tranny recall

[princess]

On the 02-04 Oddys, 03-04 Pilots & MDX:

The trannys aren't getting enough lubrication & over heating. They are sending the dealers tiny video cameras to stuff in & get pictures. If there's already damage it means a new tranny. If not, it means an added oil injection system.

Under 15K will likely be the add on.

We have 20K on our Pilot now. (well, nearly) If we have NO signs of damage even starting it may mean that those frequent tedious fluid changes did work! Our belief is that the tiny, unfiltered particles block some of the smallest passages & effect the lubrication.

I'll keep you posted when our's gets it's inspection.

The cameras won't arrive until late April & the parts right after that. The letter to owners will start mid May.:(

They have told the dealers not to sell any more Odysseys, Pilots or MDX's until they have been inspected!!

Although nothing has been reported, a locked up tranny can occur & that COULD cause a crash.

The good thing about Honda is that they NEVER wait until someone gets hurt!!:)

[benjamming]

Honda just can't build an automatic transmission. This is not new technology. There is no excuse for these problems. I will not be getting another Honda unless it's a manual.

[princess]

I don't agree. Nearly any problems have been caught & dealt with unlike many companies that just ignore them & wait for all the customer complaints then don't cover it out of warranty. Honda extended some to over 100K. Many companies have had problems, we just hear about the Honda ones because they are up front about it.

We've had tons of Hondas & have seen no difference in the longevity of manuals vs. AT. The newer ones do require more maintaince than the previous ones to stay healthy. I just wish they'd put it back into the maintaince schedule! That would've solved the problems with the last 2 generations!

:)

[Inspector1]

Let's see if Memory serves me right... 88 up Gm 700R4 4L60 & 80E trannys---Problems Ford --75 and up problems Chrysler--- every thing after the old Torqueflight727 =problems... When I was in the repair end our company was Jasper Eng & Transmissions 2nd Largest customer in the nation(mid 80's to Mid 90's) Thank goodness for the big 3 for having so many problems .. = lots of money for Jasper= have their own Nascar team.. Unless you have been in the repair business for several years(20+) you do not realize how many problems the domestics have... Now that the imports(namely Honda) have such a large market share you are going to see more problems** Compounded by the fact that the Internet has connected so many people that would have never talked before about problems..
Now if 3% failure withing a certain model occurs everyone starts talking about it.... And add all the Union people that here about it and the bad news and rumors fly.... You do not here them talking about all their failures.. And rightly so: who would want to give up their 80k a year job sitting around and taking it easy... OH I forgot to secure those bolts on the last 30 vehicles... it's ok someone down the line will catch it.. OH that guy is clocked in but He left the plant... Oh tell a supervisor... He comes back to work and is repremanded.... W/ Union steward present... Ok hold out your hand so I can slap it....... Now you get 3 days off w/pay ...bad boy... Now those 30 vehicles are put out on the road and wheels fall off of 10 and Kill 25 people... Oh well --settle out of court for 25 mil and just hike the price on vehicle/ Buy supply's from Mexico for less... It's part of doing Business:scratch:
Sorry for the rant ** But sometimes I feel it has to be said**

You will also find that Honda owners are more likely involved in forums and I have yet to find a Mazda forum that talks about MPV's?
Personnel History
67 Chevy Impala 65k threw rod 85k frame rusted out
75 Ford F-150 70k --Transmission Gone
81 Toyota P/U - 85k in 2 years no problems kick myself for trading this 1 four the next vehicle(heck I was young and wanted a fast car)
83 Mustang GT 35k -50k bought used Rear main oil leak/heater core(those are a bear to replace)
89 Chevy Silverado 45k Trans gone( company vehicle)
91 Olds Achieva-- 1st one rear clip leak into trunk-- Edge program to replace with a new car... brake pulsation at 15k
94 GMC Jimmy -- Trans started blowing fluid @ 37k went to GM sorry out of warranty... Traded the puppy the next day
96-Accord-- 180k+ no problems sold last year
98 Volvo V70AWD -- Numerous electrical problems/all door panels leather separated.. Fortunately a lease vehicle... GONE
01 MPV and 02 Accord-- current....
MPV had in last month... sway bar bushings/l sun visor/Spare tire shield /front brake caliper pins replaced(popping) all under warranty because it runs out next Month.....all above items squeaks and rattles except for sun visor. vanity mirror cover hinge broken...
So after this long post I hope you get my drift that Honda is not the only 1 with Problems + you will find a lot of happy owners if you ask..... Just unhappy ones will tell you without asking...

Sorry for the length.. But I could go for Hours on the things I have seen that you would not believe!!!!

I1:)

[princess]

amen!

[benjamming]

Easy there folks. I do realize I'm on a Honda board, but that doesn't necessarily mean than when I talk bad about Honda I'm talking good about Detroit. I have no plans to buy from the Big Three for many years, possibly ever. I'm glad I bought my Accord. Next time I will probably buy a Camry though. Although Toyota is going the way of disposable vehicles as well. For example, the new Toyota V8s with automatic don't have a dipstick for the tranny. They don't ever recommend changing the fluid unless towing.

What makes me very mad about Honda is that they should have at least extended the warranty to all 6th generations & not just 00-01.

Granted, there are worse alternatives to Honda, but that doesn't make Honda the god of the automotive world where they can do no wrong. They need to be called out on it before it gets worse. It appears they are testing the waters with what their loyal customers will accept.

[Inspector1]

You ever here of 3.0L V-6 Sludge issue (Toyota).....
Talk about not covering warranty problems....nobodys perfect and I am not saying they are but it seems everyone screams bloody murder about this 6th Gen Trans issue.. I guess if you did a cross the board check of Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry owners you would find that Honda has a larger younger more computer(internet) savvy owners that love to get on forums and rant about how badly they are treated and not taken care of before they address issue with Honda.....
Plus among the half dozen forums I frequent(A Larger Majority)of the people with tranny problems have the mods list as long as your arm and tend to have the Drive it like you stole It attitude or Fast and Furious mentality... I say if you want a race car buy a race car.... but don't scream about it breaking if you use it like it's not intended to be used......



I1:)

[princess]

Well, you're almost forgiven.....but a Camry?? Just kidding.....

Several years ago, to feed the family during a strike, my prince worked at a little shop owned by the brother of the guy that owns a few Honda dealers. They worked on Hondas (Acuras) & Toyotas (Lexus). At the time Toyota was having a MAJOR problem with their V6's. Not a noise or vibration, a fulll fledged break. I can't remember what they figured it out to be.

They're all just machines.

I'm not partial to Hondas because they're better than the rest. It's more because the company...so far... has stood behind their product. It really does impress me when they discover a flaw & send out a letter to say "come on in & we'll fix it".

The newest CEO has cut more corners than they should. It shows. Which is what's so frustrating for loyalists to any product. Someone can just revamp & screw it all up!:rolleyes:

I am thankful that there does seem to be a fix for this tranny thing!! We'll see.........:(

[BenjiBoy650]

Are all the recalled vehicles getting the additional lubrication system or just those that are not getting new trannies? This is really good news for me, looking to buy an Odyssey :)

Actually if you cruise the Odyssey boards you can find considerable problems with the new 5-speed as well. However it has not been a lockup problem (that was the 4 speed in the 99-01, 4 --> 1 downshift on the freeway). Instead, the new 5 speed trannies have been slipping from a dead stop. So for instance if I was at a left turn where oncoming traffic doesn't yield and I decide to try and beat an oncoming car, my transmission might slip and move at approx. 3MPH @ WOT. Well that might not be so good....

Hmm just checked over at the Ody boards and they're already all over this. They've posted multiple articles in which Honda claims there have been 10 reported transmission failures...which is total bull. I think if you ask the Prince, his dealer alone has replaced much more than 10 trannies :) The articles say that there is a lubrication problem with the gears and bearing(s?) where the gears may possibly make noise (after they break, maybe causing lockup).

Also I agree with I1 on the 6th gen issue. Most of the people who end up grenading their tranny tend to have mods. It's ridiculous, there's a "challenge" on the Honduh.com board for (mostly) automatic 6th gens, to see if they can stay under 3000RPM for 24 hours. One guy who said he "took care" of his tranny just to have it blow up at 46K also had 20" rims and no fluid changes. Took care of it real well I see...

[benjamming]

I never claimed that Toyota, Nissan, etc. never had problems. Toyota only required that you show proof of changing the oil once a year in the V6 sludge issue. They started pulling a GM here & wanted to deny a sludge problem at first. I simply stay away from a Toyota V6. I don't know which Honda product to buy so that I won't have a transmission problem - they're everywhere. And I really like the MDX the best (no offense to your Pilot princess).

The reason I scream about the 6th gen tranny problems is because Honda has some real design issues IMHO. For starters they are still recommending 120k/60k fluid change intervals for cars with possible transmission problems. They don't have a filter to change. The folks running their cars hard is NOT the cause of the transmission problems. They certainly make the problem develop quicker. according2me drove his mostly highway, if I remember correctly, & his was shot at <115k.

Also remember that we don't know how much fighting Honda has been thru to issue these warranty transmissions. It may have been 100% voluntary, maybe not. It's going to be real difficult for NHTSA to issue a recall with a good warranty extension from Honda. Honda is getting the best out of a bad situation. No doubt though, Honda does step up to the plate more often than not earlier than others (ahem GM).

Their engines are great - very solid. I simply expect the same from their transmission. Sure it's more complicated, but Honda is definitely capable.

Inspector1,

Honda does have much better forums than most other manufacturers. That can skew the actual results greatly. No doubt. It still doesn't take away from the design flaws in their transmissions.

[BenjiBoy650]

A transmission lasting 115K isn't good enough? I think it is, considering that cars have gotten heavier. Is it slightly less durable? Yes I think so. But your transmission durability also goes with your luck. I've seen many 4th, 5th and 6th gen auto trannies go over 100K, over 200K, even almost 300K. I think the issue is blown way out of proportion. Honda has been offering help with replacing trannies, even well out of warranty.

I think it is much more catastrophic that I have seen Toyota V6's being plucked left and right for sludging. One lady followed her maintenance schedule strictly and ended up replacing the engine at 25K. Like I said, it's all your luck.

I would say that both Honda and Toyota have done more than their fair share of stepping up to the plate. If you want to see bad, see Mercedes. You buy one, you will never drive any other car but a Honda. Creaks, rattles, engine dying suddenly (especially on freeway), extreme loss of power etc. They redesigned the fuel pump on the M-Class 5 times in less than 3 years in response to all those M-Classes that died suddenly on the highway and would not start for another hour. This is a fairly widespread issue, the replacement costs over $1000 yet there is no recall. People that are 1000 to 2000 miles out of warranty have found that they have had NO LUCK whatsoever getting anything from Mercedes. Whereas I've heard of Honda forking out over $5000 for a $6000 tranny replacements on Odyssey's that had been out of warranty for 15,000 miles or more.

[Inspector1]

I will advise you in about 4 years when my 02 has around 180k on it if my tranny makes it or not... I will step up service intervals as Princess has and also stick with my cheater "Lube Gard ATF Supplement" I am not a heavy advocate of additives but with 180k + miles on my 96 without ever changing fluid and only adding some Lube gard at 120k I think I will stay with it....

As Benji said maybe it's Luck:yes: Only time will tell....
I think a lot of Honda loyalist have been spoiled into thinking their vehicles are impossible to kill and this transmission issue is a wakeup call to the Masses.

Princess hit the nail on the head with the Quote"Their all just machines"

And Benjamming I understand your feelings toward the issue that if you have a design flaw then correct and not cover it up..
I totally agree with that!!
You did spark my curiosity on Toyota's lack of transmission dipsticks on the 4.7L That must be very recent because I remember checking fluid on some 02's. They must be going down the same path as several other Manufacturers..... Which by the way appears to be another item that they do not want Joe Consumer involved in.. I will follow up on that next week when I see one of my Dealers...

I1:)

[princess]

Some "design flaw" & some lousy trying to please the masses. If they'd kept the filters on so they could be changed AND suggested the changes then a whole lot less trannies would've had problems. That could be the BIGGEST (but not only) difference between the healthier years.

The techs see some patterns. Most are minor. If you see the same thing a few times you would call the techline people & report it as a pattern. That's how things like the faulty distributors in the Civics & Preludes got found. They were replaced at no cost to the owners.

IF the problems are found & they will at least an attempt to fix it, then we TRY not to stress over it. Have we been disppointed? you betcha!! We waited for years for Honda to make something that would pull the boat. They finally did & there have been a few minor recalls. Some effect ours & some didn't. Like everyone, we'd love to see perfection! As stated before though, that fact that to date they've never been TOLD to do a recall or campaign impresses me.

MY mom's 95 Oddy is going strong with just about 120K. If we felt she should be thinking about something more dependable, we'd make sure it happened. Same other family members & their Hondas.

BB650, the MDX is pretty. A bit TOO pretty though for us. We wanted ours to look like a truck. The clincher was the seats, one row being 60/40 & one being 50/50 made it wrong for us. We almost bought a black one with the touring package until I saw the seats. If you don't plan to have people with you on a Home Depot run, then by all means, it's a great vehicle!

Next month everyone will move on to a new panic. I was just curious what you all would think about this recall. I value the opinions here. (You should hear the whining at the Pilot forum!!) A thread on any subject there is like telephone, they can't even repeat what they read correctly!! There were 6 pages of it this morning & the news was just released yesterday! It's kinda funny to see such panic over just another "recall".

Anyway, until something more serious comes along, we'll keep our loyalty with Honda. :)

'night all! We'll be out of town this weekend so "see you" on Monday!!:D

[BenjiBoy650]

Originally posted by princess
BB650, the MDX is pretty. A bit TOO pretty though for us. We wanted ours to look like a truck. The clincher was the seats, one row being 60/40 & one being 50/50 made it wrong for us. We almost bought a black one with the touring package until I saw the seats. If you don't plan to have people with you on a Home Depot run, then by all means, it's a great vehicle!


- Wrong person :)

I think the recall is a pretty big deal. If I had owned an Odyssey I certainly would love to hear the news, but not after I'd already replaced a transmission. And to hear Honda lying through its teeth about having only 10 reported cases is very very disheartening. If the Odyssey had not had any transmission problems, I truly believe I would be driving an Odyssey and not an Accord. If you were a parent, would you buy your kid an import with a manual or a van with an auto? I think most would reply the van :)

[princess]

Opps, sorry....it's been a long day!

They didn't say 10 failures, they said 10 confirmed by THIS cause.

The MDX stuff was obviously for Benjamming:blush:

I think maybe I read too many whines on the Pilot forum & my eyeballs went buggy!

[according2me]

It doesn't take abuse for this Gen to have tranny failures. Mine is still stock and does most of it's miles cruising the interstates with the cruise set. It failed at 111,600 with frequent (15-20K) ATF-Z1 drains/refills.

As a 25 year Honda car and stock owner, I've come to expect more from them then this. With good maintenance, 200K before major drivetrain failure was not uncommon. If this persists, they will surely tarnish the once proud reputation they earned in earlier years and resale value will take a hit also.

Enough with the extended warranties, find the cause and recall/fix the problems. The extension is only for piece of mind to those who don't expect to go beyond 100K with their vehicles.

[BenjiBoy650]

This article suggests that Honda has only seen 10 tranny failures
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0404/14/autos-122832.htm

However it does seem like it's a communication problem, because the Honda press release says otherwise
http://www.hondanews.com/CatID1000?mid=2004041436013&mime=asc

[benjamming]

This thread is why I love this forum. I don't have all the answers & a lot of the time I'm wrong. But there are intelligent people here that can entertain an idea without accepting it & can discuss w/o getting feathers ruffled.

Benjiboy,

I agree with you on Mercedes. I used to work for a supplier to them in Vance, AL for the M-class. Rednecks building Mercedes - what else would you expect? :D

Inspector1,

The 2004 Toyota 4Runner V8 with 5 speed automatics & I believe the Tundra as well.

[Accord9404]

The ongoing issues with automatics just confirms my love for standards. Now why can't my wife feel the same way? Wait I forgot.....her knee bothers her when she drives my standard....:D

[princess]

page 1 of 3

[princess]

page 2 of 3

[princess]

page 3 of 3

[benjamming]

They didn't bother answering the last question. I assume they don't know if it's affecting other similar powertrains.

[princess]

Time will tell.....

This is a little different that the problems they had with the 6th gen Hondas & Acuras.

We'll have the Pilot checked next month when the stuff comes in. We're keeping our fingers crossed! Maybe when the Accord has more miles on it he can check it's tranny out using the little camera too. He thinks it's great that they'll not making the techs take them all apart for inspection!!

Hopefully the second half of the 7th gen will go back to the reliabilty we expect from Honda!! My next one will probably be the 8th gen, if I like it. The Pilot is slated to be replaced then too. He dreads starting all over with his added stuff though. I think he'll agree IF they have a big HP increase. ;)

[princess]

The cameras & parts are in to check out the Pilots! My prince had his first one today. They're using a Canon, which was nice for him because it's so familar. This first one was @ 30K & had NO DAMAGE!!

The bad part is that the oil jet kit goes where you'd fill it. So we're going to check into using a system like for the boat's oil changes (through the dipstick hole) for our fluid changes. That way he won't have to take the new oil jet thing off everytime he wants to change the fluid. Anyone else have any better ideas??:rolleyes:

[wave9984]

Princess do you have the numbers for transmissions that have bad on the 98-01 accords? those years should have enough cars over 100k to look at the percentages.

i was wondering if i should sell my car now if the percentage of the trans going wrong is pretty high. i remember i had a legend and they had bad transmissions too. I got a replacement they said it wouldn't be as reliable as the original and it went bad again in a year. big waste of money.

Has anyone else here had a transmission change except accord2me or know someone that had to do it?

Reliability and durability was the main reason i got the accord.

[princess]

No, I don't have any offical numbers.... but here's my prince's experiences.... Mostly the 4 cyl, very few V6's, he would guess the overall failure rate at about 5%. Of that, the replaced tranny's probably another 2-3% (some have needed multiple replacements) Of the ones that haven't had any problems by the extended warranty period.....he says he expects about 50% failure from lack of maintaince as they get older. As in, he would guess that less than 50% will make it to the 300K that we've grown to expect from Honda.

If it were me dealing with the "sell or not" dilema, I think I'd keep it until about 10-20K before the extended warranty wears out.... That way you get your money's worth. You may NEVER have a problem. Still being under warranty, if the new owner did, they could still have it fixed.

If one our family members owned one, that's what we'd advise. Not to panic, but stay aware. Have extremely frequent fluid changes done, in hopes of making sure most of the normal wear particles are out.

At some point Honda engineers will figure this one out...... so far we now have 2 generations of trannys with similar problems. Drop in the bucket compared to some, but still annoying!!

Other than that......light candles, say prayers, dance in circles around it, spit over your shoulder & throw some salt.....:D

[princess]

Yesterday at school, prince found out a tidbit..... the newest Pilot, MDX, etc. trannies are a bit different inside. They made the little passages bigger. So they don't need the oil injection kits if they are of the newest line. The '04's are pretty much all the new ones. The problems mentioned are pretty much just the ones (trannies) built in '02 & '03. I assume they can tell by the # on the tranny because they aren't different on the outside.

The Accords & others with a AT problem is from a sludge build up. When the screens plug the torque converter messes up. It's a different problem than the Pilots. The best advise is to change the fluid often & keep your fingers crossed that they engineer a fix.....other than just replacing with another one.

The instructor there said he'll be curious to know how ours hold up with the frequent changes.

To us it seems like a no brainer.... if sludge is causing the problem, then change the fluid more often! We'll see.....:confused:

[princess]

Since trannies are in the news again I thought I'd add this tidbit....

The dealer that my prince works at is seeing about 10 of the Pilot & Odys per day for the recall on them.....good news is that not a single one has had the burnt gear!! I find that wonderful news!!!

Our's still hasn't been looked at.....yeah, I don't want to hear it...... but it's VIN is just above 7K, so it's a pretty early model. As apposed to the Accord, which is nearly 80K on the VIN! I have confindence that this is just a "nip in the bud" issue & not a problem!:)

[princess]

The Pilot's gear also checked out just fine. I was a little more concerned about that one.....she has over 21K & her driving conditions are what they discribe as the thing that may be causing it. She goes up a grade daily.....