[HondaLover01]

Hello all. I own a 2003 Honda Accord EX Coupe V6. I was wondering if anyone out there had any insight into my problem. I should note that I myself caused the initial problem when I removed the rear passenger brake line to perform some service. Dumb, I know. Anyhow a lot of brake fluid bled out, but I figured I'd solve that problem afterwards by bleeding the brakes, while at the same time adding all new brake fluid. Anyhow, I finished what I needed to do, buttoned things up, refilled the brake fluid reservoir, and reparked the car. At this point I noticed there was no resistance in the brake pedal, and to get it to brake I needed to bottom out the brake pedal. Fine I told myself, no problem. Bleeding the brakes will solve this.

A few days later I used my hand held vacuum unit to bleed the brakes thoroughly, starting with the right rear passenger wheel, to driver side rear wheel, to passenger side front wheel, to driver side front wheel. Once I was done I got in the car, turned her on, depressed the brake, which was still offering no resistance, removed the parking brake, put her in reverse, and she shot off with zero brakes. I was only able to stop the car by turning off the key, and then pulling the parking brake.

After this someone helped me push it back into my parking space, where I tried pumping the brake a few times, which caused it to go from the prior feather light, no resistance to being rock hard, and impossible to compress. I also had the additional problem of the car not starting. Plenty of juice, but it simply won't start now.

I know I screwed up, so no need to let me know that, though if you feel the need to do so feel free. I really would just like to know what I need to do to fix the issue. Is the problem with there being air in the pressure accumulator unit? I read that this unit could cause issues if you lose brake fluid?

I'm pretty sure my bleeding got the air that was in the lines. Is the problem excess pressure in the lines, as maybe I did not thoroughly remove all the pressure before I bled the system? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Miker]

Hello all. I own a 2003 Honda Accord EX Coupe V6. I was wondering if anyone out there had any insight into my problem. I should note that I myself caused the initial problem when I removed the rear passenger brake line to perform some service. Dumb, I know. Anyhow a lot of brake fluid bled out, but I figured I'd solve that problem afterwards by bleeding the brakes, while at the same time adding all new brake fluid. Anyhow, I finished what I needed to do, buttoned things up, refilled the brake fluid reservoir, and reparked the car. At this point I noticed there was no resistance in the brake pedal, and to get it to brake I needed to bottom out the brake pedal. Fine I told myself, no problem. Bleeding the brakes will solve this.

A few days later I used my hand held vacuum unit to bleed the brakes thoroughly, starting with the right rear passenger wheel, to driver side rear wheel, to passenger side front wheel, to driver side front wheel. Once I was done I got in the car, turned her on, depressed the brake, which was still offering no resistance, removed the parking brake, put her in reverse, and she shot off with zero brakes. I was only able to stop the car by turning off the key, and then pulling the parking brake.

After this someone helped me push it back into my parking space, where I tried pumping the brake a few times, which caused it to go from the prior feather light, no resistance to being rock hard, and impossible to compress. I also had the additional problem of the car not starting. Plenty of juice, but it simply won't start now.

I know I screwed up, so no need to let me know that, though if you feel the need to do so feel free. I really would just like to know what I need to do to fix the issue. Is the problem with there being air in the pressure accumulator unit? I read that this unit could cause issues if you lose brake fluid?

I'm pretty sure my bleeding got the air that was in the lines. Is the problem excess pressure in the lines, as maybe I did not thoroughly remove all the pressure before I bled the system? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Did you let the reservoir run dry when you lost the excessive amount of fluid from the brake line initially?

Did you press the brake pedal at any time during the first fluid loss?

You may have done damage to the seals in the master cylinder.

 

[HondaLover01]

Did you let the reservoir run dry when you lost the excessive amount of fluid from the brake line initially?

Did you press the brake pedal at any time during the first fluid loss?

You may have done damage to the seals in the master cylinder.

I did pump the brake quite a bit after the fluid loss, and yes the reservoir may have run dry. The master cylinder is the plastic container which holds the brake fluid yes? That said I think I refilled the brake fluid after I reattached the brake line, and before I pumped the brakes at all.

 

[t-rd]

Are you stepping on the pedal with the engine off? If that's the case, it's supposed to turn rock hard because there is no engine vacuum going into the brake booster. And make sure you have the brake booster vacuum hose connected, that massive vacuum leak would explain the engine not starting.

I cannot begin to think what's damaged when you pumped the pedal when changing the caliper. You don't touch the pedal when the software line is off, that's when it injects a crap load of air.

 

[HondaLover01]

Are you stepping on the pedal with the engine off? If that's the case, it's supposed to turn rock hard because there is no engine vacuum going into the brake booster. And make sure you have the brake booster vacuum hose connected, that massive vacuum leak would explain the engine not starting.

I cannot begin to think what's damaged when you pumped the pedal when changing the caliper. You don't touch the pedal when the software line is off, that's when it injects a crap load of air.

I read you were supposed to pump the brake before bleeding to relieve any pressure. I also did not change any caliper, so not sure where you got that idea. I said I removed the brake line as it was in the way, and brake fluid leaked out. After which I refilled it before starting up the car again.

Could the solution simply be to bleed it again, but this time instead of using my vacuum pump to bleed it I use the brake pumping method? The one where you open the bleeder valve, and pump the brake until you get all the air out. Might that not work? Could it not be that I simply have more air in the system than I thought? There is no vacuum leak. Air simply got introduced, and may still be in the system, though I don't know where.

 

[t-rd]

What did you have to service to remove the brake line?!

You remove the brake line only if you are changing the brake caliper that's it. I got the idea you removed it to change the caliper! Nobody removes the brake line to service anything in that area. You remove the caliper off the rotor and move it out of the way if you are working on the suspension, you don't disconnect the brake line. Removing the brake line means getting air into the system. And you don't pump the brake to "relieve pressure". Once you step down on the pedal, and it retracts while the line is open, air gets sucked in IMMEDIATELY. Pedal down means fluid moves toward the calipers, pedal up means fluid moves back toward the master cylinder.

You have air trapped all over the place including all the way up the ABS modulator. If you ran the master cylinder dry, then you need to bleed the master cylinder first, vacuum pump by the calipers won't bleed the cylinder.

I won't even get into why the engine isn't starting. There are multiple problems caused by misinformation. If you believe you can't do this properly, you should tow it to a shop to get it fixed.

 

[visionguru]

...

Could the solution simply be to bleed it again, but this time instead of using my vacuum pump to bleed it I use t...he brake pumping method? The one where you open the bleeder valve, and pump the brake until you get all the air out. Might that not work? Could it not be that I simply have more air in the system than I thought? There is no vacuum leak. Air simply got introduced, and may still be in the system, though I don't know where.

Obviously, you seem clueless about the brake system. You should NOT open the bleeder valve and pump.

As described in the factory service manuals, use 2 person method: 1 person pump 5 times and hold, then another person open the valve for 5 seconds to let the fluid out, then close the the valve. Repeat.

Methods, such as vacuum pump at bleeder valve or pressurizing reservoir probably good for changing brake fluids, but may not be enough to push the air out, because the vacuum force or pressure is far less than master cylinder pump.

 

[greg1c]

If the brakes were fine before you opened the brake line it will be fine again once the brakes are bled properly. Are the rear brakes, drums or disc?


Let's move on to why the car is not starting.

Does the engine turn over when the key is turned to start?

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[HondaLover01]

Let me add a few things. Not sure if this makes any difference. After bleeding the brakes I got in the car, started it up, and went into reverse without pumping the brakes any while the car was on. While pumping the brakes when the car is off is bad as this removes vacuum and creates pressure, it is my understanding that using the brakes when the car is on creates vacuum. As of turning on the car, and putting in reverse after the bleeding was done the brakes had not been depresssed any, so it could be there was no vacuum, which is why I had no brakes after bleeding. As for why it will not start it is because once I had the vehicle reparked I pumped the brakes until they become hard, which removed all vacuum. I did not know I was not supposed to do this.

I ordered a one man bleeder kit in the mail which allows you to do the 2 man bleeding method alone, as the cannister which has the used brake fluid in it has 1 one way valve which only works to pump fluid into it, and doesn't allow back flow. I will bleed the brakes again alone, and use my cell phone to film the fluid being pumped out while I'm in the vehicle working the brake pedal, so I can be sure all the air is removed upon reviewing the footage. I also bought enough brake fluid to allow very thorough bleeding this time around. Hopefully, once this is done the brake problem will be solved.

What did you have to service to remove the brake line?!

You remove the brake line only if you are changing the brake caliper that's it. I got the idea you removed it to change the caliper! Nobody removes the brake line to service anything in that area. You remove the caliper off the rotor and move it out of the way if you are working on the suspension, you don't disconnect the brake line. Removing the brake line means getting air into the system. And you don't pump the brake to "relieve pressure". Once you step down on the pedal, and it retracts while the line is open, air gets sucked in IMMEDIATELY. Pedal down means fluid moves toward the calipers, pedal up means fluid moves back toward the master cylinder.

You have air trapped all over the place including all the way up the ABS modulator. If you ran the master cylinder dry, then you need to bleed the master cylinder first, vacuum pump by the calipers won't bleed the cylinder.

I won't even get into why the engine isn't starting. There are multiple problems caused by misinformation. If you believe you can't do this properly, you should tow it to a shop to get it fixed.

I'll have to do some research on how to bleed the master cylinder. I'll do that before I rebleed the brakes.

 

[mtts60]

Just note that Honda's order for bleeding the brakes is: front left, front right, rear right, rear left.

 

[HondaLover01]

Just note that Honda's order for bleeding the brakes is: front left, front right, rear right, rear left.

Huh? That doesn't sound right. I thought you started with the brakes which was furthest from the master cylinder, and then worked your way to the closest. Hmm.

 

[mtts60]

^^^ maybe so, but Honda does it the way I stated. At least that's the way it is on my 7th gen and a 2010 CR-V I once had.

 

[greg1c]

Ok, power assist brakes use engine Vacuum to assist pressing the brake pedal by using that vacuum energy to make pressing the brake pedal easier. That vacuum is stored in the vacuum brake booster, basically a big reservoir for Vacuum. That reservoir has a check valve that keeps the vacuum inside the brake booster when the engine is not running and so the brakes have vacuum assist first thing in the morning

If you press the brake pedal when the engine is not running, the vacuum that is stored in the booster is used up. At that point the brakes still work but there is no assist. You have to push the pedal harder for the brakes to stop the car.

Pushing the brake pedal when the engine is not running depletes the vacuum in the brake booster but does nothing to the engine. The engine should start right up regardless of the amount of vacuum in the brake booster.


Bleeding sequence is

1. Left front
2. Right front
3. Right rear
4. Left rear

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[HondaLover01]

Ok, power assist brakes use engine Vacuum to assist pressing the brake pedal by using that vacuum energy to make pressing the brake pedal easier. That vacuum is stored in the vacuum brake booster, basically a big reservoir for Vacuum. That reservoir has a check valve that keeps the vacuum inside the brake booster when the engine is not running and so the brakes have vacuum assist first thing in the morning

If you press the brake pedal when the engine is not running, the vacuum that is stored in the booster is used up. At that point the brakes still work but there is no assist. You have to push the pedal harder for the brakes to stop the car.

Pushing the brake pedal when the engine is not running depletes the vacuum in the brake booster but does nothing to the engine. The engine should start right up regardless of the amount of vacuum in the brake booster.


Bleeding sequence is

1. Left front
2. Right front
3. Right rear
4. Left rear

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Please read what I wrote prior. The brakes are not even working. As for the reason the engine is not starting it only happened after I stopped the car using the parking brake, parked it, and then tried to start it again. Please scroll up and read my original, and all following messages. There's a lot more info there.

 

[greg1c]

I read it and it makes no sense. The brakes and the engine starting have nothing to do with each other.

You have introduced air in to your hydraulic brake system, until you get all the air out of the system, the brakes will never feel right. It is still not clear to me if you have rear disk or drums?

You most likely have multiple issues, but your description of what you did initially also makes no sense. I am starting to think you are a troll.

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One case I could think an issue with the vacuum line to the brake booster could be disconnected or the check valve is broken, that might make it hard to start and run very badly. I guess if the brake booster diaphragm failed to hold vacuum it would be a similar issue. Those parts rarely fail.

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[HondaLover01]

One case I could think an issue with the vacuum line to the brake booster could be disconnected or the check valve is broken, that might make it hard to start and run very badly. I guess if the brake booster diaphragm failed to hold vacuum it would be a similar issue. Those parts rarely fail.

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Hi. Well I figured out why the car would not start. My key fob broke away from the key itself when I frantically tried to shut the car off when it shot into motion without brakes. I did not know at that time that there was a microchip in the fob that worked in tandem with a proximity sensor in the steering column which acts as an anti theft device. Each time I tried to start it thereafter it was simply with the key, and no fob. Without the chip in the correct position in proximity to the sensor in the steering column the car refused to start. I figured this out after noticing the little red flashing light on the dash when the car is off, and it made me think of anti theft. After that it was not hard to figure out. I reconnected the two with super glue, and viola, the car starts fine. After a little pumping of the brakes while the car was on i felt resistance, instead of the straight to the floor action I experienced after I first started the car directly after bleeding the brakes. I did not test the brakes at that time, as I want to wait until nighttime when no one is around, in case the brakes are not fixed. I'll put 4 wheel chocks within a few inches of each wheel just in case, and then put it into reverse to see if it moves again wile I have the brake pedal pressed in. If it does I'll immediately set the parking brake, and bleed the brakes again with the new bleeder kit I ordered. I also have a vacuum bleeder kit, and am wondering if I can bleed the master cylinder without removing it from the car using it. My master cylinder only has 2 houses, and they are very easily accessible. My vacuum bleeder kit has multiple accessories, and the manual says it can be used to bleed master cylinders, but I am wondering if it can be done on the car.

I'll post an update tonight after I test to see if the brakes are working. While I think they might I don't think they will be at full power, and I probably will still have to bleed the master cylinder, and then the brake calipers again. Fingers crossed.

Also, any insight as to whether or not I can bleed the mater cylinder while it is still on the car would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[big_eddy]

. I did not test the brakes at that time, as I want to wait until nighttime when no one is around, in case the brakes are not fixed. I'll put 4 wheel chocks within a few inches of each wheel just in case, and then put it into reverse to see if it moves again wile I have the brake pedal pressed in. .

Do NOT put the car into any gear until you KNOW the brakes are working and you have a proper pedal feel. A cool engine idles at 1250rpm which is about 15mph in reverse!

The very most you should do, WITH THE CAR OFF is put it in neutral and push it by hand.


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[HondaLover01]

Do NOT put the car into any gear until you KNOW the brakes are working and you have a proper pedal feel. A cool engine idles at 1250rpm which is about 15mph in reverse!

The very most you should do, WITH THE CAR OFF is put it in neutral and push it by hand.


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Ok. That said I don't really pay attention to how my brakes feel when driving. I just push them, and they work. How much resistance should I feel? I mean, if the car if off you will most certainly get resistance. The brake pedal will become super hard. I should think it would matter how it feels when the car is on.

 

[t-rd]

You should have about 1 to 1.5" of pedal travel that's it. Anything more than that, there is air in the system or the brake fluid has absorbed enough moisture. You'd be surprised how a small to mid size bubble would cause a huge amount of pedal travel. You can bleed the brake master cylinder on the car with some hoses and fittings. However, I'm not confident you will service and fix it correctly and you'll just flat out endanger yourself and others when you drive the car out. You have to know when to throw in the towel and have someone else fix it for you.

First rule of brake system is, to never open the line unless you are replacing a brake line or brake caliper.

 

[greg1c]

You'd be surprised how a small to mid size bubble would cause a huge amount of pedal travel. You can bleed the brake master cylinder on the car with some hoses and fittings. However, I'm not confident you will service and fix it correctly and you'll just flat out endanger yourself and others when you drive the car out. You have to know when to throw in the towel and have someone else fix it for you.

First rule of brake system is, to never open the line unless you are replacing a brake line or brake caliper.

It would be a good way to spend your money (paying a mechanic), heck I am sure there is a mobile mechanic that will fix it where it sits right now.

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