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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm considering replacing my '17 V6 Touring even though the car market is crazy right now. I've considered a 2.0t Touring, a Hybrid Touring and most recently an EX-L Hybrid. I'm looking at a long-term plan here. A couple of factors are influencing this choice at present time:

1) Just had to have the trans replaced at a cost of over $ 2k (Honda split the costs with me) and it comes with a 3yr/36k warranty, after which I assume the risk of the remanufactured trans having issues and it would be very costly to replace/repair a second time. Not sure I'm up for that again.
2) The car has 80k miles on it and is is really, really nice condition. By the time that new car prices cool off, I'll likely have over 100k miles (18k-20k.year) and I'll be looking at a loss of ~$1k and or a harder sale/trade. Added to that, the car will be due for the timing belt job at an approximate cost of $11-$1500. So I'm looking at losing ~$2500 in the next 12-18 months. I received a $21,500 offer from Vroom last week. This car will never be worth appreciable more than it is right now.
3) Uncertainty of future gas prices. I love my V6 and it's power, but driving like I want to drive has netted me an approximate lifetime fuel mileage average of around 26MPG. I get around 20-30 on the highway, but can coax it to 33-34 if I'm mindful of my speed.

I do drive a lot of highway miles where the Hybrid is less of a benefit, but if I maintain 70-72 average speed, I should be able to pull down 38+ MPG (EX-L) most of the time, if not better. I assume the touring with it's 41 MPG Hwy and 19" wheels would be slightly less. Everywhere else would net me significantly higher than my V6 and the 2.0T. Going from a 2.0 Touring to an EX-L Hybrid (top and bottom of my current options) is a $4,400 savings in vehicle cost alone. Add in the fuel savings over 5 years and the gap widens to about $8400! The real figure would likely be higher as I calculated based on $3.25/gal. That would go a long way in some solid investments or paying down my mortgage!

I've driven the 2.0 Touring and the Hybrid Touring and while they are different cars, the core of the vehicle experience is very similar. My heart wants the sweet power of the Turbo and my brain says the Hybrid Touring or EX-L would be the wisest financial choice. I would have to alter my driving style with the Hybrid as I find the drone of the ICE under heavy acceleration undesirable. I had an 2.4l/CVT EX-L coupe before the Touring so I know how to drive for efficiency.My only real concern is the eventual cost or replacing the Hybrid battery pack. I'm trying to determine the approximate cost of this job and when one can expect the charge capacity to drop enough to warrant replacement. That could be a significant factor if it is required during my ownership of the car. Besides the potential battery costs, the hybrid should be a fair bit cheaper to maintain and be theoretically more reliable due to no complicated transmission, port injection vs direct injection, N/A vs Turbo, fewer parts to fail vs the ICE, etc.

As far as features of the Touring trims on both cars, I don't really need the HUD, 19" wheels (but they are pretty!), heated rear seats, navi, or adaptive dampers. These things are nice, but not necessarily required. As for ride quality, the 10th Gen Accord rides better than my 9th Gen and is quieter. Ive often wished for a smoother ride and the EX-L with it's 17" heels should be much smoother and maybe a hair quieter than the bling 19-inchers. I'd be making my choice and keep the new car for at least 5 years/120k miles, or more. I'd like to get it paid off ASAP and maybe add a fun car (Miata, Si, etc) or a cheap truck to my stable in the no too distant futures doing this with as much cash savings as possible is appealing. I do like my performance and spirited driving, too though.

Call it a dilemma, call it careful consideration or call it crazy. I'm just trying to parse out all the options, details and pros/cons of this decision. Any input, be in supportive or critical, is welcome. I'm interested to see any insights that I may have not considered, or over-considered.
 
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First thing first, I agree with your trade in plan to get rid of a problematic transmission if that already bothered you.

I also agree with your tough decision between 2.0T and hybrid drivetrain. They are indeed very tough to choose since both are fantastic. The 2.0T with 10AT smoked a lot hot models in drag race (even BMW 330i if I remember); the hybrid excels in smooth linear EV driving feel that any transmission falls behind, and it isn’t slow tbh.

My lab mate has a 2.0T EX-L, and mine is hybrid EX-L. We once drove each other’s car back to back. I was impressed by the thrust, and he was impressed by the smoothness.

Still, I would take the hybrid if given another chance. In real world conditions (<8 miles mixed commute trip) he always doubles the fuel consumption than me, although his tires are 225 but mine was upgraded to 235. When I want thrust, sport mode does ~70% of the 2.0T and still much better mpg.

Highway mpg of hybrid is still better than 2.0T. You may need to play with uphill/downhill controls, because let acc drive long uphill can kill mpg… computer would disengage the clutch and rev up to deliver uphill power, very inefficient — you have to take over and maintain below a line so that clutch is engaged.

Totally understand your negative feeling of revving up this 2.0 NA motor. It just sounds terrible. I’d say a 2010 TSX with 2.4NA revs up more pleasantly.

Depending on which state you are registered, you may have 15 years 150k miles coverage on the HV battery and other hybrid components. This is the least concern you shall have.

Besides, the hybrid ATF fluid is easy
to DIY change, so you can always go preventive and do it more frequently than suggested intervals (mine replaced at 43k; still no ATF code now at 46k; future plan will be every 30k).
 

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As someone who just bought a 2022 EX-L Hybrid, I’m pleased with it. My driving style is fairly boring - set the cruise to the speed limit and listen to podcasts or audiobooks.

Out of curiosity, why did your 5 year old Accord need a new transmission after just 5 years / 80k miles?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Out of curiosity, why did your 5 year old Accord need a new transmission after just 5 years / 80k miles?
I started noticing vibrations/judder-type sensations during the 2-3 shift. The dealer performed a torque converter rubber TSB which involved 3x ATF drain/fill and software updates. The improved the judder but didn't eliminate it. After a few months, the trans started jerking at slow speeds (parking lots, especially) on occasion. While on my way home from a 700 mile road trip, I noticed the trans wasn't shifting into high gear. After arriving home, I restarted the car and it seemed normal until I drove down the street and got a pronounced jerk followed by emissions and trans system problem error codes. The dealer diagnosed it a needing a transmission as they couldn't determine the issue without tearing into the trans, which they don't do. Most other transmission shops near me also do not work on the 6AT, only replace with a used/reman unit for around $4k. The only shop that would even work on the 6AT warned me that getting parts would be an issue. I requested the dealer ask Honda for some good faith assistance based on the history on the car, my loyalty to Honda and past service at this dealer. Their offer was so good that I just had them replace it instead of chasing it any more.
 

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Hybrid or 2.0t is ultimately a matter of personal choice. Both are very good vehicles- but if you are really interested in the hybrid because of the fuel efficiency, it makes little sense to get the Touring because those wheels do result in a heavy MPG penalty.

You really have an interesting dilemma here- mainly because you can get the hybrid in EXL form, but you can't get the 2.0t motor in EXL anymore... the only way to get the 2.0t motor these days is in the 2.0t Sport or 2.0t Touring trim level.

The 2.0t Sport isn't a bad trim level- it comes with a lot of standard equipment and you can add a few things that I think are needed in a car with a $34,000 MSRP... mainly the auto-dimming rearview mirror accessory. It gives you most of the features of the EXL trim level minus leather and memory seating and the not-so-premium "premium audio".

With that said- the 2.0t Touring is about $4000 more than the 2.0t Sport- and will give you really nice leather, vented seats, memory seats, a better (but still not great) audio system, navigation, the HUD, side mirrors with turn signal indicators, parking sensors with low-speed braking control, adaptive dampers, the ability to start your car and monitor it with your smartphone (free for 3 months, then requires subscription), rain-sensing wipers, a passenger side automatic tilt-down mirror, the heated rear seats that you mentioned, and a few other things. I had a 2019 2.0t Sport for about a year before I upgraded to a 2021 2.0t Touring. I think it's worth the cost of upgrade.

Normally I would think that spending nearly $40,000 on an Accord would be insane- but that's just the reality of the current market. I think that if you are okay with the lousy mileage (compared to the hybrid), the 2.0t Accord is a very, very nice car. If you are coming from an Accord with the V6, you might miss the power if you go with the hybrid option.

I will tell you that my 2.0t Touring does get 32-36mpg on the highway. Around town is where the 2.0t really gets lousy mileage. About 90% of my driving is in the city with lots of stoplights and speeds of 35 mph or less- and my 2.0t Touring gets about 24mpg on average. When I take it out on the highway it gets much better mileage.

I'm biased against the hybrid though. My wife and I owned a Camry Hybrid for nearly 15 years and loved the car. If you really want a hybrid- I think that the Camry is the way to go.... but if you want power- the Accord's optional 2.0t motor and super smooth 10-speed automatic is hard to fault. The Camry's V6 might be a smoother engine- but I think that the transmission that Toyota currently puts into the non-hybrid Camry isn't the best. I'm sure that It's reliable- but it's not smooth at all. The Camry hybrid's CVT is pretty good.
 
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I "downgraded" from a 2020 2.0 Touring Turbo to a 2021 Touring Hybrid. Nearly 40 mpg in the city with the big wheels and my normal "spirited" driving. Took a long trip over Christmas and my ACC set 84 mph (more like 75 mph average speed) was 37 mpg. Forget the ACC and just sit in the boring right lane and the MPGS would be better.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I "downgraded" from a 2020 2.0 Touring Turbo to a 2021 Touring Hybrid. Nearly 40 mpg in the city with the big wheels and my normal "spirited" driving. Took a long trip over Christmas and my ACC set 84 mph (more like 75 mph average speed) was 37 mpg. Forget the ACC and just sit in the boring right lane and the MPGS would be better.
What made you make the switch? Gas mileage alone, or a combination of things?
 

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Does the hybrid have a spare tire? I know the CRV Hybrid does not. That's a deal breaker to me. You have this well thought out. I'd assign a weight to each pro and con and the answer will justify the trade offs. My guess is since you do a lot of highway and you'll miss the performance of the 2.0t I don't think a hybrid can overcome those factors. Winter MPG will suffer more in a hybrid. Maybe what you really need is an EV when they become more mainstream and the 2.0t will be your bridge.

For a little perspective, I switched from an Accord V6 to RAV4 hybrid because it was time to replace with something that was on the lot. In my mind the Accord chapter was closed and it would be remembered as one of the best cars I had. I planned on getting an AWD Camry or a Camry hybrid which in stripped form gets in the 50's with the lithium ion battery. Boy was I surprised with the RAV. All around in the summer I was getting 47 about 30 with the Accord. In the winter about 38 with the RAV with little drop off in the Accord. With the V6 using VCM during summer highway, the Accord will match or beat the RAV on the highway. The hybrid has 75% of the performance, lacks the effortless power and smoothness and it makes a lot of unconventional noises but the E-CVT is superior and makes for a very responsive driving experience. Everything is instant which makes it feel faster. There's plenty of passing power. In real world driving you can place the car wherever you want and when pulling off it runs on gas and battery so most folks don't end up tailgating. The only time it falls flat on its face is when you floor it from a stop and you get the dreaded drone but in real world driving how often am I really flooring it from a stop? I took it through the hills a couple of times to pick up my daughter from college and it was much better than I expected, never lacked power and going downhill the battery would fully recharge. The brake pads never touch until you come to the last few mph's of speed. There are times when it runs on pure battery for short stints and there are moments of smoothness. If Toyota had a refined 4 banger in there it would be a better experience. It feels much faster than my Passport which feels asleep with a slow reacting transmission and has poor reflexes. I'm thinking of dumping the Passport, tough to justify it with this RAV being a better fit. You have to put the Passport close to VTEC to get it to come to life. So what I'm saying is you get to use more of the operating envelope with the Hybrid instead of winding something out. I'll don't think I'll ever go back to an ICE only engine. The RAV takes somewhere between 11 and 12 gallons and can go anywhere from 500 to 600 miles. Filling up every 2 to 3 weeks is a welcome reality. That makes it easier to overlook it's shortcomings.

Good luck with your decision but now would be the time to trade the 17, even if the replacement is temporary.
 

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What made you make the switch? Gas mileage alone, or a combination of things?
Gas mileage? Yes. Too much power not being useful? Yes. Economics (trade-in value)? Yes.
 

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So many good points in this thread. Just like you OP, I also have a '17 Accord Touring and thinking about switching to a 10th gen hybrid Touring. Thanks to my dealer (not really, I've lost all confidence in them), I had the pleasure of driving a new Accord Hybrid Touring for 2.5 months as a loaner car.

I do pretty much 95% city driving and dang, the mpgs on that Hybrid was amazing compared to my v6 Touring. I quickly learned how to use the paddle shifters to slow down and barely touched my brakes all the time. There was many things I liked about the 10th gen compared to our 9.5 gen.

The seating position is better, the interior is ergonomically better, little things like the right side mirror going down in reverse is nice, full LED brake lights on the Touring trim which is waaaaaay brighter and superior to the crappy tiny brake lights we have on our 9.5 gen. The addition of the volume knob...my gosh, it was excellent. The HUD was very nice, although it did seem a little distracting in the beginning. Overall, the hybrid just feels tighter and better than the 9.5 gen. I steering wheel is definitely thicker and it feels great compared to ours (feels slightly heavier vs lighter) which I like since my old BMW 335d had a solid thick and heavy m-sport wheel.

Believe it or not, the hybrid did feel fast and very peppy when putting it in Sport mode. I was very surprised. It has no issue reaching 60 mph (or whatever you like) quickly. I read somewhere that the hybrid version is actually faster than the 1.5T CVT. Regarding the CVT (eCVT whatever), it always felt pretty responsive. Sure the drone can get weird when you gun it, I mean it sounded like a weed whacker, but for the most part you don't really notice. The hybrid just goes and it's smooth. Yea the v6 sounds great and all, but like you, I'm starting to notice my transmission is starting to shift rough. I had the dealer replace the trans fluid, and it seemed ok at first but it's starting to shift rough again and I only have 49k miles.

I got a quote at carmax for $25k for my v6 touring and I bought it for $30k new back in the day. Let me know what you get. Honestly I don't think you'll be disappointed in either (hybrid or 2.0T), but the mpgs on the hybrid is very impressive. One thing I really like aside from no timing belt is that the hybrid version isn't direct injected so no need to worry about carbon build up. I haven't read or seen any stories about CBU on the 2.0T, but it was a major problem on my 335d that I had to get my valves walnut blasted every two years. It was a pain the butt and expensive.

Sorry I didn't intend for this post to be so long. So far all the dealers in my area (Norcal) are charging ridiculous markups on the hybrids that it has made it difficult for me to pull the trigger as I refuse to pay anything above markup.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
...... So far all the dealers in my area (Norcal) are charging ridiculous markups on the hybrids that it has made it difficult for me to pull the trigger as I refuse to pay anything above markup.
I'm not sure how much the dealers in your area are marking up their vehicles but here in Nashville, they are adding around $3-4k between "market adjustment" and accessories. I'll likely just keep my '17 for a while if I can't get a deal that's near MSRP.
 

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I'm not sure how much the dealers in your area are marking up their vehicles but here in Nashville, they are adding around $3-4k between "market adjustment" and accessories. I'll likely just keep my '17 for a while if I can't get a deal that's near MSRP.
If it were me, id wait until the prices normalized, I couldnt overpay for a vehicle right now then have the market stabalize in 2023 once the chip shortage and demand goes back to normal. If you buy now youll be in over your head unless you can find a good deal which isnt really happening right now. I mean at least with the Autotrans in your 2017 being replaced, you should be good for a year or 2.

What you say your '17 V6 was doing....I noticed on my test drive of one back in 2018 (not the shuddering but the wierd clunking at low speed) This is the reason I went with a 8th gen V6 over a 9th gen Touring.
Not only was the price quite a bit cheaper for an 8th gen but I didnt notice any trans oddities on the 8th gen like on the test drive of the 17 Touring V6 I did. My 2007 I4 was having its own trans issues at 185,000mi and I didnt want to trade one trans problem for another.

All cars have problems. Pick your poison.
You know with all this tech on the newer hondas something on them will be problematic, just wait a few years and youll see....
But id much rather replace a sensor or some dumb saftey system over a 4k Auto Trans. ;)
 

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Does the hybrid have a spare tire? I know the CRV Hybrid does not. That's a deal breaker to me.
The 2018+ Accord Hybrid does not come with a spare tire. (I'm not sure if earlier ones do). Several hybrid owners have bought the various parts necessary to put a spare tire in the trunk floor- it will fit just fine but the parts are a bit pricey.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The more I sit and ponder this decision the more I am leaning toward either the Touring or EX-L Hybrid over the 2.0t. The Hybrid gives me all the features from the 2.0 Touring that I really need, it's less expensive up front and even at 70-75 MPH average on the interstate, significantly better MPG than the turbo. Add that to the perceived lower cost of ownership and maintenance and the only thing I think I give up on the Hybrids is the performance and power of the turbo. I'm a little hung up on giving up the power of the V6/2.0t and not sure if the droning of the Hybrid's ICE would bug me enough to care. I love the idea of the smoother ride of the EX-L and the general smoothness of the Hybrid powertrain in most driving conditions. Still parsing this one out.
 

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I'm biased against the hybrid though.
I think it important to emphasize this point. RCarlL won't name anything specific that makes him feel the Camry is better. It's more general impressions that can't be argued with, simply because they are only general impressions. What I recall:
  1. That Toyota has been making hybrids longer than Honda.
    1. They haven't, really. Honda actually introduced hybrids in North America before Toyota did. But Toyota was a little earlier in Japan. Since all that happened in a different century, the few months between them is irrelevant in my opinion.
    2. Still, Toyota has used only one basic configuration. Honda has used mainly two (and a third with a different purpose). I'll give him that.
    3. But there is nothing in the iMMD configuration that isn't either part of the entire history, or is non-hybrid and so predates it. So there is nothing at all to be suspicious about based on "experience."
  2. That Honda hasn't proven their reliability.
    1. They have. The system is eight years old, with no systemic issues. There is a forum for the 2014-2015 version on this site, if you want to check it out. There were not a huge number sold (RCarlL's responce), but enough so that any problems should have emerged in eight years.
    2. Consumer Reports doesn't rate either higher.
    3. Repairpal rates the Accord at 4.5 out of 5. Camry gets 4.0. It's not clear how either hybrid fits into that rating.
    4. Kelly Blue Book rates the Accord Hybrid at 4.6, and the Camry Hybrid at 3.9. Heck, I have it up, so let's look at all of KBB's comparisons. Out of 5 points, Accord Hybrid comraed to Camry Hybrid:
      1. Value 4.1 to 3.8
      2. Quality 4.5 to 3.8
      3. Reliability 4.6 to 3.9
      4. Performance 4.3 to 4.0
      5. Comfort 4.1 to 3.9
      6. Styling - I think this is not their call (But Accord is higher.)
 

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I'm a little hung up on giving up the power of the V6/2.0t and not sure if the droning of the Hybrid's ICE would bug me enough to care.
I can't comment on how the power difference will affect you. I'll just point out that, even though it is less, if you drop the hybrid into sport mode it is quicker to engage than I suspect the 2.0T is.

As for the droning, you really need to test drive it up a steep hill. I won't say it isn't an issue, but the microphones on youtube videos do tend to exaggerate it. I've driven through Appalachia, and it hasn't bothered me there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I can't comment on how the power difference will affect you. I'll just point out that, even though it is less, if you drop the hybrid into sport mode it is quicker to engage than I suspect the 2.0T is.

As for the droning, you really need to test drive it up a steep hill. I won't say it isn't an issue, but the microphones on youtube videos do tend to exaggerate it. I've driven through Appalachia, and it hasn't bothered me there.
Thanks you for that insight. On my first Hybrid test drive I was a little disappointed with the droning under heavy throttle, but I was purposely driving like a jackass just to see how intrusive the ICE is at higher RPM. I drove another Hybrid and focused on driving normally for part of the drive and also conservative. I can't say I didn't notice the engine engaging, but it was far less obtrusive.
 

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I can't comment on how the power difference will affect you. I'll just point out that, even though it is less, if you drop the hybrid into sport mode it is quicker to engage than I suspect the 2.0T is.
Only in city driving, sadly 🤣 Sport mode on highway, especially above 70 mph, just doesn't work. I find the system struggle with maintaining a good SOC on highway even for sport mode, probably because it can't find enough chance to charge the battery while each kick-down times drains a lot of juice.

But I am getting used to this now :)
Forget the ACC and just sit in the boring right lane and the MPGS would be better.
 

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Thanks you for that insight. On my first Hybrid test drive I was a little disappointed with the droning under heavy throttle, but I was purposely driving like a jackass just to see how intrusive the ICE is at higher RPM. I drove another Hybrid and focused on driving normally for part of the drive and also conservative. I can't say I didn't notice the engine engaging, but it was far less obtrusive.
If you frequently carry more passengers, or you drive in mountainous area above 40mph a lot, the 2.0T will shine, the hybrid will cry. Just my personal perspective after a lot of trips to NY upper state mountains!
 

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I think it important to emphasize this point. RCarlL won't name anything specific that makes him feel the Camry is better. It's more general impressions that can't be argued with, simply because they are only general impressions. What I recall:
  1. That Toyota has been making hybrids longer than Honda.
    1. They haven't, really. Honda actually introduced hybrids in North America before Toyota did. But Toyota was a little earlier in Japan. Since all that happened in a different century, the few months between them is irrelevant in my opinion.
    2. Still, Toyota has used only one basic configuration. Honda has used mainly two (and a third with a different purpose). I'll give him that.
    3. But there is nothing in the iMMD configuration that isn't either part of the entire history, or is non-hybrid and so predates it. So there is nothing at all to be suspicious about based on "experience."
  2. That Honda hasn't proven their reliability.
    1. They have. The system is eight years old, with no systemic issues. There is a forum for the 2014-2015 version on this site, if you want to check it out. There were not a huge number sold (RCarlL's responce), but enough so that any problems should have emerged in eight years.
    2. Consumer Reports doesn't rate either higher.
    3. Repairpal rates the Accord at 4.5 out of 5. Camry gets 4.0. It's not clear how either hybrid fits into that rating.
    4. Kelly Blue Book rates the Accord Hybrid at 4.6, and the Camry Hybrid at 3.9. Heck, I have it up, so let's look at all of KBB's comparisons. Out of 5 points, Accord Hybrid comraed to Camry Hybrid:
      1. Value 4.1 to 3.8
      2. Quality 4.5 to 3.8
      3. Reliability 4.6 to 3.9
      4. Performance 4.3 to 4.0
      5. Comfort 4.1 to 3.9
      6. Styling - I think this is not their call (But Accord is higher.)
That's largely why I said that I am biased... and if you were to reread my post, in the first line I clearly stated that both the 2.0t and hybrid Accord are both very good vehicles.

While it might be easy to dismiss my opinion as just that- my opinion- I think that there's a fair amount of value in the fact that Toyota's hybrid system has remained more consistent over the years... and that Toyota has sold a lot more hybrids over the past twenty years compared to Honda. I also owned a Camry Hybrid for nearly fifteen years and 180,000 miles- and I know how well they are built.

Toyota has indeed sold many, MANY more hybrids over the past twenty years. As a result, the infrastructure and support network for their hybrid vehicles is pretty comprehensive. There's value in that. There's value in the fact that Toyota has sold more of them- and that mechanics across the country have more exposure and experience dealing with Toyota hybrids compared to Honda hybrids. Heck- even looking at the support network in-dealership likely would be reason enough to opt for the Toyota if you are wanting a hybrid. How many techs are there at the average Honda dealership are certified to work on hybrids- and have a decent amount of experience diagnosing and repairing them? Now how about the same question regarding Toyota Hybrids?

If you like the Accord Hybrid- that's great. I'm just not as convinced with its long-term reliability as you are. That might change as more and more of the 2014-15 hybrids start posting higher mileage totals... but there just aren't enough examples of high-mileage Accord hybrids in that sub-forum. Fair amount of posts... fair amount of speculation... but not much data. Like I said- if you like em- that's great. I just have firsthand long-term experience with Toyota's hybrid system- and that is the main driver of my opinion. Besides, if you are planning on keeping it less than eight years, hybrid reliability becomes slightly less relevant due to the lengthy warranty on hybrid system components. It's mainly for owners that plan to keep their cars longer than 8 years that I recommend the Camry over the Accord hybrid.

Buy whatever makes you happy.
 
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