The 2013 Accord vs. The Competition

[benjaminh]

So far it seems like the new Accord is doing quite well compared to its rivals in the early reviews. A few rivals might be able to top the 2013 Accord in one or two areas—for instance the Altima seems to have slightly higher hwy mpg (although that might change!)—but so far the overall combination of features, performance, quality, style, etc., have brought the new Accord a lot of praise. And I'm sure more is yet to come as all of the major car magazines get ready to release their comparison tests of all the major midsize sedans in the next few months.

I suggest we use this thread as a place to compare the 2013 Accord to the competition. Even though this is a place for Accord fans, we can be fans enough to meet the competition head on and talk about the pros and cons of each car.

[benjaminh]

Honda set out with the 2013 Accord to build the best overall midsize car at an affordable price. They didn't necessarily seek to win the sales crown, but is there even a small a chance that the 2013 Accord could steal the sales crown from the Camry, while also fighting off Altima, Sonata, Fusion, Optima, Passat, etc.? Seems unlikely, and I really don't know, but it's worth thinking about.

If anyone feels like try to guess a little bit what might happen in the epic sales race for midsize cars in the US in 2013. Almost every major maker has a recent offering and has expanded their factories to try to at least get ahead in this battle.

In my next post, I'm going to start to offer my own 2 cents worth of guesses....

[benjaminh]

This was of course the battle between the 2012 Accord and the 2012 Camry....

Toyota Camry 36,720
Honda Accord 34,848

Surprisingly close. Honda was blowing the old 2012s out the door with big incentives, but to a substantial degree so was Toyota.

But Honda has had to slow production down as they shifted to producing the all new 2013 Accord. I don't think things will be this close again for a few months, at least. I'm not sure when Honda will be up to full production, but probably not until the first months of 2013. At that point, the real race begins.

[benjaminh]

The Toyota factory in Georgetown, KY, and the Honda factory in Marysville, OH, are both huge. But the Toyota factory is a bit bigger.

Toyota can make up to 500,000 vehicles a year in KY, probably 450,000 of those Camrys.

But Honda can make up to 440,000 vehicles at Marysville, and at full tilt maybe 400,000 could be Accords. Honda has only set its sales goal for the new Accord at 350,000 a year. I think they'll make that pretty easily. But will they go beyond that to try to challenge the Camry? Looks like they simply don't have enough capacity, but maybe they can start making the Accord in their factory in Canada again....And maybe they can import from Japan, or make more Accords at another US factor—if the demand is there. In other words, it is possible for the Accord to pass the Camry in sales in 2013. It may be unlikely, but it is remotely possible.

Here's the official Honda site on the Marysville factory, as well as a quote:

http://ohio.honda.com/manufacturing/map.cfm

"....Originally building only Accords, the plant today is the sole global source of the Honda Accord Coupe, the Acura TL and the Acura RDX, while also building more than 90% of the Honda Accord Sedans sold in America. The plant is highly integrated with metal stamping, welding, painting, plastic injection molding and two final assembly lines under one roof.

Location: Marysville, Ohio
Started Production: November 1982
Plant Size: 3.6 million square feet
Capital Investment: $4 billion
Associates: 4,200

Models in Production:

Acura RDX
Accord Sedan
Accord Coupe
Acura TL Sedan

Annual Production Capacity: 440,000 vehicles"

[benjaminh]

My guesses for calendar year 2013:

Camry (retail and rental): c. 450k
Accord: c. 400k
Altima: c. 350k
Fusion: c. 300k
Sonata: c. 280k
Passat: c. 170k

[fw_fw]

Don't forget V6 Accords have been made at the Lincoln, AL plant recently and can pick up capacity there when needed.

[molson.david]

Originally Posted by benjaminh

My guesses for calendar year 2013:

Camry (retail and rental): c. 450k
Accord: c. 400k
Altima: c. 350k
Fusion: c. 300k
Sonata: c. 280k
Passat: c. 170k

your numbers are "bit" off:
here is 2012 Aug and year to date:
http://rumors.automobilemag.com/camr...ly-160781.html

and here is 2011 numbers:
http://wot.motortrend.com/toyota-cam...83-109685.html
doubt they gonna hit 400K in 2012...

The Toyota factory in Georgetown, KY, and the Honda factory in Marysville, OH, are both huge. But the Toyota factory is a bit bigger.

Toyota can make up to 500,000 vehicles a year in KY, probably 450,000 of those Camrys.

you forgot about Lafayette Indiana plant. they been up since 2006.
additional 120K a year as far as I know, but not all of them camry. it's mix with legacy, outback and tribeca.

[benjaminh]

Originally Posted by molson.david

your numbers are "bit" off:
here is 2012 Aug and year to date:
http://rumors.automobilemag.com/camr...ly-160781.html

and here is 2011 numbers:
http://wot.motortrend.com/toyota-cam...83-109685.html
doubt they gonna hit 400K in 2012...


you forgot about Lafayette Indiana plant. they been up since 2006.
additional 120K a year as far as I know, but not all of them camry. it's mix with legacy, outback and tribeca.

You're right, I did forget about the plant in IN that Toyota can use. Is that mainly a Subaru plant? Anyway, if the demand is there for the Camry they could probably make 500,000 a year, or even more, if they had to. Hard to see how anyone could catch that.

The numbers you are quoting from the past don't seem like very good predictors of calendar year 2013 to me.

First, 2011 was still more of a recession year. 2012 is a bit better, and 2013 will—knock on wood—probably be a bit better still.

But the biggest reason the Honda Accord fell in 2011 and early 2012 was that the company was devastated by the natural disasters in Japan and Thailand. Honda only recovered to close to full production I think c. 6 months ago. Toyota recovered a bit faster for some reason.

Anyway, look at the figures for August. The Accord almost caught the Camry.

[benjaminh]

Just last month, in August, Honda sold more of the old 2012 model Accord to actual retail customers than Toyota sold Camrys to retail customers. Toyota probably sold thousands to rental car companies and fleets, although I haven't seen any exact numbers.

So on that measure, of real people rather than fleets or rental car companies, I think Honda has just regained the #1 spot and will probably keep it once they get production of the 2013 up to full speed.

August 2012, Camry vs. Accord
Toyota Camry 36,720
Honda Accord 34,848

But because it's going to take a while to get production of the 2013 Accord up to full speed, I actually don't think the numbers are going to be this close again for a while—or maybe ever. If, and it's a big if, the Accord is going to start to catch the Camry it wouldn't be possible until probably sometime in the middle of calendar year 2013. Again, I don't think Honda's necessarily trying to be the best selling midsize car, just the best. But I do think they want to fight off Altima, Fusion, etc. and stay a strong #2.

[benjaminh]

Originally Posted by fw_fw

Don't forget V6 Accords have been made at the Lincoln, AL plant recently and can pick up capacity there when needed.

Really? Wow, I didn't know that. That's good news. That plant is huge, and so if demand is there and they can throw in 20k or so V-6s, that could really help.

[benjaminh]

Wow, look what happened back in 2007....

2007

Toyota Camry: 470,710
Honda Accord: 392,231


470k! That's amazing...

[fw_fw]

Originally Posted by benjaminh

Really? Wow, I didn't know that. That's good news. That plant is huge, and so if demand is there and they can throw in 20k or so V-6s, that could really help.

Here is a past article about it:

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...vic-and-accord

They've since stopped that and moved all Accord production back to Ohio, but they could do it again if the market warrants.

[FlipAccord13]

TC may outsell HA's BUT I would like to see the stats on the average lifespan between the two because thats what really counts IMHO

[molson.david]

Originally Posted by benjaminh

You're right, I did forget about the plant in IN that Toyota can use. Is that mainly a Subaru plant? Anyway, if the demand is there for the Camry they could probably make 500,000 a year, or even more, if they had to. Hard to see how anyone could catch that.

The numbers you are quoting from the past don't seem like very good predictors of calendar year 2013 to me.

First, 2011 was still more of a recession year. 2012 is a bit better, and 2013 will—knock on wood—probably be a bit better still.

But the biggest reason the Honda Accord fell in 2011 and early 2012 was that the company was devastated by the natural disasters in Japan and Thailand. Honda only recovered to close to full production I think c. 6 months ago. Toyota recovered a bit faster for some reason.

Anyway, look at the figures for August. The Accord almost caught the Camry.

yep, it is subaru plant but they been building camry since 2006 (gen6).
numbers from the past can give pretty good idea how market reacts to new models and what kind demand could be expected.
both companies were effected by tsunami and bad economy, but toyota recovered faster because it got more potential and more domestic US suppliers than honda.
jump from 300+K to 400K takes way more than best in class car and affordable price. +30%? hell no, ain't gonna happened, unless nicely loaded camry or accord gonna be discounted to 15-16K.
not saying I'm right, but doesn't look like accord gonna outsell camry neither in 2012 or 2013: historically, camry appeal to more buyers than accord and camry is cheaper.
there is one more reason why camry most likely will stay ahead of accord sales: vast majority of new camry buyers are mature 30-35+ and financially stable families, or family members, which usually go for more comfort and less sport.
accord buyer are bit younger and less financially stable, they prefer to buy cheaper used cars, which supports bit higher accord resale value, but hearts new car sales.

[benjaminh]

They call it the "Battle of the Best-Sellers." Cars tested were the new Chevy Malibu, Toyota Camry, Nissan Altima, Ford Fusion, Honda Accord, and the VW Passat. To my surprise they finished in that order, even though the Accord makes it from 0-60 about a second faster than the Passat and gets higher mpg. Why? They say the Passat is more fun to drive.

I think there are powerful reasons to pick the Accord over the Passat, including safety, quality, features, acceleration, mpg, etc., but Motor Trend says otherwise. Makes for interesting reading.

Motor Trend attacks the Camry as a substandard car in this class.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/?ti=v2&rec=1

6TH PLACE: Chevrolet Malibu LTZ
Tight with room -- not with fuel Talk about a comedown. What had previously been a sedan we'd regularly praised -- and GM's best-selling car -- finished dead last. How could the likable Malibu have fallen so far? Mostly this: a retrograde interior, a nearly useless rear seat, and the thirstiest powertrain in our group....

5TH PLACE: Toyota Camry XLE
Best-seller, but far from the best

Will Toyota care that its latest Camry finished fifth? Not likely. Over three decades Toyota's midsize sedan has won a huge, faithful, and mostly well-deserved following. The Camry has become the easy, go-to choice for buyers in search of a roomy, efficient, comfortable, reliable four-door that does it all. It's not surprising that the latest, ninth-generation U.S. version is, as we go to press, America's best-selling automobile.

The competition has crept up, though. And the Camry itself is -- dare we say it? -- showing signs of weakness. True, the basics are still there: a genuinely huge and inviting rear seat, impressive real-world fuel efficiency (we observed 26.1 mpg), a full complement of conveniences, and aggressive pricing ($25,570 base for the topline XLE). So why aren't we in love?

Ask Febbo: "This car is just so cynical. Horribly executed, and not a drop of passion anywhere. Interior looks like it was designed by the accounting department. Monochrome display for the HVAC system could have been developed in the '70s. The knobs are cheap, the buttons are cheap, everything is built to the lowest price."

Febbo isn't alone. Writes Seabaugh: "Did Toyota even try? Seems like they just phoned it in. Cabin has way too many hard plastics, a shoddy infotainment system, a dash so shiny it reflects into the windshield in direct sunlight. This is the McDonald's of cars: billions and billions served. But that doesn't mean it's good." The Camry rides softly but not particularly well....