Gas prices!

[impulse]

Just went to fill up the Honda, and paid $1.98 a gallon for premium! :mad:

How are things in your area, price wise? Regular's 1.79 a gallon.

[Wardsweb]

regular here $1.59, but then we have oil in Texas. Also gas will be higher for you due to the winter formulation used up north.

[feferic]

In Lincoln, NE -- gas is 1.64/gallon

[kutiepotpie]

i paid $2.01 of 87 in la jolla (san diego, ca) 2 weeks ago. this last week, in a not-as-nice-neighborhood in san diego, i paid $1.97 of 87. ...and i'm sure next week, i'll be paying $2+ in any part of san diego, affluent or not. ~bleh

[hondacuraworld]

We're up around 1.96 a gallon for Premium, 1.81 for 87.

Looks like my moped might see some use this year once the weather breaks :p

[kutiepotpie]

just filled up today, i paid $2.07 for 87! *gag*

[Wardsweb]

Originally posted by kutiepotpie
just filled up today, i paid $2.07 for 87! *gag*

:eek: OUCH ! :sorry:

[kutiepotpie]

i didn't fill up, but on my way to lunch with a friend, he needed to fill up in La Jolla, CA... and gas prices were 2.21 FOR 87!! he drives a BMW and usually puts in 91, but just couldn't afford it. i'm positive this particular station is price gauging and i've notified some "authorities" like it said in a commercial i saw on tv last week. but this is absolutely crazy. i'm sure in a month, La Jolla will hit $3. i'm so angry.

[kutiepotpie]

and for those who don't believe me that san diego has these outrageous gas prices... there is a gas station here that's charging $4.29 a gallon!!! here's the link: http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/2037085/detail.html

[according2me]

Glad I'm nowhere near the left coast. 87 octane Chevron was $1.589 today in Slidell. (near New Orleans)

[Wardsweb]

Originally posted by according2me
Glad I'm nowhere near the left coast. 87 octane Chevron was $1.589 today in Slidell. (near New Orleans)

Wouldn't that be "Na Orluns" :)

[according2me]

Actually it's N'awlins !!!!!!!!!

[hondacuraworld]

I paid 1.99/9 this morning for Premium :mad:

At least around here, nobody's breaching the 2.00 mark. Could part of the price difference in some areas of the country have to do with the use of RFG fuels in major metropolitan areas?

[according2me]

It could be. Is RFG the winter formula that also causes mpg to decrease in the winter months up North. Being from the Deep South, I don't believe our refiners change their mix much.

[kutiepotpie]

check out this thread from another car board regarding 87 pumps at gas stations

http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=933

[Effen Fish]

Hike in prices was mainly due to the worker strike in South America. We get a fair amount of crude from down there. It took awhile to deplete the oil already stored, so there was a delay between the strike and gas rising gas prices. Even though the oil is flowing again, there is some reluctance to drop the prices as long as we pay them.

[Inspector1]

Remember this....... wish we could still complain about these prices :yes:

I1 :)

[stiller fan]

i remember back in 99, the first year that i was driving, it was about .75/gallon for regular.....

[EXLNavi]

In Trinidad the gas prices are regulated by the Government, and there's only one brand of gas station (which is/was Government owned).

[stiller fan]

hmm, wonder why they would wait so long to phase out the leaded gas??? :dunno:

[EXLNavi]

hmm, wonder why they would wait so long to phase out the leaded gas??? :dunno:

Mainly because they don't care about the environment. There were little or no environmental regulations there when last I was there. As much as people worldwide knock America for destroying the environment, I think we're doing much better than most (all?) third world or developed countries.

The other thing is that the Government owns the petroleum industry (except for a few offshore oilfields which are owned by BP Amoco). The Government doesn't want to do anything that will raise the cost of living for the people, and forcing everyone to use unleaded gas would have.

[SSMV6]

If anyone thinks we're harming the environment with our cars, they should go to places like Thailand and China.. 3 out of 4 cars there spew out smoke. The air pollution in the major cities are so bad that you see 1/2 the people walking around with face masks. Not the full face masks, just the white surgical masks that cover the mouth and nose. :lmao:

[hermann]

When I first started driving in 1970 gas was 19.9 cents, yes for a whole gallon. But I only made $1.80 an hour and that was when min. wage was $1.35 if i recall correctly. Today in Kansas City it has come down to ONLY $2.55 for top tier fuel..The high here was $3.19 one week after Katrina hit.

Dan

[SSMV6]

Two years from today, we're going to pull up this thread again and reminisc how low the prices are now at only $2.99/ gallon! :nuts: I hope the downward trend of gas prices continues until it gets back below $2.00/gallon. I'm kinda glad I don't need premium any more. :)

[EXLNavi]

Hey SSMV6, what did you have that you needed premium?

[F6Hawk]

I currently have a student who is from Turkey. Now, you'd think gas would be cheaper over there, since the stuff is only a few miles from his homeland... but he says when he left last month, he was paying around $9 US per gallon.

Ouch! :thumbsdow

[SSMV6]

Ryan, check out my sig... 2000 Civic Si.. It had a B16A2 engine that required premium! :eek: So even though my Accord is using more gas than the Civic (21mpg city vs 23mpg), I'm not paying a heck of a lot more for gas since the Accord uses regular. And when I do drive on the highway (ie the twice a year road trip) the Accord is actually cheaper on gas! (29mpg regular vs 28mpg premium) More reasons to love the Accord.

BTW, the gas milages are real world mileages and my old Civic started having problems with the EVAP system and was beginning to suck gas like it's nothing. Used to never get below 25mpg city. When I traded it in, it was getting around 22-23mpg with 70% city driving.

[EXLNavi]

Oh right I forgot all about looking in your sig. :lmao:

[EXLNavi]

I currently have a student who is from Turkey. Now, you'd think gas would be cheaper over there, since the stuff is only a few miles from his homeland... but he says when he left last month, he was paying around $9 US per gallon.

Ouch! :thumbsdow


I'm betting most of that is due to taxation. That's why diesels are so popular in Europe.

[BenjiBoy650]

Big news! Gas prices came down! And diesel dropped 20 cents overnight as well... :dunno:

[MichNYC]

When I left for work this morning, gas was $3.41/gallon at the BP station near my apartment. When I got home tonight, the same station was down to $3.29. There's a BP (I think) closer to my work, though, that's down to $3.09! Just a few more days, and hopefully we'll be back below the $3 level here!!! :banana:

[EXLNavi]

Gas is going down, but I do not think that we will see below $2/gallon anytime soon. Demand for petroleum products is up, not only from India and China but also right here in the US. Yes it has to do with SUVs too but actually a recent survey found that on average people are driving more miles per year. So its not entirely the SUVs but the fact that demand for gas is up in general. Also affecting prices are the lack of new refineries, increased gas tax by the states and the price of oil.

[jdowen2]

$2.95 in Phoenix.

[MichNYC]

i have to get gas this morning... :( saw a station at $2.99 in the bronx last night!

[RTexasF]

It has actually dropped here to $2.69. Below $2.00? Never to be seen again IMO.

[hermann]

$2.42 in Kansas City this morn. Our high was $3.19

Dan

[andysinnh]

Here in NH we're starting to see the prices at $2.89-$2.92 again (yea, what a deal, considering it was $2.49 3 weeks ago...)

andy

[stiller fan]

It has actually dropped here to $2.69. Below $2.00? Never to be seen again IMO.

i think that in the near future, it will drop below 2/gallon, but not much below.....

[RTexasF]

I hope you're right but I ain't holdin' my breath!!!!!

[SSMV6]

I think most people are glad to see the gas prices drop to below $3/gallon! I'm still looking for that "magical" $2/gallon price. :alien:

When did we start having this emoticon? :boohoo: It's cute. :)

[EXLNavi]

I saw $2.89 close to where I work (Livingston).

Coming down ever so slowly...

[EXLNavi]

i think that in the near future, it will drop below 2/gallon, but not much below.....


So tell me stiller, how do you know this? Are you part of the vast halliburton blood-for-oil conspiracy? :lmao:

[Inspector1]

2.19 Yesterday about 20 more cents and I would be very happy :yes:

I1 :)

[EXLNavi]

Filled up for $2.47/gallon yesterday for regular in Roseland, NJ.

[RTexasF]

2.19 Yesterday about 20 more cents and I would be very happy :yes:

I1 :)

Wow! And I thought I was happy with $2.36 for Shell regular........

[Inspector1]

I think we will see lower prices with the release of Big Oils 3rd Quarter profit statements :yes:

I1 :)

[EXLNavi]

I think so.

But it may not go down too much since the price of oil is still high.

[princess]

Oil companies had RECORD profits this quarter.....gee, I wonder why..... :paranoid:

[EXLNavi]

Oil companies had RECORD profits this quarter.....gee, I wonder why..... :paranoid:

Everyone likes to blame "Big Oil" for high gas prices. But somehow I think the blame should lie elsewhere.

See below:

[EXLNavi]

And not that I'm defending "BIG OIL" or anything, but this profit seems to be consistent with previous earnings:

Q3 2005, $100B revenue, $9.9B profit, 9.9% (approx)
Q2 2005, $88.568B Revenue, $7.64B Net profit, 8.62%
Q1 2005, $82.051B Revenue, $7.86B Net profit, 9.51%
Q4 2004, $83.365B Revenue, $8.42B Net profit, 10.1%
Q3 2004, $76.375B Revenue, $5.68B Net profit, 7.44%

[anysia]

just dropped to 2.49 here.

hmm, i almost choked on my lunch yesterday when the news stuff on teh tv was talking about the record profits. :thumbsdow :screwy:

[SSMV6]

Exxon-Mobil earned $9.9 BILLION last quarter. :rolleyes:
They've been making record profits since last year! If they don't bring the prices down to below $2/gallon soon....... :headbash:

It's going down, but now quick enough.

[stiller fan]

2.32 in philly right now..... but, you gotta hunt for it.....

hoping to see under 2/gallon by the end of the year.

[princess]

Our's is down to 2.80's-3.00 now. I've seen a couple at 2.mid 70's, but not often.

[04blkpearlcoupe]

The just interviewed a big oil refinery manager on a radio talk show and he said that demand is so high that they've been running 24/7 at full capacity for months due to the hurricanes and the iraq war. They can't even shut down for regular maintenance. He says this is why the gas companies can charge such high prices. Its just supply and demand. If people want to see the prices go down they have to curb their gas consumption.

[stiller fan]

The just interviewed a big oil refinery manager on a radio talk show and he said that demand is so high that they've been running 24/7 at full capacity for months due to the hurricanes and the iraq war. They can't even shut down for regular maintenance. He says this is why the gas companies can charge such high prices. Its just supply and demand. If people want to see the prices go down they have to curb their gas consumption.

hmmmm, not sure if i wanna believe that or not..... riht now, leaning towards NOT!!!!!

[princess]

Can they explain the record profits? I thought PROFITS come after the cost of production comes off. Am I wrong? :dunno:

[SSMV6]

The just interviewed a big oil refinery manager on a radio talk show and he said that demand is so high that they've been running 24/7 at full capacity for months due to the hurricanes and the iraq war. They can't even shut down for regular maintenance. He says this is why the gas companies can charge such high prices. Its just supply and demand. If people want to see the prices go down they have to curb their gas consumption.
Yes, it's supply and demand, but did they ever say what they'll do with over $40 billion in profits from the past year and a half? No. They're not willing to build additional refineries or increase the output capacity of the current refineries at all. I know demand is increasing because there are more people with cars than ever, but the oil companies are doing nothing to curb the demand. Instead, they're closing gas stations, neglecting repairs, and trying to point fingers with one hand while busily stuffing their profit into their overflowing pockets with the other.

You could say that the price per barrel of crude oil has gone higher than ever and the oil companies are adjusting their prices to compensate, but what most people don't know is the gas they were using were bought at a much lower price before the price per barrel went up. When the price per barrel goes down, the prices at the pump goes down too, but at a much, much slower rate. The oil companies know America relies on oil to function and it's making every excuse to avoid major confrontation from its consumers by playing on our ignorance. :mad:

[EXLNavi]

Can they explain the record profits? I thought PROFITS come after the cost of production comes off. Am I wrong? :dunno:


You're not wrong, but look at the stats I posted. While record breaking in quantity, it's about average in percentage. Mathematically, they're right about where they were. Economically, they've done better.

[stiller fan]

how about the profits over the past 5 years, when gas was a lot cheaper???? didn't notice those numbers......... were the profits margins about the same then too, or alot less?

saw on usa today's front page that sen frist is trying to get a senate hearings committee together to find out if the price gouging the oil companies are legit, or only just to maximize profits only.....

[EXLNavi]

Yes, it's supply and demand, but did they ever say what they'll do with over $40 billion in profits from the past year and a half? No. They're not willing to build additional refineries or increase the output capacity of the current refineries at all. I know demand is increasing because there are more people with cars than ever, but the oil companies are doing nothing to curb the demand. Instead, they're closing gas stations, neglecting repairs, and trying to point fingers with one hand while busily stuffing their profit into their overflowing pockets with the other.

Really?

Firstly, regarding your last issue, gas station closings are really not their fault so much as it is the owners. The retail side of things is handled by private owners and franchisees.

And as for your point of more refineries not being built, well there are a number of reasons why this is so. Mostly because it doesn't make economic sense.

A nice article (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/editorial/3416196
) sums it up.

Visiting scholar Fereidun Fesharaki, a senior fellow of the East-West Center, told the Chronicle that U.S. oil companies will not build new refineries because their executives are not stupid. Huge refining capacity is coming online offshore, Fesharaki said. Europe is moving toward diesel, freeing up capacity for refining gasoline that will be exported to the United States.

U.S. Energy Secretary Samuel Bodman seems to agree, suggesting that refineries abroad were more likely than new U.S. plants to expand gasoline supplies available to American drivers. Fesharaki said growing U.S. demand (and not the relatively modest demand for imports in India and China) was the cause of today's tight supplies.

Both Fesharaki and Bodman said reducing U.S. demand through conservation and changed habits was the best short-term solution to tight supplies.

In the corporate world, there's no such thing as charity. Business decisions are made solely in the interest of owners and shareholders. Making new refineries will not make economic sense, and therefore companies will not do it.

Forcing them to do it is a bad idea. It totally undermines the concept of a free market and the oil companies will probably just fold up instead of bowing to Government demands to open more refineries.

You could say that the price per barrel of crude oil has gone higher than ever and the oil companies are adjusting their prices to compensate, but what most people don't know is the gas they were using were bought at a much lower price before the price per barrel went up. When the price per barrel goes down, the prices at the pump goes down too, but at a much, much slower rate. The oil companies know America relies on oil to function and it's making every excuse to avoid major confrontation from its consumers by playing on our ignorance. :mad:

WEll I think the solution to the above problem would be to move away from oil, but that's just my idealistic thinking...

The fact is that consumption worldwide is UP and even in the USA it is UP. our demand for energy is much higher than before. Supply and demand dictates that the price will go up with higher demand, which will provide a disincentive for more demand...

Bear in mind as well that gasoline is a publicly traded commodity. Makes it kinda hard for any sort of price fixing.

[EXLNavi]

how about the profits over the past 5 years, when gas was a lot cheaper???? didn't notice those numbers......... were the profits margins about the same then too, or alot less?

The percentages were about the same, which would imply that the margins were about the same.

[princess]

Not long ago Chevron reported a 150% profit....

It seems like no matter how you cut it, they're charging us more than it costs to make it. The costs of production may have gone up, the price of oil & all the stuff attached.....but if the "profits" are up then they got more comin' in than they got goin' out....by far.

If I had more outgo when I had more income it would count as an increase, right? Say my income is 100K a year for 2003 & 110K for 2004.... with changes in the outgo it went from 80K to 85K....I have more funds in the end even though the costs were higher, so was the income. I'd consider it a good year.... not make excuses as to why it really wasn't! The WHERE it went isn't important to the rest of the world, the fact there's more for them when we were paying so much is just plain heart breaking!!

It feels like a bigger chunk of all of our paychecks are going into the wrong pockets!!

[stiller fan]

It feels like a bigger chunk of all of our paychecks are going into the wrong pockets!!

agreed!!! :yes:

[stiller fan]

The percentages were about the same, which would imply that the margins were about the same.

not to be harsh, but do you know for sure??? just asking out of curiousity...... :)

[EXLNavi]

not to be harsh, but do you know for sure??? just asking out of curiousity...... :)


Well I did post some history dating back to 04?

Most of this info is public, if you google hard enough.

[EXLNavi]

Not long ago Chevron reported a 150% profit....

It seems like no matter how you cut it, they're charging us more than it costs to make it. The costs of production may have gone up, the price of oil & all the stuff attached.....but if the "profits" are up then they got more comin' in than they got goin' out....by far.

If I had more outgo when I had more income it would count as an increase, right? Say my income is 100K a year for 2003 & 110K for 2004.... with changes in the outgo it went from 80K to 85K....I have more funds in the end even though the costs were higher, so was the income. I'd consider it a good year.... not make excuses as to why it really wasn't! The WHERE it went isn't important to the rest of the world, the fact there's more for them when we were paying so much is just plain heart breaking!!

It feels like a bigger chunk of all of our paychecks are going into the wrong pockets!!

Well if you look at it, the sheer size of these companies is causing them to report record profits.

But if you look at the percentages, they are like 120ish on the list of large companies in terms of profit margin. Meaning that there are a lot more companies that make more percentage profits than they do.

Years ago they did surveys and actually found out that refining capacity was well in excess of demand, especially in the west coast. Fast forward to now, where demand has increased sharply. They can't just build a refinery overnight, and just to plan it out costs a LOT of money. Refineries are a horrible investment. They cost a lot of money for very little return.

[princess]

where demand has increased sharply

I'm not conviced of this....I know it's what they say, but it doesn't make any sense. If our cars use less, out heaters use less even more of them would mean it would be about even.

They've been using that excuse for both sides....

We pay more than SoCal because there's less people buying here..... then they say we pay more here because of there being more demand. :dunno: Supply & demand just can't be the REAL reason!

Generally if you buy something at a small store you pay more because they did, if you buy the same thing at a big store you pay less 'cuz they did. That's the whole idea behind Costco. They buy in bulk. So if we really are buying more fuel, then normal logic is that it would cost us less.

If it costs 10 bucks to fire up that part of the refinery for per 10 gallons made, then the next 10 gallons would cost a few cents less 'cuz it's already all fired up, & so on.....

I feel cheated!

[EXLNavi]

I'm not conviced of this....I know it's what they say, but it doesn't make any sense. If our cars use less, out heaters use less even more of them would mean it would be about even.

Americans are driving more miles than ever before. More cars and more miles. Other forms of energy are being used more and more. You live in California, you know about the energy crisis and stuff...

We pay more than SoCal because there's less people buying here..... then they say we pay more here because of there being more demand. :dunno: Supply & demand just can't be the REAL reason!

Supply and demand is the surface symptom, but the bigger problem is what's causing refineries to close and new ones not to be built. Environmental regulations force refineries to conform or close down. New ones need lots of lead time and money to be built. Like I said, they're not a good investment. Oil companies cringe at the thought of building new refineries because they're simply not profitable... So I guess in a way you could say that yes they are manipulating the market, but I don't think it's all on purpose.

Generally if you buy something at a small store you pay more because they did, if you buy the same thing at a big store you pay less 'cuz they did. That's the whole idea behind Costco. They buy in bulk. So if we really are buying more fuel, then normal logic is that it would cost us less.

If it costs 10 bucks to fire up that part of the refinery for per 10 gallons made, then the next 10 gallons would cost a few cents less 'cuz it's already all fired up, & so on.....

I feel cheated!

Volume is only good when one person or an organized group buys in bulk, other than that it's just retail.

[BenjiBoy650]

You're all WRONG! Ok so it's not that simple.

I understand all the points made here. But seriously, why does an oil company need to pocket billions of dollars? I mean, that's not even going to executives or CEO's, that's just going into a company's friggin bank account! That is just ridiculous. Can you imagine how many people they could feed instead of just lining the COMPANY'S pocket's?

Yes it works if one person buys in bulk, otherwise it's just retail. But come on, I don't care what the percentages are, it's just common sense. A small percent of a lot is still a lot, a big percent of a little is still a little. I don't look at percentage...how can you defend the oil company's by saying that there are more companies making higher percentage on their profits? That's just ridiculous. When it comes down to hard raw numbers, we're getting skinned alive by the oil companies and we all know it.

You can stop trying to convince us now :)

[EXLNavi]

You're all WRONG! Ok so it's not that simple.

I understand all the points made here. But seriously, why does an oil company need to pocket billions of dollars? I mean, that's not even going to executives or CEO's, that's just going into a company's friggin bank account! That is just ridiculous. Can you imagine how many people they could feed instead of just lining the COMPANY'S pocket's?

Yes it works if one person buys in bulk, otherwise it's just retail. But come on, I don't care what the percentages are, it's just common sense. A small percent of a lot is still a lot, a big percent of a little is still a little. I don't look at percentage...how can you defend the oil company's by saying that there are more companies making higher percentage on their profits? That's just ridiculous. When it comes down to hard raw numbers, we're getting skinned alive by the oil companies and we all know it.

You can stop trying to convince us now :)

A business works for its owners and shareholders. It is not a charity. They're in business to make money.

Exxon Mobil has about 6.3 billion shares outstanding. That represents earnings of about $1.38 per share for the quarter. A share would cost about $56.84 right now. That's not really that excessive.

And considering that the US has some of the lowest gas prices in the world (except places where it is heavily subsidized like Venezuela), I don't see how we're being "skinned alive."

[BenjiBoy650]

And considering that the US has some of the lowest gas prices in the world (except places where it is heavily subsidized like Venezuela), I don't see how we're being "skinned alive."

Come on, you know better than this. In the US, all the profits go to the Oil Companies. Isn't that painfully obvious? You pointed out in the rest of the world, gas prices are regulated by the government. And where do you think the bulk of the $$$ goes in those cases? My guess? The government...

[EXLNavi]

Come on, you know better than this. In the US, all the profits go to the Oil Companies. Isn't that painfully obvious? You pointed out in the rest of the world, gas prices are regulated by the government. And where do you think the bulk of the $$$ goes in those cases? My guess? The government...


And that's what makes America the great country that it is.

I would HATE free market competition to go away for ANYTHING. Anytime you put the Government in charge of something, they royally fsck it up. You live in California, I need not remind you of your energy crisis and Gray Davis.

Free markets work, and they work very well.

Besides that, who says that fuel prices aren't regulated by the Government?

Haven't you seen the amount of tax that they charge per gallon of gas?

Did you know that it is illegal in most states for gas stations to sell gasoline for a loss?

Did you know that full serve only laws in Oregon and New Jersey are there partially for price control reasons?

Did you know that Costco and Sam's cannot restrict gasoline sales to nonmembers in some states (New Jersey and a couple others)?

Do you know about IFTA?

All of this is an example of Government price control on fuel. Fuel is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the nation. Even with that, we're not a quasi-communist state like Venezuela (trust me, I've been there long enough to know) or an islamist theocracy like saudi arabia to undermine the free market and subsidize the price of gas. This is America, where free markets and competition rule. The price will go up and down with market forces. There is no way of stopping that in our economy.

[BenjiBoy650]

Did you know that full serve only laws in Oregon and New Jersey are there partially for price control reasons?

Did you know that their prices are still much lower than the price in CA? :dunno: If that's what I can expect from price control, bring it on!

Of course, I'm blatantly ignoring other factors. I'm still wishing there would be a national standard, it would do good for us all. Gas prices would come down theoretically since the economies of scale are in effect (but being oil companies they'll go up because there was a change in the way that gas was made... :thumbsdow )

[EXLNavi]

Did you know that their prices are still much lower than the price in CA? :dunno: If that's what I can expect from price control, bring it on!

Of course, I'm blatantly ignoring other factors.

Yes you are!

I spend most of my driving time in the Garden state.

OUr gas prices here are low because of less TAXES on gasoline. New Jersey has some of the lowest gasoline taxes in the nation.

How on EARTH do they get away with that? Why, they simply take it from other places - mostly tolls (NJ's two most popular highways - the NJ Turnpike and the GSP are toll roads) and property taxes.


I'm still wishing there would be a national standard, it would do good for us all. Gas prices would come down theoretically since the economies of scale are in effect (but being oil companies they'll go up because there was a change in the way that gas was made... :thumbsdow )

I would like to see everyone standardizing on a standard blend of gasoline. That would most likely make gas cheaper. But there is no way there can be a "national" price for gasoline. I'm willing to wager that most states will secede before the feds touch the price of gas.

[brickman]

ExxonMobil just posted the largest profit ever by a US company...ever....in the history of the country. They saw a 75% increase over the previous quarter!!! That is HUGE! A 75% increase in profits over three months has nothing to do with supply and demand....I will never believe that! I have been driving a car for over 25 years. During that time there have been many hurricanes that hit the same area as did Katrina. I have NEVER seen the price of gas go up because a hurricane hit the Gulf until Katrina...NEVER! They did it because they could and for no other reason. We are not taking about durable goods that anyone can take or leave. If you sell leather jackets and you price them too high, no one buys them...no one HAS to buy them....it is not a necessity to own a leather jacket, it is a choice. While not everyone has to buy gas, many of us do...it IS a necessity for me...whether gas is $1.00/gallon or $10.00/gallon, I have to buy it, otherwise I lose my job. Where does supply and demand dictate price here? No matter what, I have to buy it. Now I can do less driving. I can stop driving on the weekends to my daughters track meet or I can stop driving with my son to a local restaurant on Sunday to watch a football game that is not on TV. So I sacrifice all my pleasures so the oil executives can get rich and I still spend more now on gas even though I am driving less that I did a year ago? And this is OK? NO WAY! This sucks!! The oil companies are charging these prices because they can and no amount of "less demand" is going to change that. This is a necessary item in our economy and when the price of an energy source increases the way gas has over the last few months, the potential for a recession or worse yet, a depression, is great. Someone, and I only see the government doing this, needs to regulate and the control the oil industry so this type of price gouging does not happen! The profits all the oil companies posted for the last quarter were obscene!

Can you tell I'm a Little pissed off! :thumbsdow

[BenjiBoy650]

ExxonMobil just posted the largest profit ever by a US company...ever....in the history of the country. They saw a 75% increase over the previous quarter!!! That is HUGE! A 75% increase in profits over three months has nothing to do with supply and demand....I will never believe that! I have been driving a car for over 25 years. During that time there have been many hurricanes that hit the same area as did Katrina. I have NEVER seen the price of gas go up because a hurricane hit the Gulf until Katrina...NEVER! They did it because they could and for no other reason. We are not taking about durable goods that anyone can take or leave. If you sell leather jackets and you price them too high, no one buys them...no one HAS to buy them....it is not a necessity to own a leather jacket, it is a choice. While not everyone has to buy gas, many of us do...it IS a necessity for me...whether gas is $1.00/gallon or $10.00/gallon, I have to buy it, otherwise I lose my job. Where does supply and demand dictate price here? No matter what, I have to buy it. Now I can do less driving. I can stop driving on the weekends to my daughters track meet or I can stop driving with my son to a local restaurant on Sunday to watch a football game that is not on TV. So I sacrifice all my pleasures so the oil executives can get rich and I still spend more now on gas even though I am driving less that I did a year ago? And this is OK? NO WAY! This sucks!! The oil companies are charging these prices because they can and no amount of "less demand" is going to change that. This is a necessary item in our economy and when the price of an energy source increases the way gas has over the last few months, the potential for a recession or worse yet, a depression, is great. Someone, and I only see the government doing this, needs to regulate and the control the oil industry so this type of price gouging does not happen! The profits all the oil companies posted for the last quarter were obscene!

Can you tell I'm a Little pissed off! :thumbsdow

*CLAP CLAP CLAP*!! My sentiments exactly!!!!

[brickman]

Oh yea...one more thing on this whole supply and demand argument...the huge last quarter profits that all the oil companies posted were almost all made on LESS gas sales by volume that the previous quarter. Sounds like less demand really makes the price go down...not quite sure how that works.

[Inspector1]

2.09 in Cincy today..

I1 :)

[BenjiBoy650]

$2.59 here whewww haven't seen under 2.60 since my birthday.

[EXLNavi]

Now I can do less driving. I can stop driving on the weekends to my daughters track meet or I can stop driving with my son to a local restaurant on Sunday to watch a football game that is not on TV. So I sacrifice all my pleasures so the oil executives can get rich and I still spend more now on gas even though I am driving less that I did a year ago? And this is OK? NO WAY! This sucks!!

So you're saying that the Government should step in and regulate the price of gas because the free market prices are getting in the way of your pleasures and luxuries?

I'm not sure I'm getting your logic.

I'll not mention AGAIN that we have some of the lowest gas prices in the world. Oh sure, there's cheaper gas in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait or Venezuela, but I'm sure you don't want the women here to wear beekeper suits and I'm sure yo udon't like the military shooting off warning shots every 2-3 days.

In Europe they are paying close to US$5/gallon for gas.

The very reason that we have low gas prices is because the Government does not intefere with free market competition. Economics 101.

I can almost guarantee that if the Government steps in and slaps price controls on gas that the gas supply will get even tighter, and the prices will go up even more. Surely, that's not what you're trying to achieve, now isn't it?

Regarding oil company profits, I showed figures that showed that profit percentages are about the same as before. Nothing has changed! And since when was it a crime in this country to make money? This is America, my friend. If you don't like the price of something, don't buy it! If you don't like the price of gas, find ways to use less. That works for me.

[EXLNavi]

Oh yea...one more thing on this whole supply and demand argument...the huge last quarter profits that all the oil companies posted were almost all made on LESS gas sales by volume that the previous quarter. Sounds like less demand really makes the price go down...not quite sure how that works.


Again, profit percentages are the same, meaning their overhead costs were in proportion to their selling price for the products.

One explanation is that the price of oil was higher anyway. The revenue and profit numbers will be inflated as a result.

[BenjiBoy650]

I knew you were gonna be able to come up with some BS like that. It's not that gas isn't cheap, it's that it's going towards someone I don't want it to go to. Hey BTW, profits already took into account overhead and such...

[EXLNavi]

I knew you were gonna be able to come up with some BS like that. It's not that gas isn't cheap, it's that it's going towards someone I don't want it to go to. Hey BTW, profits already took into account overhead and such...

Here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051023/bs_nm/bizfeature_oil_dc) is an article you should read.

There is no grand conspiracy by "BIG OIL" to steal from the "poor man" at all. In fact, they've largely restrained themselves from passing on the higher price of energy to consumers:

Mid-quarter updates from oil majors like Chevron and ConocoPhillips (NYSE:COP - news) show they actually refrained from passing on the full impact of high energy costs to gasoline consumers immediately after the hurricanes, analysts say.

"They ate a lot of the costs of the gasoline price increases and took that as losses to avoid passing through really ridiculous price volatility," Paul Sankey of Deutsche Bank said.

As a result, margins from retail gasoline operations are likely to be substantially lower in the third quarter than in previous periods, Wall Street and the companies say.

Global market leader Exxon, which plans to report earnings next week, would not say how its retail margins have fared in the hurricanes' aftermath. In the past, it has said it makes a profit of a nickel on a gallon of gas.

Chief Executive Lee Raymond has also been quick to strike back against efforts to penalize oil companies, saying most of Exxon's profits come from overseas operations. In any case, no one called to help when oil prices fell precipitously to $10 a barrel in the late 1990s, he said.

"The question of how much money we should make -- profit is not a dirty word," Raymond told Fox News recently. "The reason we make the money we make is, number one, we sell in enormous volume."

And he's 100% correct. Oil companies' market is way bigger than the US alone. In fact the US only accounts for 25% of their market, I believe.

[EXLNavi]

2.09 in Cincy today..

I1 :)

$2.45 in Roseland (NJ) today... Not making that much of a difference in my final gas bill, but at least it's coming down.

[BenjiBoy650]

"The reason we make the money we make is, number one, we sell in enormous volume."

Sure, but like I said, they are still making way more than anyone should be entitled to. It doesn't come down to percentages, just raw hard numbers - and they are making more money than anybody else and that means it's coming from my pocket.

With the kind of cash reserves they have, they SHOULD NOT be passing their costs onto us...capitalistic or not.

The article mentions they should be seeing less profits in the third quarter - that's why ExxonMobil reports 75% increased profits over the last quarter, am I right? Did I miss something? Is the media brainwashing me? Or is it brainwashing you?

[brickman]

Again, profit percentages are the same, meaning their overhead costs were in proportion to their selling price for the products.

One explanation is that the price of oil was higher anyway. The revenue and profit numbers will be inflated as a result.

It is interesting that you stayed away from the whole hurricane thing...hmmm...no opinion there...I'm surprised!?! You are right, there is no conspiracy, the oil companies are just raising prices because they can, not because they have to. And there is no supply and demand when the entire economy is dependent on the commodity. And just because we have some of the lowest prices around globe is no justification to raise them. If I had a viable alternative to a gas powered automobile, it would be a different story. You know Bush has tight ties to the oil industry, don't you.....think maybe they might know this...think maybe Bush might just leave them alone. No supply and demand in control here......just raise the price as soon as you get any excuse to do so.

[psyshack]

paid $2.07 lastnight.

[anysia]

i get to hear cnbc, cnn, bloomberg, etc news all day long due to where i work. every stinking day i sit there and listen to the "experts" talk about and argue about what cuased higher prices, who's making the money, etc.

it's bs that the oil co's are not making any higher of a profit margin than in the past.

they are.

get over it.

exl, seriously, you're arguing against everything that common sense tells you. it REALLY comes across as though you are still arguing to argue. do you really believe even half of the arguments you've been posinhg over the past few weeks???

[EXLNavi]

I work in one of the top 10 of the fortune 500 in a financial company. I hear the same thing all day.

Math doesn't change. The percentages are still the same.

Sure, revenue and profit dollar values are up, because the price of the product went up due to market factors.

If you really want someone to blame, blame the Government for excessive taxation and legal hurdles for building more refineries.

Oh, and one more time - we are underpaying for gas in this country. NOt that I want the price to go up, but I am thankful that we have a free market to keep prices low.

Try going to Europe and buying gas.

But who am I kidding. I present the facts and all I seem to get in return are posts laced with emotion and personal attacks. "OMG the oil companies are raping us!! Oh noeesss!!!!!111!!11!1!ONE!1! How dare they make a profit!"

[EXLNavi]

It is interesting that you stayed away from the whole hurricane thing...hummm...no opinion there...I'm surprised!?!

Ok, since you asked, I'll bite.

The hurricane destroyed well located refining capacity. Refining capacity nationwide is already maxed out.

There was LOTS of panic buying and many stations ran out of gas. There was an upsurge in demand and therefore the price went up as a result. That's not even advanced economics, that's what you learn in elementary school.

You are right, there is no conspiracy, the oil companies are just raising prices because they can, not because they have to.

Blatantly ignore the article about them absorbing some of the cost themselves, now will you?

Worldwide demand for oil is way up. Demand in the US has risen 25%! Americans are now driving more miles and there are more cars on the road. Don't you think that has to account for at least some of it?

And there is no supply and demand when the entire economy is dependent on the commodity. And just because we have some of the lowest prices around globe is no justification to raise them. If I had a viable alternative to a gas powered automobile, it would be a different story. You know Bush has tight ties to the oil industry, don't you.....think maybe they might know this...think maybe Bush might just leave them alone. No supply and demand in control here......just raise the price as soon as you get any excuse to do so.

Why not? If the rest of the world raises the price of gas, why can't we?

I don't care that Bush has tight ties to the oil industry. If he was really interested in helping "BIG OIL" he should knock down environmental regs so that they can build more refineries.

Again, where are your facts and statistics to back this up? The anecdotal evidence and grand conspiracy theory isn't quite cutting it.

BTW, I'm no big fan of Bush. But that's no big secret, really.

[EXLNavi]

Again, the facts -

The company has a market capitalization of $358,380,000,000.

If the $8.7 billion quarterly profit remains consistent for 4 quarters in a row, that would amount to $34.8 billion in profit. That's not even 10% of market capitalization!

Not excessive in any manner whatsoever.

[anysia]

got stock in oil co's? :dunno:

need to blow steam off? :blah:

may i suggest a punching bag??

:nuts:

these rants only serve to make you more aggravated, frustrated, etc. you need a time out. a vacation as posted earlier. something. anything.

[EXLNavi]

got stock in oil co's? :dunno:

need to blow steam off? :blah:

may i suggest a punching bag??

:nuts:

these rants only serve to make you more aggravated, frustrated, etc. you need a time out. a vacation as posted earlier. something. anything.


No stock in the oil cos.

Already do the punching bag...

Not ranting, just the facts.

[princess]

Living where oil is pumped & refineries are I don't want any loosening of the enviromental regs!! They're slack enough. There's ways to make it & do it safely for all of us!!

Although the hurricanes are one of many things that have raised prices, they're not the cause.

Does anyone think that maybe the oil being used in the war may be counted as what we're using? I can't think of anyone driving more over the past year. If the jet fuel & stuff over there has been tallied with US's use, then of course it'll be higher!

Since the people in finance, politics & the media have been trying to figure all this out for a long time, I don't think any of us will have the answers. Quoted "facts" or not.

Ryan, this statement That's not even advanced economics, that's what you learn in elementary school. is on the verge of insulting! I know you're an intelligent person & I bet you can make your point without politely telling the ones that disagree that we're stupid! We may never really know why the prices keep rising for sure. In the meantime, lets disagree on our thoughts as to the problems are nicely. :grouphug:

[stiller fan]

ExxonMobil just posted the largest profit ever by a US company...ever....in the history of the country. They saw a 75% increase over the previous quarter!!! That is HUGE! A 75% increase in profits over three months has nothing to do with supply and demand....I will never believe that! I have been driving a car for over 25 years. During that time there have been many hurricanes that hit the same area as did Katrina. I have NEVER seen the price of gas go up because a hurricane hit the Gulf until Katrina...NEVER! They did it because they could and for no other reason. We are not taking about durable goods that anyone can take or leave. If you sell leather jackets and you price them too high, no one buys them...no one HAS to buy them....it is not a necessity to own a leather jacket, it is a choice. While not everyone has to buy gas, many of us do...it IS a necessity for me...whether gas is $1.00/gallon or $10.00/gallon, I have to buy it, otherwise I lose my job. Where does supply and demand dictate price here? No matter what, I have to buy it. Now I can do less driving. I can stop driving on the weekends to my daughters track meet or I can stop driving with my son to a local restaurant on Sunday to watch a football game that is not on TV. So I sacrifice all my pleasures so the oil executives can get rich and I still spend more now on gas even though I am driving less that I did a year ago? And this is OK? NO WAY! This sucks!! The oil companies are charging these prices because they can and no amount of "less demand" is going to change that. This is a necessary item in our economy and when the price of an energy source increases the way gas has over the last few months, the potential for a recession or worse yet, a depression, is great. Someone, and I only see the government doing this, needs to regulate and the control the oil industry so this type of price gouging does not happen! The profits all the oil companies posted for the last quarter were obscene!

Can you tell I'm a Little pissed off! :thumbsdow


completely agree with you there... :notworthy :thmsup: :yes: :wave:

[EXLNavi]

Living where oil is pumped & refineries are I don't want any loosening of the enviromental regs!! They're slack enough. There's ways to make it & do it safely for all of us!!

That one was sarcastic. However, the increase in the cost of building a refinery is directly tied into the increased cost of complying with environmental regulations.

Although the hurricanes are one of many things that have raised prices, they're not the cause.

Panic buying and resultant shortages were responsible for the prices. Not necessarily the hurricanes themselves. In other words, market trends.

Does anyone think that maybe the oil being used in the war may be counted as what we're using? I can't think of anyone driving more over the past year. If the jet fuel & stuff over there has been tallied with US's use, then of course it'll be higher!

Definitely. But a recent survey did say that people are driving more miles, and with a definite the increase in the number of vehicles on the road, I'd say we're consuming more.

Developing countries such as China and India are consuming more oil.

Worldwide demand for oil is up. So I'd say combination of factors.

Since the people in finance, politics & the media have been trying to figure all this out for a long time, I don't think any of us will have the answers. Quoted "facts" or not.

No one will know the truth. All I was doing was referencing the current situations with past trends. And it seems to be consistent.

In other words, all I am saying is that nothing has changed. That's all.

Ryan, this statement is on the verge of insulting! I know you're an intelligent person & I bet you can make your point without politely telling the ones that disagree that we're stupid! We may never really know why the prices keep rising for sure. In the meantime, lets disagree on our thoughts as to the problems are nicely. :grouphug:

It was really not intended to tell anyone that they're stupid. If anyone feels that way, please accept my apologies.

Anyway, the comment was made because many of these "the oil companies are screwing us over" threads all over the place are made entirely with emotion and with no reference whatsoever to any facts.

Why? Because the facts almost always disprove any conspiracy theory put forth.

Then when I put forward the facts, I get accused of having stock in oil cos or being paid off. Ironically, at this time I'm actually kicking myself for not investing in energy futures because they would have really paid off well.

So I'm not calling anyone stupid. I am saying that the issue should be approached with the facts, not just with emotion.

Anyway, I am not in favor of any Government regulation for gasoline prices because I feel that this will drive prices even higher. The mostly free market drives down prices, because the consumer is the one with choosing and buying power.

The Government cannot subsidize gasoline directly because it will impact general Government expenditure and more expenditure means more taxes. I don't want more taxes. I pay enough as it is. I'd rather pay at the pump than pay the IRS. I don't want to subsidize anyone's gasoline consumption. You want to consume? Pay up. Don't burden the taxpayers with your consumption.

The biggest reason to say NO to Government price controls/regulation on gasoline is because they have an absolutely atrocious record of regulating and managing anything. Things are better with the Government's hands out of it.

[princess]

For some of us blaming the oil companies is better than blaming the government or ourselves. If it's your gas card you're grumbling about paying off each month, then it's naturally going to be the gas company taking your wrath. Just human nature.

I blamed our electric comapny when our bills got really high over night a couple of years ago. In truth it was our then governor that had made stupid deals with Enron & the others. I still blame the electric company. They're they ones that delivered the bad news!

If we look at too many factors, it's hard to put the blame in a focused area. So blaming the oil companies is way easier than figuring it all out!! So when we're at Chevron & it's chinging up those dollars for a fill up.... they're going to be the ones at fault.

[EXLNavi]

For some of us blaming the oil companies is better than blaming the government or ourselves. If it's your gas card you're grumbling about paying off each month, then it's naturally going to be the gas company taking your wrath. Just human nature.

I blamed our electric comapny when our bills got really high over night a couple of years ago. In truth it was our then governor that had made stupid deals with Enron & the others. I still blame the electric company. They're they ones that delivered the bad news!

If we look at too many factors, it's hard to put the blame in a focused area. So blaming the oil companies is way easier than figuring it all out!! So when we're at Chevron & it's chinging up those dollars for a fill up.... they're going to be the ones at fault.


I agree with you, that's why I say emotion causes people to do these things.

But I get scared when people start calling for things like Government price controls on gasoline. Price controls hurt, they don't help. It's very easy to look at one piece of the picture and ignore the rest, which is what I think people are doing.

The piece they look at is the "record profits" by the oil companies which have been sensationalized in the media.

The part they ignore is the other factors, such as the cost and legal hurdles the companies face in order to bring the supply in line to where there is a comfortable margin between supply and demand. You hardly hear about that in the media because it doesn't make good news and doesn't help ratings.

It can take as much as 15 years to finish building a refinery, because of all the lawsuits by environmental groups and people who don't want them in their back yards. (The NIMBY folks). It can't be done overnight.

So honestly I think everyone in the private industry is doing the best they can.

I do believe that the Government is over-taxing gasoline. That needs to be addressed first, but I don't think that's likely.

[psyshack]

Reg. Unleaded $2.06 per. gal. today in Okmulgee, Ok.

China is indeed consuming fuels at the highist rate in there history. So is the USA.

I remember 15 years ago when I was in the oil biz. I was selling Oklhoma sweet crude at $7.00 a barrell and barley making enough to keep pumping the wells. And folks where bitching about gas prices then. when I started it was $27.00 a barrell. I had to shut down in the end, set on 1000 barrells of oil and sell when the prices came back up. Everybody forgets when the producers and refiners where going under.

The cost of production has went through the roof. Steel pipe has went up 100% in the last year. Bronze ie yellow metals have went up more than that. Ins. issues law suites. And to top it off,, oil has been over $60.00 per barrell. I guess with all the whinning and griping about gas and fuel costs in general its the oil companys fault we use it like water.

If you cant afford to drive, move closer to work, get a job closer to home. Or ride share. Wife and I live out of Tulsa 40 miles we ran two cars aday to Tulsa. When fuel was cheap we drank more than our share. Now that its went way up we had to change something. We ride in togather and found out we enjoyed it and saved a ton of money. I guess thats the oil companys fault e made a bad move in our life moving out of the metro into a small town. I dont think so.

Its not cheap to pump, refine and transport oil and fuel. It cost a bloody fortune. Ive seen rolls of toilet paper sell for $25.00 a roll! Well maint. down hole parts, wireline work, fracing, shooting a well all cost big bucks. All this has to be done on a well producing 1 barrell per day or one producing 5k barrells per hour.

When you can come up with 100k and take your stab at the patch,, let me know. Then you have earned a right to complain. And theres no quarntie your going to make money. NONE!!!

This thread has been so whinny,, big oils raping us. Dont buy the stuff if you cant play.

[brickman]

The hurricane destroyed well located refining capacity.
And this has never happened prior to this hurricane? I have never seen prices increase due to a hurricane in the gulf prior to Katrina.


There was LOTS of panic buying and many stations ran out of gas. There was an upsurge in demand and therefore the price went up as a result. That's not even advanced economics, that's what you learn in elementary school.
Prices in this area went up substantially before the hurricane even hit...I never saw any lines for gas until after that point. Seems the oil companies pushed that panic buying...no facts, just my opinion.



Blatantly ignore the article about them absorbing some of the cost themselves, now will you?

Worldwide demand for oil is way up. Demand in the US has risen 25%! Americans are now driving more miles and there are more cars on the road. Don't you think that has to account for at least some of it?
I have to find where I saw this piece of info but I saw somewhere that the actual volume consumption of gas for the third quarter was lower than the previous quarter. Doesn't sound like increased demand to me.



Why not? If the rest of the world raises the price of gas, why can't we?
A couple of words come to mind "monopoly" and maybe "collusion". It just seems strange to me that every gas station in a given area basically charges the same amount for gas. They go up and down in price together and not as a response to each others price change. There is no "free market" for this item...I have to ask again...how can there be "supply and demand" when we as a public have no choice in the matter...no alternative


I don't care that Bush has tight ties to the oil industry.
That statement just scares me!


Ryan, this statement
Quote:
That's not even advanced economics, that's what you learn in elementary school.

is on the verge of insulting! I know you're an intelligent person & I bet you can make your point without politely telling the ones that disagree that we're stupid! We may never really know why the prices keep rising for sure. In the meantime, lets disagree on our thoughts as to the problems are nicely.
Thanks for the concern Princess, but I can take it...it is only one man's opinion.

[brickman]

This thread has been so whinny,, big oils raping us. Dont buy the stuff if you cant play.

Show me a viable alternative to gas and I will buy it! Show me my choice....I just don't see another. :dunno:

[EXLNavi]

And this has never happened prior to this hurricane? I have never seen prices increase due to a hurricane in the gulf prior to Katrina.

Maybe because -

- a category 5 hasn't hit the gulf in recent history.

- Refinery capacity wasn't maxed out as it is now

Historical gas prices, and how they relate to world events:

http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/zFacts-Gasoline-Price.gif


Prices in this area went up substantially before the hurricane even hit...I never saw any lines for gas until after that point. Seems the oil companies pushed that panic buying...no facts, just my opinion.

Gas prices only hit above $3/gallon after the hurricane. They were climbing due to other factors before. Also, gasoline is a publicly traded commodity. The price will go up or down depending on market factors.


I have to find where I saw this piece of info but I saw somewhere that the actual volume consumption of gas for the third quarter was lower than the previous quarter. Doesn't sound like increased demand to me.

This isn't a Q3 '05 thing. Oil consumption has been steadily increasing for quite a while now.


A couple of words come to mind "monopoly" and maybe "collusion". It just seems strange to me that every gas station in a given area basically charges the same amount for gas. They go up and down in price together and not as a response to each others price change. There is no "free market" for this item...I have to ask again...how can there be "supply and demand" when we as a public have no choice in the matter...no alternative


Gas station owners have NO CONTROL over the price of gas. Their margins are already tightly controlled. State law forbids selling gasoline below cost in most places. Chains and franchises (BP, Shell etc) have restricted margins set by the corporate HQ. The price the owners pay for gas is the price on the day/time it's delivered. They have no control over this.

And yes, it's very much a free market here in the US because in other countries (like the one I lived in) the gas price is set by the GOVERNMENT in the national budget and does not go down with market forces. The Government already taxes the living bejeezus out of gasoline, do you really think that if they had control of the price they'd let it go down?

Again, we have some of the lowest gas prices in the world, and that's largely thanks to the free market. I'd like it to stay that way, thanks.

That statement just scares me!

Doesn't matter. There still is no grand conspiracy by "BIG OIL". Bush or not, oil consumption is still on the rise, and it is likely to continue that way unless people start driving less or we find some viable alternative fuel.

[EXLNavi]

One thing I noticed was that the price of gas went DOWN after 9/11.

Maybe, just maybe, could it be that airlines were not using fuel as much as before and as a result demand for oil was less, and the free market adjusted?

[brickman]

How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?

Maybe if I just keep saying it someone will hear me.....

How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

[EXLNavi]

How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?

Maybe if I just keep saying it someone will hear me.....

How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

Maybe I'm just imagining all of the brand name gas stations around here, as well as independent dealers with mostly different prices for gas. :dunno:

What exactly do you want?

[MichNYC]

Its supply and demand only to the extent that barrels of oil are traded, in a commodities market that works like the stock exchange. The price of oil can only go as high as companies are willing to pay. For us, as consumers, and the price at the pump, its not so much about supply and demand, because we don't have other, viable fuel alternatives. At the consumer level, prices are determined much more by the oil companies, and are only slightly influenced by supply and demand, as the cost per barrel of oil is only one of the factors oil companies look at when setting prices.

(P.S. - Ryan, your argument only works if we all buy in to the idea that capitalism is the ideal economic system, and that what exists on the worldwide commodities market is a true, capitalistic, free-market system. I'm not sure I agree with either of those suppositions. :lmao: )

[stevel]

How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?

Maybe if I just keep saying it someone will hear me.....

How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?
How can it be supply and demand when we have no choice?

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:
supply and demand because YOU choose to buy or not buy a more fuel efficient car. YOU choose wether or not to limit your driving. do you have a choice to you it or not? nope. but you do have to choice to use less of it, therefore reducing the demand if others do it also of course.

[princess]

The graph seems off a bit.... it didn't do over a dollar till the 80's. We were paying .65 for Mobil in Nov. 77. It was a record at the time. I only remember it since my prince was in Korea & I got the kid a the gas station to pump it for me at the self serv island. I was feeding the '67 Olds 442 & my measly gas funds had to last the 2 months he was gone. We lived on base at Beale AFB & the nearest town was Marysville, 20 miles away. I tried to stay in town after church on Sundays so I didn't waste the gas returning for a Sunday night service. Weird the little things we remember! :D

It rained a lot that Winter.... I had to wade to the car barefoot to load the kids up for church...Brandon was 18 months & Eric 6 weeks. But that's a whole 'nuther story....... :paranoid:

As Honda owners feel like we have done most that we can to ease the "supply & demand" issue. We drive cars that get decent mileage. So most would be like I have been..... looking blankly & saying "what else CAN I do?".

After 9-11 we were told to "roll" & we did!! :lmao: We started flying again, we started driving again. We started buying again.

Us, in the 'burbs, can't hop on a bus or rail for work. We gotta drive so we can eat. So here we bought pretty fuel efficient cars & still we here we're using too much!!

So we're stuck paying out a big chunk of those hard earned paychecks to whoever gets it when were at the pumps. Of course we're gonna be bitter!! I can always tell when my prince had to fill his Pilot's tank....grumble grumble grumble..... :yes:

Government regulating scares me....they're too stupid. They can't balance their own check book, I don't want them in mine!! :D

[EXLNavi]

Its supply and demand only to the extent that barrels of oil are traded, in a commodities market that works like the stock exchange. The price of oil can only go as high as companies are willing to pay. For us, as consumers, and the price at the pump, its not so much about supply and demand, because we don't have other, viable fuel alternatives. At the consumer level, prices are determined much more by the oil companies, and are only slightly influenced by supply and demand, as the cost per barrel of oil is only one of the factors oil companies look at when setting prices.

Not entirely true, since the retail price of gasoline is affected by other factors and not just the price of oil.

Supply and demand do affect retail gasoline, maybe not exactly like other consumer goods, but they do affect them nonetheless.

(P.S. - Ryan, your argument only works if we all buy in to the idea that capitalism is the ideal economic system, and that what exists on the worldwide commodities market is a true, capitalistic, free-market system. I'm not sure I agree with either of those suppositions. :lmao: )

Not necessarily. The US is the single largest user of oil in the entire world. We have the largest influence on our own gas prices. Other countries have state owned corporations that run every aspect of the operation.

I never did think that US consumers were solely responsible for higher gas prices. I just don't think that there is any grand conspiracy by "BIG OIL" to raise prices, like some people are implying. :paranoid:

I lived under regulated gasoline prices for years. Stations were owned by private individuals but the gas supply was from a state owned corporation. Every year the price went up, because the Government raised it in the budget. Our prices were on par with US prices but never lower. Government regulation kept it stable, but kept the price HIGH because it never would fluctuate with market demand. And this was for dirty, leaded gasoline, which was much cheaper than the unleaded, oxygenated blends we see today in the US.

[MichNYC]

Not entirely true, since the retail price of gasoline is affected by other factors and not just the price of oil.

Supply and demand do affect retail gasoline, maybe not exactly like other consumer goods, but they do affect them nonetheless.

Gasoline is considered, economically speaking, to be an inelastic product. Which means (for those who aren't economics experts or teachers) that the price does not fluctuate greatly with supply and demand. All items that are classified as necessities are inelastic. This is because there are no (or very few) viable substitutes for necessities.

If the price of milk goes up, demand doesn't change, supply doesn't change - the market maintains itself at an equilibrium point, where supply equals demand; the only people who benefit from that price increase are the dairy farmers, or those who process the milk. If milk was $5/gallon, most of us would still buy milk, and probably in the same quantity that we do now.

However, if the price of butter goes up, demand will drop significantly. This is because butter is elastic, due to the existence of a very easily accessible substitute - margarine. People will shift their buying power to margarine if the price of butter gets too high.

Gas is like milk - as the price increased, we didn't see a huge drop in demand, and the market has remained at equilibrium (except in the disaster-stricken regions where there were panic-induced gas shortages). If there HAD been a drop in demand, then following basic economic principles, the price would have come back down until the market was back in equilibrium.

The effect of supply and demand on gasoline pricing is negligible. As you pointed out, the stations themselves have little to no control over pricing - its REGULATED by.... BIG OIL, through margin requirements, etc. And the Big Oil companies are selling gas to their franchise stations at a PROFIT. So Big Oil does, in fact, have a large influence on the pricing of gas.

Is it really better for the regulation of pricing to come from the industry itself rather than the government? Maybe, if the industry is honest and stuff. But if, as true capitalists, they're out to make a profit no matter the cost, how does that help the consumer?

Not necessarily. The US is the single largest user of oil in the entire world. We have the largest influence on our own gas prices. Other countries have state owned corporations that run every aspect of the operation.

I never did think that US consumers were solely responsible for higher gas prices. I just don't think that there is any grand conspiracy by "BIG OIL" to raise prices, like some people are implying. :paranoid:

Just so I'm clear - are you arguing that OPEC is not a cartel, and does not artificially inflate oil prices simply for profit? And that the artificial inflation of oil prices (and the random control of access to the oil supply - increasing or decreasing daily output seemingly on a whim) does not get directly transferred to the consumers of all petroleum products world-wide? (And yes, I'm aware that Big Oil is not OPEC, but the two are pretty closely linked!)

[brickman]

Gasoline is considered, economically speaking, to be an inelastic product. Which means (for those who aren't economics experts or teachers) that the price does not fluctuate greatly with supply and demand. All items that are classified as necessities are inelastic. This is because there are no (or very few) viable substitutes for necessities.

If the price of milk goes up, demand doesn't change, supply doesn't change - the market maintains itself at an equilibrium point, where supply equals demand; the only people who benefit from that price increase are the dairy farmers, or those who process the milk. If milk was $5/gallon, most of us would still buy milk, and probably in the same quantity that we do now.

However, if the price of butter goes up, demand will drop significantly. This is because butter is elastic, due to the existence of a very easily accessible substitute - margarine. People will shift their buying power to margarine if the price of butter gets too high.

Gas is like milk - as the price increased, we didn't see a huge drop in demand, and the market has remained at equilibrium (except in the disaster-stricken regions where there were panic-induced gas shortages). If there HAD been a drop in demand, then following basic economic principles, the price would have come back down until the market was back in equilibrium.

The effect of supply and demand on gasoline pricing is negligible. As you pointed out, the stations themselves have little to no control over pricing - its REGULATED by.... BIG OIL, through margin requirements, etc. And the Big Oil companies are selling gas to their franchise stations at a PROFIT. So Big Oil does, in fact, have a large influence on the pricing of gas.

Is it really better for the regulation of pricing to come from the industry itself rather than the government? Maybe, if the industry is honest and stuff. But if, as true capitalists, they're out to make a profit no matter the cost, how does that help the consumer?



Just so I'm clear - are you arguing that OPEC is not a cartel, and does not artificially inflate oil prices simply for profit? And that the artificial inflation of oil prices (and the random control of access to the oil supply - increasing or decreasing daily output seemingly on a whim) does not get directly transferred to the consumers of all petroleum products world-wide? (And yes, I'm aware that Big Oil is not OPEC, but the two are pretty closely linked!)

Thank you for explaining so eloquently what I could not. :thmsup:

[EXLNavi]

Gasoline is considered, economically speaking, to be an inelastic product. Which means (for those who aren't economics experts or teachers) that the price does not fluctuate greatly with supply and demand. All items that are classified as necessities are inelastic. This is because there are no (or very few) viable substitutes for necessities.

If the price of milk goes up, demand doesn't change, supply doesn't change - the market maintains itself at an equilibrium point, where supply equals demand; the only people who benefit from that price increase are the dairy farmers, or those who process the milk. If milk was $5/gallon, most of us would still buy milk, and probably in the same quantity that we do now.

However, if the price of butter goes up, demand will drop significantly. This is because butter is elastic, due to the existence of a very easily accessible substitute - margarine. People will shift their buying power to margarine if the price of butter gets too high.

Gas is like milk - as the price increased, we didn't see a huge drop in demand, and the market has remained at equilibrium (except in the disaster-stricken regions where there were panic-induced gas shortages). If there HAD been a drop in demand, then following basic economic principles, the price would have come back down until the market was back in equilibrium.

The effect of supply and demand on gasoline pricing is negligible.

I was agreeing with you a bit until the last part.

Supply and demand HAS affected the price of gas, but mostly over the long term.

In the long term, gasoline becomes a largely elastic commodity.

In fact, even in short term situations, gasoline does show itself to be largely elastic. Memorial day and other travel holidays see a rise in the prices. More demand and the supply remains the same. They rise, but they go back down after that time because demand goes back to normal.

Panic buying due to Katrina caused prices to go up. Consumers didn't panic buy as much with Rita, so prices remained stable and even dropped a little.

And one more thing - higher prices have caused gasoline to take on a more elastic persona. People are actually looking at ways to reduce their use of gasoline, whether it be carpooling, transit or telecommuting. Many people in my office started telecommuting because of the high price of gas. (unfortunately, I can't do that as often as they do. :( ) Demand dropped significantly, and prices are following, although admittedly a bit slowly.

As you pointed out, the stations themselves have little to no control over pricing - its REGULATED by.... BIG OIL, through margin requirements, etc. And the Big Oil companies are selling gas to their franchise stations at a PROFIT. So Big Oil does, in fact, have a large influence on the pricing of gas.

This is true only for franchised gas stations, not independents.

Is it really better for the regulation of pricing to come from the industry itself rather than the government? Maybe, if the industry is honest and stuff. But if, as true capitalists, they're out to make a profit no matter the cost, how does that help the consumer?

Gasoline price regulation by the Government will never work. Refiners will simply export their gasoline rather than sell it at a loss in the USA. There will be shortages, gas lines, and rationing, because selling gasoline in the US will no longer be a profitable business. It will end up hurting the economy and consumers instead of helping them.

And again, we come to this whole question of honesty. Is the industry honest? Hmm... They are publicly traded companies. Gasoline and oil are publicly traded commodities. Everything is out in the open. I don't trust them 100% but I really don't believe in a grand conspiracy. (Yes, I am aware that publicly traded companies have been involved in scandals, but they have been people stealing from the company, not from consumers, and many of these people are now headed straight to jail...)

The notion that gasoline retailers and oil companies are in collusion to raise prices is an urban legend. Prices vary from station to station. Within my local work area, less than 2 miles apart I can find two Exxon stations that are 20 cents different. Sometimes one is higher than the other, and other times the reverse is true. Sometimes they are equal.

The reason prices may be equal is because of the way gasoline is priced. The price you pay is the price on the day/time that the gas is delivered, not from the time it leaves the refinery. And yes, gas stations may have margins to abide by, but that doesn't mean there is no choice. Independent dealers don't have any such restrictions from the oil companies. They can sell gas for whatever price they want, subject to applicable state law (i.e. many states prohibit gas stations from selling at a loss) and ironically they were among the first to raise their prices post-katrina. "BIG OIL" gas stations remained consistent until the gas ran out and they took their next delivery from the tank wagon.

Furthermore, the historical figures I have shown in previous posts do show that profits are in line with what they normally are. In fact, the oil industry's profits are actually less than those of other industries.



Just so I'm clear - are you arguing that OPEC is not a cartel, and does not artificially inflate oil prices simply for profit? And that the artificial inflation of oil prices (and the random control of access to the oil supply - increasing or decreasing daily output seemingly on a whim) does not get directly transferred to the consumers of all petroleum products world-wide? (And yes, I'm aware that Big Oil is not OPEC, but the two are pretty closely linked!)

OPEC has nothing to do with it. Yes, I am aware that OPEC does artificially control prices, but my argument is that it has nothing to do with a grand conspiracy by "BIG OIL" to screw over the US consumer.

In fact, OPEC countries have increased production in response to US requests to do so.

But does OPEC really have that much of an influence in the US market? I don't think so. Right now most of our crude has been domestic. We really don't import that much oil, at least not enough to have a significant impact (although some sources like Al-Jazeera would disagree... :lmao: )

Historically, attempts at regulating the price of fossil fuel has not fared very well.

Twice during the 70's, artificial basements in prices were created, and twice those artificial barriers created higher fuel costs (much, much higher, actually).

Any time we create artificial barriers on a commodity like fuel, it is regressive in nature. It hurts the lowest class the most, and will put a heavy burden on them across the nation, for absolutely no good reason.

[psyshack]

Show me a viable alternative to gas and I will buy it! Show me my choice....I just don't see another. :dunno:

Change your life style??? Have to drive to far in for work??? MOVE closer to work. Or get a job closer to home. Just dont buy the stuff. If you base a chunk of your life on the price of gas you have really screwed up bad.

Wife and I are riding into Tulsa together now. We are not running two cars 80 to 130 miles a day each anymore. That alone has cut our fuel bill better than half and we arent wearing out two cars at 28k miles each a year. We are prepairing to buy a civic. Will be a Si more than likely. Even it will get better mpg than the Ranger.

If we cant commute to Tulsa anymore so be it. Our house isnt the best. But its paided for. Im not going to put myself in a positon that I have to depend on fuel cost as a factor in my life or what Im going to do for a living.

We burn more fuel in the US than anybody else in the world. Then whine when we are the pig causing some of the problem.

At work our company trucks are all half ton gas guzzlers. If I have to go over to ,,, say ,,, Wal-Mart world headquarters in Bentonville to help the over educated idiots fig. out why the system isnt working and there servers are going down. ( Its always the pumps fault ) i have to drive that damn chevy truck over with no need for such a rig at all!! Ive begged them to buy us afew civics or accords. hell chevy cobalts. We dont need to be running the trucks like we do. As the owner and bean counter are whining about fuel cost.

I dont like to see high fuel prices. Its not going to ruin or even really upset the wife's and my life. It bothers us to see our children struggle. There doing the collage thing, young family thing, trying to stake there first claims in life. But they will learn valuble things. They call all the time with stuff like, " God milks high, no wonder you all made us take vit. D and calciam." Now more than ever they know why I made them learn how to change the oil and filters in there cars. Yes my girls can turn a wrench.

I dont see anybody in here ranting about the price of pharmacuticals, clothing, furniture, insurance. All of which are even higher profit margins than fuel.

I know,, the cure to the problem,,, get big goverment in big oil. That will fix it right up <<< where do they come from. ( shaking head )

[brickman]

Change your life style??? Have to drive to far in for work??? MOVE closer to work. Or get a job closer to home. Just dont buy the stuff. If you base a chunk of your life on the price of gas you have really screwed up bad.

And this will save me money?? Spend several thousands of dollars now to save $10 or $20 a week. Look...I'm not saying I'm going broke buying gas but what I am saying is that the oil companies certainly have a say in what the cost of their product is and you won't ever convince me that some of the huge price increase we just saw wasn't due to the oil companies exploiting a situation that benefited them. As I said before, when you take a product so entwined into the economy as gas (and don't forget about the 40% increase in natural gas we are supposed to see) and raise the price of it by 50% basically overnight, many people who need time to adjust don't have it, discretionary spending stops and the economy suffers.

ExxonMobil made almost 10 billion dollars in three months....10 billion! I don't think some people realize how much money this is...it is huge...I don't care about percentages being the same. The fact remains this was profit...all the bills were paid, all the employees were paid and they still put 10 billion to the bottom line. When company A has sales of $1,000 and makes a profit of $100, that is not the same as company B that has sales of $100,000,000,000 and makes $10,000,000,000....sorry but company B is in a whole different situation than company A. I can't even enter the number 100,000,000,000 on my calculator.....I really don't think some people realize how much money that is....the oil companies could have gone a little slower with the increases and maybe only made 5 billion....but I guess that's too small a percentage.

[anysia]

Gasoline is considered, economically speaking, to be an inelastic product. Which means (for those who aren't economics experts or teachers) that the price does not fluctuate greatly with supply and demand. All items that are classified as necessities are inelastic. This is because there are no (or very few) viable substitutes for necessities.

If the price of milk goes up, demand doesn't change, supply doesn't change - the market maintains itself at an equilibrium point, where supply equals demand; the only people who benefit from that price increase are the dairy farmers, or those who process the milk. If milk was $5/gallon, most of us would still buy milk, and probably in the same quantity that we do now.

However, if the price of butter goes up, demand will drop significantly. This is because butter is elastic, due to the existence of a very easily accessible substitute - margarine. People will shift their buying power to margarine if the price of butter gets too high.

Gas is like milk - as the price increased, we didn't see a huge drop in demand, and the market has remained at equilibrium (except in the disaster-stricken regions where there were panic-induced gas shortages). If there HAD been a drop in demand, then following basic economic principles, the price would have come back down until the market was back in equilibrium.

The effect of supply and demand on gasoline pricing is negligible. As you pointed out, the stations themselves have little to no control over pricing - its REGULATED by.... BIG OIL, through margin requirements, etc. And the Big Oil companies are selling gas to their franchise stations at a PROFIT. So Big Oil does, in fact, have a large influence on the pricing of gas.

Is it really better for the regulation of pricing to come from the industry itself rather than the government? Maybe, if the industry is honest and stuff. But if, as true capitalists, they're out to make a profit no matter the cost, how does that help the consumer?



Just so I'm clear - are you arguing that OPEC is not a cartel, and does not artificially inflate oil prices simply for profit? And that the artificial inflation of oil prices (and the random control of access to the oil supply - increasing or decreasing daily output seemingly on a whim) does not get directly transferred to the consumers of all petroleum products world-wide? (And yes, I'm aware that Big Oil is not OPEC, but the two are pretty closely linked!)
thank gawd for the person who wanted to phrase it via economic terms and such. those phrases make my brain "hurt", but things like "inelastic" are some of the very important things to consider here. :notworthy

[anysia]

ps~being forced to change your lifestyle because of the cost of gas is bad.

however, i think more people are more concerned about the inflating gas prices simply because of the rate of inflation and the reasons why-not because they cannot afford to fill up their gas tank any more.

[EXLNavi]

ExxonMobil made almost 10 billion dollars in three months....10 billion! I don't think some people realize how much money this is...it is huge...I don't care about percentages being the same. The fact remains this was profit...all the bills were paid, all the employees were paid and they still put 10 billion to the bottom line. When company A has sales of $1,000 and makes a profit of $100, that is not the same as company B that has sales of $100,000,000,000 and makes $10,000,000,000....sorry but company B is in a whole different situation than company A. I can't even enter the number 100,000,000,000 on my calculator.....I really don't think some people realize how much money that is....the oil companies could have gone a little slower with the increases and maybe only made 5 billion....but I guess that's too small a percentage.

Firstly, let me draw your attention to this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/27/AR2005102700449.html?sub=AR) Washington Post article, where we can get some facts and figures.

10 billion dollars sounds like a fantastic amount, but the oil companies aren't really making that much per dollar of sales. Compare to a few other industries -

Exxon Mobil - 9.8 cents/dollar
McDonald's Corp. - 13.8 cents/dollar
Coca-Cola Co. - 21.2 cents/dollar

If you break down the profits into actual products, retail gasoline isn't even a blip on their radar. $7.3 billion from production, natural-gas and power-marketing business. Refining, distribution and marketing earned $2.1 billion. Exxon Mobil's chemical business brought in $472 million.

$2.1 billion for retail gasoline (among other things) isn't an awful lot of money.

If you want to take aim at someone for the rising price of gas, try the Government. They've been taxing the hell out of gasoline (yet somehow our roads don't seem to get fixed...) for years now.

[EXLNavi]

ps~being forced to change your lifestyle because of the cost of gas is bad.

however, i think more people are more concerned about the inflating gas prices simply because of the rate of inflation and the reasons why-not because they cannot afford to fill up their gas tank any more.


Adjusted for inflation, gas isn't going up all that much.

Texas gas prices, adjusted for inflation in April, 1979 dollars:

http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.png

[princess]

The problem with comparing McDonalds or Coke companies is that they are nessecities! If a coke or burger goes up, I don't HAVE to change my life.... if gas goes up I do.

Even I have been driving gently lately... it bores me to death. I now hate doing errands & driving my car!! I am now at 20 mpg in town though. I"ll be going out again today & have had about as much of the soft foot as I can stand! I'll have much lower mpg when I come home! :naughty:

It's not that gas is making me go broke....it's that there's less to put in here! And we all have out priorities!!! :lmao:

[hermann]

Regular unleaded $1.99 today at a few stations in Kansas City area. :banana: :thmsup: :dunno: :paranoid:

[brickman]

The problem with comparing McDonald's or Coke companies is that they are not necessities! If a coke or burger goes up, I don't HAVE to change my life.... if gas goes up I do.

This has been my point all along...i don't have to buy a coke or a McDonald's burger but...and this is a big but...I have to buy gas....even if I cut back, I still HAVE to buy it.

[EXLNavi]

The problem with comparing McDonalds or Coke companies is that they are nessecities! If a coke or burger goes up, I don't HAVE to change my life.... if gas goes up I do.

Even I have been driving gently lately... it bores me to death. I now hate doing errands & driving my car!! I am now at 20 mpg in town though. I"ll be going out again today & have had about as much of the soft foot as I can stand! I'll have much lower mpg when I come home! :naughty:

It's not that gas is making me go broke....it's that there's less to put in here! And we all have out priorities!!! :lmao:


That's the beauty of a truly free market - necessities aren't traded that differently from non-necessities.

But let's see a few more necessities (Yes, I know the graph is from an oil company website):

http://www.conocophillips.com/NR/rdonlyres/913F0601-03DA-432D-86C2-E439DAB0BB87/0/OilProfitsVsOtherIndust3rdQ2004Revised.gif

These are Q3 2004 figures, but look at how many other industries, including necessities like healthcare, pharmaceuticals and the financial industry make. They make way more per dollar than the oil industry.

[MichNYC]

Ryan, I'm not going to keep arguing with you, because I'm starting to think Val is right and you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, or so hell-bent on being "right" that you can't fathom that someone else is making a good point.

Gas is inelastic. Period. Every economics class I've ever taken (and thats a lot of them) has said so. Every economics textbook I have to teach from has said so. Even the newspaper articles I looked up last night said so, when I was trying to find a graph of the gasoline demand curve to post in here. I only found one article that said anything to the contrary, and it said "gas may be *slightly* more elastic than economists previously believed." But it is generally accepted that gas is inelastic, both in the short term and the long term.

Second, to quote any major news organization as "fact" is misleading at best. Articles reflect the bias of the writer. Show me any article that has "facts" that support your opinion, and I can find one with "facts" to support mine. The articles provide information, which all of us educated people can use to help influence our opinions and perspectives. But its rarely fact.

[MichNYC]

These are Q3 2004 figures, but look at how many other industries, including necessities like healthcare, pharmaceuticals and the financial industry make. They make way more per dollar than the oil industry.

Since when is the financial industry a "necessity"? I have a choice how to invest my money, and what company to invest it with. There are viable alternatives. Healthcare - sure, I need it, but I can choose my providers, I can seek second opinions. The pharmaceutical industry is another one that engages in artificial price inflation and creates monopolies, so its hardly a fair comparison. For medicines that have generics available - i.e. viable alternatives - the prices are low. For other medicines, we see inelastic demand. Now you're really arguing apples to oranges....

[princess]

Well, we also feel ripped off by healthcare, pharmaceuticals, banks, insurance co., etc..... so why should we feel any different about oil companies!?

In therory the pharmaceuticals reinvest in research for better meds. Healthcare reinvests in better testing equiptment. Banks reinvest in the community.

[EXLNavi]

Ryan, I'm not going to keep arguing with you, because I'm starting to think Val is right and you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, or so hell-bent on being "right" that you can't fathom that someone else is making a good point.

Gas is inelastic. Period. Every economics class I've ever taken (and thats a lot of them) has said so. Every economics textbook I have to teach from has said so. Even the newspaper articles I looked up last night said so, when I was trying to find a graph of the gasoline demand curve to post in here. I only found one article that said anything to the contrary, and it said "gas may be *slightly* more elastic than economists previously believed." But it is generally accepted that gas is inelastic, both in the short term and the long term.

Second, to quote any major news organization as "fact" is misleading at best. Articles reflect the bias of the writer. Show me any article that has "facts" that support your opinion, and I can find one with "facts" to support mine. The articles provide information, which all of us educated people can use to help influence our opinions and perspectives. But its rarely fact.

I did say that gas is inelastic. I did say that it still has some elastic properties.

Supply and demand, whether actual or projected, does affect pricing, whether it be seasonal or over the long term.

And I never quote articles as facts. The articles do contain facts in them, readily accessible instead of digging through portfolios and the like. (Show me where I quoted any article as a fact, and I'll gladly apologize.)

Speaking of the media, much of the misinformation about oil company profits and the "screwing over" of the American population by "BIG OIL" has been largely caused by the media. Sensationalist reporting, and opinions, the very thing you are complaining about. People get emotional about this issue because it directly affects their consumption. The media fuels this emotion because they know it will sell news.

But economic principles are really not why I am concerned about gas price regulation.

I've lived under regulated gasoline pricing for over 20 years. In fact I've lived under regulated pricing for quite a lot of things, including car parts and telecommunications. It did nothing for the consumers because people were still whining about the high price of gas, and often lashing out at the Government for not letting the free market decide, like they do in more industrialized countries like the United States.

The only place where I've seen first hand where regulated pricing has made consumers happy is in Venezuela. But in Venezuela the Government subsidizes their prices so deeply it's almost as if the Government is paying for gas. If we were to do that here, with our consumption, we'd have to raise taxes. And I'm not ready to pay more than I already do to subsidize someone else's gas bill.

The fact is that Government regulation historically never was and will not ever be good for the consumers. Period.

So again I ask, what do you people want? I haven't heard one answer to that question. If you complain, suggest something that's better than a free market.

[EXLNavi]

Since when is the financial industry a "necessity"? I have a choice how to invest my money, and what company to invest it with. There are viable alternatives.

If the financial industry stops dead in its tracks, I can guarantee you that everything will stop cold.

It's much bigger than you investing your money. It's more than just investment - it runs the entire gamut from banking to credit to stocks, bonds and the like.

It's a necessity in the world we live in. So much that Governments rely heavily on investors for revenue (and I don't mean taxes).

Healthcare - sure, I need it, but I can choose my providers, I can seek second opinions.

And you can't do that with gasoline now?

The pharmaceutical industry is another one that engages in artificial price inflation and creates monopolies, so its hardly a fair comparison. For medicines that have generics available - i.e. viable alternatives - the prices are low. For other medicines, we see inelastic demand. Now you're really arguing apples to oranges....

Generics cost less because the companies manufacturing them do not have to spend money on research like big name pharmaceutical companies. And not all drugs have generics yet. They have to wait until patents expire.

When I worked at one of the big name pharmaceutical companies, I saw them spending lots of time and money in clinical trials for new drugs that were being developed.

They have huge facilities with many researchers. There were times we had to deal with literally thousands of users at a time on one single site. This stuff costs money. R&D isn't cheap. It's a huge one time cost per product and a small maintenance amount that has to be recouped.

[EXLNavi]

Well, we also feel ripped off by healthcare, pharmaceuticals, banks, insurance co., etc..... so why should we feel any different about oil companies!?

In therory the pharmaceuticals reinvest in research for better meds. Healthcare reinvests in better testing equiptment. Banks reinvest in the community.

But princess, I've seen similar comments targeted towards pharmaceutical companies, that they're ripping off people etc.

The bottom line is that when you're big business, you can never win. :dunno:

When you follow true to the principles of libertarianism, many times you can't win either... :lmao:

[anysia]

But princess, I've seen similar comments targeted towards pharmaceutical companies, that they're ripping off people etc.

The bottom line is that when you're big business, you can never win. :dunno:

when you're a big business, you can win.

when you create monopolies, you loose.

the bigger the business is and the less competition there is=the potential for monopolies to form.

[EXLNavi]

when you're a big business, you can win.

when you create monopolies, you loose.

the bigger the business is and the less competition there is=the potential for monopolies to form.

There is more than one place to buy gas, and the price varies around town, even. There is no monopoly!

Don't believe me? Head over to http://www.madisongasprices.com/

Highest is $2.51 and the lowest is $2.28. Don't tell me there aren't options for getting cheaper gas, because there are.

[anysia]

3 main gas stations in town-mobil, bp, and pdq.

the general area i travel in was at 2.41 on my way to work this morning. some have apparently gone down to 2.38 since then.

some of the high and low prices are a decent distance to travel just to save a few cents on gas.

in **most** scenarios, you run into every gas station within a certain radius is going to be within a few pennies of each other.

try to deny it. go ahead. i witnessed the same in pittsburgh. they know most people will not go out of theirway to get gas. the bulk of the population may d