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Even My Mower Is a Honda!
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Jay
 

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2014 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring vs. 2013 Honda Accord EX-L Four-Cylinder

The Hybrid is 1/2 second faster in 0 - 60. What's the payback period on that? What's the payback period for a V6 Accord vs the I4?

For me I know that the Hybrid will cost more overall, even considering the fuel savings. But I still want one and have ordered one. I like the technology. I like how it can drive quietly. I like that it's different. I like the color combination of Obsidian Blue Pearl and black leather interior that you can only get on the Hybrid (regular EX-L have gray interior and the Sport is not on my radar). I like the wheels on the Hybrid. I like that it doesn't have a transmission. I like electric drive. Etc.
 

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2013 Accord EXL I4
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
For me I know that the Hybrid will cost more overall, even considering the fuel savings. But I still want one and have ordered one.
That's how the Hybrids are sold: good marketing + the green crowd + people just want one.

As for edmunds.com review

1) used CA gas prices
2) got much more than Fuelly.com for the Hybrid
3) got much less than Fuelly.com for the I4
4) made no attempt to hyper-mile the I4
5) kept batteries warm in south CA
6) drove 40% city
...still say the break-even point to 5 years.

In the real world

1) Accord Hybrid is not doing so well 35 mpg combined average: http://www.fuelly.com/car/honda/accord/2014/hybrid l4
2) Accord I4 is doing well with 32-34 mpg combined average: http://www.fuelly.com/car/honda/accord/2013/gas l4
3) My hyper-mile I4 mix = 36.3-37.5 mpg: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/11533913915
4) My hyper-mile I4 highway = 45.4 mpg http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/11533925615

I'm in the technology field I love tech. Hybrids are fun to operate in many ways/ I myself would pay a little extra to own one, but in my case I'd never break-even.
 

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Blinded by the light
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That's how the Hybrids are sold: good marketing + the green crowd + people just want one.

As for edmunds.com review

1) used CA gas prices
2) got much more than Fuelly.com for the Hybrid
3) got much less than Fuelly.com for the I4
4) made no attempt to hyper-mile the I4
5) kept batteries warm in south CA
6) drove 40% city
...still say the break-even point to 5 years.

In the real world

1) Accord Hybrid is not doing so well 35 mpg combined average: http://www.fuelly.com/car/honda/accord/2014/hybrid l4
2) Accord I4 is doing well with 32-34 mpg combined average: http://www.fuelly.com/car/honda/accord/2013/gas l4
3) My hyper-mile I4 mix = 36.3-37.5 mpg: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/11533913915
4) My hyper-mile I4 highway = 45.4 mpg http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/11533925615

I'm in the technology field I love tech. Hybrids are fun to operate in many ways/ I myself would pay a little extra to own one, but as you said you'll never break-even in this case.
I've read that the Hybrid does very well achieving its MPG unlike some other hybrids. Here's an article that I read:

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/test-drive-2014-honda-accord-hybrid-50-mpg-dream-review.html

That video where you pick up 45MPG is great, but you were also running at the optimum speed for the cvt and your trip was downhill ~700ft. The I4 is like a V8 pickup truck compared to the Hybrid if you commute in a populated region. If you do a lot of highway driving then the Hybrid is not for you.
 

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2013 Accord EXL I4
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I've read that the Hybrid does very well achieving its MPG unlike some other hybrids. Here's an article that I read:

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/test-drive-2014-honda-accord-hybrid-50-mpg-dream-review.html

That video where you pick up 45MPG is great, but you were also running at the optimum speed for the cvt and your trip was downhill ~700ft. The I4 is like a V8 pickup truck compared to the Hybrid if you commute in a populated region. If you do a lot of highway driving then the Hybrid is not for you.
I am sure that Honda Hybrid tech will do well in comparison to the competition. 53 mpg in the city is a great number! It would be great to see that on fully.com in the months to com. Right now people are not seeing that in real world driving which is what I posted.

Yes I was maximizing the I4 to hit 45.4 mpg over many hundreds of miles, but it is achievable and real world. Even with some stop and go I was able to hit 41.1 mpg over 700 mile distance.

From my photo of mixed driving (50% highway, 40% county, 10% city) in the rolling hills of North GA you can see I average 38.86 mpg over 1,484.1 miles. Key is to keep the engine at 1750 rpms with the CVT.

Unless you live in the city of a warm state (Hybrids hate the cold) with high gas prices I can’t see purchasing a hybrid on the ground of savings. I would say less than 5% of people fit that group and that 75%+ match my driving pattern.

Good discussion! Thanks.
 

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I'm having a hard time believing that consumers reporting to fuelly are reporting that low of MPG on the Hybrid in real world testing. All the reviewers say that it does really well and some even show 'proof' of the MPG gain. I could only see getting those number on a high speed interstate running at 80+MPH. Here are some more numbers on the HWY which are much higher than fuelly:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1310_2014_honda_accord_hybrid_touring_first_test/

The Hybrid will get much better MPG than the I4 in the city, and substantially better on the HWY. With fuelly's incredibly low numbers and small sample size compared to the hundreds of automotive journalists who reviewed this car, it's unwise to use them as a comparison.

Hybrids aren't just a green (or rather blue) fad anymore. For a few thousand more you can double your city mileage compared to the I4.
 

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2013 Accord EXL I4
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I'm having a hard time believing that consumers reporting to fuelly are reporting that low of MPG on the Hybrid in real world testing. All the reviewers say that it does really well and some even show 'proof' of the MPG gain. I could only see getting those number on a high speed interstate running at 80+MPH. Here are some more numbers on the HWY which are much higher than fuelly:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1310_2014_honda_accord_hybrid_touring_first_test/

The Hybrid will get much better MPG than the I4 in the city, and substantially better on the HWY. With fuelly's incredibly low numbers and small sample size compared to the hundreds of automotive journalists who reviewed this car, it's unwise to use them as a comparison.

Hybrids aren't just a green (or rather blue) fad anymore. For a few thousand more you can double your city mileage compared to the I4.
I agree that the Fuelly.com data is a small data sample. We'll need more owners reporting in to determine a trend. What got me thinking about this subject was a post on this site where Hybrid Accord owners are saying about actual miles... Not looking to good so far. Also I've noticed a trend of the "professional reviews" all in at sea level in warm places usually never in Dec-Feb. Hybrids hate the cold. Just a thought.

The Hybrid Accord is not "just a few thousand more". Got my EXL for under $24k and the Hybrids are selling for $30k+. Even if we took the EPA city 26 mpg vs 50 mpg... you'd have to do about 100,000 city miles to come close to break even.

You've not convinced me that it is a better value. But I am open to the idea.
 

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Blinded by the light
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I agree that the Fuelly.com data is a small data sample. We'll need more owners reporting in to determine a trend. What got me thinking about this subject was a post on this site where Hybrid Accord owners are saying about actual miles of the Hybrid. Not looking to good so far. I've noticed a trend of the "professional reviews" all in warm places usually not in Dec-Feb. Hybrids hate the cold. Just a thought.

The Hybrid Accord is not "just a few thousand more". Got my EXL for under $24k and the Hybrids are selling for $30k+. Even if we took the EPA city 26 mpg vs 50 mpg... you'd have to do about 100,000 city miles to come close to break even.

You've not convinced me that it is a better value. But I am open to the idea.
List price in EX-L is 28k, EX-L Hybrid is <32K, so a few thousand more. All vehicles preform worse in cold weather, the review above was in late October.

I'm not trying to convince you to purchase one, I'm trying to prevent the inconsistent numbers that were presented from skewing others opinion.
 

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You should read Motor Trend's review they did in Japan this summer.

Experimenting with engine revs, we found that the Accord Hybrid generates the best mileage between 2000 to 2700 rpm. As long as you keep the battery charged, you can clear 50 mpg. Go beyond that range and fuel economy progressively worsens. How you manage your charge and right foot extension can mean the difference between 59 mpg and 40 mpg. But if you are prudent with your right foot while puttering around city streets and manage your fuel consumption, one colleague says you can achieve even higher figures by keeping the car in its electric only mode. On a short run, he clocked 62 mpg.

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...ccord_hybrid_japan_first_drive/#ixzz2oRKBmuf0
 

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2013 Accord EXL I4
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
List price in EX-L is 28k, EX-L Hybrid is <32K, so a few thousand more. All vehicles preform worse in cold weather, the review above was in late October.

I'm not trying to convince you to purchase one, I'm trying to prevent the inconsistent numbers that were presented from skewing others opinion.
Using strait MSRP is intellectually dishonest. The numbers at www.truecar.com back this up.

2014 Honda Accord EX-L I4 is $25,780 http://www.truecar.com/prices-new/honda/accord-sedan-pricing/2014/CDA02E24/

2014 Honda Accord Hybrid is $32,603 http://www.truecar.com/prices-new/honda/accord-hybrid-pricing/2014/D0B983BE/

$6,525 ($32,603 less $25,780) is not a "few thousand". Also consider that TTL + insurance are also going to be more expensive on the Hybrid over the years. But lets stay with the $6,525+ number for TCO.

Even at $3.50/gal that is 1,949 gallons of fuel for the I4. Even at the EPA city rating of 27 MPG (vs 50) you can go another 52,635 miles city miles in the I4. If you look at the highway EPA of 36 MPG (vs 45) you'd have to drive 70,179 more miles in the I4.

If you live in the south (like me) where gas is around $3.00/gal that is 2,274 gallons of fuel and 61,407 / 81,876 miles respectively.

The numbers I posted are from www.fulley.com they are not mine. To them was my personal experience with the I4 [ with documentation ]. People can take the data for what it's worth.

My observation is that the I4 can get low 40's on the highway. Which at $3.00/gal is 93,247 miles. But then again, you can use the $6,525 to buy a supermotar + gopro hero 3 that gets better mpg and a lot more fun than the Hybrid...


... but I digress.

I am hoping the MPG on the Hybrids are better than EPA and the OTD price goes down after the first wave of buyers. It might make sense to buy for those not in the city.

In the end I would encourage people to look at www.truecar.com and www.fuelly.com in making their own determination.
 

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Blinded by the light
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Using strait MSRP is intellectually dishonest. The numbers at www.truecar.com back this up.

2014 Honda Accord EX-L I4 is $25,780 http://www.truecar.com/prices-new/honda/accord-sedan-pricing/2014/CDA02E24/

2014 Honda Accord Hybrid is $32,603 http://www.truecar.com/prices-new/honda/accord-hybrid-pricing/2014/D0B983BE/

$6,525 ($32,603 less $25,780) is not a "few thousand". Also consider that TTL + insurance are also going to be more expensive on the Hybrid over the years. But lets stay with the $6,525+ number for TCO.

Even at $3.50/gal that is 1,949 gallons of fuel for the I4. Even at the EPA city rating of 27 MPG (vs 50) you can go another 52,635 miles city miles in the I4. If you look at the highway EPA of 36 MPG (vs 45) you'd have to drive 70,179 more miles in the I4.

If you live in the south (like me) where gas is around $3.00/gal that is 2,274 gallons of fuel and 61,407 / 81,876 miles respectively.

The numbers I posted are from www.fulley.com they are not mine. To them was my personal experience with the I4 [ with documentation ]. People can take the data for what it's worth.

My observation is that the I4 can get low 40's on the highway. Which at $3.00/gal is 93,247 miles. But then again, you can use the $6,525 to buy a supermotar + go pro like me that gets better mpg and a lot more fun than the Hybrid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YCe3mv7IAU

... but I digress.

I am hoping the MPG on the Hybrids are better than EPA and the OTD price goes down after the first wave of buyers. It might make sense to buy for those not in the city.

In the end I would encourage people to look at www.truecar.com and www.fuelly.com in making their own determination.

Not sure why you look at prices on other sites, MSRP at Honda for EX-L sedan is $28270.

http://automobiles.honda.com/tools/...odelID=&ModelName=Accord Sedan&ModelYear=2014

MSRP for the EX-L Hybrid is $31905

http://automobiles.honda.com/tools/...delID=&ModelName=Accord Hybrid&ModelYear=2014

= $3635 more you pay for the Hybrid.

Which brings it down to 1038 gallons @$3.50.

I used the fuel calculator here and put in the combined EPA mileage and left the default miles and years:



So in a little over five years you pay off the extra for the car @15000 mi a year. If gas prices go up faster, down then slower. Inevitably gas prices will rise since it's not a renewable resource.

If you take a look at State Farm you will see that the insurance premiums for the hybrid have a cheaper index than the standard hybrid in personal injury permiums. This may not apply the same way to the accord hybrid.

http://learningcenter.statefarm.com/auto/vehicle-rating.html
 

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to the above post ... the thinking goes that the more expensive car might have a higher resale value too
-------------------------------------------------------

We've got threads on Priuschat about the Accord Hybrid as well. That site keeps on eye on so many adv tech car topics.

At this point, the word on Accord Hybrid is: Many reviewers were able to get near the EPA estimates. Obviously, Accord Hybrid is doing poorly on www.fuelly.com so far. From under 29 MPG avg to 39 avg. We can only hope it goes wayyy up.

I live in SF Bay Area. Cold for us is low 30s F mornings, high 40 during day.

We've been from low 40s to low 60s lately and my Prius liftback gage is 55.6 MPG (52.x actual) at 280 miles into this tank, no hypermiling at all. That's why people buy 10k+ Priuses a month in US....

my lifetime actual is 51.2 MPG http://www.fuelly.com/driver/lm3gpri/prius

There should be no break-in period required to get good MPGs in Accord Hybrid. And if owners are getting 30 something MPG in Accord Hybrid in 50 or 60 F weather ... then perhaps they should sell the car to someone who knows what to do with it, like me ... for half price :)
 

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2013 Accord EXL I4
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Not sure why you look at prices on other sites?
You paid MSRP for your V6 Accord? :jawdrop:

Informed buyers research prices and negotiate with the dealer. www.truecar.com is extremely popular site where you can get a certificate to get a good discount. Here is one from a local dealer here in GA:

https://www.truecar.com/ucr/web/q/7...9878067&vehicleConfigurationVersionId=1068484

You can confirm this price by contacting

George Foster
11085 Alpharetta Highway, Roswell, GA 30076
[email protected] (770) 993-2805

But that is their first offer, you can haggle that price down more as most do. So the $6,525 is more than a real number.

But again we also have to consider tax on a $32,603 Hybrid in LA (since we're using CA gas prices) is 9%. That is a crazy $2,934.27 or $614.07 more than the I4.

That brings the delta to $7139.07

Insurance on a $32k version of $25k car will be more.
 

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.... Unnless you live in the city of a warm state (Hybrids hate the cold) with high gas prices I can’t see purchasing a hybrid on the ground of savings. I would say less than 5% of people fit that group and that 75%+ match my driving pattern.

Good discussion! Thanks.
Can live in suburbs too and get good mpgs in hybrids...

I can roll 10 miles down highway at 65+ mph and get sometimes low 40's in colder temps (even after warmed up) and near 50 mpg on highway when about 50+ F ....

but the beauty with hybrid is when slowing down, getting stuck in traffic, getting off highway, etc ......

the MPGs go up ... instead of down like in a conventional. You cannot beat hybrid's regenerative brakes, battery recharge, engine off, EVing ...
 

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2013 Accord EXL I4
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
to the above post ... the thinking goes that the more expensive car might have a higher resale value too
-------------------------------------------------------

We've got threads on Priuschat about the Accord Hybrid as well. That site keeps on eye on so many adv tech car topics.

At this point, the word on Accord Hybrid is: Many reviewers were able to get near the EPA estimates. Obviously, Accord Hybrid is doing poorly on www.fuelly.com so far. From under 29 MPG avg to 39 avg. We can only hope it goes wayyy up.

I live in SF Bay Area. Cold for us is low 30s F mornings, high 40 during day.

We've been from low 40s to low 60s lately and my Prius liftback gage is 55.6 MPG (52.x actual) at 280 miles into this tank, no hypermiling at all. That's why people buy 10k+ Priuses a month in US....

my lifetime actual is 51.2 MPG http://www.fuelly.com/driver/lm3gpri/prius

There should be no break-in period required to get good MPGs in Accord Hybrid. And if owners are getting 30 something MPG in Accord Hybrid in 50 or 60 F weather ... then perhaps they should sell the car to someone who knows what to do with it, like me ... for half price :)
Love SF! We go out there now and then...

The Prius is a great car with some long term engineering going into it. I considered it when looking this past June.

As I said in the other post I'd like to see the MPG on www.fuelly.com go way up for the Hybrid Accord. Especially for people that have a more even balance of highway miles.
 

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That's how the Hybrids are sold: good marketing + the green crowd + people just want one.


1) Accord Hybrid is not doing so well 35 mpg combined average: http://www.fuelly.com/car/honda/accord/2014/hybrid l4
2) Accord I4 is doing well with 32-34 mpg combined average: http://www.fuelly.com/car/honda/accord/2013/gas l4
3) My hyper-mile I4 mix = 36.3-37.5 mpg: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/11533913915
4) My hyper-mile I4 highway = 45.4 mpg http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/11533925615

I'm in the technology field I love tech. Hybrids are fun to operate in many ways/ I myself would pay a little extra to own one, but as you said you'll never break-even in this case.
In your highway video, the 45 MPG looks cool, but what were the conditions? bit of downhill? :D I'm guessing the 18.7 is from the traffic jam?

The 41.1 MPG over 600 miles is impressive .... but isn't 55 a bit slow for highway? Looks like you're getting passed up a good bit out there. :D
 

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In the cherry picked real world

2) Accord I4 is doing well with 32-34 mpg combined average: http://www.fuelly.com/car/honda/accord/2013/gas l4
I looked through a few samples on your link.

http://www.fuelly.com/driver/marsean/accord 32.9 MPG - 84% Highway / 16% City

http://www.fuelly.com/driver/tn9thsi/accord 32.8 MPG - 70% Highway / 30% City

In fact the first example is 1.1 MPG lower than the EPA estimates if you personalize this

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=33269&id=34395

and make it 84% highway, 16% city, you'll get an EPA estimated 34 MPG.

Maybe there are some examples of a statistically significant number of reports of drivers crushing the EPA estimates in their 4 cylinder Accords. But the two I picked, by clicking two high numbers at random, show that they're right on with EPA figures.

Now, I am concerned about the low numbers that are being reported by the fuelly users with Accord Hybrids, and by some owners posting on this board. Not enough to cancel my order. There are a few possible explanations as to why the early numbers are low:
  • cars not broken in yet
  • cold temperatures
  • drivers unfamiliar with how to manage their driving habits to maximize their fuel economy with this hybrid
  • some flaw in the manufactured vehicles causing them not to perform like early test models did
  • intentionally misleading postings by competitors or Toyota Prius fanbois
  • maybe it's just another Ford Fusion Hybrid fiasco where 47 MPG was all the rage, but in the end the car only gets around 41 MPG.

However, there's enough counter evidence from other credible sources from their real world tests that give me hope that the car can perform as advertised or better.

You ought to google "Accord Hybrid" and read up on what the reviewers are saying. Here's one example:

http://www.edmunds.com/honda/accord-hybrid/2014/comparison-test.html

According to the EPA, the Accord Hybrid returns 47 mpg combined (50 city/45 highway) for an estimated annual fuel cost of $1,100. The EPA estimates the four-cylinder EX-L at 30 mpg (27 city/36 highway) for an estimated annual fuel cost of $1,750. Our testing showed the Hybrid's advantage to be even more significant.

I agree with your pricing too. I can buy a Hybrid EX-L for $31,000. Let's assume you can get a great deal on a regular EX-L for $25,000. That's $6,000 more before any other expenses are factored in. My insurance agent gave me a ballpark quote. The Hybrid is more expensive to insure for me by about $250 the first year. Using the numbers in the Edmunds showdown I figured my 5 year premium for the Hybrid to be $1,214.



Or $3,129 using EPA numbers.



None of these calculations include increases in fuel prices. Nor do they take into account that I might keep the car for 10 years.

I'm not going into this purchase thinking I'm going to save a ton of cash. I'm going into it because I think the car is cool. For the last 25 years I've driven two Honda Accords - an 89 LXi hatchback and an 01 EX-L Sedan. The regular EX-L is not that much different than the cars I've driven for the last 25 years. The Hybrid is.
 

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I don't think the Accord Hybrids should need much break in to get the big MPGs in decent conditons ... if it's capable. My prius hit 51 MPG on gage after the 20 minutes mixed test drive starting at 6 miles on ODO total.
 
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