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forindooruse

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
After 397,000 miles on the original suspension, my car is in desperate need of a refreshing, along with some other preventive maintenance. I tried to hold out for 400k, but the tires have worn so badly that they are no longer safe to roll on and I refuse to put on new tires without doing something about the completely and utterly slacked out suspension. So, it’s getting a total rebuild of just about every suspension part on the car, plus some needed preventive maintenance like a timing chain and valve adjustment and such.

I read a thread here a while back about the relative value of a car and the cost of repairs and maintenance, where the less a car is worth, how much is a reasonable amount to put into repairs? More recently, I saw it stated that old cars weren’t worth putting money into. I’ve thought about this problem for a while, as my car has reached a point where it needs, from a critical standpoint, a number of things done to it, and could use a number of other preventive maintenance performed, but it is on the backside of its useful life and its sentimental value probably outruns its monetary value.

My basic reasoning is this. If I sink $1700.00 into it, that would be about 5 months of payments on a new car. If it extends the life of my car for another few years and 150,000 miles, then its money well spent. As a side note, I still like my car and have sentimental attachment to it. It won’t hurt my feelings one bit to continue to drive it.

On the other hand, there are limits. I can’t afford to put OEM replacement parts on the car at this time, so I’ve shopped heavily in the aftermarket realm. I know many members on this forum live and die by OEM parts and wouldn’t venture elsewhere, but time, money and schedule means I need to do this now, I need to do it all at once, and I have to do so on a budget. Up front, the only OEM thing my car is getting is a timing chain, everything else is aftermarket. I’ll try to express my opinions on the stuff I bought when I’m done, good and bad, and hopefully be able to provide some insight as to what goes well and what doesn’t.

So yesterday we began the rebuild. Here’s the obligatory pile o’ parts picture:

Image


Teardown of the front was relatively painless and yielded a couple of surprises. First, the ball joints were not in as bad a shape as I expected them to be. The uppers were still tight and seemingly fine, the bottoms were not as tight but were not slacked to the point of looseness and rattling that I’ve seen in others. Same story with the tie rod ends. Second, the front bushings of the lower control arms were absolutely shot, with cracks all the way through and chunks missing. I would say these were the worst components on the front suspension in terms of shape, and this was the better of the two.

Image


The CV shafts were also garbage by this point, but I could hear and feel that for a long time and was expected.

Pressing the old wheel bearings out and the new ones in is a time consuming, awkward job. The design of the knuckle makes it hard to fit into a press properly, but otherwise it’s pretty straight forward. We couldn’t use the press with the lower ball joint, since there is no way we could chuck it up in the press properly, so we had to hammer the old ball joints out. We used a ball joint press tool to push in the new ones. The first knuckle took a bit, just cause we were figuring it out as we went, the second went quicker.

I’ve read on several places that the front sway bar bushings are difficult to change, but we managed to get them done without too much trouble. We undid the front bolts of the bracket and pried the bracket up, which allowed just enough room to wiggle the old sway bar bushings out and to fit the new ones, the used pry bar and large channel locks to get the bracket back into place and bolted. I wouldn’t change them regularly this way, but for a one time deal at this mileage, it worked. The old bushings didn’t look horrible, but were definitely worn.

Couple of impressions on the parts. The Mevotech stuff I got with the front end look fine, metal wise, but I wasn’t too impressed with the composition of the ball joint boots. They seemed too stiff and almost kinda brittle, like a lot of flexing would crack them very quickly. We’ll see. The uppers are greaseable, but the bottoms are not, so we were sure to grease them well before putting the new control arms on. The fitment of the control arms was good and they bolted right up. So far, aside from my impressions on the ball joint boots, the aftermarket parts I bought seem to be alright, at least from an installation point of view.

With all the junk out of the way in the wheel well, we thought it would be a good idea to start dealing with the timing chain and valve adjustment, and replacing the motor mounts while we are at it. This is a more annoying job than I expected, as there is little room to work. These are the times when having good tools pay off. That didn’t stop us from having some issues.

The motor has never been opened at all and everything was tightly stuck together. With the high mileage of the car, I was interested to see how much buildup we would find under the valve cover. While there is some gunk on the cover, overall I was very happy with how clean everything looked underneath. The only real gunk was on the valve cover itself.

Image


Image


Couple things we found right away – the motor mounts, if not totally broken, are completely wore out. This is the failed motor mount on the right side of the motor. The front mount was still together, but it was not in good shape.

Image


Second, the VTC solenoid is one of the worst designs in history. Despite our best efforts not to do so, since we’ve seen it before, we still managed to break the thing in half trying to get it out, and we spent a while extracting the broken remaining piece from the head.

Image


At that point, we called it a night.

Hopefully, we can finish up today, and I’ll post an update later.

Here is a list of parts going on the car….

APWI CV shafts
DEA motor and transmission mounts
Mevotech tie rod ends
Mevotech lower ball joints
Mevotech upper and lower control arms
Sensen struts
WJB rear wheel bearings and hubs
Centric front wheel bearings
Beck front sway bar links and bushings
Mevotech rear sway bar links
Beck/Arnley rear sway bar bushings
Westar strut mount hardware front and rear
Beck/Arnley rear arms
Beck/Arnley rear control arms
Beck/Arnley lateral links
Mas forward trailing arms
OEM Timing chain
Four Seasons Fan Motor
MOOG rear upper control arms
Dextero tires
Dorman VTC solenoid
 
Extremely well-written- good luck today. If you need me to jail break in and change anything in your first post later this week, let me know and I'll do that.

We are not OEM snobs. We are learning and evaluating and debating constantly. And we learn from mistakes and experience.

Based on the picture, you have a 4 cylinder. Please click on your UserCP and update your signature to include the basics before member "Drew03Accord" reigns unholy troll posts against you.
 
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Based on my experience with the '04 I have now, I would be very careful about what after-market parts you use.

The aftermarket engine and condenser fans I have still run strong for over one year now. Same goes for door lock actuators to three doors I replaced as well. But I had bad experience with aftermarket ignition coils and wiper motor.

Good luck to you man. That's a bigger undertaking than I would dare do for myself.
 
Good deal. I myself prefer OEM but those will probably get you by for no longer than you want. It may not have the same nice feel as OEM but hopefully everything works out for you!
 
Good deal. I myself prefer OEM but those will probably get you by for no longer than you want. It may not have the same nice feel as OEM but hopefully everything works out for you!
For the cost of a full suspension rebuild using OEM parts for everything listed above, he could basically buy another Accord with half the miles on it.

OEM is absolutely not worth it in this case.

Also, what's with the passive-aggressive tone in your posts?
 
For the cost of a full suspension rebuild using OEM parts for everything listed above, he could basically buy another Accord with half the miles on it.

OEM is absolutely not worth it in this case.

Also, what's with the passive-aggressive tone in your posts?
I'm just cautious of aftermarket parts, especially with a full rebuild. This is because I used aftermarket parts to replace a few front suspension parts on an older Honda I had and I constantly had to go back into the suspension and replace them because they wouldn't last. I had the time and tools, and of course the replacement parts were free under warranty. But the point is they just didn't last and someone like this guy doesn't seem like he has the time to be going back into the suspension to replace little this and that parts.

It's not even a secret on this forum that OEM is pretty much a must for lower ball joints.

I'd probably use aftermarket half shafts myself, but try to use OEM everything else. And, things like the lower control arms could have the bushings pressed out and replaced OEM with reasonable cost so there's that option.

I'd leave the timing chain alone especially if you've kept the oil changed. If you pull the cover and the tensioner looks like it's not fully extended then I'd leave the chain alone.

An OEM valve cover gasket is cheap and WILL keep it from seeping. You'll want to replace the spark plug tube seals, and a cheap seal puller from harbor freight will make that job a breeze.
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Another day is done, and I'll have more written up at some point in the next day or two, and I'll have Mr. Blaine add it to the original post.

I put the OEM disclaimer in the original post trying to head off the never ending debate of OEM versus aftermarket that was bound to occur once members saw the list of parts I'm using. I'm aware of the differences, but tried to explain why I went with aftermarket.

Hopefully I can give some good information about my experience with the cheaper alternatives when it's all done. Good, bad or ugly, whichever way it ends up.

Wow, 400k miles without a valve adjustment?
Yeah. Not too proud of that, really, but getting it done never really rose to priority in the inexhaustible list of stuff I am forever having to get done.

Also, is the transmission original?
Yes, it is the original transmission.

I'd leave the timing chain alone especially if you've kept the oil changed.
I was in, I had the chain, the process is super simple... I'm with you though, in that I don't think the chain needed to be replaced. It was still in good shape and the tensioner wasn't maxed. However, now I don't have to worry about it at all.
 
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Another day is done, and I'll have more written up at some point in the next day or two, and I'll have Mr. Blaine add it to the original post.

I put the OEM disclaimer in the original post trying to head off the never ending debate of OEM versus aftermarket that was bound to occur once members saw the list of parts I'm using. I'm aware of the differences, but tried to explain why I went with aftermarket.

Hopefully I can give some good information about my experience with the cheaper alternatives when it's all done. Good, bad or ugly, whichever way it ends up.



Yeah. Not too proud of that, really, but getting it done never really rose to priority in the inexhaustible list of stuff I am forever having to get done.



Yes, it is the original transmission.



I was in, I had the chain, the process is super simple... I'm with you though, in that I don't think the chain needed to be replaced. It was still in good shape and the tensioner wasn't maxed. However, now I don't have to worry about it at all.
About the chain, if it's in good shape I'd still leave it because the sprockets and chain wear together. Put a new chain on old sprockets and you may be asking for trouble.
 
Haven't there been countless posts/questions/threads about how crappy aftermarket half shafts are?? RUN - Use OEM if you replace those.

Some aren't the best quality, like the autozone ones. But there are companies that make quality but affordable alternatives. Some people have even had luck with the autozone ones, but I'd try raxles or some reputable company.
 
Discussion starter · #17 ·
Update - Finally!

So, since it's been forever since I updated, most of you assumed this project killed me. It didn't, but the next days weren't fun at all and then I got crazy busy. I apologize for just leaving the forum hanging like that.

Also, I would be remiss in saying that I used a Honda manual downloaded from Manuals - Downloads - Hondahookup.com to for much of this work. You have to register, but then you can download the manual. It's extremely useful for torque specs and procedures, even if it is a bit on the conservative side. You don't have to necessarily do all the steps in the manual to get something accomplished, but if you aren't mechanically handy, it gives plenty of step-by-step instructions so you don't mess up. If linking to another forum is bad, please let me know. Not trying to promote another site, just give credit where credit is due.

That first day came to a screeching halt when the VTC solenoid snapped off in the head, and much time was wasted trying to fish the remaining part out. The second day started with a trip to the stealership to purchase a new solenoid and then to button the motor back up. We changed the timing chain with an OEM one, cleaned all the surfaces and reinstalled the covers. Also finally, after 397k miles, finished adjusting the valves. They were definitely on the tight side of things and had to be loosened to get to specs, but that wasn't a horrible procedure.

Next, we tackled the transmission mounts, which were destroyed, as shown here:

Image


Removing this particular mount is not fun. There are bolts on the underside that are difficult to get to, and the easiest thing I found was to remove the bolts on the top and forward sides, then loosen the back underside bolt. Rotate the whole mount upward, pivoting on the last remaing bolt, which then gives you access to that bolt. Reinstall in reverse order. Get the back underside bolt started with the mount pivoted up, then lower the mount towards the front of the car and install the rest of the bolts, then remember to tighten the back one. This is looking down after the new one is installed. It is located under the battery and airbox assemblies which I removed to do this part.

Image


The other two mounts are easily accessed through the wheel well and are are handled fairly easily, so long as everything is loose. A prybar and some fiddling - watching out for your fingers of course - lets you remove and reinstall new mounts there. Once in, tighten all of them and then start putting the airbox and battery back in.

While I had the battery out of the way and plenty of room in the engine compartment, I did remove the fan assembly to replace the dead fan that I had. It required drilling out the factory rivets and then using the supplied bolts to secure the new fan. Which would have been fine, except half the hardware was missing and I had no suitably small replacement bolts. To fix this, I found small bolts I did have, but had to drill out the mounting holes to their size. It worked, but doubled the time required to fix it.

From here, we began reinstalling the struts, CV shafts, and tie rod ends and buttoning up the front end. None of which is terribly hard, but it can be time consuming. The tie rod ends are particularly annoying due to the limited space on the inners and then need to keep them close to the original position.

By this time, the second day is about done. We've done almost everything we needed on the front end, but haven't started with the rear.

Day three was the rear suspension. And it was here that I ran into my own personal Gettysburg. It was a turning point. A defeat.

To make a long story short, I only managed to replace about a third of the ten links and arms. I did get the struts installed, which requires getting behind the backseat on the interior, and I did replace the wheel bearings with new hubs and bearings, so not all was lost. But, the sheer difficulty of trying to remove a number of those links defeated me. They will have to be cut off, I guess. I had run out of time, since I needed to get my car back on the road, and decided that this will have to be another project. I'll probably do it when it warms back up. Disappointed, I started to reassemble the rear in the afternoon, and had it back together by night.

Day two and three were frustrating, as it seemed like things were taking much longer than they should. As I started to run out of time, I stopped taking pictures, so I have none of the rear or the late part of putting things back together. Sorry about that.

Here are my tires at 397k, so you can see the reason I didn't make it to 400k before doing the rebuild. More importantly, you can see the wear pattern for tires that I typically run *over* inflated. The severe wear on the outsides of the tires has to be caused by the suspension being completely wore out.

Image


So, when the new tires were installed, I put the car on the trailer and took it to get aligned. Surprisingly, it wasn't too far out of alignment despite changing everything on the front end. But, a serious problem caused me a couple of days headache.

I got an intermittent no start problem. It did it to me once the night I finished up, but then started right up. Then the alignment place had to jump start it to get it off the rack. Then as I was driving home, it started to die on me, stuttering and sputtering at intervals where the whole car would lose power, lights, gauges, motor, everything.

My first instinct was a bad ground, probably on the passenger side where it is grounded to the body. We check that, it seemed fine, the battery cables were tight, and all seemed well. However, the problem continued. We didn't really figure it out until we realized that so long as the car had a charger on it, the problem would not happen. The hot battery terminal had corrosion under the ring, disrupting contact with the battery. I took a 12 gauge bore brush, locked it in the electric drill, and cleaned all the corrosion out of the ring. Problem solved.

My other problem, post rebuild, was an oil leak from the small cover over the solenoid on the side of the motor. That was a simple matter of pulling the cover off, recleaning the surfaces, adding sufficient RTV and reinstalling. I think I was being a bit too frugal with the RTV the first time and did not get a good seal.

Finally, and probably most annoying, I have a wheel/tire that will not balance out. It has the tiniest of vibration. It helped putting it on the rear, but out of curiosity, I took a set of my friends wheels and put them on, and my car rode fine. No vibration. So I definitely have a tire issue.

The question remains: how does it drive? Well, it drives well. It's nice and tight again, I don't feel the slop it had before. The steering is crisp and responsive. I do have full confidence in it when I drive aggressively now, whereas before I did not, it was that sloppy, and it doesn't chase ruts in the roads like it did before.

The vibrations that the car had previously have been muted. Also, the road noise of the car has dropped significantly. That is almost the most pleasant surprise. The car is noticeably quieter now.

Overall, I would say my experience with the installation and the usage of the aftermarket parts is mixed. I discussed my reservations about the ball joints before, but they've held up just fine so far. I think that had I used OEM parts for everything, I'd have a slightly better experience about the car's ride, handling, noise and vibration... It doesn't feel like a new car, but it does feel good, and the feeling has lasted now for fifteen thousand miles. Current odometer reading is 412k.


To RickBlaine or any moderator, if you feel this update would be better served by merging with the first post, please do so. Once again, I apologize on the long delay on posting this. Any questions about certain things or parts, feel free to PM me.
 
I think you're going about this right. In terms of cost-benefit, that's entirely an individual decision. You like the car, you're DIY, it's a worthy project. Wish you the best!
 
So, since it's been forever since I updated, most of you assumed this project killed me. It didn't, but the next days weren't fun at all and then I got crazy busy. I apologize for just leaving the forum hanging like that.

Also, I would be remiss in saying that I used a Honda manual downloaded from Manuals - Downloads - Hondahookup.com to for much of this work. You have to register, but then you can download the manual. It's extremely useful for torque specs and procedures, even if it is a bit on the conservative side. You don't have to necessarily do all the steps in the manual to get something accomplished, but if you aren't mechanically handy, it gives plenty of step-by-step instructions so you don't mess up. If linking to another forum is bad, please let me know. Not trying to promote another site, just give credit where credit is due.

That first day came to a screeching halt when the VTC solenoid snapped off in the head, and much time was wasted trying to fish the remaining part out. The second day started with a trip to the stealership to purchase a new solenoid and then to button the motor back up. We changed the timing chain with an OEM one, cleaned all the surfaces and reinstalled the covers. Also finally, after 397k miles, finished adjusting the valves. They were definitely on the tight side of things and had to be loosened to get to specs, but that wasn't a horrible procedure.

Next, we tackled the transmission mounts, which were destroyed, as shown here:

Image


Removing this particular mount is not fun. There are bolts on the underside that are difficult to get to, and the easiest thing I found was to remove the bolts on the top and forward sides, then loosen the back underside bolt. Rotate the whole mount upward, pivoting on the last remaing bolt, which then gives you access to that bolt. Reinstall in reverse order. Get the back underside bolt started with the mount pivoted up, then lower the mount towards the front of the car and install the rest of the bolts, then remember to tighten the back one. This is looking down after the new one is installed. It is located under the battery and airbox assemblies which I removed to do this part.

Image


The other two mounts are easily accessed through the wheel well and are are handled fairly easily, so long as everything is loose. A prybar and some fiddling - watching out for your fingers of course - lets you remove and reinstall new mounts there. Once in, tighten all of them and then start putting the airbox and battery back in.

While I had the battery out of the way and plenty of room in the engine compartment, I did remove the fan assembly to replace the dead fan that I had. It required drilling out the factory rivets and then using the supplied bolts to secure the new fan. Which would have been fine, except half the hardware was missing and I had no suitably small replacement bolts. To fix this, I found small bolts I did have, but had to drill out the mounting holes to their size. It worked, but doubled the time required to fix it.

From here, we began reinstalling the struts, CV shafts, and tie rod ends and buttoning up the front end. None of which is terribly hard, but it can be time consuming. The tie rod ends are particularly annoying due to the limited space on the inners and then need to keep them close to the original position.

By this time, the second day is about done. We've done almost everything we needed on the front end, but haven't started with the rear.

Day three was the rear suspension. And it was here that I ran into my own personal Gettysburg. It was a turning point. A defeat.

To make a long story short, I only managed to replace about a third of the ten links and arms. I did get the struts installed, which requires getting behind the backseat on the interior, and I did replace the wheel bearings with new hubs and bearings, so not all was lost. But, the sheer difficulty of trying to remove a number of those links defeated me. They will have to be cut off, I guess. I had run out of time, since I needed to get my car back on the road, and decided that this will have to be another project. I'll probably do it when it warms back up. Disappointed, I started to reassemble the rear in the afternoon, and had it back together by night.

Day two and three were frustrating, as it seemed like things were taking much longer than they should. As I started to run out of time, I stopped taking pictures, so I have none of the rear or the late part of putting things back together. Sorry about that.

Here are my tires at 397k, so you can see the reason I didn't make it to 400k before doing the rebuild. More importantly, you can see the wear pattern for tires that I typically run *over* inflated. The severe wear on the outsides of the tires has to be caused by the suspension being completely wore out.

Image


So, when the new tires were installed, I put the car on the trailer and took it to get aligned. Surprisingly, it wasn't too far out of alignment despite changing everything on the front end. But, a serious problem caused me a couple of days headache.

I got an intermittent no start problem. It did it to me once the night I finished up, but then started right up. Then the alignment place had to jump start it to get it off the rack. Then as I was driving home, it started to die on me, stuttering and sputtering at intervals where the whole car would lose power, lights, gauges, motor, everything.

My first instinct was a bad ground, probably on the passenger side where it is grounded to the body. We check that, it seemed fine, the battery cables were tight, and all seemed well. However, the problem continued. We didn't really figure it out until we realized that so long as the car had a charger on it, the problem would not happen. The hot battery terminal had corrosion under the ring, disrupting contact with the battery. I took a 12 gauge bore brush, locked it in the electric drill, and cleaned all the corrosion out of the ring. Problem solved.

My other problem, post rebuild, was an oil leak from the small cover over the solenoid on the side of the motor. That was a simple matter of pulling the cover off, recleaning the surfaces, adding sufficient RTV and reinstalling. I think I was being a bit too frugal with the RTV the first time and did not get a good seal.

Finally, and probably most annoying, I have a wheel/tire that will not balance out. It has the tiniest of vibration. It helped putting it on the rear, but out of curiosity, I took a set of my friends wheels and put them on, and my car rode fine. No vibration. So I definitely have a tire issue.

The question remains: how does it drive? Well, it drives well. It's nice and tight again, I don't feel the slop it had before. The steering is crisp and responsive. I do have full confidence in it when I drive aggressively now, whereas before I did not, it was that sloppy, and it doesn't chase ruts in the roads like it did before.

The vibrations that the car had previously have been muted. Also, the road noise of the car has dropped significantly. That is almost the most pleasant surprise. The car is noticeably quieter now.

Overall, I would say my experience with the installation and the usage of the aftermarket parts is mixed. I discussed my reservations about the ball joints before, but they've held up just fine so far. I think that had I used OEM parts for everything, I'd have a slightly better experience about the car's ride, handling, noise and vibration... It doesn't feel like a new car, but it does feel good, and the feeling has lasted now for fifteen thousand miles. Current odometer reading is 412k.


To RickBlaine or any moderator, if you feel this update would be better served by merging with the first post, please do so. Once again, I apologize on the long delay on posting this. Any questions about certain things or parts, feel free to PM me.
Put on a v6 strut bar and it will take a lot of slop out of steering
 
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