[dmitryk72]

Hello everyone.
Short version:
I own a 2008 Honda Accord Coupe LX-S that was plagued with infamous oil consumption problem, just a lot of folks here, I reported many times and kept receiving a canned response about "1 quart per 1000 miles being normal". Had short-block replaced yesterday through Honda Care, but camshaft bearings were not replaced, despite physical damage observed by a mechanic.

Could you please take a look at pictures of tell me if there is any serious damage?

High resolution pictures:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/47oe9rfvafvfifi/1.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uvdsmudcffmhs6f/2.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2kod7gjzostex2a/3.jpg


Thanks in advance.

Long version:
On 76k miles 3 lights lit up on dash (check engine, TMPS, VSA). Took it to a nearby mechanic who told me that error code "P0341" which may suggest problem with camshaft sensor and/or problem with chain. He then took the lid off the engine and told me that camshafts were physically damaged (pictures attached).

Knowing about recent V6 Accord settlement I contacted Honda customer service. They first denied the existence of the problem, but I later received a call back from Allan who advised me to take the vehicle back to Castle Honda so they could perform tear the engine down (had to pay $500 for it).

After inspection was complete they admitted that there was a problem with engine and chain and agreed to cover short block replacement after "$500 deductible" that I had to cover (diagnostic fee was applied towards deductible).

When I was picking the vehicle up I noticed that according to paperwork camshaft was replaced and no one was there to talk to me (late evening). Next morning I've sent a service manager of the dealership a picture that was taken by my mechanic before repairs started, but he still assured me that scratches observed by a mechanic were just heat marks and no metal was observed in engine oil.

Any feedback is appreciated.

 

[dmitryk72]

Especially here:

 

[RickBlaine]

I am confused by your statements. Could you please clarify?

1) When you FIRST took your car to a "nearby mechanic", was that a Honda mechanic at a dealership?

2) Did THAT mechanic tell you your camshaft was damaged?

3) Your receipt shows that the camshaft itself was replaced, but NOT the camshaft bearings?

4) No metal was "observed" in the oil? Did they send a sample to Blackstone Labs in Indiana or some other oil analysis facility? Or did they "observe" by just eyeballing it?

5) That last photo is a scratch- not a heat mark.

6) Is this Castle Honda in Morton Grove, IL?

7) Are you the original owner? Did you ever let the oil run low?

 

[Mechanic]

^ Rick's q's.

In the interim, wrt yr pics, the wear patterns appear to my eyes to be entirely "normal" -- i.e., what one would see in any undamaged Honda k-series engine if you removed the valve cover. The small nick that you highlighted is not within a contact surface of either the camshaft lobe or the rocker arm roller bearing, and thus of no significance.

Depending on your responses to Nick's questions, there's good reason to think the guys who authorized and did the work should be on your Christmas card list.

 

[dmitryk72]

Hi RickBlaine. Thank for looking into my problem. Here are extra details.

I am confused by your statements. Could you please clarify?

1) When you FIRST took your car to a "nearby mechanic", was that a Honda mechanic at a dealership?

As soon lights came on, I slowly drove to a nearby independent shop to prevent possible further damage from happening.

2) Did THAT mechanic tell you your camshaft was damaged?

Yes, that's what he told me. He also mentioned that my engine looked like it had "double or even triple the miles on it".

3) Your receipt shows that the camshaft itself was replaced, but NOT the camshaft bearings?

Please find my receipt attached. They replaced short block, timing chain, guides, tensioner and VTC actuator. I paid them extra to replace water pump and thermostat.

4) No metal was "observed" in the oil? Did they send a sample to Blackstone Labs in Indiana or some other oil analysis facility? Or did they "observe" by just eyeballing it?

That is exactly right, they just observed it by "eyeballing" it. No oil sample was sent to the lab for analysis.

5) That last photo is a scratch- not a heat mark.

When I showed this picture to Allan from the corporate office he told me that since I'm not a mechanic I'm not qualified to comment on above issue. He also told me that as per service manager (Ron) this part it was examined and deemed to be in acceptable condition. So, I called service manager, but he insisted that this is a heat mark, not a scratch.

6) Is this Castle Honda in Morton Grove, IL?

Yes, it is.

7) Are you the original owner? Did you ever let the oil run low?

Yes, I bought this vehicle brand new back in 2008. There were several occasions when "low oil" indicator lit up, even though maintenance indicator was anywhere between 40 and 60% when the car was still under warranty. That's when I realized that there was a problem and started reporting it to the dealer. They finally did an oil consumption test, told me that everything is fine (1 qt per 1500 miles). However, according to my observation oil loss was happening at faster rate after first 1500 miles.
The problem also got worse over time - last oil change did not even last 3000 miles. I also paid them to replace an o-ring/seal for control valve, which they later blamed for oil loss (warranty was over at that point).


Interestingly, when I came back with loose chain/engine problem I was blamed for it by service manager, because according to the manual I'm supposed to check oil levels every time during fueling. It gets even cooler, he also told me that I was *not* supposed to top it off, but rather bring it back in as per advise given to me. I checked all recent repair records and sure thing, above recommendation was not there. Last 6 months I just started topping it off with 1-1.5 quarts between oil changes.

 

[dmitryk72]

^ Rick's q's.

In the interim, wrt yr pics, the wear patterns appear to my eyes to be entirely "normal" -- i.e., what one would see in any undamaged Honda k-series engine if you removed the valve cover. The small nick that you highlighted is not within a contact surface of either the camshaft lobe or the rocker arm roller bearing, and thus of no significance.

Depending on your responses to Nick's questions, there's good reason to think the guys who authorized and did the work should be on your Christmas card list.

Hello, Mechanic.
That sounds reassuring! All I'm trying is to figure out if I should keep the car for another 3-5 years, or trade it in, while the value is still there. Ending up with thousands of dollars in repairs is somehow not a part of the plan . So, if there is a high probability of engine damage, I'd rather get rid of it. I did change tires and rotors and brakes lately and would really like to keep it though.

I guess I should be happy with what I received, however... I bought this car both for looks and reliability and seeing the engine die at 76k because of manufacturing problems is not something I expected. Not being a mechanic, I relied on maintenance indicator. I know better than that now lol. After all, Honda did admit to problems with 2008-2010 V6 during recent settlement and I would not be surprised if there would be another lawsuit for drive by V4 owners.

I'm definitely not sending a fruit basket next Christmas, but postcard is definitely something to consider .

 

[dmitryk72]

Bump... Anyone?

 

[RickBlaine]

@Dmitry: Nyet, don't sell your car.

Your car experienced what Drew on the 7th Gen forums would say is common if you let the oil run low- you developed a stretched timing chain. The fix is to replace what they did replace, nothing more. The work was done by the Honda dealer so I am sure it was done correctly, and even warrantied.

Please understand that the oil level was repeatedly "low"- leading to a stretched chain. Once you run your oil low, it gets worse and worse. The fact you have a new engine for your 2008 Honda for roughly $500 says a lot of good things.

Despite what your computer tells you, always check your oil level....you learned your lesson and are only out $500.

Now for the camshaft and that independent shop....I would pretty much write that off...Honda admitted that the scratch was there but that it did not affect the rebuild.

Bottom line, check your oil regularly- regardless what your car's computer tells you. Those 4 cylinders can easily go 250,000 miles and more with just basic maintenance.

Don't sell because you think you will have problems, just monitor your oil level and top off as necessary.

 

[mikeyd914]

yeah i have same problem. one time my oil lasted virtually 3 weeks till i checked the dipstick and not even one drop on it. but this was because of me driving like a moron keeping it in 2nd-3rd gear and driving fast. but i ALWAYS check my oil every week just to see whats left on the dipstick and fill it up to max line accordingly

 

[2011LX-S]

go to a better dealership, like Motorwerks in Barrington IL.
They would never say "It's your fault for not checking your oil level". that is just crazy.

 

[HondaTechAV6]

for the record there are no bearings for the camshafts - it's a machined cylinder head.

that mark is a scratch made by a person.

that mark appears to be outside of the rocker arm roller bearing surface and shouldn't affect engine performance. the rest of the cam journals are in normal condition for the mileage.