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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Not only does the Hybrid have a "transmission" that uses Honda's ATF DW-1, it has typical drain and fill points, AND a dip stick!

47,500 miles the MM will tell you to change it, 15,000 for severe duty. OR every 3 years.
 

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Not only does the Hybrid have a "transmission" that uses Honda's ATF DW-1, it has typical drain and fill points, AND a dip stick!

47,500 miles the MM will tell you to change it, 15,000 for severe duty. OR every 3 years.
The way you worded it, you imply that the Honda Accord Hybrid uses more than one type of transmission, and that one of them uses DW-1. Or did you mean to say, "The 10th Gen Accord Hybrid has a transmission, and that transmission requires DW-1."?

The Maintenance Minder will NOT tell you to change the DW-1 fluid at 47,500 miles. My reading comprehension of the the manual- which you linked to, suggests that "If you drive in a severe climate, to change it at 47,500 miles", implying that the Maintenance Minder will NOT suggest you change it at 47,500 miles.

Furthermore, the maintenance minder will NOT tell you to change the DW-1 at 15,000 miles or at 3 years.

Lastly, I don't know where you came up with changing the DW-1 at 15,000 miles for "severe duty". The manual you linked to states that the 15,000 mile interval you alluded to is for the engine air cleaner, and the dust/pollen "cabin air" cleaner.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
The way you worded it, you imply that the Honda Accord Hybrid uses more than one type of transmission, and that one of them uses DW-1. Or did you mean to say, "The 10th Gen Accord Hybrid has a transmission, and that transmission requires DW-1."?

The Maintenance Minder will NOT tell you to change the DW-1 fluid at 47,500 miles. My reading comprehension of the the manual- which you linked to, suggests that "If you drive in a severe climate, to change it at 47,500 miles", implying that the Maintenance Minder will NOT suggest you change it at 47,500 miles.

Furthermore, the maintenance minder will NOT tell you to change the DW-1 at 15,000 miles or at 3 years.

Lastly, I don't know where you came up with changing the DW-1 at 15,000 miles for "severe duty". The manual you linked to states that the 15,000 mile interval you alluded to is for the engine air cleaner, and the dust/pollen "cabin air" cleaner.
I am posting within the 10th Gen Accord Hybrid forum, yes?

"Code 3" will light up at 47,500 miles. It will not light up before then.

I will remove the 15k statement for severe use on this model, you are correct on that.
 

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I am posting within the 10th Gen Accord Hybrid forum, yes?
Yes. And I stand by my statement that you are deliberately misleading people. You are implying that "the hybrid" also uses a transmission that does not require DW-1. I worded it clearly so that others would not be confused. I also asked you to clarify that this is specifically for the 10th Gen Accord. Words matter. People coming here from search engines will see the post- not the "Welcome to Drive Accord 10th Gen sub-forum for Hybrids". Does the 9th Gen Hybrid use DW-1? What about the 7th Gen?

"Code 3" will light up at 47,500 miles. It will not light up before then.
What proof do you have that the "Code 3" will alert the driver at exactly 47,500 miles? Once again, my reading comprehension of the manual page you linked to was that the Maintenance Minder system will alert you to change the DW-1 at some point in the future, but if you drive in mountainous or otherwise severe conditions, you should change it at 47,500 miles. And again, the Maintenance Minder will NOT alert you to this 47,500 mile change.

Changing the ATF soon under severe conditions OR 3 years, is up to the owner. Just like oil changes at per the MM or 1 year. Same thing.
Again, I ask you to clarify what you stated in your first post. You are posting false information. Where do you come up with changing the "ATF soon"? What is "soon"? The manual is pretty clear on mileage.

I will remove the 15k statement for severe use on this model, you are correct on that.
Thank you for removing "...the 15K statement for severe use on this model...", but it would be better to clarify that the "severe use" ATF interval is 47,500 miles. And that the 15,000 mile interval still applies for engine and cabin air filters under severe use.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I will wait to see if anyone else is as confused as you Rick. Thanks for your extreme concerns.

You know Rick, you caught two errors I made, which were corrected long before your 2nd lengthy reply of demands. Good/Bad/Indifferent....it was fixed/removed.

But the way you go about things and word things yourself, is anything but good for the forum.
 

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Thank you for correcting your errors.

^I think words matter. You made plenty of gross errors here in this thread- and I immediately questioned them. You come back and corrected.

Part Of A Team!

 

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So technically it has a transmission, in that it has a way to directly transmit power from the engine to the wheels. But the common understanding of what a transmission is includes some means of varying the ratio between the engine speed and wheel speed, and in that sense, it does not have a transmission.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
So technically it has a transmission, in that it has a way to directly transmit power from the engine to the wheels. But the common understanding of what a transmission is includes some means of varying the ratio between the engine speed and wheel speed, and in that sense, it does not have a transmission.
This is the exact misconception that is all over the internet and I'm puzzled by it, because its absolutely wrong.

The "eCVT" does in fact, vary the ratio between the gas engine speed and wheel speed.

Now, the confusion may be the "lock up" clutch, acting exactly like a torque converter lock up clutch does, kicking in only during very light throttle cruise speeds. The "lock up" in the Hybrid is nearly undetectable.

It's also been presented in some reports that the GAS engine provides all power at highway speeds and the electric motors are not in use. Incorrect.

With constant light power demand and cruising speeds of 60-75mph, I find EV mode (all electric) turning on whenever there is battery power available.

Modes (and GAS engine RPM) vary depending on power demand, regardless of wheel speed, and the eCVT "transmission" is in the middle of it all. Literally. Physically.
 

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This is the exact misconception that is all over the internet and I'm puzzled by it, because its absolutely wrong.

The "eCVT" does in fact, vary the ratio between the gas engine speed and wheel speed.

Now, the confusion may be the "lock up" clutch, acting exactly like a torque converter lock up clutch does, kicking in only during very light throttle cruise speeds. The "lock up" in the Hybrid is nearly undetectable.

It's also been presented in some reports that the GAS engine provides all power at highway speeds and the electric motors are not in use. Incorrect.

With constant light power demand and cruising speeds of 60-75mph, I find EV mode (all electric) turning on whenever there is battery power available.

Modes (and GAS engine RPM) vary depending on power demand, regardless of wheel speed, and the eCVT "transmission" is in the middle of it all. Literally. Physically.
I agree that the functioning of the "eCVT" in our Accord Hybrids (as Honda refers to it) is confusing, and not clearly described, even in Honda's own marketing materials.

But my understanding of it (perhaps not correct) is different from part of what you state above. Or maybe I am interpreting what you said a bit differently than what you meant.

You say that the eCVT does in fact, vary the ratio between the gas engine speed and the wheel speed. I would agree that when the lock-up clutch is NOT engaged, and the gas engine is only being used to generate electrical energy (via the second electric motor/generator), then, yes the ratio of gas engine speed to wheel speed does vary (since the gas engine isn't even connected to the wheels). But when the lock-up clutch IS engaged, the gas engine to wheel speed ratio is one fixed ratio. At least that is my understanding.

Maybe this is a matter of semantics. In my mind, it is clearer to think of the "transmission" (at least the portion between the gas engine and the wheels) to be either locked-up at its one "speed" (ratio), or disengaged completely (as in neutral). The fact that the gas engine is doing its own thing (varying speed, etc.) when it is simply driving the generator to provide electrical energy, is not really "variable ratio" operation, even if, strictly speaking, the ratio of engine speed to wheel speed IS varying....

(There is also a gear ratio between the main traction electric motor, and the drive wheels, of course).
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I agree that the functioning of the "eCVT" in our Accord Hybrids (as Honda refers to it) is confusing, and not clearly described, even in Honda's own marketing materials.

But my understanding of it (perhaps not correct) is different from part of what you state above. Or maybe I am interpreting what you said a bit differently than what you meant.

You say that the eCVT does in fact, vary the ratio between the gas engine speed and the wheel speed. I would agree that when the lock-up clutch is NOT engaged, and the gas engine is only being used to generate electrical energy (via the second electric motor/generator), then, yes the ratio of gas engine speed to wheel speed does vary (since the gas engine isn't even connected to the wheels). But when the lock-up clutch IS engaged, the gas engine to wheel speed ratio is one fixed ratio. At least that is my understanding.

Maybe this is a matter of semantics. In my mind, it is clearer to think of the "transmission" (at least the portion between the gas engine and the wheels) to be either locked-up at its one "speed" (ratio), or disengaged completely (as in neutral). The fact that the gas engine is doing its own thing (varying speed, etc.) when it is simply driving the generator to provide electrical energy, is not really "variable ratio" operation, even if, strictly speaking, the ratio of engine speed to wheel speed IS varying....

(There is also a gear ratio between the main traction electric motor, and the drive wheels, of course).
More confustion comes down to what people refer to as a transmission. This basic definition is what I go by, which is what is taught in high school and college.

I will also say that the operation of the eCVT operation itself, has yet to be explained well. For example, when power is COMBINED for full power and the engine is screaming at 6200 RPM with battery charge quickly dropping? It's not super clear how it all goes down. How does the engine hit max RPM and still transmit power? Thru what mechanism?

Lock up is very easy to understand. And yes when engaged there is only one fixed gear ratio, but this is a very sensitive lock up.

There's a very finite load value of which "lock up" remains engaged and we seemingly run on gas only. (Even though battery charge levels still vary.) This is why I feel direct gas engine drive lock up is not what reports are making it out to be.

For example, very little or no load, you get often get EV mode. (I've tested up to 85mph.) At 65mph the gas engine runs around 2500RPM and with a little throttle input the gas engine RPM's quickly jump up, and its then clear "lock up" is not engaged. With an egg shell under your right foot, you can accelerate at cruise speeds very slowly without a jump in gas engine RPM, but this takes a lot of effort, and there's no point trying to control this.

I monitor RPM and load via OBD Fusion. It is very interesting to watch and would definitly help owners understand what's happening with the gas motor, if interested. (Never mind the throttle position value, 11.8 is as low as it goes.) The load value gives a very good perspective and correlates well with mode changes. Around 8-12 I can visually see RPM's correlate with wheel speed. Below that it goes into EV mode and above gas engine RPM's instantly jump by a few hundred to thousands depending on power demand.
 

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This is the exact misconception that is all over the internet and I'm puzzled by it, because its absolutely wrong.

The "eCVT" does in fact, vary the ratio between the gas engine speed and wheel speed.
The transmission you pictured in your first post actually prevents the engine speed from varying in relation to wheel speed.

Yes, when the clutch pack unlocks, the gas engine speed can be varied to generate more or less electricity depending on what the electric motor needs to maintain a given wheel speed, but no one would call that a transmission. Take the motor/generator unit around to 100 transmission repair shops and ask "what's this?" and I bet none of them will say "a transmission".
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Take the motor/generator unit around to 100 transmission repair shops and ask "what's this?" and I bet none of them will say "a transmission".

Taking a Hybrid to a transmission repair shop is like taking a Tesla to a general repair garage. That will not happen anytime soon, and by the time it does, many mechanics will know exactly what their looking at.

Honda calls it a transmission, so there's really no debate here.

But I am curious to those fighting this weird debate, what do YOU call it, if not a transmission???
 

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I will wait to see if anyone else is as confused as you Rick. Thanks for your extreme concerns.
I think many of us are confused in this thread. Read on!

So technically it has a transmission, in that it has a way to directly transmit power from the engine to the wheels. But the common understanding of what a transmission is includes some means of varying the ratio between the engine speed and wheel speed, and in that sense, it does not have a transmission.
This is the exact misconception that is all over the internet and I'm puzzled by it, because its absolutely wrong.....

....Now, the confusion may be the "lock up" clutch....
No, I think the confusion stems from poorly-worded Honda press releases, poorly-worded forum posts, conflicting car magazine articles, and a lack of cited sources.

Here is one such article from Car and Driver magazine, stating that the 2018 Accord Hybrid does NOT have a transmission: "...despite the fact that this Honda doesn’t have a transmission at all (it employs direct-drive gearing)."
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-honda-accord-hybrid-first-drive-review

I agree that the functioning of the "eCVT" in our Accord Hybrids (as Honda refers to it) is confusing, and not clearly described, even in Honda's own marketing materials.

But my understanding of it (perhaps not correct) is different from part of what you state above. Or maybe I am interpreting what you said a bit differently than what you meant.
Agreed- in Honda's own marketing materials- within the same page(!), it contradicts itself:
1) "The Accord Hybrid features an updated two-motor hybrid system, which uses one motor to accelerate from a dead stop and a second to start the engine. Combining powerful electric motors with an efficient 2.0L VTEC® engine,..."

2) "Electronically Continuously Variable Transmission (E-CVT) with Sport Mode"

https://automobiles.honda.com/tools/build-and-price-result?modelid=CV3F1JEXW&modelseries=accord-sedan&modelyear=2018&extcolorcode=NH-797M#


More confustion comes down to what people refer to as a transmission. This basic definition is what I go by, which is what is taught in high school and college.
High school and college? The big problem here is that your wikipedia definition sows CONFUSION, It uses the word "transmission" in its definition of....transmission! That is a big no-no. This is called a "circular definition".

The transmission you pictured in your first post actually prevents the engine speed from varying in relation to wheel speed.

Take the motor/generator unit around to 100 transmission repair shops and ask "what's this?" and I bet none of them will say "a transmission".
Agreed.

Taking a Hybrid to a transmission repair shop is like taking a Tesla to a general repair garage. That will not happen anytime soon, and by the time it does, many mechanics will know exactly what their looking at.
I have seen a few Teslas at general repair facilities. One was getting new brake pads bought at Autozone. Depends on what the owner thinks THEY'RE looking at.


Honda calls it a transmission, so there's really no debate here.
Depends on which Honda literature you are reviewing. Honda also refers to it as a "two-motor system"- not a transmission. Discuss...
 

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Here’s the best video you’ll see on the subject:

That link doesn't work for me, but this does:


...and you're right, that is a good video on the subject. From Engineering Explained, title "This Honda Has No Transmission".

But I am curious to those fighting this weird debate, what do YOU call it, if not a transmission???
There's no single word one could use that would make a layman understand how the engine's power gets to the wheels in this car.
 

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Not only does the Hybrid have a "transmission" that uses Honda's ATF DW-1, it has typical drain and fill points, AND a dip stick!
The car also has a reservoir for, and the user's manual describes how to add, window washer fluid. Yet as far as I know, there is no little man with a squeegee (a "window washer") under the hood. Or even a mechanical device exclusively dedicated to, and labeled for, the automatic execution of that task. The windshield wipers will accomplish the task on the windshield, after fluid has been sprayed on them, yet the car has no "window washer."

Merriam-Webster defines "pedantic" as emphasizing minutiae in the presentation or use of knowledge. This thread clearly is a exercise in pedantry, so let me examine it at that level. I will admit that I have no formal education in this area, so be patient if I make a few mistakes.

  1. The most technical definition of a car's transmission is the set of components that transmits energy from its source to its ultimate destination. By this definition, the gas tank and fuel pump are part of the transmission process. Yet I know of nobody who would include them under the name "transmission."
  2. A more useful definition is the components that mechanically transmit rotational energy from the source to the wheels. Even a Tesla has a CV drive axle that accomplishes this task, yet I know of nobody who would call it a transmission either.
  3. In the world of auto mechanics, I believe that the components that fit the technical definition are called, collectively, the "drive train" or "transmission system." The name "transmission," as a mechanical part, is reserved for the component of the drive train that mechanically reduces the rotation rate of an ICE to the approximate rate of the wheels.
  4. Other components - such as the differential, which is never called a "transmission" even if it uses "transmission fluid" for lubrication - generally either split the transmission path, or change the direction of the axis of rotation.
  5. The reason for this seemingly sloppy use of terminology, is that until very recently in automotive history, only the reduction component of the drive train varied significantly. So the different kinds of "transmissions"="drive trains" were labeled by the type of the "reduction device"="transmission" that they always contained.
  6. Honda's current hybrid drives do not utilize a transmission as I defined it here. Or as how your mechanic would. If the ICE is driving the wheels mechanically, it does so at a constant gear ratio of 2.75.Engineering Explained
  7. It does use transmission fluid for other traditional parts of the drive train. That does not make those parts what is commonly called a "transmission."
  8. The ICE can drive the generator, which then drives the motor, which drives the car. The ratio of ICE rotation to wheel rotation is not fixed. But this is not a mechanical process, so it does not count as a "transmission" any more than the fuel pump does.
  9. Most descriptions of an ICE car's power train (engine/motor+drive train) want to include a description of the transmission, since with two rare exceptions, all other ICE cars have one. So when a traditional transmission type is needed, Honda calls it an eCVT, which is closest to what it does. The decision to lock up the clutch is controlled electronically.
  10. Other hybrid systems, such as Toyota's, do transmit the ICE's rotation to the wheels mechanically. The various rates in the planetary gear system are also controlled electronically, so it is also called an eCVT. There is no similarity between Totota's, and Honda's, hybrid eCVTs.
 

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What a (EXPLOSIVE, PAINFUL, AND UNCONTROLLABLE BOUTS OF DIARRHEA WHICH WILL LEAD TO DEHYDRATION, HOSPITALIZATION, ORGAN FAILURE, REPEATED RESUSCITATION, EVENTUAL DEATH, LAWSUITS, ACCUSATIONS, ALLEGATIONS, ACCEPTANCE, LEGAL SETTLEMENTS, AND A YOUTUBE TRIBUTE VIDEO WITH 6 VIEWS) show.

I stand firm with the facts.

1) Honda labels the eCVT as a transmission
2) It is assembly of components that transmits power from the engine and electric motors, to the wheels, and allows the gas engine speed to vary.


I see many internet video experts are here, who are not actual Hybrid owners.

Well, nearly all modes are well defined by those videos and explanations and I'm not debating most of them (except for their use of "no transmission), but there is one thing missing from all of them. FULL (combined) POWER.


Explain how the gas engine can run at full throttle (constant 6200rpm) and combine its power with the electric motor when there's only two fixed gear modes (EV and Direct) via only one lock up clutch between them.

Gas engine makes 143hp and 129 lb-ft of torque
Electric motor makes 181hp and 232 lb-ft of torque

Combined they put out only 212hp and torque equates to the electric motors peak of 232 lb-ft.

The high capacity lock up clutch cannot be engaged when the engine is screaming at 6200 rpm for obvious reasons, and it is not designed to slip like a torque converter. And if they were directly linked, the electric motor 181hp+ gas 143hp = 324hp. We know that clearly is NOT happening!

Sure sounds like a "eCVT transmission" is involved and there is something more to this TRANSMISSION than internet videos.
 

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I stand firm with the facts.

1) Honda labels the eCVT as a transmission
2) It is assembly of components that transmits power from the engine and electric motors, to the wheels, and allows the gas engine speed to vary.
You refuse to look at what the facts actually mean. Saying some component - like the differential - uses transmission fluid is not calling it a "transmission." The user's manual calls the system that shifts between P, N, R, and D a "transmission" because that is what most people are used to calling it. Not because it actually is one by the definition you insist on. They do call the overall drive train a "transmission system" several times, usually in terms of error messages, but that is not the same as saying it is a "transmission."

So, where do you think Honda actually says the car has a component that is what is traditionally called a "transmission" in automotive parlance?

Look at what your Wikipedia quote said: "Often the term transmission refers simply to the gearbox that uses gears and gear trains to provide speed and torque conversions from a rotating power source to another device." (Emphasis added.) This means changing one speed or torque to another. Converting power to electricity does not qualify, even if it is later converted back to torque.

The HAH has no such device.

I see many internet video experts are here, who are not actual Hybrid owners.
No, they are engineers who have examined the HAH, and understand it better than you or I.

Explain how the gas engine can run at full throttle (constant 6200rpm) and combine its power with the electric motor when there's only two fixed gear modes (EV and Direct) via only one lock up clutch between them.
First, "full throttle" is not a specific rpm rate, or a power rate; let alone a constant rate for either. It is actually just an input to or from the HAH's computer. An ICE can run at its top rpm rate a zero throttle (often called engine braking). It can be at full throttle at lower rpms.

But:

The ICE is connected directly to the small motor-generator (hereafter referred to as "generator"). The wheels are connected directly to the large motor-generator (hereafter referred to as "motor"). The two are connected only when the clutch is locked.

When the ICE is running at X rpm, the generator is turning at k*X rpm. I don't know what k is, but it is a constant. Whether or not it generates electricity depends on what load the computer puts on its output.

If the lock-up clutch is engaged, the wheels must be running at X/2.75 rpm. BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRANSMISSION in the traditional automotive sense of the word. The motor is also running at a proportional rate (again, I don't know the proportion).

If the throttle is set so that excess power is being generated by the ICE, the computer controls the load on the generator so that it sends power to the battery. If the ICE is not generating enough power for the throttle level, the computer sends power from the battery to the motor. But the horsepower numbers don't add the way you are trying.

If you are just coasting on a flat or downhill grade, and you have sufficient battery power, there is no reason the ICE can't disengage and let the motor keep your coast going.

And it is a clutch, not a torque converter. My 2001 5-speed manual could "slip into" any gear at any speed (well, any speed in its in its range), as long as I could match the speeds reasonable well first. Why do you think the hybrid's computer can't do that?

The "eCVT" does in fact, vary the ratio between the gas engine speed and wheel speed.
Wjen in serial-hybrid mode only. AS YOUR WIKIPEDIA QUOTE SAID, the usual meaning of the term "transmission" refers to a mechanical transmitter of power. This does not apply to the serial-hybrid mode.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
What a (EXPLOSIVE, PAINFUL, AND UNCONTROLLABLE BOUTS OF DIARRHEA WHICH WILL LEAD TO DEHYDRATION, HOSPITALIZATION, ORGAN FAILURE, REPEATED RESUSCITATION, EVENTUAL DEATH, LAWSUITS, ACCUSATIONS, ALLEGATIONS, ACCEPTANCE, LEGAL SETTLEMENTS, AND A YOUTUBE TRIBUTE VIDEO WITH 6 VIEWS) show.


I cannot believe you are a forum moderator Rick, getting away with the responses on the edge and now editing of ones post.

And I'm really tired of hearing long drawn out responses by non-owners who likely never even drove a late gen Honda Hybrid.

Two motors and a eCVT (electronic Continuously Variable TRANSMISSION). Honda could not make this more clear.
 
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