03 2.4L 4CYL Accord Coupe EX Excessive Oil Consumption issue

[MATTpgh]

Thanks for the answer!
How difficult is it to change the oil control rings/valve stem seals? are they fairly easily accessible after the cam cover is off?

I'm a computer guy, so I don't know too much about cars, but I've found they're pretty simple to work on for the most part. I do most of my own work but I feel like something like this may just need an expert to fix it.

[Fredsvt]

Piston rings require near complete engine tear down. The condition of the pistons, cylinder walls and rod bearings must be considered during this procedure. I'd say, shop labor on rings would be around 15-20 hours, depending on whether or not the motor comes out or choose to do it in chassis.

The valve stem seals can be done on the car, with the correct tools, 150 psi of air into the cylinders with the cams and rocker shafts out of the motor.

If the whole tear down route comes into play, the stem seals can be done when the head is off. Then the timing chain, chain tensioner, and guides should be done with either in chassis or motor out of the car.

[rufusvonstorm]

Still using a fair amount of oil, about 1-2quarts between changes.
110k miles.
Medium-heavy soot in the tailpipe.
Power is good, smooth pull in all gears.
MPG is good, getting 32mpg at 80mph.

Stem seals have been replaced, PCV has been replaced.

I guess I'm going to start fouling cats and o2 sensors eventually?

Live with it for another 100k, then it's time to rebuild?

Thanks

[rufusvonstorm]

Maybe a lack of reading comprehension on my part...

Looking at the other thread, if I'm at the "fill" mark that means I'm 1/2 quart down? That seems less serious than 1-2 quarts previously imagined

[Drew03Accord]

Originally Posted by Fredsvt

The low tension piston rings absolutely need the low viscosity oil, otherwise they are starved for lubrication, which causes them to overheat, and begin to microweld and eventually lose tension. This is first evident with the oil control rings, as the oil consumption will increase dramatically. Then the compression rings slowly wear and grind on the cylinder walls. This wear is most prevalent during cold starts when the oil just can't get to where it needs to fast enough. You wouldn't believe how fast the rings overheat, even at cold start, when they have no/limited lube.

Fred, I don't want to turn this into another drawn out oil thread but your statement gave me pause. Lately I've been reading the numerous threads criticizing 5W-20 with some even claiming chafed cylinder walls sporting crosshatch marks upon inspection. Not that I'm influenced, but I live in the south and my i4 now has 111K. I'm thinking of switching to 5W-30 full syn for the summer but you're making me reconsider. My thinking is that given the mileage, ring/ cylinder wall tolerances are different now and full syn will flow better at cold start anyway and offer better protection during the hot months. Whaddya think?

[Fredsvt]

Look at the product data sheets for most low HTHS 5w30, they can be as thin at high temps than many 5w20 products. A euro spec, high HTHS (or thick) 5w30 can have viscosity at high temps much like a 10w60 oil depending on the specs its approved for.

Honda/Ford who started the 5w20 specs have a range of high temp viscosity that's quite narrow as to what's acceptable. Many 5w30 products have a wider range allowable.

In your area, a 5w30 isn't going to make much difference as far as cold start, neither would it here. 5w (w for winter, not weight)

You don't want to run a much thicker oil at any time with low friction rings. But, a 5w30 isn't going to make much difference. Especially in your area. Put in a Honda HTO-06 approved product and you'll be fine. Or a GM 5w30 dexos1 product. You might see a small mpg decrease.

Any thicker, such as a 10wxx which is a cheap base stock product or even cheaper 20wxx would be a disaster.

The "crosshatch" is supposed to be there, that's the factory honing marks, any vertical scoring isn't. If the factory crosshatch is gone and the liners look mirror smooth, the liners are worn excessively. I'd have to see pictures of a motor with the head off or via a high def borescope to see what some are saying.

Vertical scoring can occur from several reasons:

a K&N style non-filter air filter letting dirt in and gouging the walls and "honing" the cylinders with the silicon from the dust getting in the motor. I've seen so much of this, it makes me sick.

Overheating.

Detonation.

Excessive high revs after the car has idled to high temps.

Beating the engine to high revs when cold before the pistons can expand properly and they slap badly and score the walls.

I see so many vehicles in fleets, Fords (4 cyl to V8s) with up to 600k using 5w20 with no issues, and many Hondas that run 5w20 with up to 300k.

The Ford trucks I see with issues all have run improper oils, either lack of changes, cheapo 10w40 or worse a diesel 15w40 in the V8s requiring 5w20. (the fleet shops think if the diesels are ok with that oil, it's fine for all) They all end up with massive timing chain, vct and oil burning issues. Just wait till those shops see most of the modern diesels requiring special syn 5w40 oils or 0w/5w or10w30 diesel oils.

[WyattEarp]

Originally Posted by PMAN63

Hello All Accord owners.

Has anyone had an 03" 4CYL 2.4 L with an over consumption oil issue? Mine consumes a fair bit of oil every two weeks I need to top up the oil. There are no leaks and if does not burn any in the exhaust either. Is this normal with these Honda's? And if so then why? I have a 188,000KM's on it now..Honda claims that it should consume 1.5 L of oil or so...Does not make any sense to me. Would love hear from someone if they have the same problem.

Thanks

Yes I am having the exact same issue. I live in Tennessee, and mine is going through 2-3 quarts of oil every 900 miles.

03 Honda Accord
4 Door EX
5 speed
2.4 liter DOHC
Power everything (locks, doors, sunroof, mirrors, etc)
purchased with 79,000 miles
currently has 95,000 miles on it

I have no leaks, chassis and undercarriage are both clean. but it has been noted I have had some smoke coming out the back by a friend who was following me on the highway back in May, but he couldn't recall the color of the smoke.

the inside of my tailpipe doesn't have soot in it, but it has a black oily residue coating the inside of the tailpipe.

I bought with 79,000 miles back in January, and it currently has 95,000 miles on it. I bought it from a car lot, and it was clean as could be when I got it, carfax was clean, no engine codes (tested at the parts store).

I had a compression check done it back in April

Dry Comp Test with fuel pump fuse still plugged in
#1 - 180 psi
#2 - 170 psi
#3 - 170 psi
#4 - 170 psi


Dry Comp Test with fuel pump fuse unplugged
#1 - 170 psi
#2 - 160 psi
#3 - 160 psi
#4 - 160 psi


Wet Comp Test (adding tsp of oil to each cylinder) w/ fuel pump fuse unplugged
#1 - 178 psi
#2 - 188 psi
#3 - 186 psi
#4 - 188 psi

Spark Plugs pics.

Far Driver side spark plug


Middle Driver side spark plug


Middle Passenger Side Spark Plug


Far Passenger Side Spark Plug


It's going through 2-3 quarts per 900 miles on the highway (it's really bad on long road trips, between 70-85 mph). It takes longer for it to burn oil when it's city driving. I've already tried swapping out the PCV Valve, and giving it a good oil change with oil from Honda and an OEM Filter and that didn't do any good.

It's not pulling any codes either, no SES light, no Check Engine light, no oil lights or any other warning indicators. Other than the oil consumption issue, it drives great, gets 32 mpg and doesn't give me any trouble, but I'm tired of going through almost 10 quarts of oil per month.

Originally Posted by accordslacker

Replace the pcv valve. This issue has been documented on here numerous times. I had a similar issue, but replaced the pcv valve before it got anywhere near as bad as yours.

The issue may have been documented, but my car is doing near the exact same thing as the OP's car, and I've replaced my PCV Valve and it did not resolve the issue. Besides, PCV Valves are usually baffled and I've never heard of 2-3 quarts blowing by a baffled PCV Valve every 900 miles, that doesn't make any sense at all.

Originally Posted by PMAN63

So here we are with my 03 Honda Accord Coupe and the oil consumption. I have to fill up a litre of oil every 1600 km....How is that normal??? This is unheard of. Honda has shown me no consideration on this issue. Would love to start a class action law suit on this with them. Has anyone here in Canada had any luck on this issue? Would really like to hear your story on this and maybe a solution?

I don't understand how Honda has this many complaints on the 03-05's yet that haven't issued a TSB, Recall or anything. Google shows tons of complaints, forum threads regarding this issue, yet they fail to address it.

What I would do, is take it to a mechanic as FREDSVT stated. have them do a compression check (this will confirm the piston rings being good or bad), then have them take the boroscope and visually check the pistons as well. If that's not it, have the cam cover removed, and the valve stem seals and guides inspected. Have a leakdown test done on it. The mechanic should be able to tell you what's wrong with it. Have him run a computer diagnostic to confirm the existence of no codes. Make sure to get a receipt print out from the mechanic with itemized listing of what he did. If he did a compression check it needs to be clearly stated. If he did a boroscope inspection of the head, it needs to be stated. Make sure that the computer diagnostic was done is itemized and that it revealed no codes either and if possible get a print of out of the diagnostic scan. Make sure the total amount of the diagnostic charges with tax are on the receipt. Make sure the Company Name, Address, Phone and Fax # are on the Receipt and the name of the mechanic who did the diagnostic, as well as the Date and Time.

Now get on google and go find all the complaints regarding THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE regarding 2003-2005 Honda Accords, with 2.4L DOHC having abnormal oil consumption issues that you can. Every thread, every Consumer Complaint website, bookmark them, and print them off. Be sure to take a yellow or pink highlighter and highlight the relevant information so it will make it easier for someone to read.

Now write a letter to the President of Honda in Japan. Be professional in the letter! Proper format, proper heading, date, introduce yourself, state when you bought the car, how many miles, the problem it is having. Then refer to all of the complaints, point out there seems to be no resolution as to the problem and you're frustrated that the problem can't seem to be fixed and explain that you're a devout Honda Customer, you would like to remain a Honda Customer and politely ask them to buy you a new Longblock (DO NOT ASK FOR AN ENTIRE BRAND NEW MOTOR) for your Honda, and to cover the cost of labor as well for installation. Be sure to include all the material that you printed off in regards to the complaints (and make sure you have them bookmarked for future reference!) and forum threads regarding the issue. Include a copy of your Diagnostic Receipt from the mechanic shop, and the diagnostic code print out. Get a big Manila Folder (make sure you have copies of EVERYTHING you sent to him for your records) and send it off to Japan and see what happens.

Worst that can happen is they can say no. However, the President of Honda in Japan, takes his customers very seriously and he takes customer loyalty very seriously. My father bought a brand new Honda Odyssey in 2001. It had transmission problems at 90,000 miles, (10,000 miles before the warranty went out.) The warranty covered it and they put in a BRAND NEW transmission. The second transmission went out at 150,000 miles but the warranty was expired and the dealer wouldn't cover it. My Dad wrote Honda USA President, he wouldn't cover it either, so then my dad paid out of pocket to have the transmission repaired by a local shop. But that 2nd transmission shouldn't have failed at 60,000 miles, so my Dad wrote the President of Honda in Japan, and they reimbursed him 90% of his costs, all my dad had to cover was the tax on the labor. He received a letter stating that they were forwarding it to the USA Divison, and then the USA Divsion sent him a check for 90% of the cost of the repairs.

Originally Posted by MATTpgh

I have a 2003 Accord Coupe with the 4 cyl, it uses 1 quart every 400 miles. It had a lot of white build-up on the spark plugs in cylinders 1 and 4.

My dad insists that its probably not bad oil control rings, and that it is caused by a plugged oil drain port. So, oil would be laying on the top of the engine with no way down but through the cylinders. He said that happened with one of his old trucks ('88 Chevy Cheyenne 1500 6cyl) and once he cleaned the drain port he never had another problem. Is this possible?

get a compression check! then get a leakdown test done. my 03 EX is burning through just about as much oil as yours is, mine's burning 2-3 quarts every 900 miles.

Originally Posted by Fredsvt

Rings.

If you can rent or buy an inexpensive borescope, you can look down into the cylinder. If the edges of the pistons are perfectly clean, the oil rings are dead. If you see tons of crusty carbon, it can be valve stem seals.

It's almost impossible to plug the oil returns on Hondas, there's a whole bunch, not just two little ones on an old school 4.3, you'd have to not change the oil for multiple 10s of thousands of miles with the worst possible driving habits to sludge it up enough to do so.

Pulling the cam cover is easy enough.

the boroscope idea is a good one, I'm gonna take mine in before long and get that done.

it might not be his rings, he needs a compression check to confirm it.

Originally Posted by rufusvonstorm

Still using a fair amount of oil, about 1-2quarts between changes.
110k miles.
Medium-heavy soot in the tailpipe.
Power is good, smooth pull in all gears.
MPG is good, getting 32mpg at 80mph.

Stem seals have been replaced, PCV has been replaced.

I guess I'm going to start fouling cats and o2 sensors eventually?

Live with it for another 100k, then it's time to rebuild?

Thanks

wow...you replaced your valve stem seals and it still didn't resolve the issue?

what was your oil consumption before the valve stem seal job compared to after? any noticeable difference?

[WyattEarp]

I got this address and the guy's name in Japan that my dad wrote to Honda in Japan, off the letter that's still in his filing cabinet. (he still even has the check stub receipt of the check they sent him )

Addresses to submit your complaints to

Honda Motor Company Ltd.
8-1 Hon-Cho, Wako-City, Saitama 351-0188 JAPAN
(048) 452-1000
Mr. Cheiko Sakamoto
Parts, Sales and Service Divison


American Honda Motor Co., Inc.
Honda Automobile Customer Service
Torrance, CA 90501-2746
Mail Stop: 500 - 2N - 7D
President: Dick Colliver
1-800-999-1009

[WyattEarp]

I've posted the cause of the high oil consumption problem and the solution in another related thread.

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/sh...t=55979&page=3

[Parsons51]

At what rate of oil consumption are we talking if the oil rings are in bad shape?

I done the numbers on my oil consumption ('03 I4 Auto) - 0.85 qt/9000 km. That doesn't seem to be that harsh. That's about 65% highway, 35% city. I know my PCV valve fails to make that ticking sound when the hose is pinched, so I went ahead and purchased one online.

Should I expect to see any decrease in oil consumption once the new PCV valve is in place?

[SatinSilver]

^So 5592 in miles using .85 quart is very good esp with hwy miles. Change out pcv valve and top off with or do a full oil change with Valvoline Maxlife or similiar HM oil. It worked for me on a 6th gen I4 caught very early on. Then just go back to regular oil or whatever you normally use.

[WyattEarp]

Originally Posted by Parsons51

At what rate of oil consumption are we talking if the oil rings are in bad shape?

I done the numbers on my oil consumption ('03 I4 Auto) - 0.85 qt/9000 km. That doesn't seem to be that harsh. That's about 65% highway, 35% city. I know my PCV valve fails to make that ticking sound when the hose is pinched, so I went ahead and purchased one online.

Should I expect to see any decrease in oil consumption once the new PCV valve is in place?

2-3 qts every 900 miles is about what mine is going through with bad oil control rings.

if you're only losing less than 1 qt, per 5k miles, I think you're in pretty good shape. I doubt you'll see much change in consumption with a new PCV Valve, your car is consuming oil at a very low and normal rate and well within the standard.

i think .85 per 5000 miles is pretty good, wish my car did that, i would be tickled pink with that kind of consumption.

[Sworkhard]

Well, at least I know where to look if mine ever gets that bad. My car has 260000km on it though, so the 3-4qt I go through per 8000km doesn't seem too out of line to me. Some oils will do better than others for me. I've had my oil light come on within 4000km before (Pennzoil Platinum), but then with a different oil (Valvoline Maxline Synthetic and Mobil 1) it would only burn 1/2 a quart the first 3000-4000km and use about 2qt per 3-4000km thereafter. When oil consumption problems first hit me, I seafoamed it, then did a run with AutoRx in PP, and then switched to Maxlife and Mobil 1. Anything else seems to get burned in no time. I always carry a 5qt jug of cheap (whatever's on sale) oil to top up with. Anyhow, hope it gets fixed for a reasonable price.

[Parsons51]

Originally Posted by Sworkhard

Well, at least I know where to look if mine ever gets that bad. My car has 260000km on it though, so the 3-4qt I go through per 8000km doesn't seem too out of line to me. Some oils will do better than others for me. I've had my oil light come on within 4000km before (Pennzoil Platinum), but then with a different oil (Valvoline Maxline Synthetic and Mobil 1) it would only burn 1/2 a quart the first 3000-4000km and use about 2qt per 3-4000km thereafter. When oil consumption problems first hit me, I seafoamed it, then did a run with AutoRx in PP, and then switched to Maxlife and Mobil 1. Anything else seems to get burned in no time. I always carry a 5qt jug of cheap (whatever's on sale) oil to top up with. Anyhow, hope it gets fixed for a reasonable price.

Sorry to hear you have to commit to putting so much oil in your Accord. I'm rolling up on 200,000 km quite fast. I'm proud to say that the previous owner took care of my car quite well. But then again, in 60k (approx. 2 years time) my car could start burning considerable amounts of oil. Right now its not costing me much money and it's a sense of security adding fresh oil periodically in a "slightly" used Honda. :O

[Sworkhard]

Originally Posted by Parsons51

Sorry to hear you have to commit to putting so much oil in your Accord. I'm rolling up on 200,000 km quite fast. I'm proud to say that the previous owner took care of my car quite well. But then again, in 60k (approx. 2 years time) my car could start burning considerable amounts of oil. Right now its not costing me much money and it's a sense of security adding fresh oil periodically in a "slightly" used Honda. :O

Mine started using oil around 220k. Car is driven mostly at highway speed though, which aggravates the situation. When I first got the car it used 1/2qt in 8000-10000km (about one month's driving at the time), but suddenly began using oil (first noticed when the low oil light came on). You'll know when your down 2-3qts (oil light won't come on yet) because when you accelerate out of a corner, vtec won't engage until your driving straight (normally does so around 2200 or 2800rpm, I forget which) so it won't have much power, and then you straighten out and bam, your power is back.

I ran a K & N style air filter for about 15000km's (came with the injen intake) and it was during that time when I started getting the oil consumption. I have since switched to a AEM dryflow filter that is supposed to filter a lot better. The oem filter is probably the best though.

Edit: I think I might pull my plugs and see if there are any signs of burning oil on them. If nothing else it will help me determine if it's burning oil or if it's leaving in other ways.

Since it only costs me $10 or so in top up oil every 8000-10000km, I have no reason to fix it unless it gets a lot worse (ie, 2-3qt in 1500km).