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Discussion Starter #1
I like turning fast. If there's anyone else that's like-minded that might have experimented with a few suspension setups, I'd like it if you can guide me.

From reading around the forum, I've seen a lot of people recommending the TL sway bars. Is there such thing as making the chassis too stiff?? Would it be overdoing it if I got some of those Ultra chassis supports? Strut bars? I hear a lot of good things about tein basics. I planned on going with 18x8 wheels with Yokohama Envigor. I do still have to be able to make it over speed bumps. So how low should I go? A rough ride does not bother me. Oh and please don't flame me for driving quickly. My car is a 4 banger and I mostly just try to maintain a high speed cause that's all you can really do. I understand the dangers of the road, I learned on my motorcycle which by the way is ridiculously fast and got me addicted to turns. Well thanks for going through my halfway coherent paragraph.
 

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Going low is more for looks, sure the CofG is reduced, but bang for the bucks you are much better off to spend the $200 in Acura OEM sway bar, bushings, brackets, you will not get a more cost effective mod than this.
 

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mobiless2
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+1 on TL-S Sway Bars

For Strut Bar just get the OEM bar for a V6-6 speed.

Tires 225/45/18 or 235/45/18

Lowering Springs & Struts for 1 - 2" lowering, Coilovers for 2" +

TSX Manifold, Header, Exhaust, Pulleys for Extra weight of 18"
 

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2016 Nissan Maxima Platnm
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Good luck with speeding through turns. Read the following thread. He had the upgraded sway bars, etc., and he still lost control and almost totaled his Accord. Thankfully there was no oncoming traffic so he did not injure anyone else. The upgrades did nothing to improve the handling. So if all you do is speed, you have no consideration for anyone else's safety on the road. Hospitals have a saying for people like you, organ donors. Have some consideration for other people on the road.

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=53353
 

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^ That Accord IS totaled. The insurance already considered it when they open it up.
 

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Good luck with speeding through turns. Read the following thread. He had the upgraded sway bars, etc., and he still lost control and almost totaled his Accord. Thankfully there was no oncoming traffic so he did not injure anyone else. The upgrades did nothing to improve the handling. So if all you do is speed, you have no consideration for anyone else's safety on the road. Hospitals have a saying for people like you, organ donors. Have some consideration for other people on the road.

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=53353
Here we go...

This is the only person I have seen who has crashed "because of his rear sway bar". It is also possible he would have crashed no matter what suspension mods he had on his car, did you think of that?

I know a lot more people who have crashed with OEM wheels and tires than larger diameter rear sway bars. Maybe everyone should get rid of those.

Oh yes, and if I remember correctly that guy bought his car with a salvage title.

OP, you will see a significant improvement in handling with the larger bar in the rear. It is up to you to decide if it is safe or not, but the mod is so cheap you might as well install it and test drive to make the decision. If you don't like it I'm sure you could sell it to someone on here easily.
 

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Hillstones' comment was in reference to exceeding the capability and the car/driver while exploring handling limit, the 20mm RSB by itself contributed to the crash Paperboy experienced, however speed was also a factor along with road conditions and driver skill.

Most if not all of us here on DA are NOT true race car drivers, else we would be racing for a living and wouldn't even be on this forum, we may think we are pretty good, but we are not even close to being top notch expert in vehicle suspension and handling.

While larger rims/tires changes the handling dynamics equally front to rear, larger rear sway bar will increase the oversteer tendency noticeably when performance limit is explored, which is not unusual when suspension improvements are made by folks, myself included.

A friend had shown me how he can get a stock Integra GSR to "oversteer" by going into a fast corner (on a sanctions Solo II course) then back off the throttle just after initial turn in, he then showed me a few weeks later with a Type-R Integra RSB installed on the same car and same tires that the tendency is much more pronounced even with very similar speed and road conditions; from this demonstration I can certainly see how someone can easily be caught off guard and get themselves in a heap of trouble under the wrong circumstances with a large diamter RSB.

There may not have been more people here than Paperboy who had crashed his vehicle with only the 20mm RSB installed, but there had been at least one other member I recall who had come close (Trip, one of our Super Moderator) and perhaps more who had not admitted to it. There are also others who have not had issues with only the 20mm RSB installed, perhaps it is because they are more sensible/responsible and know when not to explore the ultimate handling limit, such as under inclement weather/road conditions, perhaps they had better tires which will also help to mitigate this oversteer tendency better than stock tires at a given speed.

Enjoy some spirited driving after the suspenstion upgrade, but please be sensible and keep safety of yourself and others in mind.
 

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03 Accord coupe Ex 2.4L
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Hillstones' comment was in reference to exceeding the capability and the car/driver while exploring handling limit, the 20mm RSB by itself contributed to the crash Paperboy experienced, however speed was also a factor along with road conditions and driver skill.

Enjoy some spirited driving after the suspenstion upgrade, but please be sensible and keep safety of yourself and others in mind.
^^^Very well put.

OP, Yes you can make the chassis too stiff, you need some flex in the car. As Aviography stated in the first post, the TL sway bars are going to make the most bang for the bucks in suspension. If you choose to do this mod I highly recommend doing both front and back to even out the weight distribution less you just do the 17 mm rear. That is not to say that over or understeering is not still possible. Always use caution when on the road and be courteous to other drives, but being someone who rides, I'm sure you're all too familiar with that last part.
 

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Oh yes, and if I remember correctly that guy bought his car with a salvage title.
why does everyone keep saying my car had a salvaged title? it was involved in a collision before i had bought it but it was NOT a salvaged title.

Hillstones' comment was in reference to exceeding the capability and the car/driver while exploring handling limit, the 22mm RSB by itself contributed to the crash Paperboy experienced, however speed was also a factor along with road conditions and driver skill.
my tl-s rear sway bar was 20mm not 22mm.


some other factors that may be contributed to me losing control of my car may be that i had blown shocks. the shocks i had are from a 2003 I4 accord, i had already bought tokico blue replacements but had not found the time to swap them out.
 

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my tl-s rear sway bar was 20mm not 22mm.
You are correct, it's the thicker one as compared to the standard TL RSB at 17mm, typo was on just one of the two references, since corrected.

For reference the standard Accord RSB is 14mm dia., which means a very significant jump in torisional stiffness going to the 20mm TL-S RSB, and this is why when pushed hard (intentionally or accidentally) the car behaves towards more pronounced oversteer, and why the more balanced approach of installing BOTH TL-S F/R sway bars is preferrable.

Think of the balanced setup vs TL-S RSB only as that extra level of safety margin and insurance against surprises beyond your control.
 

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It took me much experimentation and a thorough understanding of what happens with the rear suspension in the gen 7 Accord, before I got a setup that provides stable, solid handling and little to no tire wear issues.

I bought the car with dealer installed HFP suspension, which is dropped about and inch or a little more than a stock 6 speed coupe. This caused excessive negative camber and toe-out in the rear suspension.

The toe-out is a result of the designed in passive "rear steer" built into the suspension as it's compressed.

Look at it this way, if you're making a hard right turn, the car leans towards the left, the left rear is compressed, it goes negative camber from compression, and the way the links and bushing move add toe out. The right rear, goes positive camber and toes in. This effect, causes the rear of the car to "steer" the rear of the car towards the outside of the turn. This effect isn't really noticeable in a stock suspended Accord.

With the lowering, then my addition of the TL-S 27.2 hollow front bar, and the 20mm rear bar, while leaving the alignment alone was a huge mistake on my part.

Now, with the larger sway bars, Honda's usual design of heavy understeer is being reduced. Add the screwed up rear alignment.... and it's a problem waiting to happen.
I found out the hard way, as a large truck blew a tire in front of me, I swerved to avoid a large chunk heading for my face, and the car made the initial lane change. Unfortunately it also began to oversteer (fish tail) as I got into the left lane, I tried to correct and it violently snapped hard and spun. 6 times I went around, looking at oncoming traffic at the speed I was doing (75) until it slowed enough to head towards the ditch and trees. Luckily I was able to stop the car.

The messed up rear alignment was only allowing a small amount of the rear tires to actually contact the road and the steady state toe out causes a destabilizing effect.

I put a set of better summer tires on, dumping the OEM gripless Michelins and then had the whole car aligned, having the front subframe shifted to get camber where it was acceptable.
With a half tank of fuel:

0 degrees R, .025+ degrees L, caster to wherever it was, toe in front to dead zero. You could toe it in a tiny bit for more stable on center steering, a little toe out if you like better turn in, at the sacrifice of nibble. The rear end I had set camber at -.9, the most positive preferred factory setting, and toe at 3mm total toe IN. Toe in on the rear will improve stability. (my car started at 3 degrees negative camber on one side and almost 4 degrees on the other, with 4 to 5 mm of toe out) Tire pressure on my particular summer tires: 37F 32R

Since then, the car is dead solid stable, the car doesn't exhibit busy or nibbly steering, and if I really push it, it will 4 wheel drift. (in the dry). On very sharp, slower speed corners, I can actually feel the passive rear steer work, you turn, and the car just goes, with a hint of movement where you unwind the steering while still in the turn and put the power on and go. The car will understeer in low traction, wet, dirty or snow as you just can't avoid the forward weight bias.

I've got about 40k on my summer tires, and about 20k on the winters. The summers only show slight inside wear, but is offset by the cornering wear on the outside of the tires. For reference the stock Michelins only lasted 20k before being bald on the inside 4 ribs of the rear tires.

My winter tires, I run them at 34F 32R, they have much stiffer sidewalls than my summers, any higher and I get beat up. Using these in the snow since the alignment changes, the car seems like a mountain goat. I have traction, stability and confidence inspiring feel. Of course I keep the speeds sane, as to not have issues with ice, etc.

You really can't stiffen the chassis too much as a platform for proper suspension tuning, but you can the suspension, too stiff, and it won't be able to conform to larger irregularities and hop around and be disturbed too much.
 

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I don't think you can stiffen up a car too much, but it's about where you stiffen the car up. If you put the TL-S RSB, or some thicker aftermarket RSB, chances are you'll experience snap oversteer, which s what I believe is what happened in Fredsvt's post. However, if you were to add the TL-S FSB as well, you probably would have a car that's more neutral, but still better handling than a stock Accord.
 

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Here we go...

This is the only person I have seen who has crashed "because of his rear sway bar". It is also possible he would have crashed no matter what suspension mods he had on his car, did you think of that?

I know a lot more people who have crashed with OEM wheels and tires than larger diameter rear sway bars. Maybe everyone should get rid of those.

Oh yes, and if I remember correctly that guy bought his car with a salvage title.

OP, you will see a significant improvement in handling with the larger bar in the rear. It is up to you to decide if it is safe or not, but the mod is so cheap you might as well install it and test drive to make the decision. If you don't like it I'm sure you could sell it to someone on here easily.
Hey Furple, read the post. He was SPEEDING. That is what caused the accident. The OP is bragging about his need for speed, with no consideration for anyone on the road. It doesn't matter what he upgrades on his car. If he is going to speed through turns, he will eventually crash.
 

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aman1

My car has both swaybars. If it's lowered as mine is and the rear alignment is not taken care of, you'll still have an unstable, twitchy car that's unpredictable in emergency situations.

You can make the bodyshell (chassis) as stiff as you want, and that's preferable. That way you have a very solid foundation to put a properly tuned suspension on top of it.

The greatest suspension in the world does no good if hooked up to a wet noodle chassis.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Hey Furple, read the post. He was SPEEDING. That is what caused the accident. The OP is bragging about his need for speed, with no consideration for anyone on the road. It doesn't matter what he upgrades on his car. If he is going to speed through turns, he will eventually crash.
Thanks for your concern. I have read about the accident several times now and it sounds like road conditions, an unbalanced car, and on/off throttle contributed to the crash. I am not bragging about my need for speed, I just enjoy feeling the G forces on a turn. I drive with plenty consideration for people on the road. Riding a bike gives you this respect for other drivers/riders. Anyway, enough of me being defensive. The car as it is now understeers a lot, I could not imagine what it would feel like for the car to be so modified that it actually oversteers. Thank you all for your very detailed posts. It looks like whatever I do, i need to make sure the car is neutral.
 

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Neutral with a hint of understeer is preferrable, none of us need to tune our car to be on the ragged edge of 10/10th in handling, or horsepower, or anything, we are not race car drivers, Accords are not race cars, and even race car driver have mis-judged and crashed their race cars, we are no where near their skill and should never pretend that we are.

The best story I read about was an Inday car driver from many years ago who bought a Porsche 930 Turbo from the local dealership only a few blocks away from his house, he went to take delivery of the car but never made it back to the house as he wrapped the brand new 930 Turbo around a tree while going around a corner, obviously going too fast for the car, the road condition, and his own skill.

If this can happen to a top notch Indy car driver, who are we trying to fool that we are any more invincible???
 

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Just because we're not race car drivers doesn't mean we shouldn't try to upgrade our cars for improved handling. Nothing wrong with having fun with the car.

Sorry, but I find that post a bit redundant, Aviography, considering you've got TL-S sway bars.
 

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Just because we're not race car drivers doesn't mean we shouldn't try to upgrade our cars for improved handling. Nothing wrong with having fun with the car.

Sorry, but I find that post a bit redundant, Aviography, considering you've got TL-S sway bars.
Huh? :dunno: When, where, or how did I say or suggest not to upgrade or improve handling suspension? I happen to firmly believe the Accord should have come from the factory with the 17mm RSB from the TL installed, I am also having more fun with my Accord after installing BOTH TL-S sway bars and upgraded the horrible Michelline tires, the car no longers leans like a boat through corners and that just adds driving pleasure with the much improved handling behaviours.

The only point I made, and will continue to make, is to not modify the suspension in a manner that leaves little to no margin for error, or mistakenly think by adding TL-S sway bar(s) and sticky tires will make the Accord or the driver invincible going around corners with impunity.

YOU CANNOT DEFY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS is what I am conveying.

Moderation is the key, as with everything in life, overcooked going into a slippery corner with only the 20mm RSB and nothing else and you are looking at a recipe for disaster.
 

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Hmm. somehow a post I made is missing...

Anyway..

If the car is lowered, and you add the TL bars front and back, the rear alignment should, if not ,must be corrected. The lack of tire contact patch and toe out will lead to what happened to me, at the worst/most important time when you NEED the car to be predictable and safe.

Since the corrected alignment, if I overcook it into a corner, especially wet, it will push.

Dry weather, depending on how I enter a corner will either 4 wheel drift or push slightly.

One thing, if you do put on bars, lower, align, etc. Getting the best tires you can afford, and understand what their limits are is very important.

This is very easy to find out by driving in a low speed situation and pushing the car really hard. You'll know how the tires respond, and if they are forgiving, abrupt and if they make a lot or little noise (squeal) prior to their limits. A note: don't do this with new tires with less than 500 miles on them, as they will have the mold release agent on them, making them somewhat more slippery.

If you can't have a dedicated summer vs winter set of rims/tires, you'll need to go all season high performance type.
 
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