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How to check if my car's timing chain is properly adjusted?

11K views 46 replies 10 participants last post by  greg-ster 
#1 ·
I've been toying around with the idea of giving my car a tune up. I know, at 34,000 miles it's pretty early in the car's life to think about this, but I figure that since fuel prices are only going to continue to go up, the return on investment would come pretty soon.

As far as engine health, I do know from my used oil analysis from Terry Dyson, the engine's wearing well but with a lot of fuel dilution. Ignition timing was something that I flagged when I examined the data from my AutoEnginuity, since spark advance just tended to be kinda low/somewhat retarded.

I was thinking about making sure that the valves and timing chain were properly adjusted...along with assorted stuff like EGR and PCV valves.

Would I be better off trying to check this stuff out myself, or take it to a shop and have the car given the old 'once-over'?
 
#2 ·
The timing chain is either adjusted right, or not.

There is no in-between. The automatic hydraulic (oil fed) tensioner maintains tension on the chain while running. If the engine is rotated backwards the tensioner will retract. This is intentional, if the tensioner needs to be replaced, there is an access panel on the front cover that's removable to facilitate replacing it should it be defective.

If it's not, you'll surely hear it as the chain smacks around in the case hitting things it shouldn't.

You can check base mechanical timing, by pulling the valve cover, turning the engine by hand clockwise, lining the mark on the front pulley to tdc and then looking at the cam sprockets, the marks should align as seen in the manual.

The valves will more than likely be fine, even at 110k I rarely see K engines have any issues with excessive or insufficient clearances.

If you have a lot of fuel in the oil, either you are not driving the car enough to get it up to operating oil temp, or you do way too much of stop and go.
There is a slight possibility of not properly seated rings, or pistons with excessive clearance allowing too much blowby.

The oil analysis won't show either, unless they are grinding themselves up, the only clue is the dilution.

Since you're using AE, it does tend to be inaccurate on many pids. It's a well known issue that it should be used as guide. Only a factory tool is accurate when trying to diagnose certain issues. I've seen it on all makes not just Hondas when it comes to after market scan tools, and it's all of them, not just AE. (btw, I have AE, but when I question something that looks odd, I will refer to a factory tool if I can)

btw, spark advance and base engine timing are somewhat unrelated in most modern motors with coil on plug or distributorless ignition. You'd get cam-crank sync codes, sometimes vtc codes and check engine light if base timing was out, usually even just 1 tooth is enough.
 
#4 ·
You can check base mechanical timing, by pulling the valve cover, turning the engine by hand clockwise, lining the mark on the front pulley to tdc and then looking at the cam sprockets, the marks should align as seen in the manual.
Thanks for all the info, Fred! i just learned a ton about my car, right off the bat:thmsup:

I guess that the only thing that would be checkable at this stage is to check the base timing. If I pulled the valve cover to check the alignment of the cam sprockets, would i need to replace the head gasket? I remember vaguely someone on BITOG saying something along those lines.

I just looked over Terry's comments in my UOA, and while engine wear is very low, the oil sample (Mobil 1) took a beating because of fuel dilution. Terry highlighted issues with combustion efficiency...last summer, after the UOA, I replaced the air filter and spark plugs, to try and address this. The accord now typically spends the majority of most driving trips on the highway for at least 8-20 miles each way, with some occasional local trips.

The (factory/original) spark plugs were fairly even between themselves, in terms of coloring, but were all on the dark gray side.

Is checking the base timing on the right track to finding any issues with combustion efficiency? Also Fred, is there anything else you would suggest looking at? Terry mentioned checking the PCV valve in his comments - does this sound plausible?

Interesting . . . This could just be a characteristic of the K24 or maybe the engine is sensing early detonation and retarding the spark. :dunno: Try running a couple of tanks of 91 or 93 octane and see if the timing changes.
This was actually an experiment I was looking into, back when I first got my AutoEnginuity...I should definitely follow up on it.
 
#3 ·
Ignition timing was something that I flagged when I examined the data from my AutoEnginuity, since spark advance just tended to be kinda low/somewhat retarded.

Interesting . . . This could just be a characteristic of the K24 or maybe the engine is sensing early detonation and retarding the spark. :dunno: Try running a couple of tanks of 91 or 93 octane and see if the timing changes.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Well, the M1 was in there for about 9000 highway miles. After that, since there was a big slow down in our driving habits, the car got moved over to Havoline Dino, being changed yearly right now (about 2500 miles on the oil).

Fred, if your shop is around Marlboro, would it be OK for me to set up a time to drop by your shop and have the car/engine looked over (hopefully by you)? You're like the Prince of the east coast :thmsup:

Would the shop have stuff like the valve cover gasket handy, or would I need to bring that with me?

Thanks!
 
#8 ·
The shop I work at is in Farmingdale. Off exit 100 gsp or exit 31 (not sure of I 195) Let me know when/if you want to drop the car. We can get the valve cover gasket prior to you coming. PM me for details.

You may want to change the oil more frequently or drive the car more. If you're only going 2500/yr right now you need to take it out and get it good and hot for the miles you're doing.

On the highway driving, how long (time/miles) were you driving at steady speeds greater than 50 mph? I need to know, to decide whether 9k on M1 is too long. I know Honda's "regular" interval for the K engine is 10k, but those conditions have to be absolute ideal to do it.
 
#9 ·
The car's old routine was a 60 mile commute each weekday, plus another 20ish highway/suburban miles on the weekends. Now, for the past year-ish, the car gets just weekend trips, with the occasional trip to upstate NY; The Accord usually spends most days parked nowadays.

Now, there's the possibility of the Accord getting moved down to Georgia at the end of the summer, and it'll actually get used now :)

PM sent!
 
#11 ·
It's been a long day, for sure, but there's a bit of good news to report. My car's timing chain is off by one tooth, apparently from the factory! I've got a case open with American Honda, and they actually seem quite interested in this matter.:thmsup:

I'm actually quite glad I finally found this is the issue. The big thing is that it explains the big issues the car had when it was new - awful MPG and really rough idling. Granted, the idle without A/C has gotten a lot smoother, and the MPG improved a bit (on light, highway driving only - it plummets fast in any kind of idling/accelerating/local driving), but i'm still less than thrilled with the Accord in these areas.

It's also a bit of a pick-me-up, since I lost hope in dealing with dealerships who all thought my expectations for the Accord were unreasonable. In a way, they actually kinda succeeded in convincing me :(

Anyways, enough with the rambling, here are the pics. The problem is, as best I can recall from Fred explaining it to me, that the camshafts are both one tooth off with relation to the crankshaft.

The Camshafts -





The Crankshaft, I think... It's not aligned with the camshafts



Thanks again to Fred, especially for the great thinking - taking pictures and suggesting that I bring this to the attention of American Honda.:thmsup:

I'll keep you all posted on how this turns out. I guess the only thing is that i'm kinda worried about having one of the dealership techs try and fix this...meh, I think i'm being too cynical. American Honda wants to know which dealership do i want to go to, to do the repair...
 
#12 ·
WOW!

That is an amazing find. Keep us updated on what Honda wants to do.

Could this have damaged the motor at all? I doubt it, but just wondering.
 
#14 ·
Well, I remember that Fred mentioned that if the camshaft/crankshaft were out by two teeth or more, it would have bent the valves. I'm not sure what can happen to the engine if it is off by one tooth, over a long period of time.

Fred did say that the motor runs well considering that the timing is off, though...
 
#13 ·
I'm also going to have to ask AHM, when they get the pictures, what is up with the paint marks - it looks like someone kinda smeared white out on the cams...not a neat application at all.

Now I know what Fred was taking about :)
 
#15 ·
With the way the cams are off, I'm not so surprised that the idle is slightly rough.
The cams are "retarded" in relation to the crank, as the valves are opening later than they should.

It may only be a small amount, but that 1 tooth can cause problems. I used to see this on older Toyota engines (3sfe and 5sfe) that had very hard to see camshaft timing belt marks. They'd be off 1 or 2 teeth and the only complaint most people had, especially when they had multiple Camrys was one got great mileage and the other was miserable, but they both seemed to run the same.

This, when on an engine with fully fixed valve timing, normally causes rough low speed operation, and poor low rpm performance. But, the car will run well through the midrange with better higher rpm power.

Since the K24 uses variable intake cam phasing, the PCM can modify the timing of the intake cam in relation to the crank to try and correct the problem. The exhaust cam can't though, as it's timing is fixed.

I'm still quite surprised that the 1 tooth off has not caused cam/crank sync codes to be generated.
 
#21 ·
With the way the cams are off, I'm not so surprised that the idle is slightly rough.
The cams are "retarded" in relation to the crank, as the valves are opening later than they should.
To bad it wasn't advance instead of retarded. Most likely would have seem better FE numbers and stronger low end torque.

Fred, how many degrees retarded are we talking?
 
#16 ·
Greg, you really oughta ask Honda for a little sumthin for all the trouble you've gone thru with this car! Don't know how or why you're so persistent with it but it's incredible to say the least

Fred, I'm just curious what happens to the Hondas when the PCV valve fails? I've been reading about the Mazda6 and apparently the valves fail quite often - leading to $6000 worth of new engine :thumbsdow
 
#17 ·
Which engine in the Mazda 6, 4 or 6 with the failed PCV?
The V6 is a Ford engine, where the valve is, I can't see it causing engine failure, they do however have the hoses that go to them tend to deteriorate and split causing huge vacuum leaks.

The 4, depending on where it is, maybe they pull all the oil into the intake?

On Honda's setup, esp with the K series, I've seen many with broken springs in the valves. The engines do seem to use a bit of oil when this happens. There are no other outward signs. I usually replace them at 60k intervals due to that.

On the older plastic PCV valves, I rarely see any problem with them, just be sure to use OEM and the correct one for the particular engine.

The J series starting in '03 uses an "internal" pcv inside the intake, I haven't seen or heard any problems with them as of yet.
 
#19 ·
Interesting, I wonder if the Mazda version relocates the PCV system in a different place.
I've not seen any problems with all the various Duratec V6s that are out there, at least not with the PCV system.
 
#20 ·
Hey guys!

I've mailed all my pictures, receipts and a UOA over to my case manager at AHM, and it's scheduled to arrive on either today or monday. The only issue that i'm having was trying to get my case manager to understand exactly what the problem is - he doesn't have a very mechanical background - and why a misadjusted timing chain is significant.

He understands the stuff like rough idling and poor fuel economy, but I lose him when i start talking about things such as fuel dilution and camshafts.

Right now, the only extras that I want out of American Honda are for them to cover my diagnostic fees, which I think is very fair, since it is a factory defect which no dealership was able find on their own.

I'll be posting more updates next week....

Fred, do you remember if adjusting the timing chain is the only thing the dealership needs to do? I wanted to make sure, since it looks like i've got to guide the dealership and American Honda through this whole thing...
 
#22 ·
I'd say by how far off the mark the crank is in relation to the cams, about 5 to 10 degrees retarded. The teeth are so fine on these timing drives, that one tooth doesn't move them a huge amount as it would on most chain driven cam setups. The funny thing about it, is that the variable cam phasing on the intake cam can mask the mis timing to some extent, so only the exhaust will be out as it's fixed.

The only way I see them being able to get the timing back to the way it should be is to remove the front chain case (cover) and pull the chain, set the crank to it's proper marks, and then re-install the chain, cover, etc.

It may be possible, to pull the access cover for the tensioner, roll the engine backwards to compress it, put in the lock pin, remove the tensioner, then carefully roll the engine with NO tensioner installed, hoping that it will jump the 1 tooth back to where it should be, then reassemble. It's a touchy situation doing it that way.

The paint marks I see on your cam gears, and the chain tells me that for some reason it either was fooled with post-initial build, or someone at the factory was sloppy. But, I've not seen any other K series painted in the manner your car was when doing valve adjustments at 110k.

Greg, on Monday I'm going to call our local Honda dealer and ask them to run your VIN, to see what's been done under warranty. This will also include anything that was done pre-purchase. For all we know there was an issue with the engine when the car arrived at the selling dealer, and they had to disassemble it. Was it always missing that one spark plug cover bolt?
 
#23 ·
Thanks Fred! The missing spark plug cover bolt is my fault - I lost it when I replaced the spark plugs, then later found it . That reminds me, I'd better re-install the bolt before the car goes to the dealer.

I'll be pressing my case manager for info about the paint marks. He said that he'll try to run all of the info by techline, to get some answers
 
#25 ·
D-Day is tomorrow morning!

And by that I mean, tomorrow at 10:30 AM is when the car goes to the dealership and "hopefully" they confirm for AHM / my case manager that the cam timing/timing chain is off a tooth.

It's kinda scary that no one at Honda of New Rochelle seems to understand what I mean when I say the words "cam timing"...i'll be bringing the pictures so that I can illustrate what's wrong. On the upside, i'll be sure to get my case manager to have the techs take pictures of the cam/crankshaft when they're done - so that AHM has before and after pictures, and I can see that they did the job correctly.

I'll be posting updates in almost real time, I promise :)
 
#26 ·
I'm sorry if this post is a mess, but i'm absolutely stunned right now.

According to Honda of NR:

My car's fine.

"The guy who told you that has no idea what he's talking about and shouldn't be working on cars."

"if you were having a problem with timing, your car wouldn't be able to start"

"If there was anyhting wrong with your car, you wouln't be able to mak eit over here"

From the tech:

Me: Hi sir, do you have a machinist's ruler handy?

Tech: What's that?

Me: It's a satright metal ruler, thin picce of metal....or something else with a straight edge. My case manager will be surprised if there's no trouble found, and I just wanted to be able to tell him that you used a straight edge.

Tech: No, and he'll bring your car over to the front

Me: Ok, I just wanted to ask

Tech: you can't be over here, go wait in the waiting room.

And the thing is, the SA was rushing the tech to hurry up and close up the car!!!

And They are literally eyeballing the cams!

And if you look at the cams at eye level, they are off!!!

Holy shit. I'm absolutely floored....i'm calling Patrick, my case manager. The SA knew that I was going to call, and ruched to call him first.
 
#27 ·
Did I mention that they eyeballed the cams, and even with just eyeballing, you could see that the timing marks were off?

The thing that grinds my gears is that the SA and tech were so rude and dismissive. And the SA insulted Fred, which is not cool.

I now remember every reason that I stopped coming to Honda of New Rochelle.

Ugh, what do I do now?

I'm thinking of going to another dealership - but how do I guarantee that the tech will see the problem? I literally am going to have to hold their hand on this!
 
#28 ·
Hi Greg

Talk to your case manager and ask or more likely demand they send a tech from California to meet with you.

Then have him/her pull the valve cover and then line up the two cam marks so he/she sees that the tdc mark is NOT lined up with the pointer on the chain cover.

The response you got from that Honda dealer is typical when a car comes to them when it's been someplace else. They usually use the words "outside shop"

I'd like to meet the ignorant asshole (excuse my language) that said it wouldn't start or that you wouldn't be able to drive it. But, then again that's a Honda dealer SA. I went through the same thing with the SA at the Honda dealer I brought my car to regarding the couple of problems I had.

The fact that even visually you can see the marks aren't aligned when the white mark is on tdc, and that when you line them up, the tdc mark isn't tells me someone's blind..

Eyballing the cams with the two lines together isn't hard, THREE of us at the shop I work at all agreed that they were out.

To be 110% accurate the two dots to the plated links, two lines and the arrow inside the engine AND the 3rd plated link can be lined up to ensure proper timing. That's doing base engine assembly. In service the two lines and tdc mark are all that's needed to verify.

Just because I don't work for Honda doesn't mean I don't know what I'm doing. That's the attitude I get from our local Honda store. But, they sure are willing to take my money when I buy stuff from them.

You should have that idiot SA call me, so I can tell him just how ignorant he really is.

I'd also write a scathing letter and send it off to Honda in Torrance. They don't really like that.
 
#29 ·
I'd also write a scathing letter and send it off to Honda in Torrance. They don't really like that.
I'd also suggest CC the letter to the dealership owner and service manager, they REALLY don't like that!
 
#30 ·
Here's the installation directions.... it clearly shows what's supposed to be lined up. Fred is right, they will run... not perfect, but run. One tooth isn't enough to make them not start!

You've never had the tranny replaced have you?

I'm not sure about L4s, but on a V6 if you turn the crank the wrong way when replacing the tranny it will be off. They even have an article about it in the Dec 06 Service News.
 

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#31 ·
Fred,

The most amazing thing is that the tech and SA think that they are geniuses! It's sad that so many dealerships are just like this

The line where I ask the tech if he has a machinist's ruler and he actually said "What's that?" is pure gold. And of course, he didn't have any kind of straight edge available...

The dealership lined up the TDC mark perfectly, but then ignored the fact the the line on one cam was sloping up slightly, and the other sloping down. The Tech actually told me, and pointed, that the cam's were OK because the paint smear on the (exhaust?) camshaft was pointing up - yes, you heard that right.

Fred, would you suggest that I buy a 6 inch (or longer/shorter) machinists/mechanic's ruler? I'm thinking about heading over to Planet Honda in Union, NJ with a ruler in hand - they were the only great dealership I can remember dealing with. I'd give it to the tech to line up the cam lines, which would make the TDC mark be off.

Also, I asked my case manager about the paint marks, and he said that he didn't think they meant anything significant...take that at face value, since he may also be doing damage control.

I'm still waiting for my case manager to return my call (from about noon today) - i'll let you know what happens next. Today was massively not cool though; I don't even know why I bothered going back to Honda of New Rochelle - they always pull crap like this, and then act like they know EVERYTHING.:thumbsdow
 
#32 ·
It is Honda's customer experience when involving things that are hard to solve that caused me to happily switch to being a Toyota owner.

Good luck. You might want to get a second opinion and maybe out of pocket so you can get a lawyer. If a lawyer will take your case, go ahead and wring Honda out for me as I won't be surprised if you run into more walls after this experience.

Sorry for not shedding a lot of light, but I've seen this happen before on an Acura and there really will be a wall soon that will be hard to jump over.
 
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