[Peniole]

Top Gear
August 16, 2006
Gadget turns your car 'green'
Cheaper fuel costs and increased performance is the Holy Grail of motoring.

Well, it looks like the Holy Grail is down in Wiltshire, where a company called Green Fuels says it can make your car run on cheaper fuel while boosting power.

It's not exactly water into wine, but the matchbox-sized gizmo allows your petrol-powered car to run on E85 bio-ethanol, which is cheaper to buy than normal pump petrol and helps the engine give more power.

Called the Fullflex Gold Bi-Fuel Manager, it plugs into a car's ECU electric brain and the fuel injectors and takes a trained mechanic about an hour to fit.

Afterwards, you can run your car on bio-ethanol, normal unleaded or any mix of the two.

The system costs from £450 and is available from Green Fuels.

Now I'd like to see that here and get some more oomph from our Accords, and help the environment as a side effect :lmao:

 

[stiller fan]

i would do it too.... :yes:

 

[Windchimp]

i would do it too.... :yes:

HEY STILLER - what did you do with that KITTYKAT?!?!?! aranoid:


:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

 

[stevencrosbie]

E85 will cause all of your rubber hoses and seals to degrade rapidly. You also get about 15% less power out of the fuel b/c it has less BTUs on engery.....

 

[Windchimp]

E85 will cause all of your rubber hoses and seals to degrade rapidly. You also get about 15% power out of the fuel b/c it has less BTUs on engery.....

...And it does nothing to "help" the environment...the corn based ethanol is nothing but a way for our farmers to rid themselves of excess crop yield. The process is VERY energy inefficient - more energy is used in making the ethanol than is yielded from it. Now sugar based ethanol is a different story, though.

Instead of all this 10% ethanol-diluted gas I am forced to use, e85 and biodiesel people need to wake up and TAKE SOME PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and trade in the Hummer, turn down the thermostat and put on sweater. These stop gap alternative fuels are no solution, and as Steven points out, this cr@p is not what your engine wants.

 

[Conundrum]

Ummm...I know this is 100%+ off topic, but Stiller, can you please atleast get rid of the red letterboxing...seriously it hurts my eyes...

E85 will cause all of your rubber hoses and seals to degrade rapidly. You also get about 15% power out of the fuel b/c it has less BTUs on engery.....

Hence why I wouldn't want to run E85 on my car...long term its just not worth it. Plus if I wanted to spend a bit less on gas I'd just use 87...lol (currently using 89 for better cleaning).

 

[edwilson13185]

...And it does nothing to "help" the environment...the corn based ethanol is nothing but a way for our farmers to rid themselves of excess crop yield. The process is VERY energy inefficient - more energy is used in making the ethanol than is yielded from it. Now sugar based ethanol is a different story, though.

Instead of all this 10% ethanol-diluted gas I am forced to use, e85 and biodiesel people need to wake up and TAKE SOME PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and trade in the Hummer, turn down the thermostat and put on sweater. These stop gap alternative fuels are no solution, and as Steven points out, this cr@p is not what your engine wants.

Corn ethanol isn't worth the tanker it's brought to the station in. Cellulose-based ethanol will be worth it, though, I think. It won't compete with the food supply and shouldn't be as expensive to produce. It's probably worthwhile research, but as you say, the current ethanol requirements are nothing other than political lipservice.

Personal responsibility isn't going to happen, at least not in this country. Telling people to park the pickup truck and drive a Civic is like asking them to give up their firstborn. As much as I don't like paying $3.20+/gal for gasoline, it's going to have to get more expensive to get these things off of the road. This is why I bought a 4-cylinder!

 

[MJL]

Personal responsibility isn't going to happen, at least not in this country. Telling people to park the pickup truck and drive a Civic is like asking them to give up their firstborn. As much as I don't like paying $3.20+/gal for gasoline, it's going to have to get more expensive to get these things off of the road. This is why I bought a 4-cylinder!

I think a pickup and a hummer are two different things. A lot of people I know use their pickups for acutal work and hauling stuff, but hummers are just for people's images and egos. Granted, you can haul stuff in a hummer, but honestly, how many hummers have you seen driving down the road towing a cement mixer or hauling replacement siding sticking out the back. They just aren't economical and I don't tink GM should have ever let the public get their hands on them and left them strictly for the military.

 

[funnyperson1]

I think a pickup and a hummer are two different things. A lot of people I know use their pickups for acutal work and hauling stuff, but hummers are just for people's images and egos. Granted, you can haul stuff in a hummer, but honestly, how many hummers have you seen driving down the road towing a cement mixer or hauling replacement siding sticking out the back. They just aren't economical and I don't tink GM should have ever let the public get their hands on them and left them strictly for the military.

I agree here, pickups are very useful, there really isn't much benefit to owning a Hummer. Yea its big, but its so expensive, that nobody that owns one would ever even take it offroad or haul equipment in one.

Not to mention that fuel economy for midsize SUVs and Pickup trucks aren't all that bad. Most seem to be around 15-18 City, and 20-23 Hwy. Now a Hummer H2 on the other hand gets around 11 MPG Hwy.

While I agree that the Hummer is a ridiculous vehicle that shouldn't be sold, I Don't think it can be blamed for gas issues. Fact is that Hummer sold 23,000 H2 Hummers in 2005 so that is about the same gas usage of about 46,000 Explorers or 80,000 Civics. In 2005 Ford Sold 166,000 Explorers in Six months, and similarly Honda sold 308,000 Civics in 2005.

Basically, however inefficient the Hummers are, their sales numbers are far too low to make a big difference in overall fuel consumption.

Now yes if everyone drove a Civic, there would be a huge drop in fuel consumption in the US, but not everybody's needs would be fulfilled by one. I think what we'll find as fuel prices keep going up (and they will keep going up, if anything the oil companies will ensure this), is that people who don't need a big car will migrate towards smaller cars. It has already started, SUV sales have tanked compared to 2005, and people are already looking for midsize,compact cars, and the subcompact segment actually has some life with Yaris, Fit and others.

 

[stevencrosbie]

On a side note, I love the Yaris Commercials. They are the best around.

I agree. I will never venture to say what people can and cannot buy. If you want a Hummer H2, go buy one. If I here you complain about gas prices, I reserve the right to punch you in the gut....

that's all.

Easy solution. Buy what you can afford to purchase and DRIVE.

 

[Windchimp]

I agree here, pickups are very useful, there really isn't much benefit to owning a Hummer. Yea its big, but its so expensive, that nobody that owns one would ever even take it offroad or haul equipment in one.

Not to mention that fuel economy for midsize SUVs and Pickup trucks aren't all that bad. Most seem to be around 15-18 City, and 20-23 Hwy. Now a Hummer H2 on the other hand gets around 11 MPG Hwy.

I hear ya, but the trouble is not many people will get that EPA mileage in real world driving. For the folks that really need/use a truck, once you load it down you can forget about those mileage estimates. For the posers who use their dually crew cab Hemi Dodge or Ford Expedition as a grocery getter, well let's just say a lot of these drivers very rarely apply a "light touch" to the gas pedal (race ya to the next red light!). I don't want to lay the blame entirely on the people driving them - it's also the automakers manufacting these monsters. Corporate responsiblity and all that stuff. Heck, I can remember when I was a kid noone ever imagined driving around in one of these war wagons...the most you would see would be the occasional Blazer, Bronco or Suburban (of course we still had the venerable 460 in the Country Squire!). Now they're everywhere, burning up more fuel per capita than need be. A possible solution to this quandry could be to offer nothing but diesels in trucks/SUVs, that would help the mileage slightly and moreso would sway alot of these drivers away from the warwagon. Still plenty of torque to tow the boat around on the weekend, but not the ridiculous race car power plant that makes one want to hop on it. The technology is there, it is just not being used properly.

While I agree that the Hummer is a ridiculous vehicle that shouldn't be sold, I Don't think it can be blamed for gas issues. Fact is that Hummer sold 23,000 H2 Hummers in 2005 so that is about the same gas usage of about 46,000 Explorers or 80,000 Civics. In 2005 Ford Sold 166,000 Explorers in Six months, and similarly Honda sold 308,000 Civics in 2005.

Basically, however inefficient the Hummers are, their sales numbers are far too low to make a big difference in overall fuel consumption.

Again I agree, I like to use the "Hummer" as a generic term for these warwagon grocery getting posers.

Now yes if everyone drove a Civic, there would be a huge drop in fuel consumption in the US, but not everybody's needs would be fulfilled by one. I think what we'll find as fuel prices keep going up (and they will keep going up, if anything the oil companies will ensure this), is that people who don't need a big car will migrate towards smaller cars. It has already started, SUV sales have tanked compared to 2005, and people are already looking for midsize,compact cars, and the subcompact segment actually has some life with Yaris, Fit and others.

Gas prices will follow market demand. Although BP shut down their pipeline in Alaska, fuel prices did not spike - in fact they've dropped. A contributing factor was the phony terror "false flag" hitting the aviation industry, reducing fuel demand. Anyway, if less fuel is consumed, the market must make adjustments. My concern is not so much the prices, though - it is more about our overconsumption of nonrenewable resources with no viable alternatives on the horizon. So it's not down to Joe & Jane Q. Public being able to afford gassing up the V-10 3/4 ton grocery getter - all the money in the world won't be able to buy something that's all used up.

 

[SCABADA]

...And it does nothing to "help" the environment...the corn based ethanol is nothing but a way for our farmers to rid themselves of excess crop yield. The process is VERY energy inefficient - more energy is used in making the ethanol than is yielded from it. Now sugar based ethanol is a different story, though.

Instead of all this 10% ethanol-diluted gas I am forced to use, e85 and biodiesel people need to wake up and TAKE SOME PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and trade in the Hummer, turn down the thermostat and put on sweater. These stop gap alternative fuels are no solution, and as Steven points out, this cr@p is not what your engine wants.

I'm not trying to call bs - I just find this subject interesting and would appreciate some kind of scientific references about how E85 and Biodiesel use more energy to produce than what is yielded from it.

I know a lot of people into Biodisel and none of them drive Hummers. Most drive VW's and a few old Mercedes. The small VW's are 50mpg vehicles. Jetta wagons are the most sought after because you have a ton of space and people have gotten more than 50mpg with that 1.9 TDI.

Also I'm not sure that's correct about you get less HP out of E85 at least in the GM Chrysler and Ford vehicles that are actually set up to run on it. It's much higher octane. You do get worse MPG but you get more power.

 

[stevencrosbie]

E85 contains 73% of BTUs as gasoline on arithmetic basis

E85=83,263 BTUs
gasoline=114,000 BTUs

Proof is Here and Many Other Places

E85 is not the solution. Octane has nothing to do w/ HP at all. I was wrong earlier as well. Looks like E85 produces about 27% less power than regular fuel.

Biodiesel.

Lets See,

#2 Diesel has 140,000 BTUs
Biodiel has 130,000

Proof is here

There is less loss w/ biodiesel. Keep in mind diesel engines were first designed to use Vegatable oil :yes:

Read up on the E85. It takes much more energy to produce than regular fuel. Its simply not the solution. Once again, the news media is spreading piss poor information to the masses who don't know to do extra research. Biodiesel is a fad that "BioWilly" has America on. Its a better solution, but not a real one either. Keep in mind that the B100 is not compatable w/ most diesel engines, only B20 is. It will also eat your seals and hoses.

In no way do I mean to insult anyone besides the media in this post. I'm tired of their bias on TV and I wish people to get all of the information before they are swayed. Best of luck to those doing more research.

 

[funnyperson1]

E85 contains 73% of BTUs as gasoline on arithmetic basis

E85=83,263 BTUs
gasoline=114,000 BTUs

Proof is Here and Many Other Places

E85 is not the solution. Octane has nothing to do w/ HP at all. I was wrong earlier as well. Looks like E85 produces about 27% less power than regular fuel.

Biodiesel.

Lets See,

#2 Diesel has 140,000 BTUs
Biodiel has 130,000

Proof is here

There is less loss w/ biodiesel. Keep in mind diesel engines were first designed to use Vegatable oil :yes:

Read up on the E85. It takes much more energy to produce than regular fuel. Its simply not the solution. Once again, the news media is spreading piss poor information to the masses who don't know to do extra research. Biodiesel is a fad that "BioWilly" has America on. Its a better solution, but not a real one either. Keep in mind that the B100 is not compatable w/ most diesel engines, only B20 is. It will also eat your seals and hoses.

In no way do I mean to insult anyone besides the media in this post. I'm tired of their bias on TV and I wish people to get all of the information before they are swayed. Best of luck to those doing more research.

Well the positive thing about biodiesel is that unlike E85, it doesn't take more energy to make than it provides. According to the pdf you linked, for every BTU put into the manufacturing process, 3.3 BTUs are produced.

Biodiesel is not a universal solution, but does have a lot of applications for farming, and perhaps 18 wheelers and buses.

From the information you have provided though, it does seem like Ethanol is a weak alternative.

Imho, I think eventually we will have electric motors as a standard. Battery technology advances slowly, but it is advancing. Fuel cells are a promising technology.

Also, I think we will see more vehicles become hybrids. Vehicles like the Ford Escape and Lexus RX are great because they save gas without sacrificing cargo space.

 

[SCABADA]

E85 contains 73% of BTUs as gasoline on arithmetic basis

E85=83,263 BTUs
gasoline=114,000 BTUs

Proof is Here and Many Other Places

E85 is not the solution. Octane has nothing to do w/ HP at all. I was wrong earlier as well. Looks like E85 produces about 27% less power than regular fuel.

Biodiesel.

Lets See,

#2 Diesel has 140,000 BTUs
Biodiel has 130,000

Proof is here

There is less loss w/ biodiesel. Keep in mind diesel engines were first designed to use Vegatable oil :yes:

Read up on the E85. It takes much more energy to produce than regular fuel. Its simply not the solution. Once again, the news media is spreading piss poor information to the masses who don't know to do extra research. Biodiesel is a fad that "BioWilly" has America on. Its a better solution, but not a real one either. Keep in mind that the B100 is not compatable w/ most diesel engines, only B20 is. It will also eat your seals and hoses.

In no way do I mean to insult anyone besides the media in this post. I'm tired of their bias on TV and I wish people to get all of the information before they are swayed. Best of luck to those doing more research.

Thanks for the additional info. I couldn't get either link to work but I think at least the first one is the filters here at work. Look forward to reading more at home. As far as the HP increase I'll have to go find the car magazine article I read regarding it. If I can find it I'll scan it and post it. It wasn't an article that was very positive about E85 Ethanol. One thing I definately remember is that on the flex fuel vehicles set up to run E85 they had better performance running E85 but worse MPG.

 

[stevencrosbie]

I'm gonna do more research too. I agree. I think hybrids are a great stepping stone to new technologies. I am awaiting for someone to make a diesel hybrid. That will really increase mileage.

 

[stiller fan]

maybe honda will be the first.... :wave:

 

[Windchimp]

I'm not trying to call bs - I just find this subject interesting and would appreciate some kind of scientific references about how E85 and Biodiesel use more energy to produce than what is yielded from it.

Most of my limited knowledge is gleaned from my peers in the aviation and electronics world...ya know - the scientist from Boeing, the physicist from Raytheon...mostly parlor talk over a meal. However, my statement is grounded in research that folks have published in the trade rags I read on the plane. I know of a couple of places on the web with some credibility - here is one fella's blog which starts to go into the calculations:
http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/2006/05/e85-spinning-our-wheels.html
You can also check the discussion which ensued from this paper here:
http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/5/23/23846/0807

There are issues that are missed in these equations however. Most of these discussion cover the refining process, some take into account the growing and harvesting of the grain. Also to be considered is distribution of the ethanol, which can only be done by tank (rail or truck). Also missing is the additional resources required to finally mix the ethanol with the gas. Finally, the cost of new distribution (pumping) equipment for the E85 fuel.

The best case scenario for corn based ethanol is a break-even with petroleum based fuel. So you're using petro the make etho - where's the advantage?

Like you, this stuff interests me...keeps my one functioning brain cell busy. :nuts:

Oh, and I don't mind being called on something...it's the way we all learn, like even that one time when I was wrong aranoid: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

 

[SCABADA]

E85 contains 73% of BTUs as gasoline on arithmetic basis

E85=83,263 BTUs
gasoline=114,000 BTUs

Proof is Here and Many Other Places

E85 is not the solution. Octane has nothing to do w/ HP at all. I was wrong earlier as well. Looks like E85 produces about 27% less power than regular fuel.

Can't get that first link to work still but I can now for the second one. Thanks good info.

Sorry to go off on a tangent but I'm confused and I wish I could find that article I read before in regards to their claims of increased HP and decreased mpg with flex fuel vehicles run on ethanol. What you're saying about less energy content per galon makes sense and is consistent with what that article said. I know if I put 91 octane in an engine tuned for regular 87 (like more 4 cyl Honda) I'm most likely wasting energy and money. However I thought cars that are tuned to run differently on higher octane fuel would produce more power when the sensors detected the higher octane. I've actually read on this forum that this is actually the case with the Accord V6 when run with 91.

 

[SCABADA]

Most of my limited knowledge is gleaned from my peers in the aviation and electronics world...ya know - the scientist from Boeing, the physicist from Raytheon...mostly parlor talk over a meal. However, my statement is grounded in research that folks have published in the trade rags I read on the plane. I know of a couple of places on the web with some credibility - here is one fella's blog which starts to go into the calculations:
http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/2006/05/e85-spinning-our-wheels.html
You can also check the discussion which ensued from this paper here:
http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/5/23/23846/0807

There are issues that are missed in these equations however. Most of these discussion cover the refining process, some take into account the growing and harvesting of the grain. Also to be considered is distribution of the ethanol, which can only be done by tank (rail or truck). Also missing is the additional resources required to finally mix the ethanol with the gas. Finally, the cost of new distribution (pumping) equipment for the E85 fuel.

The best case scenario for corn based ethanol is a break-even with petroleum based fuel. So you're using petro the make etho - where's the advantage?

Like you, this stuff interests me...keeps my one functioning brain cell busy. :nuts:

Oh, and I don't mind being called on something...it's the way we all learn, like even that one time when I was wrong aranoid: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Interesting stuff. According to this site http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/energy.php
the energy yielded exceeds whats needed for production but I'm thinking they have an agenda and they don't really back up that statement with facts. We consume a lot more oil than brazil, and produce a lot less sugarcane than Brazil so I don't think we'll have their kind of success story. Maybe biomass can help I don't know. Considering how much oil the U.S. consumes the idea of corn based ethanol being the solution to all our energy problems seems like a far fetched unlikely dream. I'm of the opinion though that every little bit helps. All of the smaller ways that people burn less fossil fuels - weather it be downsizing to smaller vehicles when possible, buying hybrids, TDI's, driving less all add up. None of these solutions is perfect and practical for all people and all have downsides.

As far as the product this thread is about - the matchbox sized gizmo - this doesn't sound to well planned out. Actual production flex fuel vehicles have other changes besides their ECU programming. Oops it looks like they forgot you'd need different fuel tank, lines and injectors. Don't think I'll use this on my gizmo on my cars.