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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I had my NKG's replaced as above, wonder if there is any impact on the performance etc. The spec (car Manual) referred to both types for my 2005 2.4L 4cyl DOHC 5sp automatic. The one with '13', as I found out, is for California emission, bigger gap, 1.3mm and my original plugs were with 1.1mm gap. I bought the car and drive it in Ontario, Canada. any word of advice is appreciated. thanks
 

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Hi Ninja and welcome to DA,

The 11 and 13 gaps are actually 11mm or 13mm, respectively. The California emissions actually referrers to several states, now numbering 8, in the United States that have tighter emission standards.

My vehicle is also a 2005, 4 cylinder with Auto transmission. It is a Partial to Zero Emission Vehicle (PZEV) and has slight differences from the "regular" Accords. My emissions- including all intake and exhaust, are warranted for 150,000 or 15 years PROVIDED I am registered in one of those states.

My car uses the wider gapped plugs- the 13's. You can put all "11's" into a "13" or all "13's" into an "11". The point is Honda wanted to cut down even more emissions so designated a wider gap for the PZEV designated vehicle.

My emissions report here in Chicago, Illinois reads a lot of zeros. As far as performance, my car gets the same mileage per gallon of gas, and puts out the same horsepower as the "regular" Accords.

So no, don't worry for the next 110,000 miles- your spark plugs are good.

1) Do you have different emission standards in Ontario as opposed to the rest of Canada?

2) Was your car originally a US car, or always Canada?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks RickBlane,

Don't think we have different emission standards here than in the rest of Canada, should be all the same.
The car was always in Canada, sold and driven mostly in Ontario.
Never had a problem with the emission tests here (mandatory in Ontario, just spent $$$ to see lots of 00000's in the report) as well as mileage - always been excellent, same for the power output.
I'll keep the plugs as they are, if it helps environment a bit even better!
cheers and thanks again
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
i got an interesting answer from the NGK rep:
"Too much gap can result in a higher rate of misfires, loss of power, plug fouling and poor fuel economy."
He asked me if I had reset the gap to 0.044" (plug with '13' is 0.052"). I did not see noticeable change in my engine's performance and wonder is the rep telling me the truth, or just hope to get some extra business?
Any help is appreciated.
 

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Hows come everytime I look up parts for my car there is no listings for PZEV?

Also I've read that a regular 2004 accord get better MPG than a PZEV 2004 accord, that makes sense to me.
 

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i got an interesting answer from the NGK rep:
"Too much gap can result in a higher rate of misfires, loss of power, plug fouling and poor fuel economy."
He asked me if I had reset the gap to 0.044" (plug with '13' is 0.052"). I did not see noticeable change in my engine's performance and wonder is the rep telling me the truth, or just hope to get some extra business?
Any help is appreciated.
That is of course true...too much gap can lead to misfires. But you don't have "too much gap". You have a standardized NGK gap on your plugs. Your car's ECU can recognize the firing time and make any adjustments accordingly if need be- but it does not need to.

So he is telling you the truth, but sounds like he is reading from the standard response card. I doubt if he knows what Honda's PZEV designation is.

Honda put a wider gap in to make the burn even cleaner- that is all. There is no measurable difference in HP, torque, or MPG....only in emissions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
That is of course true...too much gap can lead to misfires. But you don't have "too much gap". You have a standardized NGK gap on your plugs. Your car's ECU can recognize the firing time and make any adjustments accordingly if need be- but it does not need to.

So he is telling you the truth, but sounds like he is reading from the standard response card. I doubt if he knows what Honda's PZEV designation is.

Honda put a wider gap in to make the burn even cleaner- that is all. There is no measurable difference in HP, torque, or MPG....only in emissions.
Helpful again RickBlaine,

I don't think my Accord is PZEV, it's just standard type, we don't have Cal. emission rules here in Ontario. So, if '13' plugs are also good for standard engines, same as original '11' and vice versa, (I suppose this is true?) I think you're right, the rep is just reading standard answers from a template.
 

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Hows come everytime I look up parts for my car there is no listings for PZEV?

Also I've read that a regular 2004 accord get better MPG than a PZEV 2004 accord, that makes sense to me.
Chris,

Good point!

1) Can you imagine the confusion people would have if Honda (and every parts store and parts manufacturer) asked you if your car was a SULEV, a PZEV, a ULEV, or a "regular" Accord?

2) National car manufacturers have to meet the requirements of the state regulated agencies in which they sell cars. California (and seven additional states) have tougher emissions standards than the remaining 42 states. Most of these standards are defined by "a certain percent cleaner" than their "regular" vehicles. So they don't need to create new engines, just the same engine that is a "degree" lower in emissions.

Since these 8 states are a huge percent of the overall car sales in the USA (1 out of 10 in California alone) there is money to be made.

3) Honda follows the rules of these 8 states by giving a warranty on intake and exhaust for 15 years or 150,000 miles. This gives owners an incentive to stay "green". That means my catalytic converter is covered, my intake hose, my MAF sensor, and yes, even my PCV valve. They don't cover my catalytic converter's heat shield, sadly. That rusted away....

4) They achieve the rule by building the car with 13 mm gapped plugs instead of 11. These make the fuel burn cleaner. The only measurable difference is in the emissions, not in power, mpg, or torque.

The myth of less power goes back to the early days (the 1980s) where a California vehicle put out considerably fewer HP than the other 49 states. Those cars had restricted intake and restricted exhaust. I remember Motor Trend et al doing track testing on cars and reporting two numbers- one for CA and a 0-60mph time for the other 49 states.
 

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By the way, my 13 mm plugs cost $2 more per plug than the 11mm plugs! (at Advance Auto)

Why? Because they can...

I am here in Illinois now and my dealer has no idea what a PZEV is. Nor do they care.
 

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If the 13mm plug burns cleaner, and has no drawbacks, why wouldn't Honda use them on all Accords? What am I missing here?
 

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If the 13mm plug burns cleaner, and has no drawbacks, why wouldn't Honda use them on all Accords? What am I missing here?
BLCKFLSH Good point but I think that Honda just uses the 13mm plugs in the states with the toughest emissions tests like California and few others. Is just for that emissions no performance or MPG differences as Rick mentioned before. Most Hondas run very clean anyways so no worries.
 

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So why not make all Accords, or all Hondas for that matter, burn cleaner? Wouldn't that be good for their image, to say "All our cars are California emissions"? Are they creating more pollution in other states, just because they can? Is it just a matter of more expensive sensors to monitor the emissions?
 

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So why not make all Accords, or all Hondas for that matter, burn cleaner? Wouldn't that be good for their image, to say "All our cars are California emissions"? Are they creating more pollution in other states, just because they can? Is it just a matter of more expensive sensors to monitor the emissions?
That is true you are absolutely right in that regard, but think about it the 13mm plugs are $2-3 dollars more per plug, so in every 4 cyl car they save 8-12 dollars, now multiply all that by all the cars that they produce that are not going to California or the other states with California emission standards its a lot of money just on that. So unfortunately its all about money, not about taking care of the environment.
 

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I worked for the US Dept. of Transportation in Washington, DC back in the day. Every law maker has their lobbyist, every state has a lobbyist as well, every manufacturing group, trade group, everyone but us guys.

Anyway, the way the law is written in California (and hence the additional 7 states) makes it so that there is a limit to the amount of pollution a car can produce if it is to be sold/operated there. That makes sense.

Now, California likes to take the lead in enviro policy. Car lobbyists hit up the CA state assembly and said they will make sure that CA always have the cleanest cars. They don't have to be hydrogen powered, just "1 degree" cleaner than non-California cars. To ensure that people take care of their cars' emission output, the state of CA mandated that cars sold there have to have longer warranties for their intake/exhaust.

My exhaust is the same as yours. My intake...same. All the part numbers are the same EXCEPT for plugs which lower a couple of pollutants by a few hundredths....

Manufacturers hire advertising agencies to have focus groups. They ask focus groups "Would you want a California emission car here in Illinois?" For every one person that says "yes", there are probably five that say "no"- because they think of California as more restrictive (less HP) in their engines.

Some manufacturers add different catalytic converters, some change software to make the cars shift earlier- whatever it takes to set it apart from their regular cars they do, because that is what California demands.

It truly is a parliament of well-paid whores and idiots. They write poorly thought out legislation that on paper- satisfies their BS law.

Think about this guys- the majority of cars and car drivers are in California. Do you think everyone there would "allow" getting 1 mph less and 10 HP less than a car over the border in Nevada? With the majority of drivers in the US being CA drivers, 1 mpg less would equal a hella lot of oil...

This is marketing. Sorry for the rambling response- I just spent 3 hours in a government meeting.....

EDIT: BTW, last year California did $65 billion in trade with countries around the world. If they were a country, they would be the world's 7th largest economy. They found that by taking the lead in "green" technology such as solar panels, wind turbines, electric vehicles, etc. it is a boost to their economy. THEY create the market, and others follow. This ensures their state is the recipient of much federal dollars when the fed wants to kick start an industry. Tesla Motors got a $100 million federal backed, low interest loan. That brings in hundreds of jobs. Now you know why CA has strict emissions- they don't want to compete with 49 other states, they want to take the lead and define the market so they profit from it.
 

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That was some good information Mr.Rick :notworthy so basically is all about politics and $$$
So Since the other states emission standards are not that strict there is no need for Honda or other manufacturers to build more efficient "Green" vehicles correct? They won't get extra money from the fed government if I understood correctly?
 

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Juan: The other 42 states do have strict emissions. California's is just/that much stricter, that's all.

All manufacturers have laws to follow governing their corporate average fuel economy (CAFE standards), safety, as well as emissions. Then the states may add to the emission levels. (States don't get into crash safety nor fuel economy).

The federal government "gave" money to GM, Ford, and Chrysler during the bailout back in 2008-2009. Honda, Nissan, and Toyota- though they manufacture here in the USA did not receive a dime. Every automaker that wants to sell cars in the USA has an incentive to improve, because the federal government laid out well-publicized targets regarding emissions and fuel economy that sellers have to hit without getting the dreaded fuel guzzler tax (about $1,300 per vehicle). If they don't hit emission targets, the cars can't be sold here.

Every few years the bar gets raised....automakers know that in year 2020, the gas guzzler tax will increase to $2,000 per vehicle and emissions must be even better- as well as the CAFE must be higher- so there is an incentive to build greener.

But the biggest incentive is money. China overtook Japan as the second largest car market two years ago, and I believe China will overtake the USA by 2020. China does not care much for safety- but they do care about emissions....read on...

Back until the early 2000s, Mexico had leaded gas, no catalytic converters, and some of the worst air in the world. As China's auto industry grew, they did not want Mexico City's level of air pollution- so they started making their cars have fewer emissions. If China is gonna make and sell cars to foreign markets- they better take the lead in emissions because it is cheaper to standardize a car for many markets than to make variations of one car for many markets.

Uncle Sam gave bail out money, and backed a loan to Tesla. Tesla's stock tripled since January of this year...TRIPLED! Their market growth will slow, but they proved the concept of electric cars. Consumer Reports rated it as the highest scoring car they ever tested. Tesla is coming out with a less expensive car next year, Honda is selling a plug in Accord, etc.

The only Federal money coming out now is a $7,500 tax rebate which applies to full electric or plug in vehicles. Your Prius hybrid no longer qualifies- so government incentives worked in that it made people be more accepting of electric vehicles. States can still offer incentives (I think CA offers an additional $2,500).

This year America will become the largest oil producing nation in the world. Yes, the USA. If we can keep manufacturing jobs here in the USA, differentiating ourselves with our superior product, we can keep the country strong.

More and more people are moving into cities all over the world, the smog can kill people. Every country wants better emissions. That is the future.

I got to get some sleep.
 

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Just to add just what a PZEV means. I found this on the 8th gen forum:
""PZEV Version
A PZEV version of the 177- and 190-horsepower four-cylinder engines is sold in California, Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island and Vermont. The principal differences between the PZEV Accord and the ULEV-2 version sold in all states are single exhaust valve operation at low rpm, special dual-probe spark plugs and remapped Powertrain Control Module (PCM) programming, in addition to the near-zero evaporative emissions equipment. The horsepower, torque and EPA-estimated fuel economy of the PZEV and ULEV-2 engines are identical.

Single Exhaust Valve Operation
The Accord's 2.4-liter DOHC i-VTEC PZEV-compliant engine has two modes of exhaust valve operation. Below 2500 rpm, only one exhaust valve operates, creating a strong rotational flow in the exhaust gases that creates a "thermal reactor" effect to reduce hydrocarbon emissions. Above 2500 rpm where exhaust flow increases, a hydraulically actuated pin locks the rockers for both exhaust valves together so they operate in unison, following a single cam profile. ""
So the plugs, valve train, and PCM are the difference.
 

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That is of course true...too much gap can lead to misfires. But you don't have "too much gap". You have a standardized NGK gap on your plugs. Your car's ECU can recognize the firing time and make any adjustments accordingly if need be- but it does not need to.

So he is telling you the truth, but sounds like he is reading from the standard response card. I doubt if he knows what Honda's PZEV designation is.

Honda put a wider gap in to make the burn even cleaner- that is all. There is no measurable difference in HP, torque, or MPG....only in emissions.
This is making me think tho...cause my car is misfiring, rpms are high, and has a sluggish acceleration after I changed to NGK 11's. I was going by my manual, so when I saw that 13's were in there already I was confused. Is it possible the ECU is just used to how my car ran for 189k miles?? Should I change back to 13's? I didn't notice a difference right away...took a week or two.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
to close a thread after long time - been using 13 plug for around 20K miles, no changes whatsoever in any aspect of the car operation. by the way NGK official tollerance for the gap is just that - 0.2mm so using either 13 or 11 makes no difference and should not require ECU to make any adjustments....so, your issue is likely caused by something else, not the plug gap size difference... cheers
 

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If I read this tread properly, I might as well go with the cheaper plug IZFR6K-11? I live in Virginia, no emissions testing.
 
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