are not making any higher of a profit margin than in the past.

they are.

get over it.

exl, seriously, you're arguing against everything that common sense tells you. it REALLY comes across as though you are still arguing to argue. do you really believe even half of the arguments you've been posinhg over the past few weeks???

EXLNavi

11-02-2005, 06:49 AM

I work in one of the top 10 of the fortune 500 in a financial company. I hear the same thing all day.

Math doesn't change. The percentages are still the same.

Sure, revenue and profit dollar values are up, because the price of the product went up due to market factors.

If you really want someone to blame, blame the Government for excessive taxation and legal hurdles for building more refineries.

Oh, and one more time - we are underpaying for gas in this country. NOt that I want the price to go up, but I am thankful that we have a free market to keep prices low.

Try going to Europe and buying gas.

But who am I kidding. I present the facts and all I seem to get in return are posts laced with emotion and personal attacks. "OMG the oil companies are raping us!! Oh noeesss!!!!!111!!11!1!ONE!1! How dare they make a profit!"

EXLNavi

11-02-2005, 07:00 AM

It is interesting that you stayed away from the whole hurricane thing...hummm...no opinion there...I'm surprised!?!

Ok, since you asked, I'll bite.

The hurricane destroyed well located refining capacity. Refining capacity nationwide is already maxed out.

There was LOTS of panic buying and many stations ran out of gas. There was an upsurge in demand and therefore the price went up as a result. That's not even advanced economics, that's what you learn in elementary school.

You are right, there is no conspiracy, the oil companies are just raising prices because they can, not because they have to.

Blatantly ignore the article about them absorbing some of the cost themselves, now will you?

Worldwide demand for oil is way up. Demand in the US has risen 25%! Americans are now driving more miles and there are more cars on the road. Don't you think that has to account for at least some of it?

And there is no supply and demand when the entire economy is dependent on the commodity. And just because we have some of the lowest prices around globe is no justification to raise them. If I had a viable alternative to a gas powered automobile, it would be a different story. You know Bush has tight ties to the oil industry, don't you.....think maybe they might know this...think maybe Bush might just leave them alone. No supply and demand in control here......just raise the price as soon as you get any excuse to do so.

Why not? If the rest of the world raises the price of gas, why can't we?

I don't care that Bush has tight ties to the oil industry. If he was really interested in helping "BIG OIL" he should knock down environmental regs so that they can build more refineries.

Again, where are your facts and statistics to back this up? The anecdotal evidence and grand conspiracy theory isn't quite cutting it.

BTW, I'm no big fan of Bush. But that's no big secret, really.

EXLNavi

11-02-2005, 07:12 AM

Again, the facts -

The company has a market capitalization of $358,380,000,000.

If the $8.7 billion quarterly profit remains consistent for 4 quarters in a row, that would amount to $34.8 billion in profit. That's not even 10% of market capitalization!

Not excessive in any manner whatsoever.

anysia

11-02-2005, 07:30 AM

got stock in oil co's? :dunno:

need to blow steam off? :blah:

may i suggest a punching bag??

:nuts:

these rants only serve to make you more aggravated, frustrated, etc. you need a time out. a vacation as posted earlier. something. anything.

EXLNavi

11-02-2005, 07:41 AM

princess

11-02-2005, 08:55 AM

Living where oil is pumped & refineries are I don't want any loosening of the enviromental regs!! They're slack enough. There's ways to make it & do it safely for all of us!!

Although the hurricanes are one of many things that have raised prices, they're not the cause.

Does anyone think that maybe the oil being used in the war may be counted as what we're using? I can't think of anyone driving more over the past year. If the jet fuel & stuff over there has been tallied with US's use, then of course it'll be higher!

Since the people in finance, politics & the media have been trying to figure all this out for a long time, I don't think any of us will have the answers. Quoted "facts" or not.

Ryan, this statement That's not even advanced economics, that's what you learn in elementary school. is on the verge of insulting! I know you're an intelligent person & I bet you can make your point without politely telling the ones that disagree that we're stupid! We may never really know why the prices keep rising for sure. In the meantime, lets disagree on our thoughts as to the problems are nicely. :grouphug:

stiller fan

11-02-2005, 09:08 AM

EXLNavi

11-02-2005, 09:09 AM

Living where oil is pumped & refineries are I don't want any loosening of the enviromental regs!! They're slack enough. There's ways to make it & do it safely for all of us!!

That one was sarcastic. However, the increase in the cost of building a refinery is directly tied into the increased cost of complying with environmental regulations.

Although the hurricanes are one of many things that have raised prices, they're not the cause.

Panic buying and resultant shortages were responsible for the prices. Not necessarily the hurricanes themselves. In other words, market trends.

Does anyone think that maybe the oil being used in the war may be counted as what we're using? I can't think of anyone driving more over the past year. If the jet fuel & stuff over there has been tallied with US's use, then of course it'll be higher!

Definitely. But a recent survey did say that people are driving more miles, and with a definite the increase in the number of vehicles on the road, I'd say we're consuming more.

Developing countries such as China and India are consuming more oil.

Worldwide demand for oil is up. So I'd say combination of factors.

Since the people in finance, politics & the media have been trying to figure all this out for a long time, I don't think any of us will have the answers. Quoted "facts" or not.

No one will know the truth. All I was doing was referencing the current situations with past trends. And it seems to be consistent.

In other words, all I am saying is that nothing has changed. That's all.

Ryan, this statement is on the verge of insulting! I know you're an intelligent person & I bet you can make your point without politely telling the ones that disagree that we're stupid! We may never really know why the prices keep rising for sure. In the meantime, lets disagree on our thoughts as to the problems are nicely. :grouphug:

It was really not intended to tell anyone that they're stupid. If anyone feels that way, please accept my apologies.

Anyway, the comment was made because many of these "the oil companies are screwing us over" threads all over the place are made entirely with emotion and with no reference whatsoever to any facts.

Why? Because the facts almost always disprove any conspiracy theory put forth.

Then when I put forward the facts, I get accused of having stock in oil cos or being paid off. Ironically, at this time I'm actually kicking myself for not investing in energy futures because they would have really paid off well.

So I'm not calling anyone stupid. I am saying that the issue should be approached with the facts, not just with emotion.

Anyway, I am not in favor of any Government regulation for gasoline prices because I feel that this will drive prices even higher. The mostly free market drives down prices, because the consumer is the one with choosing and buying power.

The Government cannot subsidize gasoline directly because it will impact general Government expenditure and more expenditure means more taxes. I don't want more taxes. I pay enough as it is. I'd rather pay at the pump than pay the IRS. I don't want to subsidize anyone's gasoline consumption. You want to consume? Pay up. Don't burden the taxpayers with your consumption.

The biggest reason to say NO to Government price controls/regulation on gasoline is because they have an absolutely atrocious record of regulating and managing anything. Things are better with the Government's hands out of it.

princess

11-02-2005, 09:24 AM

EXLNavi

11-02-2005, 09:38 AM

For some of us blaming the oil companies is better than blaming the government or ourselves. If it's your gas card you're grumbling about paying off each month, then it's naturally going to be the gas company taking your wrath. Just human nature.

I blamed our electric comapny when our bills got really high over night a couple of years ago. In truth it was our then governor that had made stupid deals with Enron & the others. I still blame the electric company. They're they ones that delivered the bad news!

If we look at too many factors, it's hard to put the blame in a focused area. So blaming the oil companies is way easier than figuring it all out!! So when we're at Chevron & it's chinging up those dollars for a fill up.... they're going to be the ones at fault.

I agree with you, that's why I say emotion causes people to do these things.

But I get scared when people start calling for things like Government price controls on gasoline. Price controls hurt, they don't help. It's very easy to look at one piece of the picture and ignore the rest, which is what I think people are doing.

The piece they look at is the "record profits" by the oil companies which have been sensationalized in the media.

The part they ignore is the other factors, such as the cost and legal hurdles the companies face in order to bring the supply in line to where there is a comfortable margin between supply and demand. You hardly hear about that in the media because it doesn't make good news and doesn't help ratings.

It can take as much as 15 years to finish building a refinery, because of all the lawsuits by environmental groups and people who don't want them in their back yards. (The NIMBY folks). It can't be done overnight.

So honestly I think everyone in the private industry is doing the best they can.

I do believe that the Government is over-taxing gasoline. That needs to be addressed first, but I don't think that's likely.

psyshack

11-02-2005, 10:26 AM

Reg. Unleaded $2.06 per. gal. today in Okmulgee, Ok.

China is indeed consuming fuels at the highist rate in there history. So is the USA.

I remember 15 years ago when I was in the oil biz. I was selling Oklhoma sweet crude at $7.00 a barrell and barley making enough to keep pumping the wells. And folks where bitching about gas prices then. when I started it was $27.00 a barrell. I had to shut down in the end, set on 1000 barrells of oil and sell when the prices came back up. Everybody forgets when the producers and refiners where going under.

The cost of production has went through the roof. Steel pipe has went up 100% in the last year. Bronze ie yellow metals have went up more than that. Ins. issues law suites. And to top it off,, oil has been over $60.00 per barrell. I guess with all the whinning and griping about gas and fuel costs in general its the oil companys fault we use it like water.

If you cant afford to drive, move closer to work, get a job closer to home. Or ride share. Wife and I live out of Tulsa 40 miles we ran two cars aday to Tulsa. When fuel was cheap we drank more than our share. Now that its went way up we had to change something. We ride in togather and found out we enjoyed it and saved a ton of money. I guess thats the oil companys fault e made a bad move in our life moving out of the metro into a small town. I dont think so.

Its not cheap to pump, refine and transport oil and fuel. It cost a bloody fortune. Ive seen rolls of toilet paper sell for $25.00 a roll! Well maint. down hole parts, wireline work, fracing, shooting a well all cost big bucks. All this has to be done on a well producing 1 barrell per day or one producing 5k barrells per hour.

When you can come up with 100k and take your stab at the patch,, let me know. Then you have earned a right to complain. And theres no quarntie your going to make money. NONE!!!

This thread has been so whinny,, big oils raping us. Dont buy the stuff if you cant play.

brickman

11-02-2005, 11:48 AM

The hurricane destroyed well located refining capacity.
And this has never happened prior to this hurricane? I have never seen prices increase due to a hurricane in the gulf prior to Katrina.

There was LOTS of panic buying and many stations ran out of gas. There was an upsurge in demand and therefore the price went up as a result. That's not even advanced economics, that's what you learn in elementary school.
Prices in this area went up substantially before the hurricane even hit...I never saw any lines for gas until after that point. Seems the oil companies pushed that panic buying...no facts, just my opinion.

Blatantly ignore the article about them absorbing some of the cost themselves, now will you?

Worldwide demand for oil is way up. Demand in the US has risen 25%! Americans are now driving more miles and there are more cars on the road. Don't you think that has to account for at least some of it?
I have to find where I saw this piece of info but I saw somewhere that the actual volume consumption of gas for the third quarter was lower than the previous quarter. Doesn't sound like increased demand to me.

Why not? If the rest of the world raises the price of gas, why can't we?
A couple of words come to mind "monopoly" and maybe "collusion". It just seems strange to me that every gas station in a given area basically charges the same amount for gas. They go up and down in price together and not as a response to each others price change. There is no "free market" for this item...I have to ask again...how can there be "supply and demand" when we as a public have no choice in the matter...no alternative

I don't care that Bush has tight ties to the oil industry.
That statement just scares me!

Ryan, this statement
Quote:
That's not even advanced economics, that's what you learn in elementary school.

is on the verge of insulting! I know you're an intelligent person & I bet you can make your point without politely telling the ones that disagree that we're stupid! We may never really know why the prices keep rising for sure. In the meantime, lets disagree on our thoughts as to the problems are nicely.
Thanks for the concern Princess, but I can take it...it is only one man's opinion.

brickman

11-02-2005, 12:09 PM

This thread has been so whinny,, big oils raping us. Dont buy the stuff if you cant play.

Show me a viable alternative to gas and I will buy it! Show me my choice....I just don't see another. :dunno:

EXLNavi

11-02-2005, 01:22 PM

And this has never happened prior to this hurricane? I have never seen prices increase due to a hurricane in the gulf prior to Katrina.

Maybe because -

- a category 5 hasn't hit the gulf in recent history.

- Refinery capacity wasn't maxed out as it is now

Historical gas prices, and how they relate to world events:

http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/zFacts-Gasoline-Price.gif

Prices in this area went up substantially before the hurricane even hit...I never saw any lines for gas until after that point. Seems the oil companies pushed that panic buying...no facts, just my opinion.

Gas prices only hit above $3/gallon after the hurricane. They were climbing due to other factors before. Also, gasoline is a publicly traded commodity. The price will go up or down depending on market factors.

I have to find where I saw this piece of info but I saw somewhere that the actual volume consumption of gas for the third quarter was lower than the previous quarter. Doesn't sound like increased demand to me.

This isn't a Q3 '05 thing. Oil consumption has been steadily increasing for quite a while now.

A couple of words come to mind "monopoly" and maybe "collusion". It just seems strange to me that every gas station in a given area basically charges the same amount for gas. They go up and down in price together and not as a response to each others price change. There is no "free market" for this item...I have to ask again...how can there be "supply and demand" when we as a public have no choice in the matter...no alternative

Gas station owners have NO CONTROL over the price of gas. Their margins are already tightly controlled. State law forbids selling gasoline below cost in most places. Chains and franchises (BP, Shell etc) have restricted margins set by the corporate HQ. The price the owners pay for gas is the price on the day/time it's delivered. They have no control over this.

And yes, it's very much a free market here in the US because in other countries (like the one I lived in) the gas price is set by the GOVERNMENT in the national budget and does not go down with market forces. The Government already taxes the living bejeezus out of gasoline, do you really think that if they had control of the price they'd let it go down?

Again, we have some of the lowest gas prices in the world, and that's largely thanks to the free market. I'd like it to stay that way, thanks.

That statement just scares me!

Doesn't matter. There still is no grand conspiracy by "BIG OIL". Bush or not, oil consumption is still on the rise, and it is likely to continue that way unless people start driving less or we find some viable alternative fuel.

EXLNavi

11-02-2005, 01:27 PM

One thing I noticed was that the price of gas went DOWN after 9/11.

Maybe, just maybe, could it be that airlines were not using fuel as much as before and as a result demand for oil was less, and the free market adjusted?

brickman

11-02-2005, 01:58 PM

EXLNavi

11-02-2005, 02:29 PM

How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?

Maybe if I just keep saying it someone will hear me.....

How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

Maybe I'm just imagining all of the brand name gas stations around here, as well as independent dealers with mostly different prices for gas. :dunno:

What exactly do you want?

MichNYC

11-02-2005, 02:57 PM

stevel

11-02-2005, 03:03 PM

How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?

Maybe if I just keep saying it someone will hear me.....

How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:
supply and demand because YOU choose to buy or not buy a more fuel efficient car. YOU choose wether or not to limit your driving. do you have a choice to you it or not? nope. but you do have to choice to use less of it, therefore reducing the demand if others do it also of course.

princess

11-02-2005, 03:53 PM

The graph seems off a bit.... it didn't do over a dollar till the 80's. We were paying .65 for Mobil in Nov. 77. It was a record at the time. I only remember it since my prince was in Korea & I got the kid a the gas station to pump it for me at the self serv island. I was feeding the '67 Olds 442 & my measly gas funds had to last the 2 months he was gone. We lived on base at Beale AFB & the nearest town was Marysville, 20 miles away. I tried to stay in town after church on Sundays so I didn't waste the gas returning for a Sunday night service. Weird the little things we remember! :D

It rained a lot that Winter.... I had to wade to the car barefoot to load the kids up for church...Brandon was 18 months & Eric 6 weeks. But that's a whole 'nuther story....... :paranoid:

As Honda owners feel like we have done most that we can to ease the "supply & demand" issue. We drive cars that get decent mileage. So most would be like I have been..... looking blankly & saying "what else CAN I do?".

After 9-11 we were told to "roll" & we did!! :lmao: We started flying again, we started driving again. We started buying again.

Us, in the 'burbs, can't hop on a bus or rail for work. We gotta drive so we can eat. So here we bought pretty fuel efficient cars & still we here we're using too much!!

So we're stuck paying out a big chunk of those hard earned paychecks to whoever gets it when were at the pumps. Of course we're gonna be bitter!! I can always tell when my prince had to fill his Pilot's tank....grumble grumble grumble..... :yes:

Government regulating scares me....they're too stupid. They can't balance their own check book, I don't want them in mine!! :D

EXLNavi

11-02-2005, 05:53 PM

Its supply and demand only to the extent that barrels of oil are traded, in a commodities market that works like the stock exchange. The price of oil can only go as high as companies are willing to pay. For us, as consumers, and the price at the pump, its not so much about supply and demand, because we don't have other, viable fuel alternatives. At the consumer level, prices are determined much more by the oil companies, and are only slightly influenced by supply and demand, as the cost per barrel of oil is only one of the factors oil companies look at when setting prices.

Not entirely true, since the retail price of gasoline is affected by other factors and not just the price of oil.

Supply and demand do affect retail gasoline, maybe not exactly like other consumer goods, but they do affect them nonetheless.

(P.S. - Ryan, your argument only works if we all buy in to the idea that capitalism is the ideal economic system, and that what exists on the worldwide commodities market is a true, capitalistic, free-market system. I'm not sure I agree with either of those suppositions. :lmao: )

Not necessarily. The US is the single largest user of oil in the entire world. We have the largest influence on our own gas prices. Other countries have state owned corporations that run every aspect of the operation.

I never did think that US consumers were solely responsible for higher gas prices. I just don't think that there is any grand conspiracy by "BIG OIL" to raise prices, like some people are implying. :paranoid:

I lived under regulated gasoline prices for years. Stations were owned by private individuals but the gas supply was from a state owned corporation. Every year the price went up, because the Government raised it in the budget. Our prices were on par with US prices but never lower. Government regulation kept it stable, but kept the price HIGH because it never would fluctuate with market demand. And this was for dirty, leaded gasoline, which was much cheaper than the unleaded, oxygenated blends we see today in the US.

MichNYC

11-02-2005, 06:20 PM

Not entirely true, since the retail price of gasoline is affected by other factors and not just the price of oil.

Supply and demand do affect retail gasoline, maybe not exactly like other consumer goods, but they do affect them nonetheless.

Gasoline is considered, economically speaking, to be an inelastic product. Which means (for those who aren't economics experts or teachers) that the price does not fluctuate greatly with supply and demand. All items that are classified as necessities are inelastic. This is because there are no (or very few) viable substitutes for necessities.

If the price of milk goes up, demand doesn't change, supply doesn't change - the market maintains itself at an equilibrium point, where supply equals demand; the only people who benefit from that price increase are the dairy farmers, or those who process the milk. If milk was $5/gallon, most of us would still buy milk, and probably in the same quantity that we do now.

However, if the price of butter goes up, demand will drop significantly. This is because butter is elastic, due to the existence of a very easily accessible substitute - margarine. People will shift their buying power to margarine if the price of butter gets too high.

Gas is like milk - as the price increased, we didn't see a huge drop in demand, and the market has remained at equilibrium (except in the disaster-stricken regions where there were panic-induced gas shortages). If there HAD been a drop in demand, then following basic economic principles, the price would have come back down until the market was back in equilibrium.

The effect of supply and demand on gasoline pricing is negligible. As you pointed out, the stations themselves have little to no control over pricing - its REGULATED by.... BIG OIL, through margin requirements, etc. And the Big Oil companies are selling gas to their franchise stations at a PROFIT. So Big Oil does, in fact, have a large influence on the pricing of gas.

Is it really better for the regulation of pricing to come from the industry itself rather than the government? Maybe, if the industry is honest and stuff. But if, as true capitalists, they're out to make a profit no matter the cost, how does that help the consumer?

Not necessarily. The US is the single largest user of oil in the entire world. We have the largest influence on our own gas prices. Other countries have state owned corporations that run every aspect of the operation.

I never did think that US consumers were solely responsible for higher gas prices. I just don't think that there is any grand conspiracy by "BIG OIL" to raise prices, like some people are implying. :paranoid:

Just so I'm clear - are you arguing that OPEC is not a cartel, and does not artificially inflate oil prices simply for profit? And that the artificial inflation of oil prices (and the random control of access to the oil supply - increasing or decreasing daily output seemingly on a whim) does not get directly transferred to the consumers of all petroleum products world-wide? (And yes, I'm aware that Big Oil is not OPEC, but the two are pretty closely linked!)

brickman

11-02-2005, 07:05 PM

EXLNavi

11-02-2005, 07:46 PM

Gasoline is considered, economically speaking, to be an inelastic product. Which means (for those who aren't economics experts or teachers) that the price does not fluctuate greatly with supply and demand. All items that are classified as necessities are inelastic. This is because there are no (or very few) viable substitutes for necessities.

If the price of milk goes up, demand doesn't change, supply doesn't change - the market maintains itself at an equilibrium point, where supply equals demand; the only people who benefit from that price increase are the dairy farmers, or those who process the milk. If milk was $5/gallon, most of us would still buy milk, and probably in the same quantity that we do now.

However, if the price of butter goes up, demand will drop significantly. This is because butter is elastic, due to the existence of a very easily accessible substitute - margarine. People will shift their buying power to margarine if the price of butter gets too high.

Gas is like milk - as the price increased, we didn't see a huge drop in demand, and the market has remained at equilibrium (except in the disaster-stricken regions where there were panic-induced gas shortages). If there HAD been a drop in demand, then following basic economic principles, the price would have come back down until the market was back in equilibrium.

The effect of supply and demand on gasoline pricing is negligible.

I was agreeing with you a bit until the last part.

Supply and demand HAS affected the price of gas, but mostly over the long term.

In the long term, gasoline becomes a largely elastic commodity.

In fact, even in short term situations, gasoline does show itself to be largely elastic. Memorial day and other travel holidays see a rise in the prices. More demand and the supply remains the same. They rise, but they go back down after that time because demand goes back to normal.

Panic buying due to Katrina caused prices to go up. Consumers didn't panic buy as much with Rita, so prices remained stable and even dropped a little.

And one more thing - higher prices have caused gasoline to take on a more elastic persona. People are actually looking at ways to reduce their use of gasoline, whether it be carpooling, transit or telecommuting. Many people in my office started telecommuting because of the high price of gas. (unfortunately, I can't do that as often as they do. :( ) Demand dropped significantly, and prices are following, although admittedly a bit slowly.

As you pointed out, the stations themselves have little to no control over pricing - its REGULATED by.... BIG OIL, through margin requirements, etc. And the Big Oil companies are selling gas to their franchise stations at a PROFIT. So Big Oil does, in fact, have a large influence on the pricing of gas.

This is true only for franchised gas stations, not independents.

Is it really better for the regulation of pricing to come from the industry itself rather than the government? Maybe, if the industry is honest and stuff. But if, as true capitalists, they're out to make a profit no matter the cost, how does that help the consumer?

Gasoline price regulation by the Government will never work. Refiners will simply export their gasoline rather than sell it at a loss in the USA. There will be shortages, gas lines, and rationing, because selling gasoline in the US will no longer be a profitable business. It will end up hurting the economy and consumers instead of helping them.

And again, we come to this whole question of honesty. Is the industry honest? Hmm... They are publicly traded companies. Gasoline and oil are publicly traded commodities. Everything is out in the open. I don't trust them 100% but I really don't believe in a grand conspiracy. (Yes, I am aware that publicly traded companies have been involved in scandals, but they have been people stealing from the company, not from consumers, and many of these people are now headed straight to jail...)

The notion that gasoline retailers and oil companies are in collusion to raise prices is an urban legend. Prices vary from station to station. Within my local work area, less than 2 miles apart I can find two Exxon stations that are 20 cents different. Sometimes one is higher than the other, and other times the reverse is true. Sometimes they are equal.

The reason prices may be equal is because of the way gasoline is priced. The price you pay is the price on the day/time that the gas is delivered, not from the time it leaves the refinery. And yes, gas stations may have margins to abide by, but that doesn't mean there is no choice. Independent dealers don't have any such restrictions from the oil companies. They can sell gas for whatever price they want, subject to applicable state law (i.e. many states prohibit gas stations from selling at a loss) and ironically they were among the first to raise their prices post-katrina. "BIG OIL" gas stations remained consistent until the gas ran out and they took their next delivery from the tank wagon.

Furthermore, the historical figures I have shown in previous posts do show that profits are in line with what they normally are. In fact, the oil industry's profits are actually less than those of other industries.

Just so I'm clear - are you arguing that OPEC is not a cartel, and does not artificially inflate oil prices simply for profit? And that the artificial inflation of oil prices (and the random control of access to the oil supply - increasing or decreasing daily output seemingly on a whim) does not get directly transferred to the consumers of all petroleum products world-wide? (And yes, I'm aware that Big Oil is not OPEC, but the two are pretty closely linked!)

OPEC has nothing to do with it. Yes, I am aware that OPEC does artificially control prices, but my argument is that it has nothing to do with a grand conspiracy by "BIG OIL" to screw over the US consumer.

In fact, OPEC countries have increased production in response to US requests to do so.

But does OPEC really have that much of an influence in the US market? I don't think so. Right now most of our crude has been domestic. We really don't import that much oil, at least not enough to have a significant impact (although some sources like Al-Jazeera would disagree... :lmao: )

Historically, attempts at regulating the price of fossil fuel has not fared very well.

Twice during the 70's, artificial basements in prices were created, and twice those artificial barriers created higher fuel costs (much, much higher, actually).

Any time we create artificial barriers on a commodity like fuel, it is regressive in nature. It hurts the lowest class the most, and will put a heavy burden on them across the nation, for absolutely no good reason.

psyshack

11-02-2005, 08:03 PM

Show me a viable alternative to gas and I will buy it! Show me my choice....I just don't see another. :dunno:

Change your life style??? Have to drive to far in for work??? MOVE closer to work. Or get a job closer to home. Just dont buy the stuff. If you base a chunk of your life on the price of gas you have really screwed up bad.

Wife and I are riding into Tulsa together now. We are not running two cars 80 to 130 miles a day each anymore. That alone has cut our fuel bill better than half and we arent wearing out two cars at 28k miles each a year. We are prepairing to buy a civic. Will be a Si more than likely. Even it will get better mpg than the Ranger.

If we cant commute to Tulsa anymore so be it. Our house isnt the best. But its paided for. Im not going to put myself in a positon that I have to depend on fuel cost as a factor in my life or what Im going to do for a living.

We burn more fuel in the US than anybody else in the world. Then whine when we are the pig causing some of the problem.

At work our company trucks are all half ton gas guzzlers. If I have to go over to ,,, say ,,, Wal-Mart world headquarters in Bentonville to help the over educated idiots fig. out why the system isnt working and there servers are going down. ( Its always the pumps fault ) i have to drive that damn chevy truck over with no need for such a rig at all!! Ive begged them to buy us afew civics or accords. hell chevy cobalts. We dont need to be running the trucks like we do. As the owner and bean counter are whining about fuel cost.

I dont like to see high fuel prices. Its not going to ruin or even really upset the wife's and my life. It bothers us to see our children struggle. There doing the collage thing, young family thing, trying to stake there first claims in life. But they will learn valuble things. They call all the time with stuff like, " God milks high, no wonder you all made us take vit. D and calciam." Now more than ever they know why I made them learn how to change the oil and filters in there cars. Yes my girls can turn a wrench.

I dont see anybody in here ranting about the price of pharmacuticals, clothing, furniture, insurance. All of which are even higher profit margins than fuel.

I know,, the cure to the problem,,, get big goverment in big oil. That will fix it right up <<< where do they come from. ( shaking head )

brickman

11-03-2005, 03:53 AM

Change your life style??? Have to drive to far in for work??? MOVE closer to work. Or get a job closer to home. Just dont buy the stuff. If you base a chunk of your life on the price of gas you have really screwed up bad.

And this will save me money?? Spend several thousands of dollars now to save $10 or $20 a week. Look...I'm not saying I'm going broke buying gas but what I am saying is that the oil companies certainly have a say in what the cost of their product is and you won't ever convince me that some of the huge price increase we just saw wasn't due to the oil companies exploiting a situation that benefited them. As I said before, when you take a product so entwined into the economy as gas (and don't forget about the 40% increase in natural gas we are supposed to see) and raise the price of it by 50% basically overnight, many people who need time to adjust don't have it, discretionary spending stops and the economy suffers.

ExxonMobil made almost 10 billion dollars in three months....10 billion! I don't think some people realize how much money this is...it is huge...I don't care about percentages being the same. The fact remains this was profit...all the bills were paid, all the employees were paid and they still put 10 billion to the bottom line. When company A has sales of $1,000 and makes a profit of $100, that is not the same as company B that has sales of $100,000,000,000 and makes $10,000,000,000....sorry but company B is in a whole different situation than company A. I can't even enter the number 100,000,000,000 on my calculator.....I really don't think some people realize how much money that is....the oil companies could have gone a little slower with the increases and maybe only made 5 billion....but I guess that's too small a percentage.

anysia

11-03-2005, 06:48 AM

anysia

11-03-2005, 06:52 AM

EXLNavi

11-03-2005, 06:52 AM

ExxonMobil made almost 10 billion dollars in three months....10 billion! I don't think some people realize how much money this is...it is huge...I don't care about percentages being the same. The fact remains this was profit...all the bills were paid, all the employees were paid and they still put 10 billion to the bottom line. When company A has sales of $1,000 and makes a profit of $100, that is not the same as company B that has sales of $100,000,000,000 and makes $10,000,000,000....sorry but company B is in a whole different situation than company A. I can't even enter the number 100,000,000,000 on my calculator.....I really don't think some people realize how much money that is....the oil companies could have gone a little slower with the increases and maybe only made 5 billion....but I guess that's too small a percentage.

Firstly, let me draw your attention to this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/27/AR2005102700449.html?sub=AR) Washington Post article, where we can get some facts and figures.

10 billion dollars sounds like a fantastic amount, but the oil companies aren't really making that much per dollar of sales. Compare to a few other industries -

Exxon Mobil - 9.8 cents/dollar
McDonald's Corp. - 13.8 cents/dollar
Coca-Cola Co. - 21.2 cents/dollar

If you break down the profits into actual products, retail gasoline isn't even a blip on their radar. $7.3 billion from production, natural-gas and power-marketing business. Refining, distribution and marketing earned $2.1 billion. Exxon Mobil's chemical business brought in $472 million.

$2.1 billion for retail gasoline (among other things) isn't an awful lot of money.

If you want to take aim at someone for the rising price of gas, try the Government. They've been taxing the hell out of gasoline (yet somehow our roads don't seem to get fixed...) for years now.

EXLNavi

11-03-2005, 07:07 AM

ps~being forced to change your lifestyle because of the cost of gas is bad.

however, i think more people are more concerned about the inflating gas prices simply because of the rate of inflation and the reasons why-not because they cannot afford to fill up their gas tank any more.

Adjusted for inflation, gas isn't going up all that much.

Texas gas prices, adjusted for inflation in April, 1979 dollars:

http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.png

princess

11-03-2005, 08:17 AM

hermann

11-03-2005, 08:55 AM

Regular unleaded $1.99 today at a few stations in Kansas City area. :banana: :thmsup: :dunno: :paranoid:

brickman

11-03-2005, 08:56 AM

The problem with comparing McDonald's or Coke companies is that they are not necessities! If a coke or burger goes up, I don't HAVE to change my life.... if gas goes up I do.

This has been my point all along...i don't have to buy a coke or a McDonald's burger but...and this is a big but...I have to buy gas....even if I cut back, I still HAVE to buy it.

EXLNavi

11-03-2005, 09:18 AM

The problem with comparing McDonalds or Coke companies is that they are nessecities! If a coke or burger goes up, I don't HAVE to change my life.... if gas goes up I do.

Even I have been driving gently lately... it bores me to death. I now hate doing errands & driving my car!! I am now at 20 mpg in town though. I"ll be going out again today & have had about as much of the soft foot as I can stand! I'll have much lower mpg when I come home! :naughty:

It's not that gas is making me go broke....it's that there's less to put in here! And we all have out priorities!!! :lmao:

That's the beauty of a truly free market - necessities aren't traded that differently from non-necessities.

But let's see a few more necessities (Yes, I know the graph is from an oil company website):

http://www.conocophillips.com/NR/rdonlyres/913F0601-03DA-432D-86C2-E439DAB0BB87/0/OilProfitsVsOtherIndust3rdQ2004Revised.gif

These are Q3 2004 figures, but look at how many other industries, including necessities like healthcare, pharmaceuticals and the financial industry make. They make way more per dollar than the oil industry.

MichNYC

11-03-2005, 09:27 AM

MichNYC

11-03-2005, 09:32 AM

These are Q3 2004 figures, but look at how many other industries, including necessities like healthcare, pharmaceuticals and the financial industry make. They make way more per dollar than the oil industry.

Since when is the financial industry a "necessity"? I have a choice how to invest my money, and what company to invest it with. There are viable alternatives. Healthcare - sure, I need it, but I can choose my providers, I can seek second opinions. The pharmaceutical industry is another one that engages in artificial price inflation and creates monopolies, so its hardly a fair comparison. For medicines that have generics available - i.e. viable alternatives - the prices are low. For other medicines, we see inelastic demand. Now you're really arguing apples to oranges....

princess

11-03-2005, 09:32 AM

EXLNavi

11-03-2005, 09:42 AM

Ryan, I'm not going to keep arguing with you, because I'm starting to think Val is right and you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, or so hell-bent on being "right" that you can't fathom that someone else is making a good point.

Gas is inelastic. Period. Every economics class I've ever taken (and thats a lot of them) has said so. Every economics textbook I have to teach from has said so. Even the newspaper articles I looked up last night said so, when I was trying to find a graph of the gasoline demand curve to post in here. I only found one article that said anything to the contrary, and it said "gas may be *slightly* more elastic than economists previously believed." But it is generally accepted that gas is inelastic, both in the short term and the long term.

Second, to quote any major news organization as "fact" is misleading at best. Articles reflect the bias of the writer. Show me any article that has "facts" that support your opinion, and I can find one with "facts" to support mine. The articles provide information, which all of us educated people can use to help influence our opinions and perspectives. But its rarely fact.

I did say that gas is inelastic. I did say that it still has some elastic properties.

Supply and demand, whether actual or projected, does affect pricing, whether it be seasonal or over the long term.

And I never quote articles as facts. The articles do contain facts in them, readily accessible instead of digging through portfolios and the like. (Show me where I quoted any article as a fact, and I'll gladly apologize.)

Speaking of the media, much of the misinformation about oil company profits and the "screwing over" of the American population by "BIG OIL" has been largely caused by the media. Sensationalist reporting, and opinions, the very thing you are complaining about. People get emotional about this issue because it directly affects their consumption. The media fuels this emotion because they know it will sell news.

But economic principles are really not why I am concerned about gas price regulation.

I've lived under regulated gasoline pricing for over 20 years. In fact I've lived under regulated pricing for quite a lot of things, including car parts and telecommunications. It did nothing for the consumers because people were still whining about the high price of gas, and often lashing out at the Government for not letting the free market decide, like they do in more industrialized countries like the United States.

The only place where I've seen first hand where regulated pricing has made consumers happy is in Venezuela. But in Venezuela the Government subsidizes their prices so deeply it's almost as if the Government is paying for gas. If we were to do that here, with our consumption, we'd have to raise taxes. And I'm not ready to pay more than I already do to subsidize someone else's gas bill.

The fact is that Government regulation historically never was and will not ever be good for the consumers. Period.

So again I ask, what do you people want? I haven't heard one answer to that question. If you complain, suggest something that's better than a free market.

EXLNavi

11-03-2005, 09:50 AM

Since when is the financial industry a "necessity"? I have a choice how to invest my money, and what company to invest it with. There are viable alternatives.

If the financial industry stops dead in its tracks, I can guarantee you that everything will stop cold.

It's much bigger than you investing your money. It's more than just investment - it runs the entire gamut from banking to credit to stocks, bonds and the like.

It's a necessity in the world we live in. So much that Governments rely heavily on investors for revenue (and I don't mean taxes).

Healthcare - sure, I need it, but I can choose my providers, I can seek second opinions.

And you can't do that with gasoline now?

The pharmaceutical industry is another one that engages in artificial price inflation and creates monopolies, so its hardly a fair comparison. For medicines that have generics available - i.e. viable alternatives - the prices are low. For other medicines, we see inelastic demand. Now you're really arguing apples to oranges....

Generics cost less because the companies manufacturing them do not have to spend money on research like big name pharmaceutical companies. And not all drugs have generics yet. They have to wait until patents expire.

When I worked at one of the big name pharmaceutical companies, I saw them spending lots of time and money in clinical trials for new drugs that were being developed.

They have huge facilities with many researchers. There were times we had to deal with literally thousands of users at a time on one single site. This stuff costs money. R&D isn't cheap. It's a huge one time cost per product and a small maintenance amount that has to be recouped.

EXLNavi

11-03-2005, 09:53 AM

Well, we also feel ripped off by healthcare, pharmaceuticals, banks, insurance co., etc..... so why should we feel any different about oil companies!?

In therory the pharmaceuticals reinvest in research for better meds. Healthcare reinvests in better testing equiptment. Banks reinvest in the community.

But princess, I've seen similar comments targeted towards pharmaceutical companies, that they're ripping off people etc.

The bottom line is that when you're big business, you can never win. :dunno:

When you follow true to the principles of libertarianism, many times you can't win either... :lmao:

anysia

11-03-2005, 09:57 AM

But princess, I've seen similar comments targeted towards pharmaceutical companies, that they're ripping off people etc.

The bottom line is that when you're big business, you can never win. :dunno:

when you're a big business, you can win.

when you create monopolies, you loose.

the bigger the business is and the less competition there is=the potential for monopolies to form.

EXLNavi

11-03-2005, 10:00 AM

when you're a big business, you can win.

when you create monopolies, you loose.

the bigger the business is and the less competition there is=the potential for monopolies to form.

There is more than one place to buy gas, and the price varies around town, even. There is no monopoly!

Don't believe me? Head over to http://www.madisongasprices.com/

Highest is $2.51 and the lowest is $2.28. Don't tell me there aren't options for getting cheaper gas, because there are.

anysia

11-03-2005, 10:23 AM

3 main gas stations in town-mobil, bp, and pdq.

the general area i travel in was at 2.41 on my way to work this morning. some have apparently gone down to 2.38 since then.

some of the high and low prices are a decent distance to travel just to save a few cents on gas.

in **most** scenarios, you run into every gas station within a certain radius is going to be within a few pennies of each other.

try to deny it. go ahead. i witnessed the same in pittsburgh. they know most people will not go out of theirway to get gas. the bulk of the population may drive past one gas station when they can see the next is 2cents cheaper per gallon, but that's about it. so it's the out of the way stations that are still near everything that will drop prices. it's the stations way out of the way, were there is not much extremely local competition that will keep the prices higher because people will likely pay 5 or 10 cents more per gallon.

plus there was apparently a drop from 2.41 to 2.38 this morning at alot of local stations. the remaining ones around 2.41 will probably drop this afternooon or tomorrow.

gee,, the phenomena was exactly the same in pittsburgh too while i lived there. if one station dropped or increased their price more than a penny, the stations immediately around it would follow suit usually within the day.

EXLNavi

11-03-2005, 10:39 AM

That hasn't really been my experience in three places I got to observe gas prices.

Around here (New Jersey) there is one Exxon station less than a mile away from another and they vary by at least 5-10 cents.

In fact there's a Mobil right next to the Exxon station and their prices are different by about 2-3 cents.

In New York (Brooklyn) if you drive along Atlantic Ave you will see different gas stations with different prices. Independents are usually cheaper by 5-8 cents.

In Queens, close to where I live, along Cross Bay Boulevard there's a Hess and a Sunoco. Sometimes Hess is less sometimes Sunoco is less. Go 1 mile out of the way and the price can be different by as much as 10 cents sometimes.

In south jersey and close to philly the gas prices are similar because they compete with each other. People who live in south jersey often commute to philly and vice versa so they can get gas in either place.

i witnessed the same in pittsburgh. they know most people will not go out of theirway to get gas. the bulk of the population may drive past one gas station when they can see the next is 2cents cheaper per gallon, but that's about it. so it's the out of the way stations that are still near everything that will drop prices. it's the stations way out of the way, were there is not much extremely local competition that will keep the prices higher because people will likely pay 5 or 10 cents more per gallon.

There aren't gas stations on every block, so of course you'll have to drive a little to shop around for gas. You have to drive around to shop for everything. Gas is no different.

I'm failing to see the difference shopping around for gas as compared to other goods. To me, shopping for gas is really not all that different (except that I can't order it online...)

I regularly see sale prices for gas, and "gas sales" being advertised, like 5 cents off for WTF on Sundays... :lmao:

In sharp contrast - when I lived under regulated pricing the price for gas was the same everywhere - TT$2.99/litre for unleaded. Which was about $1.79/gallon in US dollars, in 2000. More than the average, and even more surprising since we were an oil rich country and oil exporter.

princess

11-03-2005, 12:31 PM

Our gas stations group their pricing. The 3 (chevron, shell, valero) at the intersection to our east are within 2 cents of each other... the 2 (shell & exxon) at the intersection to the west are too.

We go where it's on the way to something.... my car gets gassed up at either valero or chevron. He gasses up near work. It used to be at union 76 until work moved. Now I don't know.

His mom used to used 3 gallons of gas to save a few cents on mayonise... seemed silly to me, you're just trading who you pay out to.

I think many Big bussinesses have done well in finding the blend of profit & being reasonable about pricing. Look at VRC's. Our first one in 1984 cost us 900 dollars. It was just a little above the going rate because it was "hi-fi" & most weren't at the time. Our last one with lots of extras was less than 100. To me thats says that those big electronic companies have figured things out. Same with our computers.... the very first one was an Apple 2e for 2400! Now it's cheap to get a computer in comparison, especially if you just buy it in a box & don't customize. There's always an ebb & flow to products, but in general the companies are fairly healthy.

When were feeling pain from the prices, the oil companies COULD actually reduce the price they charge the stations for a while. Instead they raise it. Making themselves a larger profit. When oil goes up by the barrel, it takes a little while for those barrels to be bought & used, yet our prices go up instantly. So Yep, I blame them. Many brands have a franchise price they're expected to charge.

I think it's great that some car manufacturers are trying to get us a little less addicted to oil by trying to market hybrids to the general public. Maybe someday we will be happy with them. We can't know unless we try. They keep coming up with them. Hydrogen cars & a varity of electric ones. Eventually they'll get it right.

I honestly don't think businesses need to be so callous & cold hearted.

My prince proved to himself & others that ripping people off doesn't mean success. You can be profitable & be kind & honest! That cold hearted attitude is what so many dealers have & you all will complain. They're not in business to help you, they're in business to make money. So if they refuse to pay for a questionable warranty job it's just business, right? No? Oh THAT'S considered bad business.... since it's our car. They should make us happy so we'll want to go back. To me THAT'S how all businesses should be. Make us like them. Be nice. So if brands competed for our loyality somehow, then we'd be more apt to return....sometimes even if it did cost more. Instead they just all do the same thing. Then wonder why we blame them for it all!

EXLNavi

11-03-2005, 12:57 PM

The problem I see with blaming oil companies is that taxes have increased steadily and no one blames the Government. Everyone lashes out at the oil companies because they are the ones who appear to be selling the product. Their brand names on gas stations don't seem to be helping all that much in that department.

Gasoline tax really needs to go away or be reduced to a non-ridiculous level. Gas taxes are a pet peeve of mine because the roads keep getting worse and worse and the taxes just keep going up and up. Right now they average around 35% of the retail price. So on $2.50 per gallon that would be 87.5 cents. That's a lot of money! That's also more than many people pay per dollar on their income. It's double dipping and it needs to stop.

I did read somewhere that oil companies did absorb some of the cost post katrina. Gas did go down post 9/11. So I don't think that oil companies are necessarily gouging the public. Public perception will probably never change though, as long as the names of the oil companies feature prominently on the gas pumps.

princess

11-03-2005, 01:21 PM

we blame the government for most things, they get a little break on this one! :lmao:

BenjiBoy650

11-03-2005, 03:37 PM

That's the beauty of a truly free market - necessities aren't traded that differently from non-necessities.

But let's see a few more necessities (Yes, I know the graph is from an oil company website):

http://www.conocophillips.com/NR/rdonlyres/913F0601-03DA-432D-86C2-E439DAB0BB87/0/OilProfitsVsOtherIndust3rdQ2004Revised.gif

These are Q3 2004 figures, but look at how many other industries, including necessities like healthcare, pharmaceuticals and the financial industry make. They make way more per dollar than the oil industry.

Oh yes, I can so trust this chart. The first thing I noticed was the way they beautifully botched the spelling of "Pharmaceuticals"...makes ya wonder...if they can't even take the time to check their spelling, are they doing accurate research? Hmmm....

Oh yes. I love these charts too. They are so misleading. They put a bunch of stuff on top of oil, but they forget to list the 6.02 x 10^23 other industries that are BELOW the oil industry. :dunno:

Again, you bring up % over and over. I'd be a lot more pissed if I lost 1% of a billion bucks in an investment than if I lost 100% of a $10 bet. Get real man.

brickman

11-03-2005, 06:40 PM

brickman

11-03-2005, 06:57 PM

$2.1 billion for retail gasoline (among other things) isn't an awful lot of money.

No matter how many times I read this...I just can't fathom this statement! $2.1 BILLION DOLLARS IS A HUGE SUM OF MONEY....no matter where it came from.....unless, I guess, maybe if you have a few trillion laying around.

EXLNavi

11-04-2005, 04:07 AM

No matter how many times I read this...I just can't fathom this statement! $2.1 BILLION DOLLARS IS A HUGE SUM OF MONEY....no matter where it came from.....unless, I guess, maybe if you have a few trillion laying around.

It's not a huge sum of money if you are a large corporation, especially given market capitalization of the company.

Anyway, now that prices are down, consumption is up. Interest in hybrids has plummeted. No doubt prices will go up again as a result of increased consumption. It's a cycle that won't end until all the oil is used up. And we all have to live with it as long as we have to use gas.

I'm not going to discuss this any further. No one (except Michelle) is listening to anything I'm saying, all I am getting is "OMG big oil is raping us. Gas is too expensive! It's a crime for big oil companies to make money! The Government should regulate gas prices!!" The cure for everything for some people is Government regulation. We all know how well that works. I hope you guys get your Government regulation. You won't be complaining about the price of gas if that happens. Know what you'll be complaining about? Higher taxes.

EXLNavi

11-04-2005, 04:10 AM

Oh yes, I can so trust this chart. The first thing I noticed was the way they beautifully botched the spelling of "Pharmaceuticals"...makes ya wonder...if they can't even take the time to check their spelling, are they doing accurate research? Hmmm....

Oh yes. I love these charts too. They are so misleading. They put a bunch of stuff on top of oil, but they forget to list the 6.02 x 10^23 other industries that are BELOW the oil industry. :dunno:

If you were to list oil in relation to ALL other industries, it would come up around the 120's. But I don't want to waste time making nice charts because this discussion is useless anyway. (So I just borrowed a chart from elsewhere).

And nitpicking a typographical error? That is just pathetic. :lmao:

Again, you bring up % over and over. I'd be a lot more pissed if I lost 1% of a billion bucks in an investment than if I lost 100% of a $10 bet. Get real man.

Corporations don't work on a personal scale. They're much larger therefore they will handle a lot more money than you do. Percentage puts things into perspective.

brickman

11-04-2005, 04:20 AM

Percentage puts things into perspective.

Absolutely, that is why the rich favor a flat tax.

EXLNavi

11-04-2005, 06:41 AM

Absolutely, that is why the rich favor a flat tax.

But it's not because people want to keep the poor man down. Many people want fair taxation and an end to or reduction wealth redistribution.

Personally, I think the current system is unfair and too complicated. Some of it is absurd - like AMT. Due to inflation, it now hurts many middle class people.

Many people, like myself favor a consumption tax. Like FairTax. (http://fairtax.org) That, to me, is the best way to go. You pay taxes only on what you use, not on what you earn. It immensely simplifies the tax system. It eliminates double and triple dipping by the Government.

Spending up to the poverty level is tax free, so poor people aren't unfairly burdened.

But personally I think that it has a snowball's chance in hell of being enacted, simply because many people love the current system of wealth redistribution.

BenjiBoy650

11-04-2005, 08:24 PM

EXLNavi

11-04-2005, 09:50 PM

We are taught in high school that you may not use more than three internet sources for any research paper. Why? Internet is not proofread and edited! Information on the internet holds nobody liable! Whereas if you print that Mr. Jones at 123 Main Street in Smalltown, USA is plotting to kill President Bush, there are serious consequences!

So when I see a serious typographical errors, I disregard the source. I don't discriminate, I do it for everything. When I caught errors in Motor Trend, I stopped subscribing to the magazine because it was obvious that somebody was slacking. It wasn't once every year or so like in Car and Driver...it was once every month and it was a big typo that I couldn't miss if I had been blindfolded. I think what's pathetic is you taking this BS that's fed to you.

Wanna put things into perspective? My college education at Berkeley in Fall 2005 cost me $3155.46 in tuition. Oil companies made how many billions of dollars? And so you see...how many people could they put through college? Or feed? Hmm...I dunno. Seems that you either blatantly miss the point that this money could be put to GOOD use, and by good I don't mean stockpiling it to build interest or refineries.

Ben, the next time I will just use journals and the like. I have access to those through my college's library. But they will all show the same thing, so why even bother?

BTW, $3155.46 is nothing. My tuition per year falls just shy of $30k. Therefore, I don't think that $3k in tuition is that bad, especially when most of it's probably covered by financial aid for many students.

Businesses are not charities. They exist solely to make a profit. If they don't become profitable they go bankrupt and fold up. Everyone loses then.

Even so, oil companies like ExxonMobil do fund scholarships, particularly for people in poorer countries.

Oh, and everyone makes typos, I'm sure you've had your fair share.

BenjiBoy650

11-04-2005, 09:51 PM

BTW, $3155.46 is nothing. My tuition per year falls just shy of $30k. I don't think that $3k in tuition is that bad, especially when most of it's probably covered by financial aid.

I never said it was bad. I just want to show how stupid it is to say "they only make 8%" or whatever it is. When you compare raw numbers, they're making a ton more than anybody else and that's just ridiculous. Everybody is entitled to earn an AMOUNT of money, not a PERCENTAGE of money. Nobody should have the right to hog that kind of $$$ and I can't believe you're defending that. I put my tuition in there (just like I said) to show how much could be done with the money they're making EACH QUARTER...those tuition fees are for ONE SEMESTER = 2 quarters.

If you think public schools give out financial aid in CA you got another thing comin.

EXLNavi

11-04-2005, 10:05 PM

I never said it was bad. I just want to show how stupid it is to say "they only make 8%" or whatever it is. When you compare raw numbers, they're making a ton more than anybody else and that's just ridiculous. Everybody is entitled to earn an AMOUNT of money, not a PERCENTAGE of money. Nobody should have the right to hog that kind of $$$ and I can't believe you're defending that. I put my tuition in there (just like I said) to show how much could be done with the money they're making EACH QUARTER...those tuition fees are for ONE SEMESTER = 2 quarters.

If you think public schools give out financial aid in CA you got another thing comin.

Big companies make big money. They are not charities and never will be. That's how a capitalist economy works.

I never said that public schools in CA give out financial aid. They don't because they charge in-state students much less than out of state students. That is effectively giving financial aid.

The Government also gives grants. Don't you fill out a FAFSA every year?

In New York and in my school many students pay close to zero for their education. We have TAP which gives students as much as $5000 per year for tuition. That more than covers public schools. Private universities give out lots of aid and many students qualify for Pell grants and the like. Many students also go through special programs like SFS which gives them full tuition in exchange for 2 years of Government service.

BenjiBoy650

11-04-2005, 10:15 PM

Too bad I don't live in New York. The amount FAFSA was offering me wouldn't even cover this semester's books. That's because the system is ridiculously outdated and hasn't kept up with inflation. Average house prices are near 1/2 mil and our neighborhood has gone from low 200's to high 800's in 12 years. FAFSA is still giving out only a couple thousand per year to students whose parents make a GRAND TOTAL of $66K a year. You do the math and you'll see it doesn't add up. Trust me, I've looked at it and triple checked it because I couldn't believe a system could be that stupidly designed.

Again, I didn't say companies are not entitled to make money. I said they are not entitled to make BILLIONS.

But anyway...I'm not going to keep arguing a stupid argument. Just kills me to think somebody can't grasp this concept that % really doesn't mean jack.

EXLNavi

11-04-2005, 10:23 PM

Well I am not really arguing, just trying to understand why you don't think companies shouldn't make billions.

Regarding your financial aid issue, it may not be the state's fault. Your parents' income may have a lot to do with it. I couldn't get jack from NY because of my income. All I could get were loans. My EFC was well over 25,000. But luckily my tuition is covered by a full academic scholarship so I don't really pay anything. I am very grateful for that.

according2me

11-06-2005, 06:22 PM

Filling out the FAFSA annually was the road to a small Pell grant for our 3, in addition to the renewal of the annual state (La.) TOPs program which covered the cost of tuition to any in-state public school. Also most colleges and universities have scholarships and grant money, but must be applied for starting in your Junior yr of H.S.

Benji, don't give up on scholarship funds. Keep those grades up and seek out scholarship applications from the department from which you'll seek your major. And definitely do a FAFSA annually while in undergraduate studies.

After graduation, it becomes increasingly difficult to acquire monies for graduate programs and Med schools. But Stafford loans are still available for these programs. Good luck and stay in touch with your advisors.

according2me

11-06-2005, 06:34 PM

Back on topic for this thread. Filled up today, $2.49 for 87 octane at Chevron, Exxon and Shell near the interstate on-ramp.

Our rigs are slowly coming back on-line from the back to back whammy of Katrina and Rita. Some of our refineries were damaged by the flood waters and may take longer than expected to return to pre-K production.

Still, $2.49 is quite a reduction from what it was 2 weeks ago. Me thinks the speculators over reacted immediately after the storms. Who monitors this activity anyway??? Hopefully, someone outside of the petroleum industry.

BenjiBoy650

11-06-2005, 09:59 PM

That's not too bad considering what the region has gone through. We're still at $2.53 or so.

EXLNavi

11-07-2005, 07:14 AM

$2.39/gallon is the average in NJ. In NY it's still around $2.50-$2.60. But that's because we're like CA in that we need special blends.

anysia

11-07-2005, 07:34 AM

EXLNavi

11-07-2005, 08:18 AM

if taxes play such a huge role in gas prices, explain away the difference in gas prices between pittsburgh and madison. this summer,they were virtually identical. pa's state gas tax being around $.31 per gallon and wi's being about $.32 per gallon. only one other state that high, ny smack in the middle of the two.

look at variances. cheapest around madison $2.28. cheapest around pittsburgh, $2.09. been that way all weekend. and what is the minimum around ny? not gonna bother looking because it doesn't specifically effect me in anyway.

but, um, $.19 per gallon difference between pitt and madison?? and only approx $.01 cent per gallon diff in state tax per gallon.............

Taxes aren't the only factor, and I never said they were.

They are a huge factor. I see it every day between NY to NJ.

But there are other factors, including regional demand that will vary the price as well as environmental regs that will vary the blend from state to state. Can't judge by one factor alone.

However, removing or reducing gasoline tax will be the single biggest thing to help prices. They're supposed to be used for fixing roads, and we all know how good of a job they do of doing that...

anysia

11-07-2005, 08:47 AM

EXLNavi

11-07-2005, 11:13 AM

you have been flaunting taxes as a huge reason for the high price though.

federal tax is the same no matter where you are.

state taxes, well, that varies by state. comparing states with similar taxes, their gas should cost approximately the same. however, they don't. and that's because people from wi are not going to drive to pa to get gas. people from ny are not going to drive to wi for gas. and so on and so forth. you may have people in the very far eastern areas of pa and western areas of ny and northern pa and southern ny driving acorss the broders to get cheaper gas, but you'll notice pa's price increase closer to the borders with ny.

That's why I said other market forces in addition to taxes.

Yes, the price does adjust to what the market will pay. But it goes both ways, up and down.

Furthermore, many state laws forbid selling gasoline at a loss. We've been through this already. See the point below about California's gas to see how this applies.

the theory of their being competition in the gasoline market is not a good one and wouldn't hold up well under a close look. and the theory of taxes playing a huge role in the cost of gas doesn't hold up well under a closer look either.

Yet your non-anecdotal evidence to support this position is..?

I'm waiting...

*crickets chirping*

I thought so.

why does ca typically have some of the highest gas prices on the mainland us??

Because California has designer gasoline to comply with environmental regs. Refineries have to shut down and readjust and then start back up again in order to make CA gasoline. Most of CA's gasoline can only be found at refineries in the state, and they are running at max capacity.

But we've been through all of this already.

You're arguing just to argue here. :lmao:

yet when the hurricanes struck, they were actually lower than pa and wi and other states as well?

Due to environmental regulations, California's gasoline is refined mostly in California. Less refining capacity in Louisiana won't affect the supply of California gasoline.

there are people somewhere in the chain creating an artifical supply and demand curve.

like the housing market, it's bound to fail at some point. it won't likely drop thew price excessively, but should help steady the price a bit.

Because there are willing buyers and willing sellers. People are willing to consume more gasoline therefore demand will go up and supply will be in shortage.

Historically, gasoline pricing adjusted for inflation happens in cycles. High prices reduce demand and then low prices give people incentive to up the demand.

EXLNavi

11-07-2005, 11:16 AM

Again, on taxes.

From the EPA (since I was told not to use newspaper articles as facts):

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/gasprices/EIApump.gif

EXLNavi

11-07-2005, 11:21 AM

Primer on gasoline prices. (http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/primer_on_gasoline_prices/html/petbro.html) From the EPA.

Even when crude oil prices are stable, gasoline prices normally fluctuate due to factors such as seasonality and local retail station competition. Additionally, gasoline prices can change rapidly due to crude oil supply disruptions stemming from world events, or domestic problems such as refinery or pipeline outages.

Seasonality in the demand for gasoline - When crude oil prices are stable, retail gasoline prices tend to gradually rise before and during the summer, when people drive more, and fall in the winter. Good weather and vacations cause U.S. summer gasoline demand to average about 5% higher than during the rest of the year. If crude oil prices remain unchanged, gasoline prices would typically increase by 10-15 cents from January to the summer.

Changes in the cost of crude oil - Events in crude oil mar- kets were a major factor in all but one of the five run-ups in gasoline prices between 1992 and 1997, according to the National Petroleum Council’s study, U.S. Petroleum Supply - Inventory Dynamics. About 47 barrels of gasoline are produced from every 100 barrels of crude oil processed at U. S. refineries, with other refined products making up the remainder.

Crude oil prices are determined by worldwide supply and demand, with significant influence by the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC). Since it was organized in 1960, OPEC has tried to keep world oil prices at its target level by setting an upper production limit on its members. OPEC has the potential to influence oil prices world- wide because its members possess such a great portion of the world’s oil supply, accounting for about 39% of the world’s production of crude oil and holding more than two-thirds of the world’s estimated crude oil reserves.

Rapid gasoline price increases have occurred in response to crude oil shortages caused by, for example, the Arab oil embargo in 1973, the Iranian revolution in 1978, the Iran/Iraq war in 1980, and the Persian Gulf conflict in 1990. Gasoline price increases in recent years have been due in part to OPEC crude oil production cuts, turmoil in key oil producing countries, and problems with petroleum infrastructure (e.g., refineries and pipelines) within the United States.

Product supply/demand imbalances - If demand rises quickly or supply declines unexpectedly due to refinery production problems or lagging imports, gasoline inven- tories (stocks) may decline rapidly. When stocks are low and falling, some wholesalers become concerned that supplies may not be adequate over the short term and bid higher for available product. Such imbalances have occurred when a region has changed from one fuel type to another (e.g., to cleaner-burning gasoline) as refiners and marketers adjust to the new product.

Gasoline may be less expensive in one summer when supplies are plentiful vs. another summer when they are not. These are normal price fluctuations, experienced in all commodity markets.

However, prices of basic energy (gasoline, electricity, natural gas, heating oil) are generally more volatile than prices of other commodities. One reason is that consumers are limited in their ability to substitute between fuels when the price for gasoline, for example, fluctuates. So, while consumers can substitute readily between food products when relative prices shift, most do not have that option in fueling their vehicles.

Why do gasoline prices differ according to region?

Although price levels vary over time, Energy Information Administration (EIA) data indicate that average retail gasoline prices tend to typically be higher in certain States or regions than in others (Figure 2). Aside from taxes, there are other factors that contribute to regional and even local differences in gasoline prices:

Proximity of supply - Areas farthest from the Gulf Coast (the source of nearly half of the gasoline produced in the U.S. and, thus, a major supplier to the rest of the country), tend to have higher prices. The proximity of refineries to crude oil supplies can even be a factor, as well as shipping costs (pipeline or waterborne) from refinery to market.

Supply disruptions - Any event which slows or stops production of gasoline for a short time, such as planned or unplanned refinery maintenance, can prompt bidding for available supplies. If the transportation system cannot support the flow of surplus supplies from one region to another, prices will remain comparatively high.

Competition in the local market - Competitive differences can be substantial between a locality with only one or a few gasoline suppliers versus one with a large number of competitors in close proximity. Consumers in remote locations may face a trade-off between higher local prices and the inconvenience of driving some distance to a lower- priced alternative.

Environmental programs - Some areas of the country are required to use special gasolines. Environmental programs, aimed at reducing carbon monoxide, smog, and air toxics, include the Federal and/or State-required oxygenated, reformulated, and low-volatility (evaporates more slowly) gasolines. Other environmental programs put restrictions on transportation and storage. The reformulated gasolines required in some urban areas and in California cost more to produce than conventional gasoline served elsewhere, increasing the price paid at the pump.

Nineteen States have passed legislation to restrict the use of the gasoline additive MTBE, but of these, only California, Connecticut, Kentucky, Missouri, and New York relied on the additive to begin with. MTBE removal requires large changes to gasoline production and distribution. California faced temporary supply dislocations and price volatility during the summer of 2003 as MTBE was removed from gasoline in the State. Other states may face similar issues as they make the transition to gasoline without MTBE.

Operating costs - Even stations co-located have different traffic patterns, rents, and sources of supply that influence retail price

EXLNavi

11-07-2005, 11:31 AM

Not on the subject of taxes, but how much we consume per capita compared to the rest of the world.

We're way ahead.

Yes, I know it says 2001, but it's not going to be much different. If anything, our consumption is up.

Link, dept of energy (http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_market_basics/Dem_image_Cons_per_cap.htm#Consumption%20of%20Oil% 20Per%20Capita)

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_market_basics/images/conspcap.gif

stiller fan

11-09-2005, 02:30 PM

Oil Company Execs Defend Huge Profits

By H. JOSEF HEBERT
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The chiefs of five major oil companies defended the industry's huge profits Wednesday at a Senate hearing where they were exhorted to explain prices and assure customers they're not being gouged.

There is a "growing suspicion that oil companies are taking unfair advantage," Sen. Pete Domenici, R-N.M., said, opening the hearing in a packed committee room.

"The oil companies owe the American people an explanation," he declared.

Lee Raymond, chairman of Exxon Mobil Corp., said he recognizes that high gasoline prices "have put a strain on Americans' household budgets" but he defended his company's huge profits, saying petroleum earnings "go up and down" from year to year.

ExxonMobil, the worlds' largest publicly trade oil company, earned nearly $10 billion in the third quarter. Raymond was joined at the witness table by the chief executives of Chevron Corp., ConocoPhillips, BPAmerica Inc., and Shell Oil Company.

Together the companies earned more than $25 billion in profits in the July-September quarter as the price of crude oil hit $70 a barrel and gasoline surged to record levels after the disruptions of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita.

Raymond said the profits are in line with other industries when earnings are compared to the industry's enormous revenues.

But senators pressed Raymond to explain why in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina some ExxonMobil gas station operators complained the company had raised the wholesale price of its gas by 24 cents a gallon in 24 hours. Is that not price gouging? they asked.

Raymond said he could not confirm the specific price increase, but that ExxonMobil had issued a directive in response to the storm disruptions "to minimize the increase in price while at the same time recognizing if we kept the price too low we would quickly run out (of fuel) at the service stations."

"It was a tough balancing act," said Raymond, who said it was not price gouging.

Although only 28 states have price gouging laws, and they vary widely as to implementation, the head of the Federal Trade Commission cautioned against enactment of a federal price gouging law. "Price gouging laws that have the effect of controlling prices likely will do more harm than good" and would be difficult to enforce, FTC Chairman Deborah Platt Majoras told the hearing held jointly by the committees of energy and commerce.

Democrats had wanted the executives to testify under oath, but Republicans rejected the idea. "If I were a witness I would demand to be put under oath," said Sen. Daniel Inouye, D-Hawaii. The soaring prices have sent shivers through a Congress worried about political fallout.

Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., made the issue personal, noting that the executives were reaping multimillion-dollar bonuses on top of multimillion-dollar salaries as "working people struggle" to pay for gasoline and face the specter of soaring home heating bills this winter. "Your sacrifice appears to be nothing," Boxer told the executives.

The head of the National Association of Manufacturers, former Michigan Gov. John Engler, criticized lawmakers for the way they handled the hearing.

"Demagoguery and demonization will not reduce energy prices or solve supply problems in the long run," he said. "Our energy supply and infrastructure have suffered from 25 years of increasingly restrictive government policies that have made it almost impossible to access and refine the resources we have. The Senate should dispense with the theatrics and get serious about Americas energy supply."

The White House said that President Bush, too, is concerned about energy prices.

"Energy prices have been too high and energy companies have realized significant increases in profits," said spokesman Scott McClellan. "It's important that the private sector be good corporate citizens and invest in the energy infrastructure and support those who are in need."

A number of Democrats, joined by a few Republicans, have called for a windfall profits tax on oil companies.

Domenici said he opposes such a move, saying "it didn't work before and probably won't work again." The government imposed taxes on oil company windfall profits in the 1970s, resulting in a drop in investment in oil development.

The executives hoped to dampen any further momentum for calls for taxing windfall oil company profits, something still viewed as a longshot but also no longer out of the question. Such a tax could inhibit investment in refineries or oil exploration and production, the industry argues.

James Mulva, chairman of ConocoPhillips, said "we are ready open our records" to dispute allegations of price gouging. ConocoPhillips earned $3.8 billion in the third quarter, an 89 percent increase over a year earlier. But he said that represents only a 7.7 percent profit margin for every dollar of sales. "We do not consider that a windfall," said Mulva.

Raymond cautioned against Congress imposing "punitive measures, hastily crafted" - an apparent reference to windfall profits taxes - and suggested that they would inhibit investment in domestic energy projects. Both Republicans and Democrats have urged the companies to use more of their profits to build refineries and other energy projects.

David O'Reilly, chairman of Chevron, attributed the high energy prices to tight supplies even before the Gulf hurricanes hit and said his company is "investing aggressively in the development of new energy supplies."

The oil executives said their companies spend tens of billions of dollars in investments.

Shell earned $9 billion in the third quarter, said John Hofmeister, president of Shell Oil Co., but he said over the last five years the company's investment in U.S. operations was equal to its income from U.S. sales.

The oil industry's record third-quarter profits - at a time when motorists were reeling from unprecedentedly high gasoline costs and warned of huge heating bills this winter - have caught the attention of both Republicans and Democrats in Congress. Some analysts predict the 29 largest oil companies will earn $96 billion this year.

stiller fan

11-09-2005, 02:34 PM

Oil Prices Settle Below $59 Per Barrel

By MADLEN READ
AP Business Writer

NEW YORK (AP) -- Oil prices fell Wednesday to their lowest level in more than three months, settling below $59 a barrel after the U.S. government said supplies of oil and gasoline rose.

"The market is still probing the downside," said oil broker Tom Benz of BNP Parries Commodity Futures in New York.

Warmer-than-usual weather in the U.S. Northeast and Midwest in recent days has helped to bring prices down from late August highs of more than $70 a barrel, and Benz said crude futures may fall to the $55 a barrel level. However, the first cold spell could put a stop to the downward momentum, he said.

Light sweet crude futures for December delivery declined by 78 cents to settle at $58.93 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange. It was the lowest close since the front-month contract settled at $58.65 on July 22.

In London, Brent crude futures traded on the ICE Futures exchange settled at $56.88 per barrel, a decline of 93 cents.

Gasoline futures fell by 1.1 cent to close at $1.5513 a gallon, while heating oil futures rose by 1.11 cent to $1.7896 a gallon.

In its weekly supply report, the federal Energy Information Administration said crude-oil inventories rose 4.5 million barrels to 323.6 million barrels in the week ended Nov. 4 from a week earlier. Crude stocks are about 13 percent higher than they were a year ago.

Gasoline inventories rose by 4.2 million barrels to 201.1 million barrels - nearly 2 percent lower than year-ago levels, but now in the upper half of the average range for this time of year.

U.S. inventories of distillate fuel, which includes diesel and heating oil, slipped by 100,000 barrels to 120.8 million barrels. They are 2 percent higher than a year ago, but in the lower half of the average range for this time of year.

Wednesday's report also suggested that U.S. demand for gasoline is still below last year's levels, but catching up - motor gasoline demand averaged 9.1 million barrels a day last week, just 0.4 percent below the same period last year. Meanwhile, distillate fuel demand in the last week surpassed year-ago levels, averaging 4.1 million barrels a day, or 0.4 percent more than a year ago.

The question on oil traders' minds now is whether heating-oil supplies, after dropping for seven straight weeks, can catch up with growing demand going into the winter.

"It could actually get cold, and it could change the momentum of this entire market in the next couple weeks. Heating oil supplies are falling at a time when they should be building," said Phil Fly, analyst at Aaron Trading Corp. in Chicago. He added that a blast of cold weather could cause oil prices across the board to surge, perhaps even pushing crude back toward the $70-a-barrel level.

Nymex natural gas for December delivery fell 12.4 cents to $11.669 per million British thermal units on Wednesday.

EXLNavi

11-09-2005, 02:49 PM

Got dates on these articles? This really sounds like OLD news...

I know that it fell below $60/barrel a couple weeks ago but then went back up after the storms caused many to fear a long, cold winter...

stiller fan

11-09-2005, 02:57 PM

just posted them.... found in the AP section of the pittsburgh post-gazette......

EXLNavi

11-09-2005, 03:02 PM

Ah, very nice.

Well now that summer driving season is over, along with the reduced demand for energy, I would imagine that the cost of energy will fall.

stiller fan

11-11-2005, 12:43 PM

Oil Prices Fall but Stick Above $57

By GEORGE JAHN
Associated Press Writer

Crude oil futures fell Friday but held above $57 a barrel as a forecast calling for colder weather in the U.S. Northeast next week tempered a selloff tied to rising supplies and slack demand.

Analysts said that with crude plentiful for now, any short-term upward pressure on prices would likely come from distillates, such as heating oil and diesel, with the arrival of the Northern Hemisphere winter.

After a brief rise to $58.20, light sweet crude for December delivery fell 15 cents to $57.65 a barrel in afternoon trade on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

Oil prices are 18 percent below the Aug. 30 high of $70.85, falling on a combination of warmer-than-usual autumn weather in the U.S. Northeast and Midwest.

"We're still in the midst of seasonal weakness," said oil analyst Phil Flynn of Alaron Trading Corp. in Chicago, referring to the months after the summer driving season and before the winter heating season. However, Flynn said he would not be surprised to see energy prices move higher next week if forecasts calling for a cold snap are correct.

"It could be the catalyst that ends this selloff," said Flynn.

Accuweather.com said Friday that warmer air from the south would move as far north as the Great Lakes this weekend but it predicted that "the cold air that has been building in Canada's Arctic will finally begin its push south early next week, moving into the Upper Midwest on Monday. By midweek it will bring near freezing temperatures and the possibility of snow to the Great Lakes and New England."

Heating oil was down less than a cent to $1.7425 per gallon, while gasoline slid more than 2 cents to $1.485 a gallon.

Natural gas was up 27 cents at $11.65 per 1,000 cubic feet.

On Thursday, the U.S. Energy Information Administration released data showing that natural gas in storage grew more than expected last week, surpassing a level that many analysts believe is necessary to meet winter demand. Separately, the Paris-based International Energy Agency said in a monthly report that global oil demand growth in 2005 would be slightly lower than previously expected.

On Wednesday, the U.S. Energy Information Administration said crude oil inventories rose 4.5 million barrels to 323.6 million barrels in the week ended Nov. 4 from a week earlier. Crude stocks are about 13 percent higher than they were a year ago

princess

11-12-2005, 02:50 PM

I looked at 2 stations, one Arco/BP & the other Shell. Gas was 2.41-2.61 for Arco & 2.43-2.65 at Shell today.

EXLNavi

11-12-2005, 04:35 PM

California's always gonna be a little weird... Your prices aren't going to follow the rest of the market, at least for now.

RTexasF

11-12-2005, 05:30 PM

Best price we've seen here in Brownsville TX........$1.86 for regular!!!!!

Coil99

11-12-2005, 05:50 PM

Best price we've seen here in Brownsville TX........$1.86 for regular!!!!!

Good price!

It's down to $2.17 here in Knoxville for 87oct at Exxon. Some of the 'off brand' stations may have it cheaper than that.

MichNYC

11-12-2005, 07:23 PM

I've seen it as low as $2.41 at the off-brand stations, the name-brand guys are in the $2.49-2.59 range for regular in the areas I drive in regularly. :yes:

RTexasF

11-13-2005, 04:46 AM

I'm the one that said we'll never see less than $2.00 per gallon.......Yesterday we filled up for $1.93 then later saw $1.85!!

I've never been so glad to be wrong! :thmsup:

EXLNavi

11-13-2005, 05:03 AM

Last night I filled up for $2.25/gallon at Mobil. Not bad.

SSMV6

11-14-2005, 06:50 AM

On my quest to Ikea over the weekend, I actually found an Exxon that's selling at $2.14 /gallon! :banana: Needless to say, I filled up even when I didn't really need to. :)

piturra

11-14-2005, 12:12 PM

On my quest to Ikea over the weekend, I actually found an Exxon that's selling at $2.14 /gallon! :banana: Needless to say, I filled up even when I didn't really need to. :)

Great price @ Boston, MA

Unfortunately here in CA, it's still higher!

It was $2.44 @ Costco in Tracy,CA last Saturday afternoon! Costco is generally $0.05 to $0.10+ less vs. other gas stations.

Phil

SSMV6

11-14-2005, 12:46 PM

It's actually not in Boston.. It's about 30 minutes south of Boston in Stoughton, MA. It's still the cheapest I've seen in a while so I'm happy. Almost makes me want to try out premium, but I only used up 7 gallons in that tank. I'd rather try the switchover when I'm down to 2 gallons in the tank (15 gallon fillup).

BenjiBoy650

11-14-2005, 02:07 PM

It was $2.44 @ Costco in Tracy,CA last Saturday afternoon! Costco is generally $0.05 to $0.10+ less vs. other gas stations.

Phil

Phil, "Quik Stop" in Oakland or Berkeley on MLK Dr. (right below the BART tracks...that's how I see the price everyday!) is selling at $2.39 today! Shell around here is still at $2.43, and they normally come to within a cent of QuikStop so I'm gonna wait a couple more days to fill up :thmsup:

andysinnh

11-14-2005, 02:17 PM

So here in Southern NH the price has been dropping like crazy. This morning, a couple of local stations in Merrimack were at $2.07 per gallon, and even the name brands (Mobil) were at $2.12. Interesting to go to the web sites that post prices for regions in the country. If you go to www.newhampshiregasprices.com, you can see what's happening up here...

andy

princess

12-16-2005, 11:34 AM

While out & about yesterday I noticed that the stations here are now 2.03-2.25 depending on the grade.

On the news was a story about LOTS of cars quitting or at least running like crap after buying "rotten robbie's" gas. (In Pleasanton) The spokesperson for the stations said they normally buy main brand like Chevron gas without additves then add alcohol & water...they'd messed up & got the ratio wrong!! It was stated with no shame as if it's common practice.... :dunno:

And you wonder why we're so picky about brand!!??

SSMV6

12-16-2005, 11:40 AM

I've always been picky with the brand.. ;)

Since my last update, I've seen gas as low as $1.91 for regular, but that was a week or two ago. Now it's back up to $2.09/ gallon for regular... Premium is still stable at $2.25

princess

12-16-2005, 11:49 AM

It sounds so weird to hear that others are paying what we pay here! We normally are about .25 more than the rest of the country.... it's just all backwards now! I'm not complaining... just can't get over it!!

EXLNavi

12-16-2005, 11:58 AM

The spokesperson for the stations said they normally buy main brand like Chevron gas without additves then add alcohol & water...they'd messed up & got the ratio wrong!! It was stated with no shame as if it's common practice.... :dunno:

Alcohol I can understand, but water?????

diddy_nyc

12-16-2005, 12:01 PM

what r u dudes complaining about??? I live in NYC & this morning I filled my tank with Amoco Ultimate and I paid a killer $2.81 a gallon. :yes: it's true. hahahaha

princess

12-16-2005, 12:06 PM

2.81? Really??? Why is it still so high?

Alcohol I can understand, but water?????

That's what they said.... something about making more volume..... :dunno:

diddy_nyc

12-16-2005, 12:12 PM

brickman

12-16-2005, 07:28 PM

I live in upstate NY and the price has not gone below $2.26/gal here and is now up to $2.29/gal.

MichNYC

12-16-2005, 09:41 PM

what r u dudes complaining about??? I live in NYC & this morning I filled my tank with Amoco Ultimate and I paid a killer $2.81 a gallon. :yes: it's true. hahahaha

i'm in the NYC area, and gas isn't that high in any of the areas i frequently drive around in.... lower westchester, the bronx, and upper manhattan all are around $2.33-2.43 for regular, up to around $2.55-2.65 for premium....

you just have to know where to look! :lmao:

EXLNavi

12-17-2005, 06:05 AM

I know why??? The price of everything in New York goes up by atleast 15-20%. I dont know why... :dunno:

If you buy a bottle of soda in Brooklyn for $1....the Stores in the city want $1.50 or $1.75.
I'm guessing because they cant put taxes on certain things, they can get away with jacking the price up.

The reason I think is real estate prices. It costs a lot to run anything in Manhattan so they have to make it up.

$1.75 is nothing. I once almost paid $3.25 for a 20oz coke in Javits the other day.

EXLNavi

12-17-2005, 06:06 AM

i'm in the NYC area, and gas isn't that high in any of the areas i frequently drive around in.... lower westchester, the bronx, and upper manhattan all are around $2.33-2.43 for regular, up to around $2.55-2.65 for premium....

you just have to know where to look! :lmao:

http://www.newyorkgasprices.com is your friend.

It isn't much lower in NJ either - I've been paying $2.17-$2.25 for gas in NJ.

MichNYC

12-17-2005, 08:14 AM

http://www.newyorkgasprices.com is your friend.

It isn't much lower in NJ either - I've been paying $2.17-$2.25 for gas in NJ.

Driving back from Newark last Sunday, I saw gas for $2.09 for regular, on 78 near the Holland tunnel. (please don't ask why I took the Holland Tunnel home from Newark! :lmao: )

EXLNavi

12-17-2005, 12:35 PM

Driving back from Newark last Sunday, I saw gas for $2.09 for regular, on 78 near the Holland tunnel. (please don't ask why I took the Holland Tunnel home from Newark! :lmao: )

Well *I* would usually take the Holland back from Newark, so umm, were you coming over to my place? :lmao:

If so, why didn't you call so I could at least clean up!

BTW, the tunnel is the most expensive place to get gas in NJ. The cheapest I've seen around the NY metro area in NJ is at costco in clifton. No membership required because of NJ state law.

anysia

12-20-2005, 06:36 AM

with the exception of the randomness of pricing around nyc, why is madison still so high?? $2.25 was the going price for regular over the weekend......... i believe some premium was up to 2.55, but i could be wrong sinc ei dont pay attention to premium.....

anysia

12-20-2005, 06:41 AM

eh, by my old house in pa, the prices range from 2.19 to 2.37 for regular.... so i guess madison is still pretty inline with pittsburgh's gas prices.

EXLNavi

12-20-2005, 06:59 AM

Gas is probably going to go up here this week, since the transit strike has caused virtually everyone to drive.

SSMV6

12-21-2005, 08:31 AM

Gas is probably going to go up here this week, since the transit strike has caused virtually everyone to drive.
Ryan, did your wish come true? Are youworking from home now?

EXLNavi

12-21-2005, 09:12 AM

Ryan, did your wish come true? Are youworking from home now?

LOL, wish?

I worked home from yesterday, but I showed up today. Tomorrow and Friday I am not so sure.

I am now forced to take a longer route, through staten island, which means more miles and more tolls - $8.00 over the verazzano plus $4.00 over the SI bridges (goethals) to be exact!

BenjiBoy650

12-22-2005, 12:17 AM

The SJ/Central Valley prices are up to $2.69/gal! So ridiculous. Although, there's one station at the top of Grapevine around $2.15. I know cuz I got stuck in traffic for 3 hours up there while they were investigating a single car accident where a CHP officer died. :paranoid:

EXLNavi

12-22-2005, 06:55 AM

Gas is now in short supply here because of the transit strike, at least at stations in the city...

I expect the price to inch up a bit.

princess

12-22-2005, 07:58 AM

Glad you're back safe n sound, Ben!!

It's gone up a pinch here....2.15-2.35.

psyshack

12-22-2005, 08:37 AM

$2.07 here

BenjiBoy650

12-22-2005, 09:55 AM

Filled up at $2.09 last night at the local station. Was tempted to bash their windows in...it was going about 1/2 gallon a minute (yes I stayed for 20+ mins in the rain...) and it overflowed my friends '04 Ody's tank :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow

SSMV6

12-22-2005, 10:16 AM

Unfortunately those stations with the slow pumps are usually the cheapest in town and they removed the pump lock so you have to stand there for 20 minutes! :thumbsdow In the meantime, there are 5 people waiting in line for your pump and they're getting pissed at you for taking so long to pump your gas and is ready to bash your window in! :naughty: :nuts: :lmao:

princess

12-22-2005, 10:37 AM

even at the not so cheap ones... if someone else is using the same pump, but the other side of the island it takes a couple of forevers! They've combined the mechanical pump part to do several now.... in the old days each unit had it's own....

EXLNavi

12-22-2005, 10:43 AM

Unfortunately those stations with the slow pumps are usually the cheapest in town and they removed the pump lock so you have to stand there for 20 minutes! :thumbsdow

In all honesty I'd rather have to stay outside and hold the nozzle rather than have people go back inside their cars then come back outside only to ignite the hose with static. Yeah, it's a minor inconvenience, but I think it was a good move safety wise.

Of course in NJ it's all full serve so I get to stay in my car anyway.

brickman

09-08-2006, 08:40 PM

Well, we have all apparently gotten used to the high price of gas...no posts for 9 months. Filled up for $2.82/gal yesterday...price has gone down for a couple of weeks now.

xmangx87

09-08-2006, 10:00 PM

It averages around 2.70 here in MA. I actually saw a gas station with 2.49 regular.

stiller fan

09-09-2006, 09:36 AM

filled up with 2.33 87 octane last night, after dinner and lots of drinking.....

i never got drunk tho.... :( :boohoo:

someone had to drive... :angel:

ps: gas in philly right now is about 2.82

stevencrosbie

09-09-2006, 09:44 AM

last night, after dinner and lots of drinking.....

Yeah drinking :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

stiller fan

09-09-2006, 09:46 AM

:dunno: :confused:

:salue:

stevencrosbie

09-09-2006, 10:02 AM

:dunno: :confused:

:salue:

Yeah, we went out for some "adult beverages" last night..... :nuts:

stiller fan

09-09-2006, 10:08 AM

at least you didn't embarass urself in front of a room full of strangers.... :lmao: :nuts:

stiller fan

10-05-2006, 12:27 PM

gas has gone down 8 cetns overnight.....

now down to 2.15 in philly, under $2 in some spots in jersey i hear..... :eek: :notworthy

i never thought that we would see sub-$2 / gallon gas anytime soon...... :thmsup:

MJL

10-05-2006, 02:39 PM

Gas is going for $1.93 in my area now. Just filled up last night for 1.87 after a nice discount.

I remember dodging having to pay over 2 dollars a gallon when it was on the way up last year for the longest time.

stiller fan

10-05-2006, 02:56 PM

i remember 3.25 a gallon.... :puke:

stiller fan

10-05-2006, 02:57 PM

with the decrease in gas prices still continuing, this is going to help with putting more miles on my car for my roadtrip, starting next wknd..... :banana:

i am still budgeted for 2.50 a gallon tho, so, i'll have more money to play with.... :banana:

princess

10-05-2006, 03:27 PM

I haven't been paying attention to the prices here....but barrell prices dropped. :thmsup: Amazing how it will raise gas prices almost instantly, but it lowers them in slow motion!!

I haven't seen any under 2 bucks here.... gas buddy says right around 2.50 :dunno:

Since we also have a road trip coming up...to Disneyland the first week of Nov... I'm glad to see them go down!! :D Especially since it's annual pass renewal time! :paranoid:

messfeeder

10-05-2006, 05:52 PM

In my area:

Lowest price-$2.469/gal
Average price-$2.609/gal
Highest price-$2.999/gal

The station I usually stop at is about $2.50/gal. That's nearly a dollar less/gal than a few months ago! :banana:

princess

10-05-2006, 06:03 PM

Where are you???? :dunno:

hermann

10-05-2006, 06:11 PM

$1.93 in Kansas City area today. Just like Mickey D's, I'm Lovin it!!! :banana:

princess

10-05-2006, 06:20 PM

My mom was born in OK, but grew up in KS....I'm not sure exactly where, but I remember stories about a field trip to Kansas City.... I still have family in Shawnee Mission. Been there!!

Flew into Kansas City, MO on the way to seeing a friend in Harrison, Ark. It was so flat! Land here is never flat....it's always going up or down.... not including the quakes :lmao:

messfeeder's gas prices sound like here.

hermann

10-05-2006, 06:53 PM

My mom was born in OK, but grew up in KS....I'm not sure exactly where, but I remember stories about a field trip to Kansas City.... I still have family in Shawnee Mission. Been there!!

Flew into Kansas City, MO on the way to seeing a friend in Harrison, Ark.

Sure is a small world. My GF Joanne lives in Shawnee,KS which is the real name for Shawnee Mission.. Shawnee Mission is the name of a school district for the towns of Shawnee and Mission KS. The name Shawnee Mission originally came from the Shawnee Indian reservation that was on the same land, way back when. Even before us. :lmao: :lmao:

BTW when you were in Harrison AR, you were only minutes from one of the top 10 driving roads in America. Highway 7 south out of Harrison is AWESOME. Well maintained and no TRAFFIC.

messfeeder

10-05-2006, 10:54 PM

My mom was born in OK, but grew up in KS....I'm not sure exactly where, but I remember stories about a field trip to Kansas City.... I still have family in Shawnee Mission. Been there!!

Flew into Kansas City, MO on the way to seeing a friend in Harrison, Ark. It was so flat! Land here is never flat....it's always going up or down.... not including the quakes :lmao:

messfeeder's gas prices sound like here.

SoCal FTW! :thmsup:

psyshack

10-06-2006, 04:29 AM

Sure is a small world. My GF Joanne lives in Shawnee,KS which is the real name for Shawnee Mission.. Shawnee Mission is the name of a school district for the towns of Shawnee and Mission KS. The name Shawnee Mission originally came from the Shawnee Indian reservation that was on the same land, way back when. Even before us. :lmao: :lmao:

BTW when you were in Harrison AR, you were only minutes from one of the top 10 driving roads in America. Highway 7 south out of Harrison is AWESOME. Well maintained and no TRAFFIC.

With gas prices droping I mite beable to go and enjoy some of the fun to drive roads again in easter Oklahoma and western Arkansas. Ive nissed my little trips into 4 wheel insanity. :yes:

I can feel hwy's 59, 71, 7 and the talimena drive calling me. With all the wonderful fall colors just around the corner. :)

messfeeder

10-06-2006, 10:55 AM

Since we also have a road trip coming up...to Disneyland the first week of Nov... I'm glad to see them go down!! :D Especially since it's annual pass renewal time! :paranoid:

I was thinking about purchasing the annual pass for Disneyland for me and my girlfriend. But then I bought the car and I can't really afford it! Well, it's not like I ever have time to go anyway. I literally have one day off a week, which is spent doing homework or chores (like washing the new car!). :(

princess

10-06-2006, 11:21 AM

messfeeder,

We used to do the "deluxe" instead of "premium" 'cuz my prince worked on Saturdays. It was LOTS cheaper. Then he went to a regular weekend & we went premium.... you DO save on food & purchases 10-15%. Free parking too. We get free parking at the hotel we use anyway.

It used to be that if you went to the parks 2 & half times, it paid for iutself. Now it's more like 4 times. We still save, but not as much as we used to!

You can get them much less down in SoCal!! Less than one carpayment!! :lmao:

hermann,

WAY back when I visited KS, they still called the place "Shawnee Mission"... but I right after I was there, my family's address changed. I knew they didn't move, so I figured it was something along those lines. This was a VERY long time ago! I was a kid.

We were in Harrison in 2000. We flew to FL & then stopped by to see a friend in ARK on the way home. She moved there when we were teens & we've stayed buddies. We figured we were meant to be friends.... we actually met up at Shasta when my family was camping, she lived in Redding. Less than 2 years later her dad was tranferred to Concord, where we lived. We remet at church. At the time Concord was about 70K & we actually went to church in a neighboring town of Martinez.... of all the places they could've moved & worshipped.... We make quite a pair. We are so different!! She was "wild" as a teen. Her mouth was always getting us into trouble. She still talks like a sailor... no offense Stiller & others.... :lmao:

Her move from CA to ARK was quite a culture shock!! :) I think half the people in Harrison are related to her...... :paranoid:

She did take us on a wonderful drive..... I don't know which roads, but it was beautiful!! We stopped at some rivers, (which was grear until I met a copperhead!!) & a little eatin' place complete with a couple of hounds laying on the porch!! All the food was fried, but tasty!!