Drive Accord Honda Forums banner

1 - 20 of 92 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I recently had my vehicle, a 2013 Honda Accord EX-L 4cl, serviced at the Honda dealer. They replaced the drivers front lower ball joint (it was making lots of noise) and also the leaking valve cover gasket.

In the middle of the repair they called me and told me something weird was happening, the car steering wheel was pulling to the left. I asked him to finish the current repairs and I would pick up the vehicle because I didn't know what he meant and how severe it was. Also, they weren't really sharing information at this point, so I figured I'd at least troubleshoot and try to figure out what the problem was on my own.

The two repairs looked fine. When I got it, the vehicle could not be driven without holding the steering wheel because the steering wheel wants to spin to the left. When I got home, I centered the steering wheel, lifted the front wheels of the car with a hand jack, and turned on the car while two wheels were off the ground. As soon as I pressed the start button on, the car and engine started and power was on, the steering wheel started rotating to the left, even faster because car wheels were off the ground. I've never experience something like this in the 7+ years I've owned the vehicle. I bought it new.

After investigating this, I found out that there is a Electronic Power Steering (EPS) torque sensor. From years 2013-2014 Honda has "Service Bulletin 15-056" titled "Warranty Extension: EPS Torque Sensor (DTC 53-01 or DTC-02)" which states: "American Honda is extending the warranty coverage on all electric power steering torque sensors to 13 years from the original date of purchase with no mileage limit."

I talked to the Honda dealer about this, but they will not cover this because they say that my indicators: Electric Power Steering (EPS) Indicator or Malfunction Indicator Lamp are not on. However, they do agree something is wrong with it. They will not cover it under the extended warranty unless the indicator comes on. I just can't believe it.

I don't know how safe it is to drive with this, should I:
  • Continue to drive it until EPS indicator comes on (it comes on every few thousand miles and goes away).
  • Pay them to diagnose the issue and replace probably the EPS, which is probably going to be between $1,000-$2,000.
  • Should I file a complaint with NHTSA and/or attorney general?
I called American Honda at 1-800-999-1009, but the recording says that they are flooded with calls and are not taking any more.

The car has 140,000 miles, but it is super clean. I change the oil religiously every 5000 miles. Every few thousand miles I get VSA, EPS, Smart Entry Indicator, TPMS, FCW, or LDW come on for half a day, but then it disappears without doing anything.
 

·
Elvira - the car
Joined
·
3,599 Posts
I recently had my vehicle, a 2013 Honda Accord EX-L 4cl, serviced at the Honda dealer. They replaced the drivers front lower ball joint (it was making lots of noise) and also the leaking valve cover gasket.

In the middle of the repair they called me and told me something weird was happening, the car steering wheel was pulling to the left. I asked him to finish the current repairs and I would pick up the vehicle because I didn't know what he meant and how severe it was. Also, they weren't really sharing information at this point, so I figured I'd at least troubleshoot and try to figure out what the problem was on my own.

The two repairs looked fine. When I got it, the vehicle could not be driven without holding the steering wheel because the steering wheel wants to spin to the left. When I got home, I centered the steering wheel, lifted the front wheels of the car with a hand jack, and turned on the car while two wheels were off the ground. As soon as I pressed the start button on, the car and engine started and power was on, the steering wheel started rotating to the left, even faster because car wheels were off the ground. I've never experience something like this in the 7+ years I've owned the vehicle. I bought it new.

After investigating this, I found out that there is a Electronic Power Steering (EPS) torque sensor. From years 2013-2014 Honda has "Service Bulletin 15-056" titled "Warranty Extension: EPS Torque Sensor (DTC 53-01 or DTC-02)" which states: "American Honda is extending the warranty coverage on all electric power steering torque sensors to 13 years from the original date of purchase with no mileage limit."

I talked to the Honda dealer about this, but they will not cover this because they say that my indicators: Electric Power Steering (EPS) Indicator or Malfunction Indicator Lamp are not on. However, they do agree something is wrong with it. They will not cover it under the extended warranty unless the indicator comes on. I just can't believe it.

I don't know how safe it is to drive with this, should I:
  • Continue to drive it until EPS indicator comes on (it comes on every few thousand miles and goes away).
  • Pay them to diagnose the issue and replace probably the EPS, which is probably going to be between $1,000-$2,000.
  • Should I file a complaint with NHTSA and/or attorney general?
I called American Honda at 1-800-999-1009, but the recording says that they are flooded with calls and are not taking any more.

The car has 140,000 miles, but it is super clean. I change the oil religiously every 5000 miles. Every few thousand miles I get VSA, EPS, Smart Entry Indicator, TPMS, FCW, or LDW come on for half a day, but then it disappears without doing anything.

go to the #2 post by @drowned12 and look at the attachment explaining the steering pull troubleshooting procedure. Read the last line where it states they need to do the torque sensor neutral memorization procedure.

shows what is required to reset it using that specific equipment. Notice that he also goes into the section that covers the ABS,VSA etc that you say happens to you occasionally.

Unbelievable the Honda places didn't recognize the problem as it appears to happen if suspension parts are replaced or if alignment was performed.

Good luck
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
14,431 Posts
  • Continue to drive it until EPS indicator comes on (it comes on every few thousand miles and goes away).
You ignored this light?

I called American Honda at 1-800-999-1009, but the recording says that they are flooded with calls and are not taking any more.
I called the number at American Honda that you provided- it is their Customer Service number. The recorded message says that they are currently experiencing technical difficulties, and you should contact your local dealer. It doesn't say that they are "flooded with calls and are not taking any more."

Their website also states the following:
Your local Honda dealer is the first stop for any questions or concerns about your U.S. Honda vehicle. This includes product recall and campaign information.


I talked to the Honda dealer about this, but they will not cover this because they say that my indicators: Electric Power Steering (EPS) Indicator or Malfunction Indicator Lamp are not on.
Really?
 

·
Elvira - the car
Joined
·
3,599 Posts
I have a baaaad feeling the OP is stuck going in a counter-clockwise circle, and can't stop.

Any update @krisdev25 ? Did it fix itself or did you park it till you can bring it in?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I have a baaaad feeling the OP is stuck going in a counter-clockwise circle, and can't stop.

Any update @krisdev25 ? Did it fix itself or did you park it till you can bring it in?
I'm still debugging this. It is on and off. Sometimes the steering wheel is light and sometimes it wants to spin left. No indicators on the dash. It has gotten better over time. When I left the dealer I had to hold on tight to steering wheel. Now, it doesn't always happen.

Looking into electrical, maybe ground problem. As you can image the dealership is not really into sharing any information. They are more than willing to charge me $146.00 for a diagnostic. I am OK with doing it, the problem I have is that if I am paying for it I want to know how they arrived at their diagnosis.

I have a baaaad feeling the OP is stuck going in a counter-clockwise circle, and can't stop.

Any update @krisdev25 ? Did it fix itself or did you park it till you can bring it in?
@Miker , do you have the same 2013 Honda Accord? Can you help me out with some voltage measurements:

I want to verify that the voltages are correct. It could be that a subtle voltage drop is causing this (maybe a bad ground).
 

·
Elvira - the car
Joined
·
3,599 Posts
@Miker , do you have the same 2013 Honda Accord? Can you help me out with some voltage measurements:

I want to verify that the voltages are correct. It could be that a subtle voltage drop is causing this (maybe a bad ground).
I do not.. Mine is a V6 but I will state that the output of the alternator is not always 13.8-14 VDC because if the battery is fully charged the ECU will shut off the alternator and only output about 12.6- 12.8 WHILE running. Turn on AC or fan on high or turn headlights on and then it will output 14.4 VDC.

There is a system called the ELD Electronic Load Detection that performs this task.

Where and when are you measuring these voltages? At the battery?(of course with neg off post) but how about the rest of the measures?

Like the manual states that 14v is when the car is started and it is in PARK. When the car is in PARK the alt will output 14v but put it into D (6 speed auto) and it will drop to 12.8v.

Now I have measured the output through the cigar lighter socket. Here is what I found (voltages are lower due to measurement point at lighter socket)......

Start engine in P output is 14.3v no lights,AC or fan
Put into D or R and output is 12.6v no lights AC or fan
As long as road speed is rising, output only goes to 12.8v
As soon as road speed drops (foot off accel) and coasting the alternator outputs up to 14v
I cannot definitively state with utmost confidence the next statement as I can't find Honda supplied proof but MY observations are...

I believe the alt won't output 14v during the acceleration or steady drive portion to keep the alt drag off the engine for fuel economy.
Slow down (No brakes just slow down coast) and the alt turns back to 14V
During coasting down IF I step on gas even blipping it, it goes back to 12.6v thinking that I need full output of the engine without the drag of the alt.
Step on brakes to idle at a stop and output drops to 12.6v

At any time I turn on headlights or AC or cabin fan on high and the output goes up to 14.3v and STAYS there until I turn any of them off.

It's all a fuel savings thing. When I observed these voltages during the scenarios above it almost mimicked regenerative braking and I don't have a hybrid.

TL;DR :Your voltage measurements make sense and I see nothing wrong with them.

ALL these voltages are contingent on a fully charged strong starting battery and around 70F ambient. Numbers change at different points IF the battery is low on charge or it is cold. The system attempts to measure the battery charge state and adjust the Alt as needed.
 

·
2010 2.4EX
Joined
·
174 Posts
@Miker , do you have the same 2013 Honda Accord?
Can you help me out with some voltage measurements:

I want to verify that the voltages are correct. It could be that a subtle
voltage drop is causing this (maybe a bad ground).

All this needless complication, to save what: up to one mile per gallon? More like one half mpg...

Sounds about as useful and sensible as Daylight 'Saving' Time!

Their website also states the following: Your local Honda dealer is the first stop for any questions or concerns about your U.S. Honda vehicle. This includes product recall and campaign information.
Your local Honda(or any other carmaker) dealer is a gatekeeper intended to shield Honda/other makers from taking any responsibility. Exemplified below.....

As you can image the dealership is not really into sharing any information. They are more than willing to charge me $146.00 for a diagnostic.
Attempting to dodge responsibility for a problem they know exists.

Hyundai operated in similar fashion with regards to EPS issues on its 2011-14 Sonata and some Elantras.
 

·
Elvira - the car
Joined
·
3,599 Posts
All this needless complication, to save what: up to one mile per gallon? More like one half mpg...

Sounds about as useful and sensible as Daylight 'Saving' Time!
Preachin' to the choir brother!

I don't even think it adds up to that. Could be measured if you know hp lost from alternator.

These are the times we live in. Complicate the bejesus over everything to eek out 0.1 mpg but create expensive repair bills when all the complications go awry.

Not only that, this system tends to destroy batteries needlessly so all that lead plate recycling probably creates more "pollution" than the miniscule MPG gain. My belief is bad charging system weakens batteries quicker.
 
  • Like
Reactions: enne and The_K_Man

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #10

go to the #2 post by @drowned12 and look at the attachment explaining the steering pull troubleshooting procedure. Read the last line where it states they need to do the torque sensor neutral memorization procedure.

shows what is required to reset it using that specific equipment. Notice that he also goes into the section that covers the ABS,VSA etc that you say happens to you occasionally.

Unbelievable the Honda places didn't recognize the problem as it appears to happen if suspension parts are replaced or if alignment was performed.

Good luck
@Miker , thank you for your response. I appreciate what you posted, it is a solution to a problem, but I am not sure it is the solution to my problem. I want to root cause the problem before applying solutions.

I don't understand why a calibration of the steering angle sensor would need to be done. I can see it being done if the sensor was replaced or if the steering was moved somehow with battery disconnected, but this is hard to do with steering column being locked.

Since making this post a few days ago I've been observing the problem. I noticed that the vehicle only does this in the morning when I start it up (or if it is sitting for a long time without use). When I drive the vehicle for a 'long' time it is no longer a problem. On the weekends when I am driving a lot to run errands and such, the problem goes away in the evening. It has something to do with the run-time of the vehicle. In fact, after I drive the car a lot the problem goes away. I can let go of the steering wheel on an empty level road and it just goes in a straight line. This tells me it is not an alignment issue. Now, I need to narrow it down further.

I need to narrow down run-time. I need to find out: does it have to do with something being warmed up by the engine? Does it have to do with engine RPM? Does it have to do with me driving until the steering wheel is turned all the way to the right or left (full rotation)?

This is also simple computer input and output. The "steering torque sensor" and "steering angle sensor" are input values. The vehicle computer takes these values and uses them to drive the motor at a particular direction and speed.
521819



I'm need to be able to see the sensor readings in both cases. When the problem exists and when it disappears. This information is available through OBD II Parameter IDs (PIDs). I need some tool that will read this live data and show it to me.

I'm not a professional mechanic, so I can't spent $3,000-$5,000 for a tool, but something simple that connects to a PC via dongle or BlueDriver maybe. Would you know of a simple and not so expensive tool for live data reading or recommend one?
 

·
2010 2.4EX
Joined
·
174 Posts
I don't understand why a calibration of the steering
angle sensor would need to be done.
It's sort of like establishing straight-ahead when you calibrate it.

It should also be done after a wheel alignment, so the EPS doesn't try to "correct" for the new/corrected alignment angles.

Sort of like calibrating the compass app on your phone so it knows which way North is!

All in all, it needlessly complicates one of the most basic yet intuitive and important functions of any vehicle: being able to steer it and get feedback of what you're doing - all for the sake of keeping up to half a gallon extra gas in your tank by next fill-up time.

But I don't know if SAS(steering angle sensor) calibration is applicable in your case - or something deeper.

By the way, I stupidly bought a 2011-14 Gen Sonata five years ago with my total payment from my previous wreck. The overboosted EPS on that beauty felt like driving on ICE, plus, it would slowly bind to one side or the other, especially on highways at 60mph.

It was a two-handed nightmare requiring constant steering wheel correction to stay in lane, and Hyundai never owed up to it, even if it affected 10% of all Sonatas sold from 2011-14. Three alignments and SAS resets over a period of two months, and I got out of that car!

The steering on my 2010 Accord EX, while light, is centered and communicative, and is good old hydraulic conventional!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
447 Posts
I'm going to offer a WAG here, and propose that the problem is caused by a faulty electrical connection to one or more of the sensors (but possibly only one would need to be faulty). Your description of how the problem manifests is what makes me think this. If a connection is faulty, when it is cold it will not conduct current properly and will send a faulty signal to the EPS control unit. Virtually ALL of these systems use voltage values to interpret as things to react to, and, to correct. As the car is driven, things warm up, and possibly there is maybe a tiny bit of movement in a faulty connection that improves conductivity, restoring the sensor voltage value(s) to "normal".

Now, I have NO knowledge of this particular system, but I'd carefully examine ALL connections to the steering sensors. Possibly, just unplugging them and replugging them in would be all that is needed. Additionally, is there some kind of grounding wire that may have a faulty connection to the car's frame?

I doubt a sensor would self-correct if it was faulty.

This all sounds to me much like the way faulty O2 and transmission sensor values behave when there is a poor circuit connection.

- Jack
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I checked all the EPS connectors on the under of the car and they were fine. No dirt or corrosion. Unplugged the connectors, looked inside, and plugged them back in.

Yesterday, I decided to do a tire rotation. Put the "back tires in the front" and "the front tires in the back". I noticed that the front tires are wearing a lot on the inside of the the tire, much more than the outside. I put several hundred miles on since I had my vehicle serviced (ball joint replacement):
521880


The rear tire tread is very even. Since rotating the tires, the steering wheel turning left problem is happening all the time again. Before it would go away after about 30 minutes of driving. I'm wondering if this is an alignment problem. Meaning, the dealership replaced the ball joint and now there is a misalignment that is causing this.

The 2013 Honda Accord service instructions/manual titled "Front Knuckle Ball Joint Removal and Installation" state the wheel alignment should be checked. Here is the excerpt, step "8.Wheel Alignment - Check", it states "Check the wheel alignment, and adjust if necessary":
521881


The Honda dealership never said anything about verifying the wheel alignment. Or even suggested that this is something I need to do. Would anyone know the following:
  • Can any Honda dealer do a wheel alignment (or have the tools to do it properly)?
  • Would a misalignment cause the steering wheel to spin to the right like this?
  • Would I need to go to a special wheel alignment shop with a laser machine or would the dealership have this setup?
I will call around to ask and get quotes.
 

·
2010 2.4EX
Joined
·
174 Posts
I'm wondering if this is an alignment problem. Meaning, the
dealership replaced the ball joint and now there is a
misalignment that is causing this
You nailed it!

Of course it's a misalignment issue that's causing your steering wheel to occasionally turn itself all the way to the left stop.... 🤦‍♂️



..If the thing was in a really major knock-the-Earth-out-of orbit crash totally fouling up your front end!

Wrrrrrong.

But please go ahead and ignore the wooly mammoth in the room - the EPS.

Next, please!

In all seriousness: if the dealers are not willing to admit this, and properly rectify the isse instead of throwing suspension parts and alignments at it, then I do believe you have a small claims matter, or need to get the BBB involved. Save all paperwork related to the steering, including the needless alignments, any voice mails from the service dept. Take photos of any parts replaced, including steering parts. You will need all of this either in court or with the Better Business Bureau.
 

·
Runnin' in the 90s
Joined
·
6,163 Posts
The car is 7 years old, you don't have to take it to a dealership anymore.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
14,431 Posts
I called American Honda at 1-800-999-1009, but the recording says that they are flooded with calls and are not taking any more.
Phone number works for me....humans will answer.

The car is 7 years old, you don't have to take it to a dealership anymore.
Bingo.
 

·
2010 2.4EX
Joined
·
174 Posts
The car is 7 years old, you don't have to
take it to a dealership anymore.
Yes, but isn't a car mfg. still responsible when the Electric Power Steering on one of their products decides to go all Tourettes on someone while they're driving?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Another update...

@The_K_Man and @RickBlaine , I agree with you both. I don't have to take it to the dealership for service. I prefer to do oil changes and car work myself because I am a hands-on person. It is also beneficial to understand what the problems are with the cars for next car purchase. The way this is going, it is not going to be Honda. The last car I had was a Chevrolet Colorado for 325,000 miles (no ball-joint or steering problems). I wanted to do the ball joint work myself, but there is special Honda tools involved and going from parts store to parts store renting tools was getting to be too much (especially with full-time job). For these cars they designed the ball joint into the knuckle, which is ridiculous. They should have put it in the lower control arm.

@RickBlaine , thank you. I called the number on 1-800-999-1009 and I am no longer getting a recording saying that they are not taking calls. Sat on wait for 1 hour and gave up (hung up) on Friday (06/26/2020). I will call again on Monday and Tuesday.

I called a person (on the website) at Hunter Engineering Company because they sell all of the alignment laser machines (HawkEye Elite) to shops all over the Chicago area. Well some of the machines are also Snap-On. The sales person asked me about what type of vehicle and I told him I'm looking for someone that is not 'wishy-washy' about alignment. I'm willing to pay for the check and also pay if they think something needs fixing. He recommended DeRe Tire (8843 W 159th St. Orland Hills, IL 60487), so I went there.

I setup an appointment with DeRe Tire & Auto to get an alignment check done, they did it and printed out the following report: Alignment_2013HondaAccord_Check_NoVin.pdf. They said there was a small alignment adjustment and whether they should do it. I said yes. Waited for 1.5 hours and finally they finished. They gave me the following report: Alignment_2013HondaAccord_WorkBeforeAfter_NoVin.pdf. When I drove the car to them the steering wheel was spinning to the left. When they returned the car it wasn't anymore. I thought that this had fixed it. The next morning, still the same issue, the steering wheel wants to spin to the left. I'm not sure that up to 0.22 degrees would make a difference. The person at DeRe Tire & Auto said the tires would not be wearing unevenly, so I will just monitor it. At least I did the alignment, just as the Honda recommends after a ball-joint replacement.

Once again, after 30 minutes of normal and highway driving the steering wheel spinning goes away. Need to debug further. More spending money on solutions versus determining a root cause. I need a decent computerdiagnostics tool.
 

Attachments

·
2010 2.4EX
Joined
·
174 Posts
Another update...

@The_K_Man and @RickBlaine , I agree with you both. I don't have to take it to the dealership for service. I prefer to do oil changes and car work myself because I am a hands-on person. It is also beneficial to understand what the problems are with the cars for next car purchase. The way this is going, it is not going to be Honda. The last car I had was a Chevrolet Colorado for 325,000 miles (no ball-joint or steering problems). I wanted to do the ball joint work myself, but there is special Honda tools involved and going from parts store to parts store renting tools was getting to be too much (especially with full-time job). For these cars they designed the ball joint into the knuckle, which is ridiculous. They should have put it in the lower control arm.

@RickBlaine , thank you. I called the number on 1-800-999-1009 and I am no longer getting a recording saying that they are not taking calls. Sat on wait for 1 hour and gave up (hung up) on Friday (06/26/2020). I will call again on Monday and Tuesday.

I called a person (on the website) at Hunter Engineering Company because they sell all of the alignment laser machines (HawkEye Elite) to shops all over the Chicago area. Well some of the machines are also Snap-On. The sales person asked me about what type of vehicle and I told him I'm looking for someone that is not 'wishy-washy' about alignment. I'm willing to pay for the check and also pay if they think something needs fixing. He recommended DeRe Tire (8843 W 159th St. Orland Hills, IL 60487), so I went there.

I setup an appointment with DeRe Tire & Auto to get an alignment check done, they did it and printed out the following report: Alignment_2013HondaAccord_Check_NoVin.pdf. They said there was a small alignment adjustment and whether they should do it. I said yes. Waited for 1.5 hours and finally they finished. They gave me the following report: Alignment_2013HondaAccord_WorkBeforeAfter_NoVin.pdf. When I drove the car to them the steering wheel was spinning to the left. When they returned the car it wasn't anymore. I thought that this had fixed it. The next morning, still the same issue, the steering wheel wants to spin to the left. I'm not sure that up to 0.22 degrees would make a difference. The person at DeRe Tire & Auto said the tires would not be wearing unevenly, so I will just monitor it. At least I did the alignment, just as the Honda recommends after a ball-joint replacement.

Once again, after 30 minutes of normal and highway driving the steering wheel spinning goes away. Need to debug further. More spending money on solutions versus determining a root cause. I need a decent computerdiagnostics tool.
After-Alignment looks good!

Did they reset SAS(steering angle sensor) after doing that alignment? I asked my aligner if they did SAS on my 2013 Hyundai Sonata and they had to look up online how to do it. But I waited the extra 20 minutes. The steering wheel still 'binded' at certain points when travelling straight ahead on the highway, and in a few months I had traded it toward another car.

I'm going to offer a WAG here, and propose that the problem is caused by a faulty electrical connection to one or more of the sensors (but possibly only one would need to be faulty). Your description of how the problem manifests is what makes me think this. If a connection is faulty, when it is cold it will not conduct current properly and will send a faulty signal to the EPS control unit. Virtually ALL of these systems use voltage values to interpret as things to react to, and, to correct. As the car is driven, things warm up, and possibly there is maybe a tiny bit of movement in a faulty connection that improves conductivity, restoring the sensor voltage value(s) to "normal".

Now, I have NO knowledge of this particular system, but I'd carefully examine ALL connections to the steering sensors. Possibly, just unplugging them and replugging them in would be all that is needed. Additionally, is there some kind of grounding wire that may have a faulty connection to the car's frame?

I doubt a sensor would self-correct if it was faulty.

This all sounds to me much like the way faulty O2 and transmission sensor values behave when there is a poor circuit connection.

- Jack
What is a "WAG"?

Frikn' acronyms....!
 
1 - 20 of 92 Posts
Top