"Downshifting" and "Heel-Toe" Need help explaining/learning!

[JoeK]

Downshifting to assist in slowing down should be limited to extreme situations. Excessive downshifting as a braking technique can lead to premature clutch wear. Isn’t that what brakes are for?

I would much rather replace a set of pads and cut my rotors than replace my clutch.

Just my .02...

[HustlinTSX]

Originally Posted by thepeng23

Hi there! I am a fairly new manual driver, I've been driving manual for about 3 years now, but would like to learn more little tricks. One thing that has gotten my interest lately is "downshifting" as well as "heel-toe". I have been trying things out, but can't seem to get the hang of either one. Also, before anybody tells me that our car is not a sports car or a race car, or that brakes cost less to replace than clutch, I already know this, and I am not learning this with the intention to race or anything like that; I would simply like to learn how to do it.

When I downshift, the car just seems a bit jerky and I don't want to keep doing it incorrectly, since this may be bad for the car (I'm not sure if it is bad or not but would not like to do any damage, especially not to the clutch). Can anybody give me some tips/pointers on what I should know or what I should be doing to do it all correctly. And how will I know I am doing it correctly ( who knows maybe I am already doing the right thing and just feel like it is incorrect since it is new to me).

With heel-toe, I have tried looking up videos and tutorials, and I just don't seem to get the hang of it. I know that it is basically using your right foot to press the brake pedal with your toes and the gas pedal with your heel, in order to rev match. Even though I understand what this is basically, I do not fully understand it really. I would like to fully understand what is being done here, why it is being done, and how exactly it should be done (correctly). Also, is heel-toe only used in downshifts, or is it also used for regular shifting?

Any type of information or input on either of these would be much appreciated! Any help will be something! I would simply like to become a better stick shift driver, and take advantage of every positive to manual driving! I already have more fun in this car than my previous (automatic) car as it is, but it doesn't hurt to learn more and have more fun!

Downshifting will take a little practice to get good, but it will save on brakes and if done correctly, clutch wear should not be affected. I downshift before I brake (unless within 2k rpms of redline) and let the engine bring the car down in speed. After that, I'll use some brakes if I need to slow a little faster. Just remember, when you push in the clutch to downshift, you need to give a little throttle to keep your rpms up (doesn't take much when not in gear). Then let out of the clutch and it should feel smooth. If not, your rpms are too high or too low, just practice to get the feel down.

The main purpose for heel toe driving is racing, if you're not trying to shave off tenths on your laptime and driving around close to redline, it is almost useless on the street. It's a very high level technique though, you will not pick it up very easy and it will take practice. I'm not perfect, by any means.

Basically think you're coming into a fast turn at 100+ in 4th and you need to drop it down to third, first thing you're gonna do is start applying brakes with your right toes and then go for the clutch with your left foot. As soon as you feel the clutch disengage, you need to blip the throttle with your right heel to get the revs up a little before you move the shifter to third and release the clutch pedal.

All of this needs to happen in less than half a second, it's the hardest thing to do smoothly in any car. A lot of real races cars with sequential transmissions or paddle shifters have an auto-blip/clutch that does it for them.

If done correctly, you will be doing less wear on the clutch than not blipping. Some cars (and your shoe size/flexibility) make it almost impossible to heel toe, so people will use a variation of that and use the left side of their right foot for brake and the right side of the foot for the gas.

I personally would never go into neutral for anytime while down shifting, going into a lower gear, gives your brakes some help with the engine doing some of the braking. You can slow down faster with the engine in gear, if you had to.

Tape over your gauges or DO NOT look at them. You don't need to concentrate on them. Also, the slower the gear change, the hard it is to get the correct blip.

[HustlinTSX]

Originally Posted by JoeK

Downshifting to assist in slowing down should be limited to extreme situations. Excessive downshifting as a braking technique can lead to premature clutch wear. Isn’t that what brakes are for?

I would much rather replace a set of pads and cut my rotors than replace my clutch.

Just my .02...

If you rev match when downshifting, it doesn't wear the clutch out.

[07AccordEx-L]

I double clutch before taking corners so I can get out of them quicker and smoother. Why would you want to go into a corner at a high gear? I've tried heel and toe and cannot do it in this car for the life of me so I just single/double clutch depending on the situation.

[HustlinTSX]

Originally Posted by 07AccordEx-L

I double clutch before taking corners so I can get out of them quicker and smoother. Why would you want to go into a corner at a high gear? I've tried heel and toe and cannot do it in this car for the life of me so I just single/double clutch depending on the situation.

Double clutching is useless on a modern transmission.

[07AccordEx-L]

It is but my downshifts are smoother when I double clutch vs single clutching. I don't even have to look at the tach. It's preference.

[HustlinTSX]

Originally Posted by 07AccordEx-L

It is but my downshifts are smoother when I double clutch vs single clutching. I don't even have to look at the tach. It's preference.

And by double clutching you mean...

Push clutch in
Take out of gear
Move to neutral
let out clutch
push in clutch
move to next gear
trim the throttle as you release the clutch

? right

[07AccordEx-L]

Originally Posted by HustlinTSX

And by double clutching you mean...

Push clutch in
Take out of gear
Move to neutral
let out clutch
push in clutch
move to next gear
trim the throttle as you release the clutch

? right

No.

Clutch in
Move into neutral
Clutch out
Blip throttle
Clutch in
Move into lower gear
Clutch out

All in a quick and smooth manner.

[Markus]

Originally Posted by 07AccordEx-L

No.

Clutch in
Move into neutral
Clutch out
Blip throttle
Clutch in
Move into lower gear
Clutch out

All in a quick and smooth manner.

I'm confused.

You say in single clutching you watch the revs in order to rev-match. Then you say in double-clutching you blip the throttle. How is it that you don't watch the revs when double-clutching but do need to when single clutching?

I always rev-match by blipping the throttle in single-clutching and I don't need to watch the revs to do so.

[07AccordEx-L]

I didn't go into detail about single clutching but if you meant by blipping the throttle in neutral then I was telling the OP to do that while practicing so he has an idea of how pressure to apply onto the gas pedal.

Pretty much once you get it down packed, it becomes second nature and you don't even have to watch the tach. You just know.

[davidg4781]

What's the purpose of double clutching? I've never done it. Seems like too much hassle.

[Rattmann]

nissan gtr and infinity has automatic rev matching in the manual tranny!!

[gecko0]

what is the benefit of double clutching in modern vehicles? i understand it is to reduce overall wear on internal transmission components, but wasn't it more for older, less advanced transmissions? i'm asking because i've never had a problem with a transmission and i just use the single clutch downshifting method and rev-match. this includes driving a very old, fragile clutch ('92 accord w/ 177K miles on it...original clutch). if excess wear was going to happen, wouldn't it have mattered by then?

[07AccordEx-L]

Double clutching isn't necessary. I do better double clutching than single clutching. So it's Just a preference.

[Aviography]

Originally Posted by HustlinTSX

Downshifting will take a little practice to get good, but it will save on brakes and if done correctly, clutch wear should not be affected. I downshift before I brake (unless within 2k rpms of redline) and let the engine bring the car down in speed. After that, I'll use some brakes if I need to slow a little faster. Just remember, when you push in the clutch to downshift, you need to give a little throttle to keep your rpms up (doesn't take much when not in gear). Then let out of the clutch and it should feel smooth. If not, your rpms are too high or too low, just practice to get the feel down.

You may save a bit on brakes, but in order to blip the throttle to rev-match so you don't put addtional wear on the clutch, you are now burning more gas......

The main purpose for heel toe driving is racing, if you're not trying to shave off tenths on your laptime and driving around close to redline, it is almost useless on the street. It's a very high level technique though, you will not pick it up very easy and it will take practice. I'm not perfect, by any means.

This I agree and it is also used to not upset the balance of a car near the limit of adhesion under racing conditions, however I still do blip the throttle in single clutching when I downshift two gears (5th directly to 3rd) to blow by some slow moving traffic while merge into the flow of traffic from an on-ramp, otherwise the car would momentarily dive forward as engine braking from too low of the RPM comes into effect before engine RPM comes back up to match the road speed and transmission ratio.

If done correctly, you will be doing less wear on the clutch than not blipping.

The keyword here is "if", I know someone who could clearly operate a standard transmission car, in fact he bought a brand new Acura Legend sedan with a V6 5-speed manual transmission back in the 90's, he insisted it was good for the clutch to be used to slow the car down since:

a. It "neturalizes" the wear pattern on the clutch disc as the rotational force from accelerating is opposite to decelerating, it's hard to argue with him who is an accredited Professional Engineer with a MSc in nuclear phsyics and a wiz in computer science and electronics.

b. He can save the wear on brakes.

A little over two years later he finally agreed with me he was wrong when he needed the clutch replaced when it wore much quicker than can be expected for the mileage of the car, and that brake pads/rotors are infinitely easier and less expensive to replace than the clutch, especially on a FWD!

FWIW I "learned" about double clutching from reading a high-performance driving paperback book in the early years of my high-school days, I read that book several times over and "practiced" in my head countless times even though we didn't have a manual transmission car at the time, in fact it wasn't until several years later before we got a manual transmission car, my dad was amazed I was able to drive it after less than 10 minutes of practice from never driven a manual transmission car ever prior to that day.