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2010 2.4EX
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I'm going to offer a WAG here, and propose that the problem is caused by a faulty electrical connection to one or more of the sensors (but possibly only one would need to be faulty). Your description of how the problem manifests is what makes me think this. If a connection is faulty, when it is cold it will not conduct current properly and will send a faulty signal to the EPS control unit. Virtually ALL of these systems use voltage values to interpret as things to react to, and, to correct. As the car is driven, things warm up, and possibly there is maybe a tiny bit of movement in a faulty connection that improves conductivity, restoring the sensor voltage value(s) to "normal".

Now, I have NO knowledge of this particular system, but I'd carefully examine ALL connections to the steering sensors. Possibly, just unplugging them and replugging them in would be all that is needed. Additionally, is there some kind of grounding wire that may have a faulty connection to the car's frame?

I doubt a sensor would self-correct if it was faulty.

This all sounds to me much like the way faulty O2 and transmission sensor values behave when there is a poor circuit connection.

- Jack
What is a "WAG"?

Frikn' acronyms....!
 

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Discussion Starter #22
@The_K_Man , when I asked DeRe Tire & Auto what they would do exactly he seemed like he didn't want to say exactly, but said they adjust the rods (steering rods maybe). I'm assuming they did a mechanical adjustment only. I highly doubt they reset the steering angle sensor.

This is a 2013 Honda Accord EX-L 4 cly. CVT with Navigation System. It is not a BMW M3 in the sense that it doesn't really have infinite adjustments to make the handling amazing. In fact, they can't really do too much adjustment on this simple type of suspension.

I sent the service representative at Continental Honda (5901 South La Grange Road, Countryside, IL 60525) a question (via e-mail) asking if they did a alignment check after the ball-joint replacement. No response at all. He wants me to pay $150.00 for a diagnostic check. This isn't a problem for me, I just want to know what they are doing exactly. The last time I went to a dealer in 2018 for a Charge System Fault, they told me I needed a new alternator and it would cost $760.00. I took the car home removed the battery, had it tested and it was bad battery. Replaced the battery and everything was fine. These guys at the dealership can't be trusted. I first need to understand what needs to be done and only ask for a specific repair. Otherwise, it will turn into a never ending expensive expedition.

I just bought an OBD2 tool. I'm going to see if I can read steering angle sensor or torque sensor with it.
 

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2010 2.4EX
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112 Posts
hen I asked DeRe Tire & Auto what they would do exactly he
seemed like he didn't want to say exactly, but said they adjust
the rods (steering rods maybe). I'm assuming they did a mechanical
adjustment only. I highly doubt they reset the steering angle sensor.
🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️!

Take it back there - or just take it anywhere, and have that SAS recalibrated!!

If that shop "won't say exactly" what they did, then FIND A SHOP THAT WILL.

You have an EPS(Electric Power-assist Steering) system in that year Accord, and I'm assuming some form of Vehicle Stability Assist, BOTH of which rely on the SAS to function properly.

Do not reply back here until you have had that reset. Like I said before, no amount of mis-alignment could make that steering wheel turn itself all the way to one side like that.

In the mean time, here's your homework assignment - read:

Ready. Reset. Go. Steering Angle Sensor Calibration. | Delphi Auto Parts

Here's a transcript - see? People are trying to help you! Listen to them!

"Steering angle sensors (SAS) are nothing new. In fact, they’ve been around since the early 1990’s. With advances in Electronic Stability Control (ESC) systems, however, the need to reset them after routine maintenance has only recently become a necessity. Whilst this will add another step to most steering jobs, it also represents a potentially profitable service opportunities for garages in the know. Here we take a closer look at the SAS, what it does, why you need to reset it and even what to look out for in a failing sensor. So, you can be ready on your next steering job, to reset and go….

What is a steering angle sensor?
In the past decade or so, manufacturers have added a number of sensors to the vehicle’s steering system. One of these is the SAS, typically found in multiples inside the steering column. An integral part of the vehicle’s stability control system, it provides an accurate reading on the position of the wheels and rate of turn. It also works with the yaw, accelerometer and wheel speed sensors to measure the dynamics of the vehicle; what the vehicle is doing, what the driver wants the vehicle to do, and what corrections need to be made by the ABS hydraulic control unit to maintain control of the vehicle.

How do steering angle sensors work?
There are two main types of SAS; analogue and digital, the latter fitted to most modern vehicles. Analogue sensors are wired with a 5-volt reference, chassis ground and signal output. As the wheel is turned full circle, it produces a signal between 0 and 5 volts. The difference in voltage is used to determine the rate of turn and angle. Digital sensors, however, use a LED light to measure the rate of turn, the angle of the wheel, the direction of the turn and other important information.

Either way, if the SAS detects an inconsistency between the steering wheel’s position and the direction in which the vehicle is travelling, then the stability control system will kick in to help the driver maintain control of the vehicle. For example, if understeer occurs, it will automatically apply the rear brake on the inside of the vehicle to correct the problem.

Do steering sensors fail?

Whilst SAS are designed to last the lifetime of a vehicle, just like other electronic components, they are subject to wear and tear. They can also be damaged when working on other parts of the vehicle such as the power steering wheel. So, it pays to be familiar with the common symptoms of a faulty sensor just in case. Common signs to look out for include:

• Warning light comes on: when the SAS fails, it will trigger a stability system related warning light on the dashboard, indicating that the system has been disabled and requires servicing. On most cars this will be the traction control light but could also be the check engine light.

• Travel in the steering wheel: if a SAS is faulty or misaligned, it can send inaccurate information to the electronic control unit (ECU). This can cause the vehicle’s stability control system to provide incorrect steering adjustments, resulting in either a loose steering wheel, or the steering not responding in the way it should.

Why do you need to perform a steering angle sensor reset?
Since vehicles equipped with ESC, Advanced Driver Assistance Systems (ADAS) such as Lane Keep Assist (LKA) and Autonomous Emergency Braking (AEB), and other safety features, rely on accurate from the SAS, it is now necessary to reset them after performing a wheel alignment or replacing a component that can alter the toe and thrust angle. This will ensure these systems know exactly how the vehicle is traveling down the road in order to both predict, and make, the necessary safety corrections. If the SAS is out of calibration, and the angle is too far off, then the vehicle’s stability system will not function correctly, and ultimately will be disabled.

How do you reset the steering angle sensor?

Whilst the procedure to do this can differ significantly between manufacturers and models, there are several main methods of calibrating the SAS with the other sensors that make up these systems:

• Self-calibration: Some newer vehicles, can self-calibrate or auto calibrate by turning the steering wheel from lock to lock to centre and then cycling the key. Others will also have a set of commands that need to be performed for the calibration to initiate.

• Test drive: Newer vehicles with more advanced wheel speed sensors may automatically reset their own steering angle sensor the next time the vehicle is driven in a straight line for a set period. This is usually just a few seconds at motorway speed.

• Diagnostic scan tool reset: A scan tool reset may be required on some vehicles. Some alignment systems even have the SAS reset function built into it, eliminating the need for a separate diagnostic procedure after an alignment.

Most manufacturers recommend that steering angle sensor calibration is performed on the ground, versus a lift. When in doubt, always refer to the manufacturer's service manual for the correct procedure.

Just remember, whatever the vehicle, and whichever procedure they specify, steering angle reset should now be part of your standard alignment and your customer charged accordingly – providing yet another value-added service for independent garages."
 

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I don't.

do.

acronyms.
I see. So when you posted "SAS", "EPS", "LED", "ECU" and so on in the post before the one where you made this statement, that was someone impersonating you using your screen name? And, in case you point out that you used the entire name BEFORE using the abbreviations, you didn't, when it seemed it wasn't needed. I thought anyone beyond grade school age knew the meaning of "WAG", so I didn't bother to define it.

Not trying to start a fight here, I was happy to explain the meaning of WAG to you.

Your last post to krisdev25 was excellent and very helpful, by the way. I hope he follows your advice.

- Jack
 

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2010 2.4EX
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112 Posts
I see. So when you posted "SAS", "EPS", "LED", "ECU" and so on in the post before the one where you made this statement, that was someone impersonating you using your screen name? And, in case you point out that you used the entire name BEFORE using the abbreviations, you didn't, when it seemed it wasn't needed. I thought anyone beyond grade school age knew the meaning of "WAG", so I didn't bother to define it.

Not trying to start a fight here, I was happy to explain the meaning of WAG to you.

Your last post to krisdev25 was excellent and very helpful, by the way. I hope he follows your advice.

- Jack
Those are TECHNICAL acronyms. And if you scroll back early on, you'll notice I include what they stand for, in parentheses. Context, Jack.

What I am against is this 21st century proliferation of what I term 'social' acronyms, and the millennial propensity to abbreviate entire sentences. "IKR", "AFAIK", "IIRC", "C3POLADYGAGA", etc.

All of which one can type in full, if they're not lazy.

Nothing personal, Jack. I call out "JJD"s, "WDERS", and "KEIRFJSAJWMDJDZZLAQWEJDZ" wherever I encounter them. ;) ;)
 

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OK, then. I'll just mention you DID use SAS twice, by itself before using it with it's full name Steering Angle Sensor. That is not good technical writing practice. You used "ABS" and "LED" without defining them. Let's see, ABS - that must mean "Absolute Buffer Synchronization", right? And LED - "Lateral Effort Device"?

Sure, I'm being ridiculous now - Everyone should know the meanings of ABS and LED, But, I've used WAG for so long now and been around others that used it that I thought it was a term in general usage. I see now it was a term used primarily by the military, where I spent 20 years of my adult life. Forgive me, I TRY to write clearly and it's obvious I've failed. Like you, I abhor "tweet" speak. I appreciate your calling me out on my unclear communication.

As I said earlier, I'm not interested in starting a fight and your advice to the Original Poster (OP) was perfect.

- Jack
 

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Discussion Starter #35
@The_K_Man , I will call and ask about doing a EPS (Electric Power Steering) on Monday to see what the prices are. There are tools out there that can be bought. If it is more than $150, I can just buy a OBD2 tool and do it myself.

I did buy a recently new tool that came on the market, the THINKCAR 1. The several other tools (handhelds and USB PC tools) I purchased over the years don't work with this model, 2013 Honda Accord. Take a look at the output of the tool, I've attached it as: THINKCAR_1_Scan_2013HondaAccord.pdf. It is reporting at some point:

DTC 85-01 Problemin VSA System
DTC U0029-00 F-CAN Malfunction (Bus-Off)
DTC U0416-68 VSA Brake Actuator Malfunction


Using the Clear DTC option got rid of DTC B12D1 Power Control Unit IG1B Circuit Error. The other codes are not getting cleared. I will follow-up with THINKCAR about it. I might need to upgrade to THINKDRIVER or THINKDIAG to be able to perform a calibration.

Is anyone familiar with these DTC codes? I am not getting anything on my dash lighting up. The next step is to determine if the DTCs listed is something pre-recorded at some previous time (like a timestamp). It could be that I just can't clear these with the particular tool. I also don't see anything in the menu for doing the steering angle sensor calibration.
 

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2010 2.4EX
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112 Posts
@The_K_Man , I will call and ask about doing a EPS (Electric Power Steering) on Monday to see what the prices are. There are tools out there that can be bought. If it is more than $150, I can just buy a OBD2 tool and do it myself.

I did buy a recently new tool that came on the market, the THINKCAR 1. The several other tools (handhelds and USB PC tools) I purchased over the years don't work with this model, 2013 Honda Accord. Take a look at the output of the tool, I've attached it as: THINKCAR_1_Scan_2013HondaAccord.pdf. It is reporting at some point:

DTC 85-01 Problemin VSA System
DTC U0029-00 F-CAN Malfunction (Bus-Off)
DTC U0416-68 VSA Brake Actuator Malfunction


Using the Clear DTC option got rid of DTC B12D1 Power Control Unit IG1B
Circuit Error
. The other codes are not getting cleared. I will follow-up with
THINKCAR about it. I might need to upgrade to THINKDRIVER or THINKDIAG
to be able to perform a calibration.

Is anyone familiar with these DTC codes? I am not getting anything on my
dash lighting up. The next step is to determine if the DTCs listed is something
pre-recorded at some previous time (like a timestamp). It could be that I just
can't clear these with the particular tool. I also don't see anything in the
menu for doing the steering angle sensor calibration.

Good job doing some diagnostics on your own. So it's not (entirely) your steering - it's your VSA(Vehicle Stability Assist)!!

DAMN that VSA, seriously. Three weeks ago, my right rear brake seized up, causing my brake pedal to go completely to the ground(let alone the floor!). I drove right to my local garage, the guy racked up the car, we spun the left rear, couldn't spin the right rear. Got it back on the ground, car had no problem with brakes in reverse. He ordered a new caliper, which we made an appt to put in the following week.

Over the intervening weekend, after stumbling across a VSA issue someone had here in DriveAccord Forums, I drove in low gear, VSA OFF, to a nearby school lot. I drove around, forward, reverse, VSA back on, VSA off, could not repeat the collapsing brake pedal!

Am I glad to have had the caliper replaced? Sure! Do I think it was the problem? Jury's out on that one!

Point being, I suspect VSA was/is giving both of us a headache. Modern Vehicle Stability Assist utilizes a variety of sensors and inputs(throttle position, engine rpms, wheel rpms, brake inputs, steering input) in order to perform its role, ostensibly, of keeping you headed in the right direction when accelerating, braking, and in turns. In short, it's an 'electronic nanny', designed by imperfect humans, to go on the digital rag every so often!

In your specific matter, since your diagnostics flagged VSA, among others, it seems the VSA might be sending spurious signal to your steering motor, causing your steering wheel to go all doii-doii-duhrrrr! :D

Unless it's raining, snowing, or the road is wet or full of leaves, I turn my VSA OFF before putting my babe in drive and leaving the driveway or car park - every time.

All that said: Now you know what to do next. If weather at time of your next drive is dry and fair, press the button to disable the VSA on your Accord, then drive off and see if the steering wheel still turns itself all the way to one side. If it does, back to square one. If not, then you've isolated the culprit: time for your VSA to be worked on. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #37
@Miker , can you look at post I just made with the THINKCAR 1 OBD2 tool and let me know what you think?

If I should still do the steering angle calibration after seeing this.
 

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Elvira - the car
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3,511 Posts
@Miker , can you look at post I just made with the THINKCAR 1 OBD2 tool and let me know what you think?

If I should still do the steering angle calibration after seeing this.
I'm going to agree with @The_K_Man and try the VSA button since you now have codes pointing at that system.
This may confound things and appear to not affect he steering calibration but if you are asking for my opinion I'd personally wait to calibrate.
But.....

I believe the VSA, when there is a noticed "slip" (like the back end will swing out in snow) it will apply brakes to get it back into line. See below.

If the yaw control that looks at that fishtailing tries to correct a non-existent problem it might be causing the brakes to apply on one side or the other. Specifically on the driver side causing the "left" turn. Seems possible!!!
521951


MAYBE this is what is happening here now that we know there is a VSA problem.

And maybe I missed this earlier but do you literally mean the steering wheel turns off center or the car itself pulls to the left with the wheel centered. EDIT: yeah, I did miss this.

As it appears to "fix" itself occasionally after driving a while, a mechanical tire/wheel mis-alignment probably is not the root cause.

Also notice the VSA brake motor malfunction code? in your output?

I'm opining that there may be a brake engagement thing going on here.

EDIT: rereading the OP your DRIVERS side was replaced so maybe they f'd something up on that side to affect the VSA motor/ABS sensor, etc.
 

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2010 2.4EX
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112 Posts
I'm going to agree with @The_K_Man and try the VSA button since you now have codes pointing at that system.
This may confound things and appear to not affect he steering calibration but if you are asking for my opinion I'd personally wait to calibrate.
But.....

I believe the VSA, when there is a noticed "slip" (like the back end will swing out in snow) it will apply brakes to get it back into line. See below.

If the yaw control that looks at that fishtailing tries to correct a non-existent problem it might be causing the brakes to apply on one side or the other. Specifically on the driver side causing the "left" turn. Seems possible!!! View attachment 521951

MAYBE this is what is happening here now that we know there is a VSA problem.

And maybe I missed this earlier but do you literally mean the steering wheel turns off center or the car itself pulls to the left with the wheel centered. EDIT: yeah, I did miss this.

As it appears to "fix" itself occasionally after driving a while, a mechanical tire/wheel mis-alignment probably is not the root cause.

Also notice the VSA brake motor malfunction code? in your output?

I'm opining that there may be a brake engagement thing going on here.

EDIT: rereading the OP your DRIVERS side was replaced so maybe they f'd something up on that side to affect the VSA motor/ABS sensor, etc.

And all of the above is why I long for older, simpler cars, with fewer complexities like these. When one goes wrong, as in Krisdev's VSA, and possibly mine with regards to that caliper, it often has ramifications for other systems in a vehicle, such as the steering or braking.

The ultimate ABS/VSA/TPMS, and blind spot detection, exists between the seat and steering wheel!
 

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Or maybe it's vice versa? Is VSA alerting because the steering angle isn't correct so VSA is disengaged/disabled?

Just another W.A.G...
 
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