Drive Accord Honda Forums banner

Dual Personality: City=Putt Putt/CVT surge. HWY=Smooth, responsive, 40+ MPG

7K views 69 replies 20 participants last post by  II Kings 9:20 
#1 ·
I drove to the city today 70 miles freeway and spent a fair amount of time driving in the city. I've come to realize that the CVT judder I occasionally experience is the "real judder' and I felt it today twice and it occured, like before, coming from freeway speed and hitting traffic lights off of an exit. The judder occured after a couple of lights.

Frequently I experience what I am now calling "CVT surge". It's as if the belts wind up at low speed and catch/release causing a pulsation or surge in the drivetrain. I often feel it usually accelerating and sometimes braking. Dealer says "normal" and it may well be. The other low speed unpleasantry is the putt putt 4 cyl engine under throttle: vibration and noise that make it feel like a cheap economy car. NOT IMPRESSED.

The freeway behavior is fantastic. Nice throttle response, quiet engine, (I could actually be talked into believing it was not a 4 cly if I were a passenger), ultra smooth and responsive CVT, 40+ MPG at 70 MPH, stable suspension up to 90-95 MPH. I HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO COMPLAINTS WITH FREEWAY PERFORMANCE

Thats the dilemma. I'm getting more frustrated driving in the city and love it on the freeway. I do a lot more city driving on a daily basis and it's just so "meh" in the city. I have a feeling I'll be in something else within 6 months and Jr can take "something else" to college in 4 years.
 
See less See more
#5 ·
I drove to the city today 70 miles freeway and spent a fair amount of time driving in the city. I've come to realize that the CVT judder I occasionally experience is the "real judder' and I felt it today twice and it occured, like before, coming from freeway speed and hitting traffic lights off of an exit. The judder occured after a couple of lights.

Frequently I experience what I am now calling "CVT surge". It's as if the belts wind up at low speed and catch/release causing a pulsation or surge in the drivetrain. I often feel it usually accelerating and sometimes braking. Dealer says "normal" and it may well be. The other low speed unpleasantry is the putt putt 4 cyl engine under throttle: vibration and noise that make it feel like a cheap economy car. NOT IMPRESSED.

The freeway behavior is fantastic. Nice throttle response, quiet engine, (I could actually be talked into believing it was not a 4 cly if I were a passenger), ultra smooth and responsive CVT, 40+ MPG at 70 MPH, stable suspension up to 90-95 MPH. I HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO COMPLAINTS WITH FREEWAY PERFORMANCE
Thats the dilemma. I'm getting more frustrated driving in the city and love it on the freeway. I do a lot more city driving on a daily basis and it's just so "meh" in the city. I have a feeling I'll be in something else within 6 months and Jr can take "something else" to college in 4 years.
Yep. I agree, it's better than I had expected before but having driven this car for a while now, it's definitely not something I'd call as smooth as "a baby's behind." It's much better cruising on highway, but even then, the acceleration isn't as linear as even the k24 5AT I had. As you stomp on gas, it sort of hesitates for a split second, then it SURGES forward. It's certainly better than the Altima's version I had driven before, but Honda needs to either address this by further polishing/updating this transmission, or replace it with 6AT for 10th g if they want to further expand sales of the Accord.

The engine/CVT combo also sounds terrible when I opened it up on the freeway. Nothing like the K24 or J35 with regular 5AT I had.

On the positive side, this car does get amazing mpg! Just think of the great mpg you'll get with this CVT vs. cars with bigger engine when you're stuck in traffic next time. You'll feel much better.

I know I'll happily live with the minor gripes I have for now! :D
 
#6 ·
King, ol' sport, I think what you're experiencing is endemic of the CVT breed. Not typical, perhaps, but not atypical either. Honda's variation on the design may be better than most -- dunno -- but, for better or worse, CVTs clearly are where the industry is headed in pursuit of better fuel mileage for low-cost and moderately expensive automobiles. No doubt further improvements are forthcoming. And for those who are willing and able to pay more for a more expensive automobile, multi-geared conventional transmissions, such as Acura's 8- and 9-speed ZF designs, apparently are what the future holds.
 
#16 ·
And for those who are willing and able to pay more for a more expensive automobile, multi-geared conventional transmissions, such as Acura's 8- and 9-speed ZF designs, apparently are what the future holds.
For the record - The Acura 9 speed trans is a ZF design - the 8 speed is an in-house DCT.

Going to give the TLX a serious look as well as the V6 Accord.

While the MPGs are amazing, the V6, according to people here, gets high 30s on the freeway. Mazda's 6AT beats the Accord at least on the EPA ratings so I'm not sold that CVTs inherently get better MPGs. Acura's 8 DCT looks great on paper with a torque converter that smooths it out in auto mode
The 8 speed DCT isn't always so smooth in the city going from light to light when you run in normal or sport mode - in econ (fun sucking) mode it's pretty good.

Keep in mind that while the TLX is certainly more refined (less NVH) the 2.4 engine is mostly the same as the one in your Accord now. It's plenty quick but it will never be as smooth as the V6.
 
#7 ·
I'm OK with CVT

replace it with 6AT for 10th g if they want to further expand sales of the Accord.

Why not 8 or 9 gears?

While Mazda's latest AT has been highly praised, I like my CVT better. Smoother.

BTW, how to you get 40 mpg on the highway? On a 500 mile trip I only got 34.
 
#8 ·
replace it with 6AT for 10th g if they want to further expand sales of the Accord.

Why not 8 or 9 gears?

While Mazda's latest AT has been highly praised, I like my CVT better. Smoother.

BTW, how to you get 40 mpg on the highway? On a 500 mile trip I only got 34.
If you drive at around 65mph and don't go higher, you will easily get over 40mpg.
 
#9 ·
OP, do you drive in ECON mode in city? I drive in ECON at all times and like someone said before, pretend there's an egg between my foot and the gas pedal, and I get silky smooth performance, even in city. The few times I got careless is when I experienced jerkiness.
 
#10 ·
How many miles on your car? Mine has not experienced any judder, surge or anything you describe and I have just turned 12,000 miles. When there is no traffic I drive on the freeway between 70 and 75 MPH and get a solid 30 MPG calculated after filling the car from the the fuel pump and not the computer which is about one and a half MPG optimistic. I drve in city traffic about 30% highway 30% and stop and go freeway congestion 40% of the time. That's about 60% in traffic going to and from work daily. I have been driving a rented 2015 Hyundai Sonata all this week and there is no decreeable difference between the two transmissions. I don't think the Sonata has a CVT transmission.

Sorry to hear that the dealer says that your transmission complaints are normal. If that's the case mine operates abnormally well. Go to another dealer's service department to get a second opinion and open a case with Honda.
 
#12 ·
Thanks, 15K miles. The CVT is not terrible, just progressively annoying and I don't experience any of this with my 12 MDX. At speeds of 35 MPH and higher, I don't feel any difference between the CVT and a regular tranny like your rental unless I step on it and the RPMs rise to 3-5K and sit there until the engine catches up (rubber band effect) at which time the RPMs drop. This is distinctly different from an AT and that, my friend, is normal CVT behavior and expected.
 
#11 ·
Going to give the TLX a serious look as well as the V6 Accord.

I did 350 miles to Niagra Falls and got 41 going and 38 return into a head wind and with AC on. Most recent 70 miler to the city 40.5 which included some city miles in that figure.

While the MPGs are amazing, the V6, according to people here, gets high 30s on the freeway. Mazda's 6AT beats the Accord at least on the EPA ratings so I'm not sold that CVTs inherently get better MPGs. Acura's 8 DCT looks great on paper with a torque converter that smooths it out in auto mode but the 9 spd ZF which is shared with the Chrysler 200 is rated at a whopping 36 MPG in the smallish 200. You gain 3 extra gears and less MPGs than the competition: Fail. I also read that testers could not get it to shift into 9th gear. I imagine TLX designers did a better job in programming but this is he same bunch that developed the surging CVT.
 
#13 ·
I've noticed some studdering here and there, more noticable in ECO. However, I'm going to give it some time and see how it plays out. I'm not real comfortable with the dealer tearing into my CVT this early, or maybe even at all. This CVT is MUCH better than the Nissans I have had in the past.
 
#15 ·
Cars are a multitude of compromises.
In regards to the CVT, sure it sees that it's not the smoothest of transmissions at low speed driving, but the pickup response is great, as is the acceleration, and Especially the fuel economy.

I can't imagine trading in a car like the OP just because the transmission is a little rough, but then again, you do help keep the economic wheels turning.
 
#20 ·
Here's a YouTube video of two Accord Sports going head to head Max RPM to 60 MPH. One is a six speed and the other is a CVT. If you fast forward to five minutes you will see the CVT instrument cluster. The RPM goes to the rev limiter and the speed increases smoothly. Maybe this is not what you are talking about.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a2rRmlf-vRE
 
#21 ·
Exactly, that's the motorboat behavior of the CVT, not a criticism just an observation. That does not bother me and as mentioned elsewhere, CVTs are different. It's the low speed surge and occasional judder that's the issue I have. CVTs are supposed to be smooth, surge should not be part of it. I am going to run the next week out of econ and see if I notice a difference. Previously I have not in either surge or MPG in brief testing.
 
#23 ·
Agree with you on the city driving experience, it's miserable. My 4-cyl/CVT juddered occasionally from a stop with light throttle. Also it bugged me that from a stop in city driving, it seemed the computer wanted to keep it below 3k RPM and was annoyingly fighting to keep the RPMs down. You have to really hammer the throttle to get it above that 3k RPM level in city driving and if you do, the CVT is baffled by it and the response is not good and cannot keep up. Upon heavy throttle, the response from the CVT is not pleasant. Abundant noise from both the engine and transmission. At low speeds, it sounds like a tractor. With heavier throttle, it accelerates like and sounds like the motorboating you describe in a later post. In addition, the 4-cyl at idle while in D is not always smooth, some vibration can be felt (characteristic of larger displacement 4-cyl engines).

The V6/6AT is none of those things. It's quiet and extremely refined. No judders from the transmission ever, just pure smoothness and does not lag on power delivery. At lower speeds, the engine bay is nearly silent, all you hear is that sweet V6 exhaust note. At higher RPM's the engine comes alive but is still far quieter than the 4-cyl. It accelerates like at freight train and with little drama and noise. At idle in D, you'd be hard pressed to know that the engine is on at all.
 
#24 ·
That sums it up pretty well for the city experience. Finally, somebody has expressed my thoughts better than I can. Some may consider using the word "tractor" offensive to their beloved brand but you gotta call them as you see them and that pretty well nails it.
 
#37 ·
Others have claimed the fix is to drive in Sport mode. The problem with that is that it is not practical to drive that way because the revs are too high for everyday driving. Sport mode is more for short bursts. Also, driving in Sport mode to eliminate judders completely erases the benefits boasted by many (better MPGs). If the CVT was engineered correctly, then you should not have to drive in sport mode to get a smoother feel. If you're driving the 4-cyl in sport mode with any regularity, then you will get worse MPGs in the city than I get with the V6 in D.
 
#40 ·
Yep, I agree. Sport mode can be fun but driving in it 100% of the time isn't an option for me either. The shift point of 3,000 RPM's is way too high IMHO. Something around 2,400-2,500 RPM's would've been a lot more reasonable. But even at that rate, the mileage hit would still be too high to take.
 
#48 ·
FWIW, I'm with Steve88 on this one. I know that Honda's CVT is one of the best, if not THE best CVTs ever produced by the automobile industry. And the fact that Honda is expanding its use to the CR-V speaks volumes. Clearly, it works in its current application, and despite a few issues related to how it works, it appears to be durable. I want to like it; I tried to like it; but I can't. IMHO, it fundamentally changes the entire character of the car. That's why (again, IMHO) Honda is sticking with gears, and lots of them, in the Acura TSX. It's also an acknowledgement of the fact that there are limitations on the amount of horsepower and foot-pounds of torque that a CVT can cope with -- remember, we're talking about a belt and pulley arrangement here -- driving a 3500 lbs. automobile. Finally, I find it ironic that Honda, which historically sought to improve the driving experience and tactile feel of its automobiles, has adopted the use of CVTs, and Toyota, often thought of producing automobiles devoid of character, is now committed to producing four-cylinder Camrys with "conventional" six-speed automatic transmissions. Whodathunkit?
 
#49 ·
FWIW, I'm with Steve88 on this one. I know that Honda's CVT is one of the best, if not THE best CVTs ever produced by the automobile industry. And the fact that Honda is expanding its use to the CR-V speaks volumes. Clearly, it works in its current application, and despite a few issues related to how it works, it appears to be durable. I want to like it; I tried to like it; but I can't. IMHO, it fundamentally changes the entire character of the car. That's why (again, IMHO) Honda is sticking with gears, and lots of them, in the Acura TSX. It's also an acknowledgement of the fact that there are limitations on the amount of horsepower and foot-pounds of torque that a CVT can cope with -- remember, we're talking about a belt and pulley arrangement here -- driving a 3500 lbs. automobile. Finally, I find it ironic that Honda, which historically sought to improve the driving experience and tactile feel of its automobiles, has adopted the use of CVTs, and Toyota, often thought of producing automobiles devoid of character, is now committed to producing four-cylinder Camrys with "conventional" six-speed automatic transmissions. Whodathunkit?
One of the first reviews I read about the TLX said that Honda Corporate originally wanted to put a CVT in that car but the engineers at Acura fought tooth and nail against that. There was a logjam over the issue and neither side wanted to back down but eventually Honda gave in to the wishes of Acura and let them put a regular transmission in. I think the review was in MotorTrend or AutoWeek...I'll try to find it.

Anyway, what I've found is if I just accelerate in a "reasonable" manner, my CVT is fine. It's when I really push it hard from a dead stop that the car just seems baffled at times (poor throttle response). So, it's caused me to change my driving style a bit to accommodate the CVT. I don't hate it. In some ways, it's more relaxing and it definitely saves gas and wear/tear on the engine/tranny. But some of the people behind me aren't too thrilled about it, I must say. And the overall driving experience is not as revvy and peppy.

If I could do it over again, I may have taken a chance with another maker. Maybe Mazda, VW, BMW, or Volvo. I've been spoiled by two very good ownership experiences with two previous Accords (in my sig below) so I thought another Accord would be a safe bet. Again, I don't hate this car or regret buying it 100% of the time. It's just been an adjustment getting used to driving a CVT for the first time.

Since probably 80% of the people out there are not enthusiasts like us, most people won't even notice stuff like this. So, in that regard, Honda hit a home run with this car. They built a car that is very safe, roomy, fuel-efficient, handles relatively well, is attractive, and affordable. That's what 80% or more of the public wants. People like us who debate and discuss what the acceleration feels like from 0 to 40 versus 40 to 70 are in the minority.

But I think it's worth noting that CVT technology may not necessarily take over the entire automotive world in the future. Audi, Toyota, and Acura are perfect examples of leading manufacturers who have yet to fully embrace it (and in the case of Acura and Audi, they're not using it on any of their cars).
 
#52 ·
I actually have a different take. I am coming from a 2010 Accord coupe 5AT and have had Honda's in the past too. The one thing which always annoyed me about their motors and transmissions in the previous gens was the lack of low end torque and jerky/hesitant transmissions. I don't feel that at all with the CVT. The motor is torque happy at low RPMs and I can quickly gather up speed without having to wait for the gears to kick-in. I can identify with the rubber feel that you mentioned at times, but that happens very few and far. I live in the MD -DC area and the rush hour traffic can be nasty. This car has been the most comfortable and responsive that I have been in. Overall this makes for a good ride car when it comes to the transmission.

The only gripe I have with the 9th Gen is the steering feel or rather the lack of it. The electric steering has really killed the drive feel. In that way, this car is so different from my 2010 coupe which felt heavy and so connected to on the road. Almost a German car feel. But this is what is happening in the auto industry in general - a trade off to get that higher MPG.
 
#54 ·
Interesting you don't like the steering feel. My previous vehicle was a BMW 3-series, which are basically the standard for steering feel in a sedan. And I actually think the Accord is pretty darn good with the steering feel. It's not numb dead-center (like the Camry), and I think provides solid feedback.

I had a 2007 Accord V6 SE before that, and while the steering was good in that car as well, I felt it was artificially "heavy" to try to mimic a German car, without providing the requisite amount of feedback that should come with it.

I'm with you on the CVT though. The car feels very responsive and I don't miss the shift shocks.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top