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Discussion Starter #1
Well finally pulled the trigger on new rotors, pads, and stainless steel lines.

Here is the rotor/pad package I bought. I got the 4 wheel with black zinc centers.

Premium Dimpled & Slotted Brake Kit

For lines I went with these.

StopTech Brake Lines, StopTech Stainless Steel Braided Brake Lines

I think I am going to like this set up. I can say I have taxed the brakes on this car.

Never ran dimpled and slotted before seems it will be a good choice.

I ran cross drilled and slotted on my last car for about 9 years and never an issue, just I think 3 sets of pads.

So not sure when I will see them but will post up as I go on the install.

I need to find 8 of those screws in the rotors though. Better hunt those up now.

I did look at some big brake kits for 7,000:0 Well I did not look they came up in the search. Man what would you need 7K worth of brakes on a Accord for?

I mean I will be in about 600.00 all said and done so not cheap, but not too bad for something pretty important.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Well the parts are trickling in. Got these today.



Looking forward to this project.

Will flush the clutch while I am at it also.
 

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RacerRik
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Why do you want to buy these screws? You know you do not need them right? They exist because the factory needs to have the rotors held on the hubs before wheels are put on the car. They serve no other purpose and therefore can be deleted unless you plan to drive your car with no wheel....
 

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I know that they are unnecessary but it's a matter of having a piece of mind when I assemble my brake parts. You got bigger things to worry about than someone else buying a set of screws.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Just staying with what is there myself. If something is there when I take it apart, it goes back in. I hear these are a bear to take out. At any rate I bought new and will reinstall them. Just the way I am.
 

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RacerRik
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If you have an electric impact driver with a #3 Phillips bit, those screws are a piece of cake. You can also use an air impact gun with reducers to get to a #3 Phillips bit and that works just as well.

Braided stainless steel lines are a waste of money - you will see no improvement from them and they are not legal for street use in many areas that have required safety inspections for license renewal.
 

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Really?

you will see no improvement from them and they are not legal for street use in many areas

I don't have them in my present Accord, but had them in my '08 Civic Si and my 2000 Accord. They did improve the pedal feel.

I never heard of them not being legal anywhere, ever. If they're DOT approved, how can they not be legal?
 

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RacerRik
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I don't have them in my present Accord, but had them in my '08 Civic Si and my 2000 Accord. They did improve the pedal feel.

I never heard of them not being legal anywhere, ever. If they're DOT approved, how can they not be legal?
This is called the placebo effect. You expect them to make a difference so in your mind you think they made a difference. Did you do any objective testing? Like measure how far it takes the car to stop from a fixed speed before and after replacing the brake lines?

As far as not being legal, safety inspectors can and do call out failures for non-standard parts (DOT approved or not!). I was told by a local inspector that he cannot tell the condition of the inner hose with stainless steel braid covering it. Therefore he will not pass a state inspection for a car with braided stainless steel lines.

For anyone making mods to their cars braking system, you really should do a before and after test. Unlike dyno runs (which many people pay for to test their engine mods) brake testing is free. Get a long tape measure ( 100') and a couple of milk jugs. Find a big empty parking lot and put your milk jugs about 12 feet apart in the middle of the lot. Then get up to speed (50 MPH is plenty) and brake as hard as you can (without ABS kicking in) when you go through the milk jugs. Measure the distance from where the car stops back to the jugs. I recommend doing this three times and averaging the distance. Repeat after mods and you have a pretty good idea if your mods helped or hurt your braking distance. Ideally, you want the temperature to be the same for each test because temperature can have a significant effect on brake performance.

While you are testing - just for fun - try a pedal to the floor ABS stop and compare that distance to the best you can do threshold braking and staying out of ABS. I think most people are surprised at how much ABS hurts stopping distance. Don't do this until you have your three good runs in without getting into ABS.

Anything else is rubbish. Seat of the pants dynos are no good for checking engine performance and no good for brake testing either.

"Pedal feel" is the worst possible measure of braking performance. In general, people looking for improved braking performance always equate "brake bite" with brake performance. Typically, those two have nothing to do with each other. In fact, brakes that "bite" harder tend to make stopping more difficult without getting into ABS and therefore stopping distance suffers.

As a reference for how far should you car take to brake from 50 MPH, I am the autocross course designer for our local club. I allow 100 ft to get stopped from 50 MPH. A car that brakes well can do it in much less than that.
 

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La-di-da

I was careful not to say stopping distance. There are lots of factors relating to brakes that are important: initial bite, consistency, linearity, modulation, fade resistance, firm/soft/spongy pedal etc. To reduce the efficacy of brakes to stopping distance is to not understand brake performance.

No matter how good anyone thinks they are at modulating brakes, one thing that ABS can do that can't otherwise be done is to modulate each of the 4 wheels independently. Of course if you never drive on any surface that might have oil or water or sand or ice or dirt then you might not need ABS.
 

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RacerRik
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So stopping distance is not the "end all, be all" for brakes huh? I assure you it is actually! And I understand brakes very well.

ABS is crutch for poor drivers. A safety net forced on us by the people who look out for us. I have driven many, many cars in racing conditions and I can tell you with no doubt - ABS cannot stop a car as fast as a good driver. Granted, the ABS on newer cars is much better than it used to be, but it still functions only when a tire locks up. If you are locking up tires, you are not threshold braking and are therefore not stopping as fast as the car is capable of stopping.

And to say ABS modulates the brakes - that is a stretch. ABS is a modern version of what they used to teach poor drivers - pump your brakes.... It pumps the brakes way faster than a human, but they are on and off not modulated.

I am just guessing here based on your statements but I suspect you have not driven a car in racing conditions. You really should give it a go. It will open your mind to what a car can do and teach you better car control. I am sure you can find an autocross or a track that has PDX days near where you live. Be sure to take a coach along when you do and you will learn skills that just might save your life someday.

Just for full disclosure - I am also an autocross driving coach, so what I am saying comes from over 21 years of racing experience. And I do "crazy stuff" like brake tests after modifying and/or working on brakes. And I constantly help these kids that come to autocross and PDX events with their modded cars that work no where near as good as stock. Some of them are "way too smart" to listen to my advice and soon they quit the sport since they never do well at it. Others are coachable and I help get them and their cars performing at levels far above where they started. A few of them can even out drive me now - the pupil has become the master!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I do not care who you are. You are out of your mind making a statement that braided lines offer no better braking then rubber lines. Just look at the swelling of the lines compared to SS lines. And as far as inspection even more insane BS from you. There is no way he can tell what the inside of your rubber lines look like either, well except by the brake fluid color at best. I just can not believe you make such statements. EVERY performance car including NASCAR run SS. Must be a reason and no one there is taking drugs or receiving placebos.

And with slotted and dimpled rotors, and semi metallic pads it will stop a lot quicker then OE, and I do mean stopping distance. And brake fade will be all but gone with the rotors being able to off gas due to the dimples and slots.

Not sure where you instruct or whatever but you are making some statements here that have been shown to be inaccurate and false.

Search for performance of SS lines. Not sure where you get you biased and untrue information but you need to go back to school and figure out where you went wrong.

If you truly believe OE brake lines are better then SS please just keep that thought, but start your own thread and rant your BS somewhere else. Just leave my thread alone. See if you can get support for you insane statement on your OWN thread.
 

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The placebo effect has made RicRac a legend in his own mind

ABS cannot stop a car as fast as a good driver.
It's extremely difficult to keep brakes on the verge of incipient lockup.
It's impossible for any driver to modulate any combination of each of four brakes independently, as would be needed it one or two tires were on dirt and the others on asphalt. Or if one or two tires were on wet pavement and the others on dry paverment.

Stopping distance is actually the "end all, be all" for brakes!
How often do cars go from speed to 0 mph as quickly as possible during an autocross event? Or any other event for that matter?
 

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in every car I ever installed SS brake lines, I had better pedal response and piece of mind knowing my old lines were not swelling and cracking...the fluid was going to the caliper.

...maybe just replacing the brakes lines with the original- OEM (as I did on other cars) I had improved pedal response, but nothing compared to SS upgrades. and NO, I did not do a side by side :sigh:

but...I am just a driveway mechanic. what do I know?
 

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RacerRik
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I do not care who you are. You are out of your mind making a statement that braided lines offer no better braking then rubber lines. Just look at the swelling of the lines compared to SS lines. And as far as inspection even more insane BS from you. There is no way he can tell what the inside of your rubber lines look like either, well except by the brake fluid color at best. I just can not believe you make such statements. EVERY performance car including NASCAR run SS. Must be a reason and no one there is taking drugs or receiving placebos.

And with slotted and dimpled rotors, and semi metallic pads it will stop a lot quicker then OE, and I do mean stopping distance. And brake fade will be all but gone with the rotors being able to off gas due to the dimples and slots.

Not sure where you instruct or whatever but you are making some statements here that have been shown to be inaccurate and false.

Search for performance of SS lines. Not sure where you get you biased and untrue information but you need to go back to school and figure out where you went wrong.

If you truly believe OE brake lines are better then SS please just keep that thought, but start your own thread and rant your BS somewhere else. Just leave my thread alone. See if you can get support for you insane statement on your OWN thread.
Not out of my mind even a little but. Just giving you facts that you apparently don't want to hear. I guess I can't blame you for being upset after spending $600 to make your car less safe and worse at stopping.

You accuse me of spouting BS, but you make statements like "EVERY performance car including NASCAR run SS." In fact, not a single production street legal car, including the super cars, use SS brake lines. NASCAR does and so do most racing cars but not for the reason you think. They use SS lines because they are not easily cut by the road debris that race cars drive through when crashes occur on the track. Look it up if you don't believe me.

You spout more BS with these statements: "And with slotted and dimpled rotors, and semi metallic pads it will stop a lot quicker then OE, and I do mean stopping distance. And brake fade will be all but gone with the rotors being able to off gas due to the dimples and slots."

Slotted and dimpled rotors WILL NOT reduce your stopping distance. They will increase pad wear and will reduce the strength of the rotors thus making a cracked rotor more likely. Again, these were parts used on race cars years ago. They had a purpose back then which you apparently believe still exists today. That purpose was to allow venting of gases from the brake pads. That was when organic pads were used. Todays pads do not generate gas under braking.

The only purpose slotted, drilled or dimpled rotors serves today is looks. I will admit, they do look cool. But they actually hurt performance by reducing the contact area of the pads to the rotors plus reduce the lifespan of the pads and rotors. Again - look it up if you don't believe me.

For normal street driving, there is no mod you can do to your brakes that will significantly reduce your stopping distance. That is because the brake systems on modern cars are able to apply enough brake torque to lock the tires at any legal speed. At that point, the only thing that can reduce braking distance is better brake balance front to rear and, more significantly, better tires. Car manufacturers go to great lengths to properly balance the front to rear bias - something that modders usually don't even consider.

Once you get into racing conditions, there are things you can do to improve performance because heat becomes a major player. But for street use at legal speeds, any car made in the past 10 years will easily be able to stop from 70 MPH with no brake fade. If you do this more than once without letting the brakes cool, some cars brakes will start to fade.

Brake fade has nothing to do with rotors. Brake fade is the result of two things. The most common source of brake fade is the caliper gets hot enough to boil the brake fluid. This creates a gas in the closed system which then forces fluid back into the master cylinder and that gas compresses when you press on the pedal. You can tell that type of fade is happening since the pedal goes soft.

The other type of fade is when the surface of the pad melts. In that case the pedal remains firm but the brakes have no grab to them. If you track your car and drive aggressively, you will likely experience both of these types of fade.

Finally I ask where do you get your information? Perhaps from the people selling these expensive parts? Kind of like the fox watching the hen house don't you think?
 
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