[SL600SL560]

Honda Gurus:

I've happily owned Hondas since 1980. They have all been extremely reliable until now. I have a 2016 Accord EX stick with 13K miles. The first oil change was at 1000 miles.........Mobil1 0-40. The car has had 4 subsequent oil/filter changes. About 2 weeks ago the engine developed a "rattle". The car was taken to the local dealership where the car was purchased. Initially it was hoped it was a faulty VTC actuator. The dealership dropped the oil pan and discovered "metal fragments". An inspection of the main and rod bearings reportedly revealed that the bearings appeared normal.

The dealership suspects a defect in the block. I requested a new long block from the dealer and Honda. The Honda representative explained that only a short block is indicated. The same rep didn't know the difference between a long and short block------scary!!! The car has been at the dealership since 6/12/18. I visited the car yesterday, the head was never removed. The service writer explained that the valve cover was removed and all looked fine. The dealership is waiting for the Honda short block. I've requested the head so I can take it to my indy to examine the entire head since I've grown increasingly skeptical of the entire event. I would have removed and examined the head before I made ANY decision. Why not just replace the entire engine????

Am I missing something?????

 

[HondaBob]

Crikeys, good luck. Whatever you do don't tell 'em you had 0W-40 oil in there. Isn't 0W-20 recommended for your car? I can't see the oil difference causing your damage but if they are looking for an excuse...

 

[salcuta]

If they find out what oil you had in it, you'd be in trouble.

Good luck with the new engine block though.

 

[mobiless2]

Typical for Honda to start with short block first, if issue is resolved. If not they will replace the head.

IMHO i think 0W-40 is to thick for tight tolerance of a Honda engine, why not stick to 0W-20?

 

[Justanotherguy]

Is there VTC on the 4 cyl Earth dream engine? Also clarify the oil used please. Is there even a 0w-4!?

 

[HondaBob]

Is there VTC on the 4 cyl Earth dream engine? Also clarify the oil used please. Is there even a 0w-4!?

There is 0W-40. My son just bought some for his 2005 TDI diesel Golf. The thing that I wonder about it is that many years ago, mid 70s to mid 80s or so, 10W-40 was widely used, until it was determined that the viscosity improvers were causing some problems with the piston rings. After that it was widely advised to not use 10W40. Maybe oils have improved since then to the point where there is no longer an issue with it, but I would imagine if there were an issue with it now, 0W-40 would be even worse.

 

[rookie]

Is there VTC on the 4 cyl Earth dream engine? Also clarify the oil used please. Is there even a 0w-4!?

Yeah VTC is there...

I think oil used is unclear; OP stated that first change was using 0w-40 but there were 4 subsequent oil changes?

Yet the car has 13K on the clock?

I am quite confused with this. That being said - even if you were changing oil every 1K I would not expect this to be a problem unless it was run on olive oil or something.

0w-20 is it, though; see the chart here.

 

[GolftangoV2]

Next time, use the correct weight recommended by Honda. That’s all I got.

 

[RickBlaine]

Oil weight:

5 oil changes in 13,000 miles, using 40 weight oil?....gosh? What else have you been doing? Maybe lower your oil change interval from 2,600 miles to every 500 miles, and use the correct weight.

 

[sandevino]

You may get lucky here if they've already drained the pan and disposed of the oil.

 

[Inspire02]

0-40? That will probably fall under voided warranty. :crying

 

[SL600SL560]

Honda Gurus:

I think we've gone off track.........the dealer and American Honda have absolutely no issues with using 0-40 Mobil 1. This is about a defect in casting the block not an oil failure. The 0-20 was speced solely because of the slight incremental difference in fuel economy (CAFE standards)

This thread was never meant to involve a debate on oil chemistry........I have a chem degree and still tutor college level chem.

At start up, ideally you want a thin oil for rapid pressurization and flow. Viscosity is an oil's resistance to flow and shear. The first number is the viscosity at 0*F and 210*F. During a cold start up, the 0-20 and 0-40 flow nearly identically(see ASTM D445 data) At higher engine temps, the 40 doesn't "thin out" as much. Conventional oils require viscosity improvers which reduce the impact of higher temps on viscosity..........this is due to a wide variation in carbon chain lengths(PAO). The beauty of synthetics are many including the tighter range of chain lengths and typically do not require VI additives. The VIs and longer aliphatic chains will shear and "break", old conventional oils can thin markedly. Mobil 1 typically uses an ester package which has a negative polarity that causes the oil to naturally cling to the positive polarity of the metals. Mobil 1 European( I used it for ALL the oil changes. I also use it in 2 SL65's) has a higher ZDDP content of 1000PPM......great anti-wear agent especially on cams and bearings.

If I used a 20-50, then that's a different story. 0W-X is all the same at the critical start up. I over maintain that's why the 2500 mile change frequency.

My concern was Honda trying to cheap out replacing just the short block........I'm still shocked about the block but the dealer and American Honda spoke about similar block issues with Civic engines about 2 years ago

 

[GolftangoV2]

Honda Gurus:



I think we've gone off track.........the dealer and American Honda have absolutely no issues with using 0-40 Mobil 1.

If you’re a chemist, then why even use 0w40 vs what Honda specified? Do you live in an extremely hot and hilly climate? Bottom line, 40 is thicker than the factory specified 20. With modern DI engines having such tight tolerances, I’d never deviate from what the manual says. Now I can’t speculate what happened to your block, but I’m sure that there’s some PCM logic factoring oil flow and pressure based on 0w20 flow characteristics. Throw 40 in there and it may have some done damage by over pressurizing, etc. resulting in your failure. Again, I’m just armchair quarterbacking this, but it seems logical. And to be honest I’m shocked both Honda and your dealer have no issues with running non-specified oil. But I digress.

My concern was Honda trying to cheap out replacing just the short block........I'm still shocked about the block but the dealer and American Honda spoke about similar block issues with Civic engines about 2 years ago

There were issues with the engine blocks on 06-09 Civics, but there are no known issues with the Accords 2.4 blocks. The 2.4s as they age, may burn oil, but the blocks are stout. And replacing the short block is the first step. If they find they need to replace the entire block, they will.

 

[Blackheart]

During a cold start up, the 0-20 and 0-40 flow nearly identically(see ASTM D445 data)

Look at the data more closely. The "0W" means that at the coldest of temperatures tested, the oil either exhibits signs of flow, or doesn't exhibit flow. If you look at the centi-Stokes at all specific temperatures beginning just above this coldest temp where they are noting Flow or No Flow, you will see the 0W40 is thicker from that initial Flow or No Flow temp all the way up to operating temp.

I will agree your choice of oil most probably had nothing to do with your engine's problem, but, since you are a chemist and brought this part up as a fact, I thought you might be interested.

 

[SL600SL560]

Honda Gurus:

Mobil 1 oil testing data

MRV for 0-40 is 21,600 MRV for 0-20 is 26,800 (lower is better flow at start up)


Hence slightly better start up flow but either Mobil 1 product provides excellent protection. The 0-40 provides a better high temp protection(less wear due to better film thickness being maintained). There are myriad oil tests for low temp, high temp and breakdown over time. I've used Mobil 1 for decades without an issue. Honda recommends the 0-20 solely due to slightly better fuel economy.

Actually I'm pretty sure it's Honda acceptable to use non-synthetic oil.....see the Honda owner's manual.

Using Mobil 1 0-40 didn't cause a casting defect in the 2.4.......just a rare issue that can happen to any manufacturer. My ONLY concern was Honda not using a long block.

Oil threads never end well...........everyone has an opinion.

Best regards
Mike

 

[mtts60]

My ONLY concern was Honda not using a long block.

What's the difference in this case? The problem appears to be in the casting, so a short block is an equally effective repair. All the stuff outside the existing block would get transferred to the new one.

 

[Blackheart]

Honda Gurus:

Mobil 1 oil testing data

MRV for 0-40 is 21,600 MRV for 0-20 is 26,800 (lower is better flow at start up)

According to Mobil 1 website,
MRV for 0w40 is 21,600 at NEGATIVE 40 degrees C.
MRV for 0w20 is 9,200 at NEGATIVE 40 degrees C. This is the AFE version, there are probably other 0w20 versions. What version did you look up?

Neither of those MRV values defines flow at "start up". Those numbers only describe viscosities at extremely severe temps.

The 0w40 has 70.8 cSt at 40 Degrees C, whereas the 0w20 has 44.8 cSt at 40 degrees C. This is about 100 degrees F, for those that aren't used to the conversion. 40 degrees C is closer to a normal "start up" temp than negative 40 C, if we are talking about the average year-round temp in the USA.

The 0w40 has 12.9 cSt at 100 degrees C, whereas the 0w20 has 8.7 cSt at 100 degrees C. This is about 212 degrees F.

The 0w40 is thicker at all temperatures than the 0w20.

One other statement you made about 0w40 providing better protection, you said it was due to its higher viscosity: viscosity is only one form of "protection". Anti-wear (HTHS) additives provide another type of protection. Unless the 0w40 has at least the equivalent functionality of additives, it's simply thicker than 0w20, therefore it is not accurate to say 0w40 provides "better protection". There are 0w40's that are loaded with Zinc, for example, and those that aren't. It depends upon the environment in which they are used as to whether the higher Zinc version provides better protection than the not-so-high Zinc version. Mostly, high Zinc is a valve-train requirement, and simply adding Zinc can negatively affect other characteristics of the additive blend, depending upon the composition of those additives (such as anti-foam, acid neutralizers, soot suspension detergents, etc). This is why people that think they can just add and blend whatever they think is best, can sometimes end up with a very poor performing lubricant.

You are correct, oil threads rarely end well, not because "everyone has an opinion". It's at least partly because of inaccurate statements that are made, such as those I pointed out.

 

[GolftangoV2]

Blackheart, you don’t think the use of a thicker oil could have caused issues? I mean they’d (Honda) have to do a postmortem on the block to find the issue, so it’s all speculation until we get that data,
If ever. But I’d be very curious to see.

 

[visionguru]

...
Oil threads never end well...........everyone has an opinion.
...

It's you who have an opinion. Obviously, you are better than Honda engineers. Replacing 0w20 with 0w40? why not olive oil?

Consider yourself extremely lucky if Honda doesn't void your warranty.

To be frank, what you did was STUPID, and could well be the cause of your engine trouble. All you have to do is changing the oil on time with the right type.

I use Mobil 1 0W40 on my Audi and 0w20 on my Accord. They are very different oils. The 0w20 is soooooo much lighter. 0W40 is called "European formula" for a reason.

 

[Blackheart]

Blackheart, you don’t think the use of a thicker oil could have caused issues? I mean they’d (Honda) have to do a postmortem on the block to find the issue, so it’s all speculation until we get that data,
If ever. But I’d be very curious to see.

Heck, I have no idea. It's most probably just a defect and not related to oil, but, I'm certainly not an expert.

From my experience, experts RARELY, if ever, participate in forums such as these...