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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just bought a MSM Touring Accord Hybrid. I only had it a few days and loving it so far. It seems a great deal quicker than I thought. I was torn between a Sport 2.0T, a 2.0T Touring that is a few months from coming and the Hybrid I got. This is my first Hybrid and when I drove to turbo it did not seem too much faster to me to lose the Touring features and the incoming (and only available for the foreseeable future) 2.0T Touring was not a color I wanted. I chose the Hybrid because it was the right combination of looks and features and felt plenty quick. Plus I like the idea of 40+ mpg. Traded in a Sonata N line that was fast but just did not feel like it was for me.

I guess my question is how has the performance been for you guys so far with yours? Is it quick enough to enjoy when you want to have some fun? Do you ever wish you got a 2.0T instead? Was I mistaken when the Hybrid felt quick and the 2.0t, while faster, did not feel THAT much faster? Thanks for any and all input.
 

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The Shadow II
2021 HAH Touring in MSM
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I had the 2.0T. It was too much on city streets with all the concerns that go with traffic, people and random LEO on every other corner with a quota to meet.

(no, LEO never got me, but that was only because I was careful, got lucky and backdown from 70 in the school zone before he saw me)

I take my hybrid out in the country from time to time and go just as fast as I did with Turbo on winding country lanes or two lane State roads, within the limits of the suspension, braking etc, NOT the amount of power under the hood.

There is an uphill two lane entrance ramp onto the Interstate this kind of a play zone. The Hybrid didn't keep up with an AMG pulling 0 to excessive. But then Turbo couldn't either. And recently I got passed by a Charger with a lightbar on the entrance ramp that was trying to prove something to the world.

If I am loosing those battles, I can't really worry about it.

In real world driving I haven't had to circle the block so speak pulling onto the Interstate from the cloverleaf. I do notice that I don't top out as fast as I did with the Turbo, but who really needs to be doing 90 trying to merge?

So yeah, it is good enough.
 

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2020 Accord Sport 1.5T
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I dont own a hybrid but imo, the hybrid is a good middle ground between 1.5 and 2.0. Has 212 hp and 232 lb ft and im guessing that torque comes on nice and early too in the hybrid. So as far as power difference goes between 2.0T and the hybrid, the 2.0T will certainly feel faster but it makes sense that you wouldn’t be missing it THAT much because the hybrid still makes well over 200 HP and torque.

Its also all dependent also on what you’re looking for in a car, some people just have to have the most powerful engine from factory because thats what they want and they would feel the power difference power difference between hybrid and 2.0t more than your average joe. The hybrid also does 0-60 in about the mid to high 6’s range which again is by no means slow. So bottom line, if you’re asking if the car has enough power to get out of its own way and have a little fun, i’d say so. But again, everyone has a different definition of “fun”. You clearly bought the car because you liked the way it drove so i’d say you made the right choice, enjoy those MPG’s too!
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the input guys. It has helped alot. It's crazy how the reviews can be all over the place. Some praise the Hybrid as the best in its class and for being an excellent car, then some say it feels way less powerful than the 2.0t. That seems to be the one engine choice that hardly ever gets negative feedback. I think the Accord is the best in its class at what it does in each engine choice. I really just did not want to wait half a year or more for a 2.0T and maybe even longer for the right color combination due to inventory shortage. Especially not when the Hybrid I got is exactly the combination I was originally wanted it just happens to be a Hybrid version. I just needed some feedback as this is the first Hybrid I ever had.
 

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2020 Accord Hybrid EX-L
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I should note that the max output of hybrid is 182 hp of that driving motor, while that quoted 212 hp is somewhat misleading.

Second thing, this 182 hp is further split into 143 hp of the 2.0NA motor and somewhere around 40-60 hp of the battery.

Here’s the thing. The battery is really small that it wouldn’t allow any more than 50 seconds of full power output before depleting itself. If you’re flooring quite often then the battery can find it difficult to charge back, especially on highway. What is leftover? Only 143 hp of the engine max power, and it suffers further from double energy conversion (first to electricity, then to drive the axle).

Still, in most cases Honda has engineered (hidden) this weakness so well that you don’t normally feel it, only except on highway above 70 mph.

Now you look back at 1.5T: it is ensured to give you 192 hp max power all the time, so don’t race with 1.5T accord on highway! You will lose within 1 min. The hybrid is even less powerful than old 2.4NA on highway.
 

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I enjoy driving my 2021 Hybrid Touring. No complaints about the performance. It's got good acceleration off the line in Sport mode. On the highway I normally set the cruise control so I don't miss anything from driving a gas engine car.
 

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I should note that the max output of hybrid is 182 hp of that driving motor, while that quoted 212 hp is somewhat misleading.
Apparently it is the power rating published for all cars that is misleading. You seem to think it means something that it doesn't. The "quoted 212 HP" is an approximation that means the exact same thing that the "quoted 192 HP" means to some other Accords.

And that is the SAE net horsepower of the engine, not the car. It is measured at the crankshaft, not the wheels. It gets apportioned to every device that needs power in the car. Steering, brakes, alternator, A/C, etc. Much gets lost in the transmission. There is no easy formula, but common estimates say that only 85% can reach the wheels. So that rating of 192 HP means that only 192*0.85=163 HP propels the car.

There is nothing in the HAH that limits it to 212 HP. The 181 HP motor is essentially what you can get "at the wheel," the same place where 163 HP is what you get from the 1.5L. If it is running at 5500 rpm, that is. Where the 212 HP number comes from, is that it is what the hybrid system would have to produce to power the 181 HP motor. That is, 212*0.85=181 HP. So not only is it not misleading, it is the number that compares directly to the power advertised for every gas car sold in America.

Check the specs of every iMMD hybrid Honda makes. You will find that (Total System Power)*0.85=(Traction Motor Power).
 

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Apparently it is the power rating published for all cars that is misleading. You seem to think it means something that it doesn't. The "quoted 212 HP" is an approximation that means the exact same thing that the "quoted 192 HP" means to some other Accords.

And that is the SAE net horsepower of the engine, not the car. It is measured at the crankshaft, not the wheels. It gets apportioned to every device that needs power in the car. Steering, brakes, alternator, A/C, etc. Much gets lost in the transmission. There is no easy formula, but common estimates say that only 85% can reach the wheels. So that rating of 192 HP means that only 192*0.85=163 HP propels the car.

There is nothing in the HAH that limits it to 212 HP. The 181 HP motor is essentially what you can get "at the wheel," the same place where 163 HP is what you get from the 1.5L. If it is running at 5500 rpm, that is. Where the 212 HP number comes from, is that it is what the hybrid system would have to produce to power the 181 HP motor. That is, 212*0.85=181 HP. So not only is it not misleading, it is the number that compares directly to the power advertised for every gas car sold in America.

Check the specs of every iMMD hybrid Honda makes. You will find that (Total System Power)*0.85=(Traction Motor Power).
I understand the logics behind it, but I don’t like how Honda makes things unclear. The problem is, you claimed a 85% number that is never officially validated by Honda, although it is self-explanatory.

For example, you look at BMW 330e, which is a PHEV.
Font Number Parallel

It says clearly that total 288hp is the numerical addition of 181hp engine and 107hp motor.

Has anyone actually dyno-tested these hybrid vehicles? Really curious what on-wheel power output is.
 

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I understand the logics behind it, but I don’t like how Honda makes things unclear.
No, you don't seem to understand the logic, as evidenced by the fact that you continue to call it unclear. It is so clear as to almost be transparent. but you don't want to accept the meaning.
  • 212 HP is the maximum amount of (electrical) power that Honda claims the system can produce. Not all goes to propelling the car. Other draws on this power include:
    • Power steering and brakes.
    • Air Conditioning
    • Charging the HV battery.
    • Losses in transmission (I'm not saying "in the transmission," I mean in the process of getting it to the wheels).
  • This compares with perfect clarity (sorry, no pun intended) to the power rating of a conventional gas car.
  • Tha rating is SAE Net, the (mechanical) power produced by the engine. Not all goes to propelling the car. Other draws on this power include:
    • Power steering and brakes.
    • Air Conditioning.
    • Alternator
    • Losses in transmission (means the same thing, but this time it is mostly in the transmission).
    • Does this sound familiar?
  • It is estimated that 85% of SAE Net can propel the wheels. But this is just an estimate - nobody knows for sure.
  • But for these hybrids, Honda gives you a more useful, and clearer, piece of information than you can get for just about any other car. 181 HP can be applied to the wheels of the HAH.
    • This is the only power number that has direct meaning to you, the driver.
    • No comparable number is available for any other car, including the BMW 330e. Because they can't know it. They estimate it by the 85% rule.
    • SAE standard J1349 was established so that HP ratings were consistent and directly comparable. Before that, each manufacturer would use the method that put their their product in the best light.
  • The BMW 330e is apparently a parallel hybrid. Its ICE horsepower is subject to that 85% rule. Maybe - it isn't clear how power apportionment is achieved. The motor's power is not.
    • It is unclear if they can both be operating at rpms where power can be max at the same time.
    • Simply adding them is not the correct way to assess power.
Has anyone actually dyno-tested these hybrid vehicles? Really curious what on-wheel power output is.
No. But for the Accord, it is 181 HP, minus whatever loss there is in the differential. You won't get a better number for any other car without that dyno.
 

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No, you don't seem to understand the logic, as evidenced by the fact that you continue to call it unclear. It is so clear as to almost be transparent. but you don't want to accept the meaning.
  • 212 HP is the maximum amount of (electrical) power that Honda claims the system can produce. Not all goes to propelling the car. Other draws on this power include:
    • Power steering and brakes.
    • Air Conditioning
    • Charging the HV battery.
    • Losses in transmission (I'm not saying "in the transmission," I mean in the process of getting it to the wheels).
  • This compares with perfect clarity (sorry, no pun intended) to the power rating of a conventional gas car.
  • Tha rating is SAE Net, the (mechanical) power produced by the engine. Not all goes to propelling the car. Other draws on this power include:
    • Power steering and brakes.
    • Air Conditioning.
    • Alternator
    • Losses in transmission (means the same thing, but this time it is mostly in the transmission).
    • Does this sound familiar?
  • It is estimated that 85% of SAE Net can propel the wheels. But this is just an estimate - nobody knows for sure.
  • But for these hybrids, Honda gives you a more useful, and clearer, piece of information than you can get for just about any other car. 181 HP can be applied to the wheels of the HAH.
    • This is the only power number that has direct meaning to you, the driver.
    • No comparable number is available for any other car, including the BMW 330e. Because they can't know it. They estimate it by the 85% rule.
    • SAE standard J1349 was established so that HP ratings were consistent and directly comparable. Before that, each manufacturer would use the method that put their their product in the best light.
  • The BMW 330e is apparently a parallel hybrid. Its ICE horsepower is subject to that 85% rule. Maybe - it isn't clear how power apportionment is achieved. The motor's power is not.
    • It is unclear if they can both be operating at rpms where power can be max at the same time.
    • Simply adding them is not the correct way to assess power.

No. But for the Accord, it is 181 HP, minus whatever loss there is in the differential. You won't get a better number for any other car without that dyno.
I still have one question following your reasoning.

If you claim the 181hp, which is the max hp rating of Accord hybrid drive motor, is also the wheel power that actually does the work, why do you set a double standard for BMW 330e?

Following your way, do you agree that the BMW 330e received actual wheel power of (0.85 * 181hp engine) + 107hp motor, which is 261 hp? Instead, you seem to indicate it should be 0.85 *(total 288hp is the numerical addition of 181hp engine and 107hp motor), which is 245hp.
Well you can self-explain that the electric motor in BMW 330e drives through 8AT so it must apply the 0.85 factor.

That’s fine, we move to Volvo’s T8 PHEV models. These models have a 313hp engine powering only front axle via 8AT gearbox; plus, a 87hp electric motor driving only the rear axle. Following your way, do you agree that the Volvo T8 system received actual wheel power of (0.85 * 313hp engine) + 87hp motor, which is 353 hp?
 

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If you claim the 181hp, which is the max hp rating of Accord hybrid drive motor, is also the wheel power that actually does the work, why do you set a double standard for BMW 330e?
I don't. In fact, that's what I'm trying to avoid doing.

Let's me try to explain a few details that are easy to overlook:.
  • An internal combustion engine produces power by burning gasoline.
    • Gasoline is not power, it is stored energy.
    • Power is not a physical substance, it is the rate at which energy flows.
    • So the rate at which gas is burned, and the efficiency of the engine, determine power.
  • The SAE Net HP rating of a conventional car is the measured power its engine can produce.
  • A battery also produces power, by fiddling with ions.
  • The 212 HP "Total System Power" is an estimate of the electrical power that can be produced by the battery and the ICE-driven generator working together.
  • Take note that I have not mentioned a motor here. It doesn't belong here, because it doesn't produce power.
But power gets used by many devices in a car, and some gets lost moving it around. We are not interested in the power that can be produced, we are interested in the power that reaches the wheels.
  • An electric motor converts power produced elsewhere from one form to another.
  • What that means, is that its role in these calculations is the same as that of a transmission in a conventional car. Some form of power that has already been produced is pushed in one end, and the mechanical power we are interested in is pushed out the other.
  • In the HAH, the traction motor is at the end of the drivetrain. What gets pushed in is what is left after peripherals take their share. Its maximum is 181 electrical horsepower. What comes out is a little less (it is up to 96% efficient), and some gets lost in the differential.
But what we want to know, power at the wheels. Not power produced. The convention is to publish power produced because how it is measured can be regulated.
  • In a conventional gas car, the published power actually measured on a test bed under well-controlled conditions. Then you have to estimate the wheel power by the 85% rule.
    • This assumes you know the 85% rule.
    • Too many people think it is wheel power.
  • In a Honda iMMD hybrid, it is the 181 HP "power converter" at the end of the drivetrain that is actually measured on a test bed. We don't really know how much power is produced in the HAH, but for comparison purposes Honda uses that same 85% rule to give you an estimate.
    • So the same 85% rule is used to relate produced power and wheel power.
    • The difference is, that in a conventional car this rule adds uncertainty about the wheel power, while in the HAH it removes that uncertainty.
  • The BMW calculation is a mish-mosh. The ICE power is what is produced, while the motor power is what can be converted, so it is close to an apples-oranges comparison to say they mean the same thing
    • The powers combine just after the point where the ICE's power was measured, but what should be added to it is (motor efficiency)*(motor power). So that's one thing they do wrong.
    • If they had included efficiency, the sum might be equivalent to the SAE Net in a conventional car, or the total system power in the HAH.
    • But I don't know where peripherals draw power, or if the 85% rule should be modified for higher power.
The Volvo method is completely different, adding a entirely new level of complexity.
 

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Apparently it is the power rating published for all cars that is misleading. You seem to think it means something that it doesn't. The "quoted 212 HP" is an approximation that means the exact same thing that the "quoted 192 HP" means to some other Accords.

And that is the SAE net horsepower of the engine, not the car. It is measured at the crankshaft, not the wheels. It gets apportioned to every device that needs power in the car. Steering, brakes, alternator, A/C, etc. Much gets lost in the transmission. There is no easy formula, but common estimates say that only 85% can reach the wheels. So that rating of 192 HP means that only 192*0.85=163 HP propels the car.

There is nothing in the HAH that limits it to 212 HP. The 181 HP motor is essentially what you can get "at the wheel," the same place where 163 HP is what you get from the 1.5L. If it is running at 5500 rpm, that is. Where the 212 HP number comes from, is that it is what the hybrid system would have to produce to power the 181 HP motor. That is, 212*0.85=181 HP. So not only is it not misleading, it is the number that compares directly to the power advertised for every gas car sold in America.

Check the specs of every iMMD hybrid Honda makes. You will find that (Total System Power)*0.85=(Traction Motor Power).
I would have to suggest checking out the Hondata Dyno info and videos for accurate HP & Torque numbers. It appears Honda typically "Under-rates" its HP/TQ numbers "At the Wheels"... At least for my 2018 turbo 2.0T base trim (265 HP and 300TQ) without FlashPro software upgrade !!

see the below link...

 

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I would have to suggest checking out the Hondata Dyno info and videos for accurate HP & Torque numbers. It appears Honda typically "Under-rates" its HP/TQ numbers "At the Wheels"... At least for my 2018 turbo 2.0T base trim (265 HP and 300TQ) without FlashPro software upgrade !!

see the below link...

Yeah unfortunately nobody has ever dyno-tested a hybrid, maybe this never sounds cool lol.

I called a local dyno/tubing shop, and the quoted price is $200 for 3 tests. This is a bit too high but I shall keep it in mind. Maybe I will give it a try after graduation.
 

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Coming from a 5-Series Bimmer E61 with an even 300 horses, I was undecided between the Hybrid and the 2.0t. Touring trim was a given. I ended up opting for the Hybrid. Almost three years and 43k miles later, I would do it again without a second of hesitation. The subjective feeling belies the nominally lower HP figure, irrespectively of how you calculate it. What matters is the way it pulls off the line (I have had people ask whether it is an electric car!) and in everyday driving overall. I rarely miss the horses the Accord has fewer than the Bimmer, and I certainly don't miss the frequent, costly repairs (holy cow!) and the lousy gas mileage (21 mpg was stellar).

In the twisties, switching to Sport makes the car noticeably more responsive right away, and it often puts a smile on my face. My 2019 still runs on the original 17" Michelin Energy Saver tires, which are at the end of their life now. I was very positively surprised! Except when a pothole destroyed a tire in the first year, and I learned how pricey they are. A set of Pilot Sport 4 AS is in the garage already and will go on very soon. I am looking forward to see how grip and handling compare to the Energy Savers. If experience with version 2 and 3 of those tires is anything to go by, the performance will be stellar. I wonder how the gas mileage is going to change. Stay tuned!
 

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Ive had mine for about five months now. I still love it. I didn’t test drive a 2.0T but I like my Hybrid much more than the EX-L (I think that’s what it was) with the 1.5T I test drove the same day. Smooth power from a standstill and great handling makes it a pleasure to drive. I’m averaging 44 mpg over the 6000 or so miles I’ve put on it. A 2000 mile high speed trip lowered my average otherwise it would be better. The heavy 19” wheels are a detractor to mpg but they look so good I don’t care!
 
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