Honda switches from Mobil to Lyden

[mitchigan]

can anyone confirm this? a service rep from an acura stealership told me this happened two months ago. Mobil could not meet Honda's "strict" demands on oil standards, supposedly. And I guess Lyden supplies Ford's oil as well hence pushing their famous 5W-20 in our Honda and ford engines.

[Mechanic]

From Jobber's World approximately six weeks ago:

"Honda and Acura dealers are now getting word that Honda selected ConocoPhillips for its genuine oil program. This business was formerly supplied by, ExxonMobil, the long time incumbent.

"Based on JobbersWorld's estimates, this means ConocoPhillips will quickly enjoy roughly 9 million gallons of new business with Honda and Acura dealers. In addition, they have an opportunity to nearly double that volume if they can get all of the Honda and Acura dealers on board for bulk and packaged product.

"Whereas this is certainly good news for ConocoPhillips, it's also good news for its lubricant marketers. From what JobbersWorld is hearing, its lubricant marketers are already being advised about the new business and what it means for them in terms of buy backs. . . . ."

The change is discussed further in this link: http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=51061

[Fredsvt]

So what does one do when your Honda/Acura requires HTO-06 spec'd oil? I don't think Kendall makes one that is approved for this specification.

[Sultan]

I heard the new oil at dealer is semi-synthetic

[mitchigan]

Looks like the stealerships in my area are getting their bulk oil from Lyden (CP distributor) and the Honda oil IS from conoco phillips now. Lyden distributes their product and shares a relationship with them in one way or another in the midwest... and yes IIRC it is semi-synthetic blend now.

I believe kendall ultimate GT-1 is HTO-06 spec'd. Somewhere in an acura forum, I can't recall, some stealers are using kendall motor oil already.

[Fredsvt]

I went to their website.

It is NOT approved for HT0-06, nor is it licensed for GM Dexos1. I see no GM Dexos1 trademark insignia anywhere. If it did carry the Dexos1 insignia, then it's more than good enough for HTO-06.

They say it's "suitable" for Dexos1 applications. A blatant lie, if it hasn't been tested or licensed by GM.

This is going to be really interesting.

[Mechanic]

WRT to the issue of whether Kendall's GT1 is HTO-06, pls see
http://www.conocophillipslubricants....0&brand=Conoco. Quality product.

Additionally, as mentioned previously elsewhere, Honda's switching from Exxon-Mobil to ConocoPhillips (it's one word, btw) is really a plus for 5W-20 users, as COP's best-selling 5W-20 is a semi-synthetic.

[Fredsvt]

It is not approved by Honda that I see. They say it's "suitable". Unless it is formally approved by Honda, what they say is meaningless.

Had to come back and edit:

I've been in contact with Kevin McCartney, and he went through CPs' site and more, there is only one product they make that's HTO-06 approved, and it's an older product that may or may not be for sale. They have no GF5/HTO-06 products. He also mentioned that CP, Shell, and ExMob all make oils that did/do meet Honda's specs but they also make some "full synthetics" that don't. It's truly buyer beware.

Until I see a job aid, service news or bulletin outlining that CP's oil has been approved in 0w20, 5w20 and 5w30 I'll stick with what I use in Hondas, Motorcraft 5w20 semi, and for HTO-06, Mobil 1 5w30 with the HTO-06 approval or Pennzoil Plat 5w30 w/ same approval.

Once Honda goes to 0w10 and 0w15, that will be very interesting.

Edit 2:

Spoke directly to a Honda tech who says the "76" truck pulled up, telling them that they are now loading their tanks with the CP products, which products, he's not sure. The Honda rep he asked wouldn't elaborate and the stickers on the tanks, a mix now of ExMob and CP at that point say "bulk 5w20" and "bulk 0w20". GF-4.

[Sultan]

Originally Posted by mitchigan

Looks like the stealerships in my area are getting their bulk oil from Lyden (CP distributor) and the Honda oil IS from conoco phillips now. Lyden distributes their product and shares a relationship with them in one way or another in the midwest... and yes IIRC it is semi-synthetic blend now.

I believe kendall ultimate GT-1 is HTO-06 spec'd. Somewhere in an acura forum, I can't recall, some stealers are using kendall motor oil already.

GOOD

[Mechanic]

Fredsvt: I don't mean to be rude, sir, but are you relying on Kevin McCartney to interpret ConocoPhillips Product Data Sheet for you? (For the benefit of the board, Mr. McCartney states his qualifications as an "Educator/Consultant, Auto Support Services, Fresno, California." He is not employed by American Honda Motor Company (AHMC), nor has he any official relationship with the company.)

Respectfully, sir, in light of the fact that AHMC now has a contractual relationship with ConocoPhillips (COP) to supply both its bulk- and bottled-oil products, and COP's Product Data Sheet for Kendall GT-1 synthetic clearly states it meets Honda's HTO-06 requirements, your concerns seem unwarranted and misplaced.

[Fredsvt]

You're not being rude. I never stated that he was employed or has a relationship with the company. I have no idea where you think I stated as such.

I'd trust his opinion far more than any oil company's product data sheet. He's got more contact, education/training and respect within the automotive and lubricant industries than many so called experts.

My concerns are fully warranted and not misplaced.

COP, Valvoline, Castrol and others have shown a repeated, how do I say it, misleading labeling and product data sheets for various products to make it seem like they are approved for use in various makes and models, even when they are not.

If Honda is using it, then fine, but I'd want to know EXACTLY which products they are using. NOT what you or anyone else thinks they are using. It is very similar to using the wrong Mobil 1 5w30, not ALL Mobil 1 5w30s are HTO-06 APPROVED. There is a difference between "meets" and approved.

Currently, for example, there are no GM dexos1 licenses given to ANY Valvoline, Castrol or COP products. They all say they are suitable and "recommended" for use in that application, but they are most definitely NOT. They all refuse to submit to GM testing.



The following is courtesy of Kevin McCartney and iatn, since I started asking about this on iatn.net.

Only the Mobil 1 5W-30, Penz Platinum 5W-30 and Conoco
Phillips Ultimate met/meet HTO-06.

As the new products are settling out I'm confirming which
"new"(GF-5) products still meet all the different ratings. I
have not yet confirmed that all three of these still meet
HTO-06.

The Conoco-Phillips line is particularly confusing because
the have several "GT-1 Full Synthetic 5W-30" products and
only one of them is HTO-06 (or 4718M) approved.

The new Mobil 1 and Penz/QS dexos 1 products are probably
still HTO-06 approved (I think I have confirmed that but
I'll need to double check). They are also ACEA A5/B5
approved so unless you are getting a deal through Honda or
otherwise getting a cheaper price you would be providing
better value by offering the Mobil/Penz/QS HTO-06 approved
product in those applications.

So you are correct that COP had/has a GF4 product that's HTO-06 approved, but the GF5 product may not be.

And some more in response to a Honda dealer tech's post:

>Our oil tanks were switched out last week, from Exxon-Mobil,
>to Conoco-Phillips. The truck that fills them has Shell and
>76 logos on the side of it. I asked the oil rep if he had
>any paperwork about the oil he was delivering, he said the
>oil we are receiving meets Hondas specs,

Honda has many different specs. Which ones does it meet?

>and to ask the
>Honda rep about it.

That's BS! The Honda rep will only know that "A"
conoco-Phillips product is approved. He can not and should
not be counted on to identify WHICH Conoco-Phillips product
was delivered and if THAT product is approved.

Insist on a product data sheet for every product that is
delivered and don't accept the product if they won't supply
one. this may seem harsh or unreasonable but the oil company
salesment do NOT themselves understand what is and is not
approved! Neither does the Honda rep! If you don't get a
product data sheet, nobody will know until after engine
damage occurs and you are in small claims court trying to
explain why YOU put the WRONG oil in the customers car.

Get a part/product number for the delivered product from the
oil distributer first. then insist on a product data sheet
and make sure the data sheet has the same part/product
number on it.

Conoco-phillips makes several seemingly similar products and
the distributors like to only deliver the cheaper ones which
are NOT approved.

See why there IS reason for concern? This not only goes for the high performance HTO-06 but also 5w20 and 0w20.

Again, thanks to Kevin McCartney for keeping up with all of this and to iatn.

[Mechanic]

Good morning, Fredsvt.

First, let me make the point that it's important to me personally not to get cross-threaded with anyone on the board. Life's too short for that, and this board (and others) should be recreational as well as informational.

Like you, I want to know for certain what I am pouring into my engines. And, perhaps like you, I frankly was caught out by AHMC's decision to stop buying oil products from Exxon-Mobil (XOM) and start buying them from ConocoPhillips (COP). The change may have been made to take advantage of the fact that what's now being supplied to Honda dealers by COP is a 5W-20 weight semi-synthetic, whereas XOM's 5W-20 weight bulk-oil was only a conventional oil, and HMC wanted the potential advantages of a semi-synthetic. While that's certainly possible, I think it was done simply as a cost savings for Honda. If so, that's regrettable.

The question now, of course, is whether COP's products are as good (or better) than XOM's. Ultimately, given the confusion in the motor oil industry these days regarding certifications and specifications, the only sure way to know whether the product you are buying is a quality oil product is to have it analyzed. In this regard, I'm certain that COP's various products will be subjected to rigorous scrutiny and independent lab analyses and the results posted here and on bobistheoilguy.com, and we'll all know soon enough what's what. In the meantime, we are fortunate that Honda engines have a superb reputation for being easy on motor oil, and with very few exceptions, the oil analyses I've seen over the years involving k-series motors have shown almost no wear, regardless of oil type (synthetic or conventional) or brand. Mobil Clean 5000, Mobil 1, Pennzoil Yellow Bottle, Pennzoil Platinum, Castrol GTX, Castrol Syntec and Ultra, Valvoline, Motorcraft, etc. (to name but a few), all have shown consistently exceptional results. COP's products likely will produce the same results. Again, oil analyses will tell the tale. Pending those results, however, I'm not particularly concerned.

[Edaccord08]

This maybe dumb question but what Honda/Acura engines need HTO-06 spec oil .
Did quick search and so far K23's came up .

[Mechanic]

Originally Posted by Edaccord08

This maybe dumb question but what Honda/Acura engines need HTO-06 spec oil. Did quick search and so far K23's came up .

Not dumb at all. Your's is an excellent question.

The only engine that requires an HTO-06 designated oil is Acura's K23 turbocharged engine. (Hence, the "High Temperature Operation" designation.) The issue really is moot on an Accord board unless you are a belt-and-suspenders sort of guy.

[Edaccord08]

Originally Posted by Mechanic

Not dumb at all. Your's is an excellent question.

The only engine that requires an HTO-06 designated oil is Acura's K23 turbocharged engine. (Hence, the "High Temperature Operation" designation.) The issue really is moot on an Accord board unless you are a belt-and-suspenders sort of guy.

ok, goch-ya , probably best to go full synthetic now a days on turbo vehicles . I have ran into fixing quite a few turbo with bad center bearings/caked oil supply lines. I don't know what the causes were but many had like 60k mileage, not real high .

I see honda spec for S2000 and SI is 5w-30 instead of 5w-20 , I realize these engines rev high but I would think good quality 5w20 would be ok except maybe hotter climates down south .