[spiff72]

OK - I know it's been discussed in a few threads here at DA, but I am looking for some thoughts.

Been driving the 2.0T 6MT for about a week (still only about 400 miles on it). I have to assume that the rev hang is what is making my 1-2 shift very slow.

I am trying to be extremely deliberate and slow, releasing the throttle, then apply the clutch, shift to 2nd, wait what feels like an eternity (but probably about 1 or 2 seconds), then release clutch as I apply throttle. I know that there are (or will be?) ways to get rid of rev hang via a tune, but I am not ready to go there yet.

I feel like the throttle even "blips" a little bit before it hangs when I try to shift, and I am still working on my technique. This is why i described the sequence above as release throttle, THEN apply clutch. I feel like in my past MT driving days (20-ish years ago), the throttle release and clutch application were more of a simultaneous act, but this seems like it makes the hang even worse.

So are there any thoughts out there on technique for minimizing the effect of rev hang on the 1-2 (and to a lesser extent, 2-3) shifts? I suspect that the answer is going to be "Get used to it", but just thought i would ask.

 

[teglude97]

The rev hang is pretty bad on the 1st to 2nd shift, but if you shift out of 1st before 3k rpms, it's barely noticeable. I usually shift out of 1st early then stay in 2nd until 3500/4000 rpms. Works pretty well.

 

[spiff72]

The rev hang is pretty bad on the 1st to 2nd shift, but if you shift out of 1st before 3k rpms, it's barely noticeable. I usually shift out of 1st early then stay in 2nd until 3500/4000 rpms. Works pretty well.

I will give that a shot!

 

[Metfanant]

Yup...rev hang, a tune from KTuner will eliminate that, and I believe Hondata does as well?

METFANANT WAS BANNED FOR BEING A LYING POS SALESMAN MAKING COMMISSION ON SALES - DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING HE WRITES

 

[Graycar]

Yup...rev hang, a tune from KTuner will eliminate that, and I believe Hondata does as well?

A "tune" will eliminate rev hang......and your warranty.

Is it worth it?

 

[UnknownJinX]

Pretty sure the hang is present on all newer Hondas(and Acuras). Good to mention the warranty bit, though.

If I had gotten an 8th Gen 6-6, hell yeah! Screw rev hang.

Sent via MHA-L29. Whatever.

 

[thenzie]

Hondata does eliminate rev hang 100%, but only after warming up. If I go above 3k in the mornings on the way to work and it hasn't fully warmed up, it will hang. I don't really do it often but if I have to go, I have to go lol

 

[Metfanant]

A "tune" will eliminate rev hang......and your warranty.

Is it worth it?

- Reflash to stock before service...can be done from your cellphone with KTuner while sitting in the dealership parking lot.

- Before you bring it up, Hondata has on these forums discussed that dealers cannot see that your car has been flashed in the past. Whether or not a Honda engineer could tell in the case that your whole car or ECU was for some reason sent to Honda corporate for inspection, I don't know, but the chances of that happening are just about none...

- It is the responsibility of Honda to prove any modifications caused the issue that you're requesting a warranty repair for...so for example...they could never prove an ECU tune caused a brake system failure, or suspension component failure

- They can however refuse warranty if they scan the ECU and find an "over rev" code...that could be caused by a missed shift stock or tuned...that would happen if you banged into 3rd on the 4-5 upshift...or somehow hit 2nd on the 3-4 shift

 

[Graycar]

- Reflash to stock before service...can be done from your cellphone with KTuner while sitting in the dealership parking lot.

- Before you bring it up, Hondata has on these forums discussed that dealers cannot see that your car has been flashed in the past. Whether or not a Honda engineer could tell in the case that your whole car or ECU was for some reason sent to Honda corporate for inspection, I don't know, but the chances of that happening are just about none...

- It is the responsibility of Honda to prove any modifications caused the issue that you're requesting a warranty repair for...so for example...they could never prove an ECU tune caused a brake system failure, or suspension component failure

- They can however refuse warranty if they scan the ECU and find an "over rev" code...that could be caused by a missed shift stock or tuned...that would happen if you banged into 3rd on the 4-5 upshift...or somehow hit 2nd on the 3-4 shift

It is your money and your car, so you can assume any level of risk that suits your desires.

Each person must evaluate the available information associated with the risk of a denied warranty claim due to a tune. There are lots of variables and what ifs that may make conservative owners uncomfortable when considering the downside of a tune.

 

[spiff72]

My own personal opinion is probably NOT to tune. Mainly out of concern for warranty. I have done virtually zero investigation into these tunes, though.

For now I am just trying to mitigate the rev hang by adjusting my (still rusty) technique, with the hope of not putting unnecessary wear on the clutch. I am getting closer to my "break in" period conclusion, so I hope to get a little more aggressive in my driving soon. :grin

 

[RickBlaine]

- Before you bring it up, Hondata has on these forums discussed that dealers cannot see that your car has been flashed in the past. Whether or not a Honda engineer could tell in the case that your whole car or ECU was for some reason sent to Honda corporate for inspection, I don't know, but the chances of that happening are just about none...

- It is the responsibility of Honda to prove any modifications caused the issue that you're requesting a warranty repair for...so for example...they could never prove an ECU tune caused a brake system failure, or suspension component failure

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act addresses these modifications- be it on an iPhone, a Subaru WRX, a laptop, etc.

The truth is that you may be "right", but in all practical terms you may be out of luck. Honda is burdened with proving your modified ECU caused an overheating issue, for example- but proving it may very well mean a court of law- which could be 1-3 years after they initially denied your warranty claim. For those 1-3 years, YOU are paying a retainer to an attorney. YOU are paying court costs. YOU are paying for expert witnesses. YOU are paying your car loan. I have yet to hear of a law firm filing a class action law suit to absorb these costs as they represent car enthusiasts who have flashed their ECUs, added NOS, larger turbos, etc....

So in practical terms the dealership may tell you to take a hike. Corporate does NOT have to prove to you a day later- at the dealership, why your modification caused the failure. They don't have to give you documentation that afternoon. They just tell you to take a hike. Sometimes, this happens.

As for opening an ECU- many manufacturers have learned from Apple and others- they know when an ECU was physically opened, when it was flashed, etc....they may act on this info or not. In my experience with the 3000GT, EVO, Corvette, and Porsche platforms, they usually don't deny you. At worst, they may use the info to mitigate their liability (hey- we will pay 50% of repair now, or see you in court in 3 years).

A real world example is my buddy Rich, who gets a new 911 every two years. He "chipped" it 4 years ago, then had a severe engine issue. The local dealer knew it was chipped, but went to bat for him and simply applied to corporate for an engine rebuild- he had bought 7 new cars in the previous 12 years. They told Rich that if the regional guy had been around within 2 weeks (an acceptable "wait" time), he would have denied the claim. So they wrote it up in such a way as to ignore the aftermarket chip.

Look, tuners are not in the habit of putting out crap products that blow up your engine- but if something goes wrong, you may be "right", but lose anyway.

 

[chrishs2000]

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act addresses these modifications- be it on an iPhone, a Subaru WRX, a laptop, etc.

The truth is that you may be "right", but in all practical terms you may be out of luck. Honda is burdened with proving your modified ECU caused an overheating issue, for example- but proving it may very well mean a court of law- which could be 1-3 years after they initially denied your warranty claim. For those 1-3 years, YOU are paying a retainer to an attorney. YOU are paying court costs. YOU are paying for expert witnesses. YOU are paying your car loan. I have yet to hear of a law firm filing a class action law suit to absorb these costs as they represent car enthusiasts who have flashed their ECUs, added NOS, larger turbos, etc....

So in practical terms the dealership may tell you to take a hike. Corporate does NOT have to prove to you a day later- at the dealership, why your modification caused the failure. They don't have to give you documentation that afternoon. They just tell you to take a hike. Sometimes, this happens.

As for opening an ECU- many manufacturers have learned from Apple and others- they know when an ECU was physically opened, when it was flashed, etc....they may act on this info or not. In my experience with the 3000GT, EVO, Corvette, and Porsche platforms, they usually don't deny you. At worst, they may use the info to mitigate their liability (hey- we will pay 50% of repair now, or see you in court in 3 years).

A real world example is my buddy Rich, who gets a new 911 every two years. He "chipped" it 4 years ago, then had a severe engine issue. The local dealer knew it was chipped, but went to bat for him and simply applied to corporate for an engine rebuild- he had bought 7 new cars in the previous 12 years. They told Rich that if the regional guy had been around within 2 weeks (an acceptable "wait" time), he would have denied the claim. So they wrote it up in such a way as to ignore the aftermarket chip.

Look, tuners are not in the habit of putting out crap products that blow up your engine- but if something goes wrong, you may be "right", but lose anyway.

It depends on what the issue is as to whether Magnusson-Moss applies, or if the dealer will "back" you.

My concern from a tune isn't that I will need warranty work. It's that the additional pressure/temperature will cause internal engine damage. I have been developing pistons/rods/rings/bearings for 10+ years to OEM's for a tier one supplier and I know first hand what even stock boost levels can do over sustained periods of time. Aluminum has a finite fatigue life and it precipitously drops over ~300degC crown temps. I have been involved in more warranty claims than I can count where warranty coverage was denied to the owner because the engine was obviously tuned.

I may tune my car down the road, but I wouldn't expect to succeed on a warranty claim if I melt a piston, scuff a cylinder, seize a bearing or bend a rod.

 

[Metfanant]

It is your money and your car, so you can assume any level of risk that suits your desires.

Each person must evaluate the available information associated with the risk of a denied warranty claim due to a tune. There are lots of variables and what ifs that may make conservative owners uncomfortable when considering the downside of a tune.

Sure, but again, the dealership would have to KNOW you were tuned in the first place...in the case of KTuner and an Android phone...you're talking about a 5 minute process that can be done from your phone to return to stock...unless your car can't actually be powered on in any way...you can flash the ECU...

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act addresses these modifications- be it on an iPhone, a Subaru WRX, a laptop, etc.

The truth is that you may be "right", but in all practical terms you may be out of luck. Honda is burdened with proving your modified ECU caused an overheating issue, for example- but proving it may very well mean a court of law- which could be 1-3 years after they initially denied your warranty claim. For those 1-3 years, YOU are paying a retainer to an attorney. YOU are paying court costs. YOU are paying for expert witnesses. YOU are paying your car loan. I have yet to hear of a law firm filing a class action law suit to absorb these costs as they represent car enthusiasts who have flashed their ECUs, added NOS, larger turbos, etc....

So in practical terms the dealership may tell you to take a hike. Corporate does NOT have to prove to you a day later- at the dealership, why your modification caused the failure. They don't have to give you documentation that afternoon. They just tell you to take a hike. Sometimes, this happens.

As for opening an ECU- many manufacturers have learned from Apple and others- they know when an ECU was physically opened, when it was flashed, etc....they may act on this info or not. In my experience with the 3000GT, EVO, Corvette, and Porsche platforms, they usually don't deny you. At worst, they may use the info to mitigate their liability (hey- we will pay 50% of repair now, or see you in court in 3 years).

A real world example is my buddy Rich, who gets a new 911 every two years. He "chipped" it 4 years ago, then had a severe engine issue. The local dealer knew it was chipped, but went to bat for him and simply applied to corporate for an engine rebuild- he had bought 7 new cars in the previous 12 years. They told Rich that if the regional guy had been around within 2 weeks (an acceptable "wait" time), he would have denied the claim. So they wrote it up in such a way as to ignore the aftermarket chip.

Look, tuners are not in the habit of putting out crap products that blow up your engine- but if something goes wrong, you may be "right", but lose anyway.

There is no physical opening of the ECU on our cars...there is no "chip." there is nothing...its all done through the OBDII port, you don't even have to leave the device plugged into the port. Once its flashed, its flashed...and Hondata has gone on record stating that Honda dealerships cannot see any information regarding flashes...no flash history, no flash counter, no unlock codes, no anything of the sort...

and as i said above...if an issue were to arise while you are flashed with a tune...the process for returning to stock is obnoxiously simple. Just thinking back to the process needed to "tune" a car even back in the 90's, its actually quite simply ridiculous what we can do with our ECUs...

As for other cars that are completely unrelated to the 2018 Honda Accord, idk that that is really relevant...my Mustang for instance...to have anything even approaching the customization provided by KTuner or Hondata requires a complete ECU replacement...this would obviously be readily apparent to a dealer...but im speaking in terms of THIS CAR and what the tuners that have actually created the product have told us.

 

[RickBlaine]

Hardware and Software

Sure, but again, the dealership would have to KNOW you were tuned in the first place...in the case of KTuner and an Android phone...you're talking about a 5 minute process that can be done from your phone to return to stock...unless your car can't actually be powered on in any way...you can flash the ECU...



There is no physical opening of the ECU on our cars...its all done through the OBDII port...and Hondata has gone on record stating that Honda dealerships cannot see any information regarding flashes...no flash history, no flash counter, no unlock codes, no anything of the sort...

and as i said above...if an issue were to arise while you are flashed with a tune...the process for returning to stock is obnoxiously simple. Just thinking back to the process needed to "tune" a car even back in the 90's, its actually quite simply ridiculous what we can do with our ECUs...

As for other cars that are completely unrelated to the 2018 Honda Accord, idk that that is really relevant...my Mustang for instance...to have anything even approaching the customization provided by KTuner or Hondata requires a complete ECU replacement...this would obviously be readily apparent to a dealer...but im speaking in terms of THIS CAR and what the tuners that have actually created the product have told us.

I would like to see Hondata and KTuner state that on their websites....that Honda dealerships cannot see any information regarding flashes. And I don't mean with a qualifier such as "To the best of our knowledge...."

Would anyone be kind enough to provide a link to that please?

I was just on KTuner's website for the Civic R, KTuner and the Type-R ? Where do we go from here? ? KTuner, LLC perhaps I am interpreting incorrectly or I extrapolated to the Accord, but I see a pic of an ECU opened up with the phrase "hardware modification" and "send it in to us for unlocking". If Accord tuning is 100% through the port, so be it.

But until tuners create a statement backing up this claim about the dealer not knowing, I will use my background at the US Department of Transportation, my dealings with China, Russia and India as far as computer espionage, and my friends at the FBI specializing in data forensics to state that yes, Honda can know if its computer was re-flashed. This is a simple thing to do. I spent some time at DOT getting crash info- the auto manufacturers always knew when the ECU was modified or re-flashed.

If tuners want to state that they will provide attorneys and legal help should there be a warranty denial, I will abide. If they can post a legal case number showing a successful outcome to a warranty denial, I will abide.

 

[UnknownJinX]

I would like to see Hondata and KTuner state that on their websites....that Honda dealerships cannot see any information regarding flashes. And I don't mean with a qualifier such as "To the best of our knowledge...."

Would anyone be kind enough to provide a link to that please?

I was just on KTuner's website for the Civic R, KTuner and the Type-R ? Where do we go from here? ? KTuner, LLC perhaps I am interpreting incorrectly or I extrapolated to the Accord, but I see a pic of an ECU opened up with the phrase "hardware modification" and "send it in to us for unlocking". If Accord tuning is 100% through the port, so be it.

But until tuners create a statement backing up this claim about the dealer not knowing, I will use my background at the US Department of Transportation, my dealings with China, Russia and India as far as computer espionage, and my friends at the FBI specializing in data forensics to state that yes, Honda can know if its computer was re-flashed. This is a simple thing to do. I spent some time at DOT getting crash info- the auto manufacturers always knew when the ECU was modified or re-flashed.

If tuners want to state that they will provide attorneys and legal help should there be a warranty denial, I will abide. If they can post a legal case number showing a successful outcome to a warranty denial, I will abide.

I know for some cars, what you can do is take your ECU out, send it to a tuner, they reflash it, and they send it back to you, so it might just be that.

Either way, it's good to make people aware of the potential risk, however small it may be.

Sent via MHA-L29. Whatever.

 

[Metfanant]

I would like to see Hondata and KTuner state that on their websites....that Honda dealerships cannot see any information regarding flashes. And I don't mean with a qualifier such as "To the best of our knowledge...."

Would anyone be kind enough to provide a link to that please?

I was just on KTuner's website for the Civic R, KTuner and the Type-R ? Where do we go from here? ? KTuner, LLC perhaps I am interpreting incorrectly or I extrapolated to the Accord, but I see a pic of an ECU opened up with the phrase "hardware modification" and "send it in to us for unlocking". If Accord tuning is 100% through the port, so be it.

But until tuners create a statement backing up this claim about the dealer not knowing, I will use my background at the US Department of Transportation, my dealings with China, Russia and India as far as computer espionage, and my friends at the FBI specializing in data forensics to state that yes, Honda can know if its computer was re-flashed. This is a simple thing to do. I spent some time at DOT getting crash info- the auto manufacturers always knew when the ECU was modified or re-flashed.

If tuners want to state that they will provide attorneys and legal help should there be a warranty denial, I will abide. If they can post a legal case number showing a successful outcome to a warranty denial, I will abide.

The Accord and Type R have COMPLETELY different ECUs...there is nothing related. The CTR ECU is very locked down...the rest of the Civic X's and Accord X are 100% completely different...you plug the tuner into the OBDII port and flash...done...

The search feature on mobile doesn't work well...but I'll try to find where Hondata responded to my concerns about the dealerships...

 

[14v6]

People like to tinker. Heck, a local dealer has facebook videos of them installing Hondata on a Civic. I bet if Honda wanted to they could make ECU tampering impossible. Why anyone would want to mess with engine parameters for a powertrain that was engineered for a gazillion bucks is beyond me. If there is some sort of telemetry "snapshot" for the engine like they have for the transmissions then maybe there is a smoking gun. Stereos, light bulbs, ballasts, intakes, anything not OEM could all have potential issues with operation but proving that these invalidate a warranty could be difficult. When I lived in downstate NY, we had emissions testing and I would hope that these tunes are CARB compliant.

 

[Metfanant]

People like to tinker. Heck, a local dealer has facebook videos of them installing Hondata on a Civic. I bet if Honda wanted to they could make ECU tampering impossible. Why anyone would want to mess with engine parameters for a powertrain that was engineered for a gazillion bucks is beyond me. If there is some sort of telemetry "snapshot" for the engine like they have for the transmissions then maybe there is a smoking gun. Stereos, light bulbs, ballasts, intakes, anything not OEM could all have potential issues with operation but proving that these invalidate a warranty could be difficult. When I lived in downstate NY, we had emissions testing and I would hope that these tunes are CARB compliant.

Probably because these "gazillion dollar" engine parameters are very economy oriented and often leave crazy amounts of safe power on the table...Honda also programs things like rev hang, or artificial dampening to throttle response into the ECU, which do nothing but dumb down and dull the driving experience...

Some Honda dealerships are actually certified Hondata sales/installation centers...

As for emissions regulations...some tunes are, some are not...but once again...a flash back to stock takes minutes, and with KTuner could be done from your phone before getting your inspection if it wouldnt pass with the tune

 

[Spied4US]

Interesting thread. WRT the initial subject of the thread -- rev hang -- this has been a somewhat unique Honda annoyance for years. It, of course, is emissions related. The overrun can be mitigated (not eliminated, but worked around) by lifting your foot off the accelerator a nanosecond (so to speak) before shoving in the clutch. This obviously requires some initial concentration, but after a while it become a matter of muscle memory. You don't even think about it. You're out of the throttle for a quarter second or so and then the clutch goes down. No rev hang. Essentially, you are physically (with your footwork) defeating what Honda has programmed into the ECU.

(Let me get ahead of those who doubt this works. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. It's works for me, and I've been doing it for years, going back to the '09s Accords [and carbureted V-Dubs in the early '70s]. I'm not going to argue the point.)

Now, let's turn briefly to the issue of flashing or otherwise altering the ECU: I've read every word that Hondata has written, and nothing I've read even hints at the conclusion that an ECU can be re-coded without detection. FWIW, I'm with RickBlaine regarding this issue. IMHO, if Honda suspects the ECU has been re-coded (i.e., flashed, whatever you wish to call it), the company will bring in one of their coneheads who does this work for a living, who can and will retrace what's been done. Y'all can argue this point until the cows come home if you wish, but my experience indicates otherwise.

 

[14v6]

Anyone think about your insurance company? If for example they had information that your car was tuned. Years ago in Long Island there were fatalities when a Grand National was racing a Monte SS and crashed into a wedding limo. The judge wasn't at all pleased that the Regal, the quickest vehicle in the quarter mile at the time was traveling well over 100 in a 35 zone.