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Old 09-07-2009, 04:03 PM
Haasguy Haasguy is offline
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Unhappy Camshaft Position Sensor

Hi All!
I've got a 2003 Accord Sedan 4cyl with 110,000 miles on it that suddenly seems to have a problem. It refuses to start unless I put the throttle halfway down and then it bucks and shakes. My scanner says code P0341 which seems to be a camshaft position sensor. First question is does that sound as cut and dried as the sensor has failed? How hard is it to replace and can I get one online? I'm not sure how to find the part number on Majestic's website. I hate to just replace parts without being sure but does that sound like a failure of the sensor to you experts?

Thanks in advance!
Rob
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Old 09-07-2009, 04:52 PM
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Number 6 and 7 in the diagram here: http://www.bkhondaparts.com/billkay/...dIrno=|006|007. I don't know why there are two showing, perhaps someone with more experience can answer that. One way or another you'll have to remove the cover and look for them. But before you go spend money on sensors, check the wires if they are ok. Some more advice here: http://www.obd-codes.com/p0341
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Old 09-07-2009, 05:02 PM
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P0341 is incorrect cam to crankshaft phasing, not a sensor issue normally.


If this happened suddenly, as if it was running perfect just before you shut it down, and now runs like crap, you need to do the following....

Verify cam timing by pulling the cam cover, line up the white mark on the front crank pulley to the pointer on the front cover, the two dots should be at about 1 o'clock, and the two hash marks should be exactly together on the sprockets.

While you are checking, see if the intake camshaft will rotate independent of the sprocket, it should be locked when shut off. You may need to wrap the shaft with a rag and use a pair of pliers or vise grips to turn the intake cam if there are no flats for a wrench on it.

Is your car a stick or auto?

It's kind of rare for a cmp sensor on one of these to just up and crap out.

If the cam timing is ok, you'll need to get it to someone with a HDS, to do the VTC system test since your car isn't running properly. The VTC actuator or solenoid valve could be bad as well.

For any of these repairs, phaser, solenoid or cam chain components, you'll also need to do the low and high speed crankshaft pattern learns. Another HDS or very good aftermarket scan tool function.
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Old 09-08-2009, 02:50 AM
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I would be really surprised if the chain has skipped a tooth or two on the cam pulleys.

BTW, if your scanner can read the timing while the engine is running, see if it is 10 degrees with a +/- 2, while idle and in neutral or park (if auto). If not then the timing is screwed up and you'll have to take the chain off and re-align the crank and cam shaft at top dead center by aligning those white markings on them.
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Old 09-08-2009, 03:02 PM
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Don't be surprised. Especially if its a stick.

I've mentioned this before, by design, if the engine rotates backwards 1/4 of a turn, the cam chain tensioner backs off. This is to facilitate tensioner replacement. However, any undo wear on the guides can cause it to go excessively slack, and any more rotation backwards than 1/4 of a turn (90* crank rotation) will make the chain jump off the crank gear. This can also occur if there's excessive wear on the guides and it rotates backwards only 1/4 turn, but on crankover, it jumps time.

Reading the timing on the scanner is useless, as it's not going to tell you what cam to crank timing is. The value you see on the scanner is the desired spark timing.

If you have an oscilloscope, you can take waves of the cams and crank and see if they are in synch.

The VTC issue is pretty common on CRVs.
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Old 09-09-2009, 07:13 AM
Haasguy Haasguy is offline
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Hey Fredsvt,

I think you might have diagnosed the problem exactly. The car is a 5 spd and it ran perfect when I shut it off. My wife started it to leave and it suddenly wouldn't run and the check engine light turned on. I'm going to pull the cam cover and check it out this weekend. If it is what you suspect, what parts will need to be replaced? Timing chain and tensioner only or are there more parts that will require more dissasembly? You said something about guides being worn. What does that involve to get off and replace? I'm my own mechanic so I'll be diving into this myself.

Thanks,
Robert
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Old 09-09-2009, 03:39 PM
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You'll need to get a hold of a Helm's manual for the car before opening it up if it's a chain issue. There are many different sized bolts and torque patterns are critical.

With a stick shift, if you put it in a forward gear and it rolls backwards, the engine will turn backwards more than the designed in "limit" can allow. That's why I asked about what trans, with an auto it's not as likely.

The parts you'll need if the chain jumped are: 11, 12, 8, 9, 13 (chain, guides, tensioner), you'll also want a cam cover gasket, and spark plug tube seals. You'll also want to check the valve adjustment. And keep your fingers crossed, that if the chain jumped, that it didn't eat any of the valves. These mangle valves when out of time.

http://www.hondapartscheap.com/south...%29&vinsrch=no

Pulling the front cover is not the most enjoyable job, that's for sure.
You'll need Hondabond and a good gasket dissolver and brake cleaner to take off all the silicone residue. Any left over and any oil will not allow the sealer to work.


Let's take it one step at a time and first check base cam to crank timing.

If it's ok, check the vtc phaser (cam sprocket) to make sure it's locked, by trying to turn the intake cam. If that's ok and everything is in time, the oil control solenoid for the vtc is probably at fault.
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Vermilion 1999 SVT F150 Lightning, Sylvania/Visteon Xenarc HID headlamps, '01 L turn/marker lamps, PIAA fogs, '01 up Bilstein shocks, all Pioneer speakers, Clarion subwoofer. All Redline fluids.

Silverstone 2003 Honda S2000, bone stock
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Old 09-09-2009, 03:50 PM
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Fred, would a 6-6 rolling backwards (off and in gear) have similar or any issues as well?
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Old 09-09-2009, 03:55 PM
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No, the timing belt tensioner requires MUCH more force to compress than just rolling it backwards, and if it did compress, it'll only move about 1/4 to 1/2 inch, not enough to slack the belt much. Once the rearward rotation stops, as long as there's still pressure in the tensioner, it'll re-extend.
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Vermilion 1999 SVT F150 Lightning, Sylvania/Visteon Xenarc HID headlamps, '01 L turn/marker lamps, PIAA fogs, '01 up Bilstein shocks, all Pioneer speakers, Clarion subwoofer. All Redline fluids.

Silverstone 2003 Honda S2000, bone stock
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredsvt View Post
No, the timing belt tensioner requires MUCH more force to compress than just rolling it backwards, and if it did compress, it'll only move about 1/4 to 1/2 inch, not enough to slack the belt much. Once the rearward rotation stops, as long as there's still pressure in the tensioner, it'll re-extend.
Good to know... I parked my car in a driveway but left it in 2nd gear (and this is before I knew I needed pull the EBrake hard for it to do anything) and in the morning it rolled roughly 12 feet backwards...

It's been fine and dandy but I just wanted to confirm, thanks
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Old 12-04-2009, 04:26 PM
MotorCity Honda MotorCity Honda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredsvt View Post
P0341 is incorrect cam to crankshaft phasing, not a sensor issue normally.


If this happened suddenly, as if it was running perfect just before you shut it down, and now runs like crap, you need to do the following....

Verify cam timing by pulling the cam cover, line up the white mark on the front crank pulley to the pointer on the front cover, the two dots should be at about 1 o'clock, and the two hash marks should be exactly together on the sprockets.

While you are checking, see if the intake camshaft will rotate independent of the sprocket, it should be locked when shut off. You may need to wrap the shaft with a rag and use a pair of pliers or vise grips to turn the intake cam if there are no flats for a wrench on it.

Is your car a stick or auto?

It's kind of rare for a cmp sensor on one of these to just up and crap out.

If the cam timing is ok, you'll need to get it to someone with a HDS, to do the VTC system test since your car isn't running properly. The VTC actuator or solenoid valve could be bad as well.

For any of these repairs, phaser, solenoid or cam chain components, you'll also need to do the low and high speed crankshaft pattern learns. Another HDS or very good aftermarket scan tool function.

Hey Fred,

What about when you get a P0341 on auto '03 with 175,000 miles that seems to be driving normally?


Thanks
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Old 12-04-2009, 04:41 PM
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You're going to also need to verify cam timing and see the service news article on the subject that's been posted in factory facts. It will show you how to measure the extension of the tensioner guide rail or tensioner plunger to determine if the guides/chain have worn to the point that will cause the P0341.

It's rare that the sensor(s) are bad.

http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/a090900.PDF

second page.

If they are not worn enough to cause this, it can also be caused by a bad cam phaser or jumped chain. You'll need to verify timing marks too.
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Vermilion 1999 SVT F150 Lightning, Sylvania/Visteon Xenarc HID headlamps, '01 L turn/marker lamps, PIAA fogs, '01 up Bilstein shocks, all Pioneer speakers, Clarion subwoofer. All Redline fluids.

Silverstone 2003 Honda S2000, bone stock
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Old 12-04-2009, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredsvt View Post
You're going to also need to verify cam timing and see the service news article on the subject that's been posted in factory facts. It will show you how to measure the extension of the tensioner guide rail or tensioner plunger to determine if the guides/chain have worn to the point that will cause the P0341.

It's rare that the sensor(s) are bad.

http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/a090900.PDF

second page.

If they are not worn enough to cause this, it can also be caused by a bad cam phaser or jumped chain. You'll need to verify timing marks too.
Perfect....Thanks!!!
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