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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
If you frequently carry more passengers, or you drive in mountainous area above 40mph a lot, the 2.0T will shine, the hybrid will cry. Just my personal perspective after a lot of trips to NY upper state mountains!
I drive in hilly/mountainous areas of east TN, NC and Southeastern KY about 4-5 times per year, but rarely have more than one passenger. I do have a fairly steep hill coming out of my neighborhood, but at 25 MPH, I hardly doubtthe ICE would need to rev much there.
 

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I drive in hilly/mountainous areas of east TN, NC and Southeastern KY about 4-5 times per year, but rarely have more than one passenger. I do have a fairly steep hill coming out of my neighborhood, but at 25 MPH, I hardly doubtthe ICE would need to rev much there.
Best advice would probably to test drive both the 2.0t and the hybrid on your normal daily route and see which one works better for you. The hybrid has plenty of power for most people. If you are used to a 2017 V6 Touring though... you may miss the power that the 2.0t Touring has if you opt for the hybrid. Personally, I think that the 2.0t motor is hard to beat. It runs hard when you want it to- and still provides decent MPG if you put it in eco mode and are easy on the throttle. It won't get you close to MPG of the hybrid though. The 2.0t's MPG is decent for a car with that much power... but a hybrid it is not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Best advice would probably to test drive both the 2.0t and the hybrid on your normal daily route and see which one works better for you.
Good idea! If I can find an EX-L Hybrid nearby, I may see if I can test drive include my commute from home to work on the route. Should be easy assuming I can get the salesperson to stay behind and let me take the car out alone.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
So I just thought of something on the Hybrid that I can't test that could be an issue for me: The A/C performance in summer. We get some seriously warm and humid weather and I already find my Accord's A/C lacking in the cool-down performance. Is the compressor on the hybrid electric, or accessory-driven? Anyone have any insight into the A/C operation on the Hybrid?
 

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I do have a fairly steep hill coming out of my neighborhood, but at 25 MPH, I hardly doubt the ICE would need to rev much there.
The ICE in the Accord Hybrid is most efficient (40.6%) at 2000 rpm and 34 HP. It "revs" up to what it needs when that 34 HP isn't enough. But it can be above 40% up to maybe 3000 rpm and about 60 HP, where it is still fairly quiet. It tops out at 6200 rpm, and 143 HP, but only when needed.

What is often overlooked, is that the same acceleration (or hill-climbing "oomph") at 25 mph takes half the power that it takes at 50 mph, and a third of what it needs at 75 mph. So it would be quite a hill to make it need above 60 HP at 25 mph.

What is far more likely is that it will want to warm the ICE up; either as soon as you start (cold days) of when you reach that hill (warm days).
I drive in hilly/mountainous areas of east TN, NC and Southeastern KY about 4-5 times per year, but rarely have more than one passenger.
I've driven them with a passenger and luggage (Cincinnati back to Maryland, via Gatlinburg and GSMNP). I was actually more concerned with the noise when the battery filled on the way down the mountain, and it changed to engine-braking mode.
 

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So I just thought of something on the Hybrid that I can't test that could be an issue for me: The A/C performance in summer. We get some seriously warm and humid weather and I already find my Accord's A/C lacking in the cool-down performance. Is the compressor on the hybrid electric, or accessory-driven? Anyone have any insight into the A/C operation on the Hybrid?
It's electric. I've never had any issues with it, even when stopped for a half hour by construction in near 100° weather. It was on one of those trips in appalachia like I just mentioned, but I can't remember which. The wife said "Oh, I could use a soda. Let's stop here for a minute." We didn't realize they were doing significant work on the side-road's underpass, and were stopped by flagmen about 100 feet short of the entrance ramp.

The engine cut off, and the A/C kept working just fine. But about every 10 minutes, the ICE would start to replenish about 10% to 15% of the battery's state-of-charge.
 

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I think that there's a fair amount of value in the fact that Toyota's hybrid system has remained more consistent over the years... and that Toyota has sold a lot more hybrids over the past twenty years compared to Honda.
Sure. But there is also a fair amount of value in the fact that Honda's hybrid system contains nothing that hasn't existed continuously through, and sometimes before, that same period. It's put together differently, and upgraded over the years (Toyota's has been, too). But the ICE technology, with hybrid modifications, is is 20 years old. The control systems for both manufacturers have evolved pretty much the same way throughout the period. The iMMD clutch is a type that has been used for decade, and in fact is subject to less wear in the iMMD system.

All I am trying to say is that your opinion is supported only by the fact that it is your opinion, and you seem to carefully construct it so that no argument can be presented against it. There is no evidence, only what you claim is insufficient time for the lack of evidence to the contrary to become meaningful. Now, if you would define what length of time would make it meaningful, it would be different.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
The ICE in the Accord Hybrid is most efficient (40.6%) at 2000 rpm and 34 HP. It "revs" up to what it needs when that 34 HP isn't enough. But it can be above 40% up to maybe 3000 rpm and about 60 HP, where it is still fairly quiet. It tops out at 6200 rpm, and 143 HP, but only when needed.

What is often overlooked, is that the same acceleration (or hill-climbing "oomph") at 25 mph takes half the power that it takes at 50 mph, and a third of what it needs at 75 mph. So it would be quite a hill to make it need above 60 HP at 25 mph.

What is far more likely is that it will want to warm the ICE up; either as soon as you start (cold days) of when you reach that hill (warm days).
Good points! I feel like I'm expecting the ICE to be screaming its head off every time I need a little more oomph and that's likely not the case.

I've driven them with a passenger and luggage (Cincinnati back to Maryland, via Gatlinburg and GSMNP). I was actually more concerned with the noise when the battery filled on the way down the mountain, and it changed to engine-braking mode.
What sort of noise did you experience from the regen/engine braking? Were you able to slow the car with the regen paddles or just coast down?
 

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All I am trying to say is that your opinion is supported only by the fact that it is your opinion, and you seem to carefully construct it so that no argument can be presented against it. There is no evidence, only what you claim is insufficient time for the lack of evidence to the contrary to become meaningful. Now, if you would define what length of time would make it meaningful, it would be different.
I've long admitted that it is my opinion based on my own personal experience.

I'll say this- I'll be convinced when we start seeing a fair number of 2014+ Accord hybrids that have 150,000+ miles on them still running properly without needing expensive repairs. We do see that with Toyota Hybrids... lots of them. I'm sure that there are some examples of HAH with that type of mileage- it would be nice if that data was available and easy to find.

Maybe something useful out of this discussion would be the creation of a dedicated mileage thread for hybrids in both the 9th and 10th Generation hybrid sub-forums, preferably stickied so that they remain at the top. I combed thorough the 9th Generation hybrid sub-forum and didn't see one. Finding info that would be useful to proving the long-term durability of these hybrids might go a long way to reassure people. I did find a handful of people with higher mileage on their hybrids, but not very many. I also found a post from someone who bought a 2005 HAH new and put about 250,000 miles on it before it broke and his mechanic couldn't figure out how to fix it.
 

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My perception is that Toyota has been doing hybrids better, longer. Obviously that's not all true but the Prius was always there in decent enough numbers where plenty can be spotted on the roads here. Honda was in and out and cancelling hybrid models. As a consumer this gives the impression that Honda wasn't fully committed and hedging. Toyota has had decades to massage and evolve the tech. Only when the Hybrid RAV and the gas RAV were within $800 of each other did I take notice and decided if going Hybrid Toyota was the obvious choice. Besides Acura has already said that they are bypassing Hybrids altogether and going EV. So there's the end of the MDX hybrid. Seeing a pattern here? All that development on the NSX and no more Acura hybrids? I'm not sure what the ICE phaseout with Honda will be other than they will be partnering with GM on an EV I think. I've been Honda only since 2004 and never owned a Toyota until this summer when we purchased our first Toyotas. So far so good. However, as EV's are slated to sell in higher numbers IMO this tech levels the playing field for all the players to execute so hopefully they won't screw up their chance.
 

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I'm considering replacing my '17 V6 Touring even though the car market is crazy right now. I've considered a 2.0t Touring, a Hybrid Touring and most recently an EX-L Hybrid. I'm looking at a long-term plan here. A couple of factors are influencing this choice at present time:

1) Just had to have the trans replaced at a cost of over $ 2k (Honda split the costs with me) and it comes with a 3yr/36k warranty, after which I assume the risk of the remanufactured trans having issues and it would be very costly to replace/repair a second time. Not sure I'm up for that again.
2) The car has 80k miles on it and is is really, really nice condition. By the time that new car prices cool off, I'll likely have over 100k miles (18k-20k.year) and I'll be looking at a loss of ~$1k and or a harder sale/trade. Added to that, the car will be due for the timing belt job at an approximate cost of $11-$1500. So I'm looking at losing ~$2500 in the next 12-18 months. I received a $21,500 offer from Vroom last week. This car will never be worth appreciable more than it is right now.
3) Uncertainty of future gas prices. I love my V6 and it's power, but driving like I want to drive has netted me an approximate lifetime fuel mileage average of around 26MPG. I get around 20-30 on the highway, but can coax it to 33-34 if I'm mindful of my speed.

I do drive a lot of highway miles where the Hybrid is less of a benefit, but if I maintain 70-72 average speed, I should be able to pull down 38+ MPG (EX-L) most of the time, if not better. I assume the touring with it's 41 MPG Hwy and 19" wheels would be slightly less. Everywhere else would net me significantly higher than my V6 and the 2.0T. Going from a 2.0 Touring to an EX-L Hybrid (top and bottom of my current options) is a $4,400 savings in vehicle cost alone. Add in the fuel savings over 5 years and the gap widens to about $8400! The real figure would likely be higher as I calculated based on $3.25/gal. That would go a long way in some solid investments or paying down my mortgage!

I've driven the 2.0 Touring and the Hybrid Touring and while they are different cars, the core of the vehicle experience is very similar. My heart wants the sweet power of the Turbo and my brain says the Hybrid Touring or EX-L would be the wisest financial choice. I would have to alter my driving style with the Hybrid as I find the drone of the ICE under heavy acceleration undesirable. I had an 2.4l/CVT EX-L coupe before the Touring so I know how to drive for efficiency.My only real concern is the eventual cost or replacing the Hybrid battery pack. I'm trying to determine the approximate cost of this job and when one can expect the charge capacity to drop enough to warrant replacement. That could be a significant factor if it is required during my ownership of the car. Besides the potential battery costs, the hybrid should be a fair bit cheaper to maintain and be theoretically more reliable due to no complicated transmission, port injection vs direct injection, N/A vs Turbo, fewer parts to fail vs the ICE, etc.

As far as features of the Touring trims on both cars, I don't really need the HUD, 19" wheels (but they are pretty!), heated rear seats, navi, or adaptive dampers. These things are nice, but not necessarily required. As for ride quality, the 10th Gen Accord rides better than my 9th Gen and is quieter. Ive often wished for a smoother ride and the EX-L with it's 17" heels should be much smoother and maybe a hair quieter than the bling 19-inchers. I'd be making my choice and keep the new car for at least 5 years/120k miles, or more. I'd like to get it paid off ASAP and maybe add a fun car (Miata, Si, etc) or a cheap truck to my stable in the no too distant futures doing this with as much cash savings as possible is appealing. I do like my performance and spirited driving, too though.

Call it a dilemma, call it careful consideration or call it crazy. I'm just trying to parse out all the options, details and pros/cons of this decision. Any input, be in supportive or critical, is welcome. I'm interested to see any insights that I may have not considered, or over-considered.

I spent pretty much from December 2020 to October 2021 doing research, looking at all different models, pricing etc. Long story as to why the long time frame, but overall , didn't need need a new car, but was somewhat in a decent financial spot to at least start looking. I knew I wanted a mid size sedan, so came down to Honda and Toyota, and knew I wanted top trim.
Tested both, but the Accord Touring just won me over. Have had it 3 months know, and just an amazing vehicle.
You know all about it... but can tell you, you cant go wrong with this one. Hybrid, I get it, but just read way too much about them, that the long term costs, maintenance etc, when things start to go, are very expensive, and offsets any savings currently

Sound system? Some say its not the best...For what I use it for, its fine. I cant really tell any difference, at least for what I use it for.
Gas mileage? Yeah, city driving, Im around 24... Ill take it... Just handles beautifully, that 2.0 really has some pep.. and if you pop it into Sport?... buckle up...
Comfortable as well, heated and ventilated seats... driver and passenger adjustable seats, back seat climate control. Tons of trunk space. Spare.. Remote start... etc etc etc..
I kinda look at it as a next level luxury car at a sedan price.
Turbo? Scotty Kilmer does a great job explaining how the 2.0 isn't a worry , in a great video. Look on YouTube for his video entitled "Do not buy a Honda unless it has this engine"
Basically he says if you get the 1.5, that has a history of oil dilution issues, but the 2.0, and the way Honda does it, works well
Really, a beautiful ride..
 

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I did a maybe even bigger change from my 03 Acura CLS 6-speed, 6cyl to the '18 HAH Touring. My coupe was fast with limited slip diff. Not many shifters anymore so I went with a used Hybrid Touring.

The smooth low and mid range elec torque feels fast on the Accord, and quiet. I like how Honda does hybrids. You can drive on battery only for limited times if you want. The drone under higher acceleration is not great, but I overall love the quiet and efficient drive in a car this size. It's maybe my fav think about this, my first Accord, and first sedan. Mine came std. with 17" wheels, and actually the HUD is one of my fav Touring features and I like going to the gas station less.

I miss my Acura coupe but I don't miss the 6 cyl gas engine. Soon many cars with some electrification will beat the 6 cyl gas cars on speed. I would be super pissed that my 5 yr old Honda tran broke and I'd want to trade out. I think the Hybrid power train is simpler with no full trans and 4cyl ICE. I agree now is not the best time to buy, but in the end it ls up to you. I'd test drive more so see what you like. Good luck.
I personally think new cars are not worth the price. I got my 2018 for 25k certified with a year of bumper to bumper warranty left. In April 2021 before the price spikes.
 

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AC performance is great in the Hybrid, I’m near the Memphis metro area. Lowest mpg I got on a tank was 36.5 and I was driving 80mph into a headwind. Since I mostly do suburban type driving and don’t try to race, the hybrid works wonderfully for me. I average 45mpg most tanks. I sure I could improve economy a fair bit if I got rid of the big heavy 19” rims but I really like them.

Here in TN you just get 8 yrs 100k warranty coverage on the hybrid components. I plan to have this car a long time; before I purchased my car I called a dealer in San Francisco and asked how much to replace the HV battery. The guy told me five grand. I asked if he thought that price might be higher or lower in the future and he said, “I don’t know, but I can tell you it used to be $8,000.”
 

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AC performance is great in the Hybrid, I’m near the Memphis metro area. Lowest mpg I got on a tank was 36.5 and I was driving 80mph into a headwind. Since I mostly do suburban type driving and don’t try to race, the hybrid works wonderfully for me. I average 45mpg most tanks. I sure I could improve economy a fair bit if I got rid of the big heavy 19” rims but I really like them.

Here in TN you just get 8 yrs 100k warranty coverage on the hybrid components. I plan to have this car a long time; before I purchased my car I called a dealer in San Francisco and asked how much to replace the HV battery. The guy told me five grand. I asked if he thought that price might be higher or lower in the future and he said, “I don’t know, but I can tell you it used to be $8,000.”
If only Honda would do a favor and make the next gen Accord hybrid battery compatible with the current 10th gen!

Then I’d love to do such an upgrade replacement after say 200 250k miles.

Battery technologies have been blooming in recent years, and our 10th Accord hybrid is already outdated on that — it was released in 2017, so I bet the battery tech is no newer than 2016!

Still, I bet Honda is 99.9% reluctant to do this favor lol.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Well, I'm leaning heavily toward an EX-L Hybrid. The Touring 2.0t is what I really I want but knowing I'll have to pay MSRP, or slightly more to get a car pushes the cost out of my comfort zone. I can save over $8,000 over the course of 5 years (upfront vehicle cost EX-L vs Touring 2.0 and expected MPG savings) and the 17" wheels on the EX-L will make for a smoother ride, less chance of curb rashed wheels and cheaper replacement tires. I plan to buy the longest HondaCare warranty available and keep this car for at least 5-7 years. Knowing my history with cars, that's likely to NOT happen, though LOL. I'm going to see if I can arrange a longer test drive of an EX-L before I pursue an actual purchase. There are three Modern Steel Hybrid EX-Ls in transit near me, so assuming they are not all spoke for already, I might be able to get a test drive of one.

Anyone know of any features the Touring adds over the EX-L besides the list below?
  • Ventilated Front Seats - Always wanted these, but not worth much if they don't produce a noticeable effect
  • HUD - Nice extra info, but seemed to have a rainbow effect with polarized sunglasses.
  • Navi (w/ Honda Link Capability) - No needed most of the time with iPhone and LTE coverage. App control would be nice, tho.
  • Heated Rear Seats - Rarely have back seat passengers
  • 19" Wheels/tires - Look great and may handle a bit better but a big MPG penalty, easier to curb, and replacement tires are more expensive than 17"
  • Adaptive Dampers - Only active in Sport Mode I think. so not likely going to be missed.
  • Rain-Sensing Wipers - Act wonky and stupid in my '17 Touring. Not sure if improved in 10th Gen or not, but can live without them.
  • Reverse Tilt-Down Side Mirrors - Nice to have, especially since Honda killed LaneWatch on the right.
Are the features of the Touring worth the $3,500 extra cost while giving up 6 MPG on the highway and some ride comfort? I'm thinking for me, not really.
 

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Well, I'm leaning heavily toward an EX-L Hybrid. The Touring 2.0t is what I really I want but knowing I'll have to pay MSRP, or slightly more to get a car pushes the cost out of my comfort zone. I can save over $8,000 over the course of 5 years (upfront vehicle cost EX-L vs Touring 2.0 and expected MPG savings) and the 17" wheels on the EX-L will make for a smoother ride, less chance of curb rashed wheels and cheaper replacement tires. I plan to buy the longest HondaCare warranty available and keep this car for at least 5-7 years. Knowing my history with cars, that's likely to NOT happen, though LOL. I'm going to see if I can arrange a longer test drive of an EX-L before I pursue an actual purchase. There are three Modern Steel Hybrid EX-Ls in transit near me, so assuming they are not all spoke for already, I might be able to get a test drive of one.

Anyone know of any features the Touring adds over the EX-L besides the list below?
  • Ventilated Front Seats - Always wanted these, but not worth much if they don't produce a noticeable effect
  • HUD - Nice extra info, but seemed to have a rainbow effect with polarized sunglasses.
  • Navi (w/ Honda Link Capability) - No needed most of the time with iPhone and LTE coverage. App control would be nice, tho.
  • Heated Rear Seats - Rarely have back seat passengers
  • 19" Wheels/tires - Look great and may handle a bit better but a big MPG penalty, easier to curb, and replacement tires are more expensive than 17"
  • Adaptive Dampers - Only active in Sport Mode I think. so not likely going to be missed.
  • Rain-Sensing Wipers - Act wonky and stupid in my '17 Touring. Not sure if improved in 10th Gen or not, but can live without them.
  • Reverse Tilt-Down Side Mirrors - Nice to have, especially since Honda killed LaneWatch on the right.
Are the features of the Touring worth the $3,500 extra cost while giving up 6 MPG on the highway and some ride comfort? I'm thinking for me, not really.
The memory seats plus mirror position!

It’s such a pain for me because I frequently swap with my partner, and we need to adjust the side mirrors every time.

I hate it that Honda cut edges on the EX-L regarding this.
 

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Easy to buy the Touring and replace the wheels with 17's.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Easy to buy the Touring and replace the wheels with 17's.
Yes, of course that's an option. But that takes a $3,500 price differential closer to $5k with wheels and tires.
 

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Well, I'm leaning heavily toward an EX-L Hybrid. The Touring 2.0t is what I really I want but knowing I'll have to pay MSRP, or slightly more to get a car pushes the cost out of my comfort zone. I can save over $8,000 over the course of 5 years (upfront vehicle cost EX-L vs Touring 2.0 and expected MPG savings) and the 17" wheels on the EX-L will make for a smoother ride, less chance of curb rashed wheels and cheaper replacement tires. I plan to buy the longest HondaCare warranty available and keep this car for at least 5-7 years. Knowing my history with cars, that's likely to NOT happen, though LOL. I'm going to see if I can arrange a longer test drive of an EX-L before I pursue an actual purchase. There are three Modern Steel Hybrid EX-Ls in transit near me, so assuming they are not all spoke for already, I might be able to get a test drive of one.

Anyone know of any features the Touring adds over the EX-L besides the list below?
  • Ventilated Front Seats - Always wanted these, but not worth much if they don't produce a noticeable effect
  • HUD - Nice extra info, but seemed to have a rainbow effect with polarized sunglasses.
  • Navi (w/ Honda Link Capability) - No needed most of the time with iPhone and LTE coverage. App control would be nice, tho.
  • Heated Rear Seats - Rarely have back seat passengers
  • 19" Wheels/tires - Look great and may handle a bit better but a big MPG penalty, easier to curb, and replacement tires are more expensive than 17"
  • Adaptive Dampers - Only active in Sport Mode I think. so not likely going to be missed.
  • Rain-Sensing Wipers - Act wonky and stupid in my '17 Touring. Not sure if improved in 10th Gen or not, but can live without them.
  • Reverse Tilt-Down Side Mirrors - Nice to have, especially since Honda killed LaneWatch on the right.
Are the features of the Touring worth the $3,500 extra cost while giving up 6 MPG on the highway and some ride comfort? I'm thinking for me, not really.
The Touring trim also has the following that you didn't mention:
  • Four parking sensors out front. The EXL only has two. Both have four in the rear.
  • Low speed automatic braking.
  • Ambient lighting that lights up the door handles on the inside. This isn't the floor lighting that you can buy as an accessory.
  • The Touring's taillights are slightly different- and safer in my opinion. On the Touring, when you press on the brakes, LEDs in the outer fixtures and the trunk-mounted fixtures light up. On lower trim levels, only the outer fixtures light up with the brakes.

If I would have had to pay MSRP last year for my 2021- there would be no way that I'd pony up that much extra for a Touring. At the $34,000 price point- which is what I paid- a 2.0t Touring is a lot of car for the money. At full MSRP, it seems to make less sense.
 

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The Shadow II
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Anyone know of any features the Touring adds over the EX-L besides the list below?
  • Ventilated Front Seats - Always wanted these, but not worth much if they don't produce a noticeable effect
  • HUD - Nice extra info, but seemed to have a rainbow effect with polarized sunglasses.
  • Navi (w/ Honda Link Capability) - No needed most of the time with iPhone and LTE coverage. App control would be nice, tho.
  • Heated Rear Seats - Rarely have back seat passengers
  • 19" Wheels/tires - Look great and may handle a bit better but a big MPG penalty, easier to curb, and replacement tires are more expensive than 17"
  • Adaptive Dampers - Only active in Sport Mode I think. so not likely going to be missed.
  • Rain-Sensing Wipers - Act wonky and stupid in my '17 Touring. Not sure if improved in 10th Gen or not, but can live without them.
  • Reverse Tilt-Down Side Mirrors - Nice to have, especially since Honda killed LaneWatch on the right.
Are the features of the Touring worth the $3,500 extra cost while giving up 6 MPG on the highway and some ride comfort? I'm thinking for me, not really.
I think you got the list, at least that is the same list I created.

Navi came in handy on a recent road trip with 0 cell service out in the boonies.

Vented front seats = major butt saver in S. Mississippi.

Active Dampers are active across all modes


All four dampers can adapt their damping to accommodate either comfort or spirited driving.

  • In the Normal driving mode, damping fluid in all four dampers flows through valving at a relatively high volume, offering less resistance and more compliance over bumps.
  • When Sport mode is chosen, the valving is constricted for a firmer ride—and more precise cornering.


I love the Rain-sensing wipers... better than speed sensing in the old days. Wish there was a wee bit more low frequency control, but I can live with the setting.

I am learning to use/trust the reverse tilt-down, kind of handy.

HUD is a bells and whistle that doesn't float my boat either way.

I did the Touring. Mostly city driving so my tire penalty isn't as dramatic as highway
 
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