Going from Synthetic to Regular... Good idea?

[sjlee]

Originally Posted by Ice

Mr. *******

Your posts are always insightful and well respected. I'm 100% with you regarding the oil. Your assessment regarding oil filters, however, may have been a bit outdated, at least in the case with Honda. Honda OEM filters have always been outstanding in the past, up until around 2004 I believe, when they changed the P/N from A01 to A02. They also changed the manufacturer from Filtech to Fram. Don't get me wrong, Fram makes fantastic air filter, but when it comes to oil filter, it's more marketing than engineering. People have cut out Fram filters to examine and in every case, they found the build quality and material use in Fram oil filters to be vastly inferior to competition. A few examples:

1) Fram end caps are made out of cardboard, instead of aluminum like competition
2) Fram bypass valve is made out of plastic, not silicone.
3) Fram filter media could not hold shape, torn, holes in them.
4) Fram filter cost just as much, if not higher than competition.

Now, OEM standard maybe different, however, pictures don't lie:

Comparison of Fram and Honda A01 (made by Filtech)



Comparison of Mobil 1 and Honda A02 (made by Fram)



Honda A02 filter is on the right. Note the same shoddy construction with cardboard end cap and plastic valves, like the Fram filter above.

Even el cheapo Super Tech filters at Walmart are still built to higher standard than 99% of Fram filters.

This only apply to Honda OEM filters. Toyota and Nissan are still using Denso as their suppliers. Ford's Motor Craft is excellent. My 2 cents.

One thing to note is that Fram offers multiple oil filters. The one pictured above is an Extra Guard. I believe the rest of their lineup (Tough Guard, Extended Guard and Synthetic) are better constructed.

I believe that Filtech still makes some Honda-brand filters... like the one for the S2000.

[HADriver06]

Originally Posted by andysinnh

But I'd say that for 95 percent of the people on this forum, regular non-syn oil is more than sufficient for 5k intervals - but many choose to spend more $$ for peace of mind, even if it's not justified.

Originally Posted by sjlee

It is true, however, most people don't do only one type of driving. In my experience, you can safely go 5-6k miles between oil changes with conventional.

Got it! So basically, doing 5k OCI is rather pointless in normal driving.

[J30A5Refined]

Originally Posted by HADriver06

With the mileage on my car (about 33k) now I am thinking about taking the car in soon for an oil change and inspection before the bumper to bumper warranty runs out. I've been maintaining the car at an independent shop and have been using the M1 5w20 synthetic for all oil changes but the dealership where I'm taking it in only uses the Honda brand engine oil.

So, here is the question, would going from synthetic oil to regular oil (and perhaps stick with it) cause any damage to the car??? I searched a bit but there seems to have conflicting opinions on this issue(some say it's ok while others say it could cause leaking and other damages etc).

What's your take on this?

I think it will cause damage but not physical but more synergistic because your wear patterns were built around synthetic and now you're going against the grain with dino. You should have started with dino and then possibly a blend and teetered on the blend until you could commit to a full synthetic.

[accord4daddy]

Originally Posted by Ice

Mr. *******

Your posts are always insightful and well respected. I'm 100% with you regarding the oil. Your assessment regarding oil filters, however, may have been a bit outdated, at least in the case with Honda. Honda OEM filters have always been outstanding in the past, up until around 2004 I believe, when they changed the P/N from A01 to A02. They also changed the manufacturer from Filtech to Fram. Don't get me wrong, Fram makes fantastic air filter, but when it comes to oil filter, it's more marketing than engineering. People have cut out Fram filters to examine and in every case, they found the build quality and material use in Fram oil filters to be vastly inferior to competition. A few examples:

1) Fram end caps are made out of cardboard, instead of aluminum like competition
2) Fram bypass valve is made out of plastic, not silicone.
3) Fram filter media could not hold shape, torn, holes in them.
4) Fram filter cost just as much, if not higher than competition.

Now, OEM standard maybe different, however, pictures don't lie:

Comparison of Fram and Honda A01 (made by Filtech)



Comparison of Mobil 1 and Honda A02 (made by Fram)



Honda A02 filter is on the right. Note the same shoddy construction with cardboard end cap and plastic valves, like the Fram filter above.

Even el cheapo Super Tech filters at Walmart are still built to higher standard than 99% of Fram filters.

This only apply to Honda OEM filters. Toyota and Nissan are still using Denso as their suppliers. Ford's Motor Craft is excellent. My 2 cents.

Everybody wants to compare Fram to stock. What about K&N? I have used there filters for around 5 years now on various applications and love them (Just a little pricey but Amazon always has them CHEAP). Hell I even use them on my wifes 2007 CR-V! And I go M1 on hers and my Accord but it is more for longevity as hers goes around 10K (Oil Life indicator) between changes and the Accord is around 7K but I have thought about extending that.

[sjlee]

Originally Posted by HADriver06

Got it! So basically, doing 5k OCI is rather pointless in normal driving.

Actually, I'm saying that with 5k mile OCIs in normal driving, you can use conventional oil without any problems.

[sjlee]

Originally Posted by J30A5Refined

I think it will cause damage but not physical but more synergistic because your wear patterns were built around synthetic and now you're going against the grain with dino. You should have started with dino and then possibly a blend and teetered on the blend until you could commit to a full synthetic.

[sjlee]

Originally Posted by accord4daddy

Everybody wants to compare Fram to stock. What about K&N? I have used there filters for around 5 years now on various applications and love them (Just a little pricey but Amazon always has them CHEAP). Hell I even use them on my wifes 2007 CR-V! And I go M1 on hers and my Accord but it is more for longevity as hers goes around 10K (Oil Life indicator) between changes and the Accord is around 7K but I have thought about extending that.

The reason why many people use Fram as a comparison is because that's an example of the least expensive way to make an oil filter that will still meet minimum requirements.

As far as K&N oil filters, they are made by Champion Labs who also make other brands (including AC Delco (some), Bosch, Mobile 1, STP, SuperTech, Valvoline). They are all good filters.

Here is a site that where someone cut open a bunch of filters and posted observations on each (including a K&N oil filter):

http://www.corolland.com/oil-filters.html

You might also consider heading over to www.bobistheoilguy.com where you'll find more than you'll ever want to read about oil and oil filters.

[accord4daddy]

Good Info guy!

[J30A5Refined]

Originally Posted by sjlee

As far as K&N oil filters, they are made by Champion Labs who also make other brands (including AC Delco (some), Bosch, Mobile 1, STP, SuperTech, Valvoline). They are all good filters.

Notice the very cheap Super Tech filter included on this list which is readily available in mass quantities at a myriad of Walmarts. Case closed, ST is THE FILTER to buy for the price *and* not for the price really since it's made by Champion Labs.

[sjlee]

Originally Posted by J30A5Refined

Notice the very cheap Super Tech filter included on this list which is readily available in mass quantities at a myriad of Walmarts. Case closed, ST is THE FILTER to buy for the price *and* not for the price really since it's made by Champion Labs.

Interestingly, some Walmarts don't carry much inventory for their SuperTech filters. I know the one by me has a much bigger space allocated for Fram filters, than SuperTech.

BTW - There are some differences between the different filters that Champion Labs makes... whether or not these differences make any real difference is another matter.

[sjlee]

Here's another site where oil filters were cut open and compared. While I don't necessarily agree with all the conclusions listed, I think it is still a good resource .

http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar...ers/index.html

[HADriver06]

Originally Posted by sjlee

Actually, I'm saying that with 5k mile OCIs in normal driving, you can use conventional oil without any problems.

Oops, I meant 5k OCI with synthetic is rather pointless. But I get what you mean. Thanks.

[okman4ever]

Originally Posted by Ice

Mr. *******

Your posts are always insightful and well respected. I'm 100% with you regarding the oil. Your assessment regarding oil filters, however, may have been a bit outdated, at least in the case with Honda. Honda OEM filters have always been outstanding in the past, up until around 2004 I believe, when they changed the P/N from A01 to A02. They also changed the manufacturer from Filtech to Fram. Don't get me wrong, Fram makes fantastic air filter, but when it comes to oil filter, it's more marketing than engineering. People have cut out Fram filters to examine and in every case, they found the build quality and material use in Fram oil filters to be vastly inferior to competition. A few examples:

1) Fram end caps are made out of cardboard, instead of aluminum like competition
2) Fram bypass valve is made out of plastic, not silicone.
3) Fram filter media could not hold shape, torn, holes in them.
4) Fram filter cost just as much, if not higher than competition.

Now, OEM standard maybe different, however, pictures don't lie:

Comparison of Fram and Honda A01 (made by Filtech)


Honda A02 filter is on the right. Note the same shoddy construction with cardboard end cap and plastic valves, like the Fram filter above.

Even el cheapo Super Tech filters at Walmart are still built to higher standard than 99% of Fram filters.

This only apply to Honda OEM filters. Toyota and Nissan are still using Denso as their suppliers. Ford's Motor Craft is excellent. My 2 cents.

so if the new OEM honda oil filters are not that great, then what would you request when you take the car in for an oil change at the honda dealership? do they carry other better filters? i'm asking because i should be due for an oil change soon, and was planning to take it to the dealership to be replaced with conventional honda oil.

[sjlee]

Originally Posted by okman4ever

so if the new OEM honda oil filters are not that great, then what would you request when you take the car in for an oil change at the honda dealership? do they carry other better filters? i'm asking because i should be due for an oil change soon, and was planning to take it to the dealership to be replaced with conventional honda oil.

Just like oil, many dealerships will install any oil filter that you bring it in.

Otherwise, Filtech still makes some Honda oil filters, so if you can figure out which one will fit the Accord, you could ask them to use that.

[Markus]

Originally Posted by J30A5Refined

Well first off, you did it backwards. You are supposed to use a dino initially followed by a blend and then gradually move to full blown synthetic if your car actually benefits from full synthetic. (which ironically Hondas dont) You see, thinner is better for a Honda. Thinner=cooler due to quicker and better flow and Honda's love better flow due to its tight tolerances and even tighter oil passageways. Keep in mind, 95% of wear happens at startup so you want something that flows fast and begins to protect right away, not some synthetic still stuck way down at the sump waiting for the car to warm. Then when it's time to flow in and around your engine, the pumping losses from that full synthetic being too thick leads to less FE so you take a hit. So how well is it protecting you ask and is it protecting any better then a semi-synthetic or a full blown synthetic? Well the Used Oil Analysis at BITOG tell a different story in that dinos and semi-syns protect as well if not better then full blown synthetic!!

Now I went from the first OCI of Mobil 5000(pure dino) followed by Mobil 7500 (semi-synthetic) for two OCIs before settling in with Motorcraft at about 21,500 miles on the Odometer until about 70 thousand(current) which is when I put in Valvoline Maxlife 5w-20 however I did try M1 5w-20 like you have been as well as PP 5w-20 and both oils lead to significant pumping losses (oil pump et al) leading to decreased FE. Now keep in mind that I change my oil promptly per the MMS which for me is around 5000 or so miles so the high heat and protection that Full Synthetic professes is basically irrelevant with FREQUENT oil changes as well as good additive packs being present in good semi-syns and dinos assisting in viscosity breakdowns. Reason being is additive packages are on hand in ANY good oils waiting to shore up viscosity breakdown as well friction modifiers (improve slickness) and anti-wear agents (protection)

Answer to your question: Full synthetics are only benefiticial of youre defying your MMS and going to 7k and beyond. No it won't hurt but your car might be confused perhaps even a bit schizophrenic and its chemical balance might be in a state of imbalance until it gets used to the dino oil again. Knowing a Honda tho, it won't care or raise a fuss one bit but why are ppl so averse to semi-synthetics/synthetic blends- the BEST of BOTH worlds?!!! I would try semi-synthetic.



That is why I used Mobil Driveclean 5000 on my first oil change followed by DC 7500 for two OCIs (until 22k on ODO) because Mobil 5k/75k are as close to the FF as you can get being EM makes the FF for Hondas!! Dude, your car hated the full synthetic diet you put it on and might sulk for along time afterward now because how you break-in the car with liquid engineering immediately after the mechanical engineering used to make it is of PARAMOUNT importance to the entire life of the car. You only have once change to break-in your car properly which is why buying a used car is so dicey: you never know how the car was broken in both physically and chemically!!

Where on earth do you get this misinformation?

There's no need to go from dino to semi-syn to syn. Absolutely none. If there really was a need don't you think the folks at Castrol, Mobil, Pennzoil, et. al., would explicitly say so? The very last thing these companies want is to have to foot the bill for engine repairs due to damage caused by going from dino straight to syn.

There's another myth in your diatribe. You seem to think that engines can't be broken-in when the crankcase is full of synthetic oil. If this is true then please do tell us why some vehicles come with synthetic oil as the factory fill and why automakers don't explicitly recommend against using synthetic during the break-in period.

See also Castrol Myths, Mobil myths, Pennzoil myths

I've used synthetic in all my cars from new. I've got a 97 Jag XJ6 with 180,000 miles and the engine's compression is as good now as when I bought the car. Ditto with my Yamaha-engined Taurus SHO. Care to explain how this can possibly be, given your statements of doom-and-gloom.

Your notion that cars can become "schizophrenic", and that they "get used to" different types of oil is, well, worthy of a trip to see a psychiatrist, I think.

As a final challenge please tell us how it is than synthetic oil is thicker than dino oil of the same weight. Be specific and be sure to provide a link to the data.