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· 2018 HAH Touring
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Hope it works out. take some time. I live in the sunbelt so I don't know snow driving, but I can see why people want all wheel drive. Many thought Honda would add it since most others in the segment offer it. But I think Honda wants to keep things simpler and reliable as the Accord has always been. and most people would get a crossover for that..
 

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Hope it works out. take some time. I live in the sunbelt so I don't know snow driving, but I can see why people want all wheel drive. Many thought Honda would add it since most others in the segment offer it. But I think Honda wants to keep things simpler and reliable as the Accord has always been. and most people would get a crossover for that..
Will do!
 

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Accelerating more rapidly to desired speed increased MPGs in my experience.
Time to pull out my old 10G plots. I know there are minor updates in 11G, but the basic ideas are the same. This is the efficiency map for my 2018 HAH engine:
Colorfulness Rectangle Slope Font Parallel



There is a lot going on here, so let me explain. Engine speed and torque should be self explanatory. Since RPM*TORQUE=POWER, we can determine the power being generated at any point here. Which is the more important number. It is labeled on the right side in horsepower, and follows the gray curves thru the plot. (Sorry for the mixed systems of measurement.)

The colors in the center indicate how much gas is used to make that power. The best is 208.1 grams for each kiloWatt-hour, which is 40.6% efficiency. It happens at 2000 RPM (or 54 mph in Engine Drive) and 34 HP. This is where we would like the engine to operate all the time. The blue line represents the best efficiency at each RPM value.

The disadvantage of gasoline cars is that, for the car to have enough power for acceleration, this "sweet spot" has to be in between the power needed to maintain speed on a flat road, and the power needed for acceleration. Cruising power is shown by the black dotted line, for the gear ratio we have in Engine Drive. A conventional car, with a shiftable transmission, would move that line right or left so that it crosses the blue line near the power requirement.

And that's the problem. To cruise at 45 mph, the black line says that our car needs a little under 10 HP. That crosses the blue line (the last blue dot on the left) at about 230 g/kWh, or 35% efficiency. In a gas-only car, this would be lower since the engine has to be bigger. It would operate at about 30% efficiency. I'll return to this number.

But in our hybrid, the system will move along the blue line to one of the purple dots, as indicated by the yellow arrow. The extra power generated will be used to charge the battery. This will be used later, either in EV Drive or to move back to the purple dots (from either the right-side blue dots of the higher yellow dots). That will also improve efficiency. The down-side, is that using the battery to save, and recover, this extra energy has maybe a 25% loss. So, while the power you use directly is 40% efficient, the power you use indirectly is 30% efficient. I've gone on too long, but the yellow dots do something similar in Engine Drive.

And this finally gets to your implies question. When accelerating, the absolute best thing to do is to accelerate at a rate where you are neither charging, or discharging, the battery. This way, you get it all at 40% efficiency, and none at 30%. I've never tried to watch that, but my guess is that you come close to it with what you describe. But it can only apply easily at the slower ranges of speed.

And yes use regen paddles if you care about efficiency - brakes do some regen but i believe less than paddles.Hope you see improvements!
They do the same thing. When you press the brake pedal, the computer uses what is called "blended braking." It will apply as much regen braking as is both possible and safe, then add friction braking. If you use just the paddles, the system relies on you to determine when to add the friction brakes. You can train yourself for how much room is needed to slow down most efficiently with the paddles; but once you master that, the pedals are just as efficient. (I really do feel like Dr. Seuss when I talks about pressing pedals vs. pulling paddles.)

It sounds to me like you're just doing the "pulse and glide" technique which will give you better fuel efficiency in a hybrid. It's not very good for people around you though as you're constantly speeding up to go over the speed limit, then coasting down under the speed limit, and repeating.
Pulse-and-glide is essentially doing the same thing as moving the dots around as I described above. The exception is that our hybrid, unllike some others, does not have to speed up and slow down to accomplish it.
 

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Good lord. That is quite the detailed explanation. Why does hybrid system do worse on highway than city driving?
The better question is "Why do non-hybrids do better on highway than city driving, when less power is needed to accelerate and overcome drag in the city?"

Two reasons:
  1. There is less stopping and starting on the highway.
  2. Highway cruising operates much closer to the "sett spot" than city cruising.
Since a hybrid takes advantage of both of these factors, it gains less on the highway than in the city. But it still gains in both. Comparing the 1.5L Turbo Accord to the base Hybrid:
  • City mileage improves from 29 mpg to 51 mpg.
  • Highway mileage improves form 37 mpg to 44 mpg.
Of course, if Honda hadn't mucked with the system to please the people who want to hear shifts, it would probably get 50 mpg on the highway. But I can't prove that.
 

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I guess im just bitter cause the GM of the dealership wasnt knowledgeable at all and actually told me that the epa listings in window sticker were bare minimum and i would blow those numbers away. But then again, he also dosnt know why the sport hybrid sticker said 51/45 and my touring only had 41/44. I went home and researched and it was cause of the 17 inch rims instead of the 19s on the touring. And dont get me started on that cause he said the all season tires and 19’s would be fine in the snow and everywhere i read it says the michelins are a disaster waiting to happen so i should put snow tires on the 19’s at a bare minimum or better yet buy 17’s and snow tires for winter. All this is a hassle to me that i was not prepared for. Lesson learned, do your research. I just got enamored with over 40 mpg when my durango was ave 17 tops. Next time i will not compromise on the AWD. I could have gotten the 2023 CRV Sport Touring Hybrid for the exact same price with AWD and a heater steering wheel and no need to worry about tires. Hell i never even factored in batteries depleting quicker in cold weather and i live in central pa and for at least four months we are at or below 32. Im a dumb ass. Lol
 

· 2018 HAH Touring
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265 Posts
If you know the GM maybe they will allow a trade (plus more cash probably). but the CRV is a lot more popular and in demand but just as hard to get as a new Accord. I'm not ready to switch out but I may in a year or so for another certified Touring...
 

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If you know the GM maybe they will allow a trade (plus more cash probably). but the CRV is a lot more popular and in demand but just as hard to get as a new Accord. I'm not ready to switch out but I may in a year or so for another certified Touring...
I was lucky enough to be there the day they got their only accord touring hybrid and bought it that day. Today they got one crv sport touring hybrid in. Its a vibrant blue. Its not too shabby. I only have 190 miles on the accord but will not eat 15% on trading it back in. I will see what he says on monday. But if i was gonna have to pay 1500-2k for second set of wheels for winter maybe he would only need that money down plus another thousand. I would be ok with that. I dont even think the bank paperwork cleared yet!
 

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2014 Accord EX, 2023 Accord Touring, 2022 Telluride
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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Time to pull out my old 10G plots. I know there are minor updates in 11G, but the basic ideas are the same. This is the efficiency map for my 2018 HAH engine:
View attachment 548369


There is a lot going on here, so let me explain. Engine speed and torque should be self explanatory. Since RPM*TORQUE=POWER, we can determine the power being generated at any point here. Which is the more important number. It is labeled on the right side in horsepower, and follows the gray curves thru the plot. (Sorry for the mixed systems of measurement.)

The colors in the center indicate how much gas is used to make that power. The best is 208.1 grams for each kiloWatt-hour, which is 40.6% efficiency. It happens at 2000 RPM (or 54 mph in Engine Drive) and 34 HP. This is where we would like the engine to operate all the time. The blue line represents the best efficiency at each RPM value.

The disadvantage of gasoline cars is that, for the car to have enough power for acceleration, this "sweet spot" has to be in between the power needed to maintain speed on a flat road, and the power needed for acceleration. Cruising power is shown by the black dotted line, for the gear ratio we have in Engine Drive. A conventional car, with a shiftable transmission, would move that line right or left so that it crosses the blue line near the power requirement.

And that's the problem. To cruise at 45 mph, the black line says that our car needs a little under 10 HP. That crosses the blue line (the last blue dot on the left) at about 230 g/kWh, or 35% efficiency. In a gas-only car, this would be lower since the engine has to be bigger. It would operate at about 30% efficiency. I'll return to this number.

But in our hybrid, the system will move along the blue line to one of the purple dots, as indicated by the yellow arrow. The extra power generated will be used to charge the battery. This will be used later, either in EV Drive or to move back to the purple dots (from either the right-side blue dots of the higher yellow dots). That will also improve efficiency. The down-side, is that using the battery to save, and recover, this extra energy has maybe a 25% loss. So, while the power you use directly is 40% efficient, the power you use indirectly is 30% efficient. I've gone on too long, but the yellow dots do something similar in Engine Drive.

And this finally gets to your implies question. When accelerating, the absolute best thing to do is to accelerate at a rate where you are neither charging, or discharging, the battery. This way, you get it all at 40% efficiency, and none at 30%. I've never tried to watch that, but my guess is that you come close to it with what you describe. But it can only apply easily at the slower ranges of speed.


They do the same thing. When you press the brake pedal, the computer uses what is called "blended braking." It will apply as much regen braking as is both possible and safe, then add friction braking. If you use just the paddles, the system relies on you to determine when to add the friction brakes. You can train yourself for how much room is needed to slow down most efficiently with the paddles; but once you master that, the pedals are just as efficient. (I really do feel like Dr. Seuss when I talks about pressing pedals vs. pulling paddles.)


Pulse-and-glide is essentially doing the same thing as moving the dots around as I described above. The exception is that our hybrid, unllike some others, does not have to speed up and slow down to accomplish it.
Super helpful explanation all around. Thanks so much for posting. I definitely don't do the pulse and glide method - too much hassle and would be quite strange (for me at least) . I just now don't hesitate accelerating a bit more (i.e. I suppose closer to the sweet spot of not leveraging battery in or out) then stay at desired speed. Honestly I don't think about this all that much when driving but was intrigued after having the car a couple of weeks. I'm just happy driving like I want I'm in the low 40s consistently. But I could see how there is likely greater variability with hybrids vs gas based on how you drive.
 

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Last week, I swapped out the 19" wheels on my Touring Hybrid for lighter 17" wheels and 225/50/R17 tires. When I did it, weather was winter-like, cold and rainy with temps in the 30s. The few hundred miles I put after the switch had me at 43-45 mpg. With the OE wheels and tires, I was around 39-41 (for the first 4 weeks of ownership). So, a definite inprovement. Yesterday, the weather warmed up into the 50's. Put on a lot of city driving, around 200 miles. The lie-o-meter in the digital dash showed me 51.0 mpg over 211 miles. That's impressive if true. I need to perform a manual calculation at the gas pump to correlate the next time I fill up. But I'm quite happy nonetheless.

A mid-sized sedan getting 50+ mpgs with city driving is more than I would have ever expected. The best part of driving this generation of Accord is how quiet it is. Nearly silent at a stop light with very little road noise coming into the cabin. Combine that with "Prius-like" efficiency and decent acceleration and I think these Accords are the best hybrid vehicles available from any manufacturer today.
 

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Last week, I swapped out the 19" wheels on my Touring Hybrid for lighter 17" wheels and 225/50/R17 tires. When I did it, weather was winter-like, cold and rainy with temps in the 30s. The few hundred miles I put after the switch had me at 43-45 mpg. With the OE wheels and tires, I was around 39-41 (for the first 4 weeks of ownership). So, a definite inprovement. Yesterday, the weather warmed up into the 50's. Put on a lot of city driving, around 200 miles. The lie-o-meter in the digital dash showed me 51.0 mpg over 211 miles. That's impressive if true. I need to perform a manual calculation at the gas pump to correlate the next time I fill up. But I'm quite happy nonetheless.

A mid-sized sedan getting 50+ mpgs with city driving is more than I would have ever expected. The best part of driving this generation of Accord is how quiet it is. Nearly silent at a stop light with very little road noise coming into the cabin. Combine that with "Prius-like" efficiency and decent acceleration and I think these Accords are the best hybrid vehicles available from any manufacturer today.
Which 17" wheels did you go with? How much were they? Pics?
 

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Hello I just bought an 23 Accord Touring and replaced my old Camry. To be honest, this car is surely more fun to drive but it's been a huge disappointment over the MPG. I drive mostly highway between 75-80 mph and I am hardly touching 35 mpg. My regular camry would give 32 MPG. I don't think it's worth to upgrade from a MPG perspective. The Accord has smaller gas tank to I have to fill up the gas on Friday evening before making my last trip back home for the week which I hate. Earlier I would only fill up once a week generally on Sunday evening and it would last me a whole week. I drive about 400 miles every week just for work and this hybrid is not giving me that. I filled up and it shows 460 miles of range but unfortunately to keep dropping drastically and I end up around 380 miles of actual range. If this continues, I am going to start missing my Camry. Current temp between 40-50 degrees. I will post again in few months if I see any improvement.
 

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I drive mostly highway between 75-80 mph and I am hardly touching 35 mpg. My regular camry would give 32 MPG. I don't think it's worth to upgrade from a MPG perspective.
Alex On Autos has an interesting discussion of this in his recent review of the new CR-V hybrid:
He mentions that when the EPA measures fuel economy, they average something like 45 or 50 MPH, so manufacturers tune their cars to ace that test. He says that non-hybrids might get better fuel economy for someone who regularly drives 75.
 

· 2014 V6 EXL Sedan
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Alex On Autos has an interesting discussion of this in his recent review of the new CR-V hybrid:
He mentions that when the EPA measures fuel economy, they average something like 45 or 50 MPH, so manufacturers tune their cars to ace that test. He says that non-hybrids might get better fuel economy for someone who regularly drives 75.
This will be my first hybrid ever. My wife will be the primary driver and she is generally making short trips around town at 40mph. I am optimistic that we will crush the gas mileage now vs the V6 Accord she is currently driving, for that usage pattern. But what you are saying is that if I am cruising at 85mph on the highway, the hybrid may not be much better than the Accord V6 which is sipping along on VCM mode a lot of the time etc.
 

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Hello I just bought an 23 Accord Touring and replaced my old Camry. To be honest, this car is surely more fun to drive but it's been a huge disappointment over the MPG. I drive mostly highway between 75-80 mph and I am hardly touching 35 mpg. My regular camry would give 32 MPG. I don't think it's worth to upgrade from a MPG perspective. The Accord has smaller gas tank to I have to fill up the gas on Friday evening before making my last trip back home for the week which I hate. Earlier I would only fill up once a week generally on Sunday evening and it would last me a whole week. I drive about 400 miles every week just for work and this hybrid is not giving me that. I filled up and it shows 460 miles of range but unfortunately to keep dropping drastically and I end up around 380 miles of actual range. If this continues, I am going to start missing my Camry. Current temp between 40-50 degrees. I will post again in few months if I see any improvement.
in the same boat.. only reason i sold my durango was i have new 45 minute commute to and from work. saw 44/41 on sticker..... only getting 34 and change halfway through second tank. i have a sort of hilly highway commute and didnt research how hybrids work. live in central pa where its cold which i now know doesnt help. Next time around i need to research....lol
 

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I drive a mix of 30% Highway and 70% City. So driving to work 5-days a week with a distance of 20 miles one-way I'm getting 46mpg going to work and 51mpg going home. I attribute going downhill and traffic on the way home for the improved mpg. I rarely go over 65mph on the highway portion of my daily commute and my city driving averages 35mph.

So it makes sense if you are driving faster than 70mph you may not gain any advantage with a hybrid. When I was researching hybrids I noticed the Highway MPG was always lower than City MPG. Come to find out, the hybrid motor's sweet spot is cruising at 55mph. If you go above 70mph the engine is running the majority of the time. Rapid starts also suck up gas and lower mpg.

On a lighter note, drove the Accord 4-days this week and maybe used 3-gal averaging 3/4-gal per day. Drove the Tacoma today and sucked up 1.25-gal just to get to work and another 1.25-gal to get home.
 

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I drive a mix of 30% Highway and 70% City. So driving to work 5-days a week with a distance of 20 miles one-way I'm getting 46mpg going to work and 51mpg going home. I attribute going downhill and traffic on the way home for the improved mpg. I rarely go over 65mph on the highway portion of my daily commute and my city driving averages 35mph.

So it makes sense if you are driving faster than 70mph you may not gain any advantage with a hybrid. When I was researching hybrids I noticed the Highway MPG was always lower than City MPG. Come to find out, the hybrid motor's sweet spot is cruising at 55mph. If you go above 70mph the engine is running the majority of the time. Rapid starts also suck up gas and lower mpg.

On a lighter note, drove the Accord 4-days this week and maybe used 3-gal averaging 3/4-gal per day. Drove the Tacoma today and sucked up 1.25-gal just to get to work and another 1.25-gal to get home.
I was used to cruising at 85 in the Durango. This is a complete lifestyle change for me. Lol. Even the GM at the dealership wasnt well versed on all the ins and outs of Hybrid driving. He told me the 44/41 on sticker was bare minimum and everyone exceeds it. That is clearly not correct. I blame myself though for not doing all my homework. Its a nice car but lf i only ave 35 i could have got sportier car with more get up a d go and got close to the low 30’s. It was the mid 40’s that attracted me to this car. Life is too short to drive under 65 every single time. Lol
 
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