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cokeefe88

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
TIA for your wisdom.

Purchased 2005 2.4 MT for project car with bad engine (jumped timing). It came with one key. It did run when I got it, with frequent misfires.
Just finished the engine swap and went to start it up. Crank…no start. It DID randomly start and run once for about 2 seconds before stalling, when I had one spark plug out. Diagnosing this showed good fuel, compression, but no spark on any cylinders. No power to ignition coils. I was checking fuses and relays when I read about green key symbol/immobilizer system. I DID have a flashing green key on the dash with key in ON.

So I go to programming mode (key ON, press lock, key off, x4) and cranked it…and it started! Great, problem solved with zero new parts. Let it run for a few minutes, turned off, cleaned garage. Couple hours later I’m ready to run it longer, so I crank…and crank and crank…no start. Once again, no power to ignition coils. This time there is NOT a green key flashing on the dash. For that matter, the green key on start-up showing that the immobilizer system is live is also not showing up.

I tried programming the key a couple more times, no good. Thinking the root problem might be in the key, I notice that the red LED turns on when any button is pressed, but nothing else happens—lock, unlock, panic, trunk; no response. The master lock button in the car does work though.

I checked the fuse for the immobilizer system, it’s good.

may be relevant—car has been sitting 8 months during engine swap. I have no rodents in my garage, so it’s not a new rodent issue.

possibilities I’m contemplating: immobilizer circuit in the car has some intermittent failure. If that’s the case, I would prefer to bypass it entirely at least as a stop-gap.

or, the chip in the key is damaged/dying. Maybe it was good before but didn’t like sitting around for 8 months. I think this is separate from key fob battery, so would maybe mean getting a new key. And paying a mobile car locksmith to set it up.

thoughts? Theories? Other things I should try before getting new key programmed, or bypassing immobilizer system?
 
The immobilizer chip in the key does not need a battery and is not connected to the one in the key. The antenna for the immobilizer is a ring around the key cylinder and it has a range of maybe 3-5 inches. When it transmits, the RFID chip in the key responds to that signal and sends a code back. If the computer says it matches, the engine starts.

do you have a 'bling ring' around the ignition cylinder? that will cause problems like this.

It may be necessary to have a locksmith or a dealer reprogram the key to the computer.
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
No bling ring around ignition cylinder. The shop manual says that if there’s no green key light, and no start, the next step is to check fuse 19 (done), then check a connection on the Immobilizer in the steering column, then check a connection in the ECM. So if there’s not a loose or open wire, I’m looking at replacing Immobilizer or ECM.

There’s a guy on eBay selling a clever solution—used OEM ECM, Immobilizer, ignition cylinder, and key for $250. Seems like a good idea to avoid paying the dealer/locksmith for most of the possible problems.
 
No bling ring around ignition cylinder. The shop manual says that if there’s no green key light, and no start, the next step is to check fuse 19 (done), then check a connection on the Immobilizer in the steering column, then check a connection in the ECM. So if there’s not a loose or open wire, I’m looking at replacing Immobilizer or ECM.

There’s a guy on eBay selling a clever solution—used OEM ECM, Immobilizer, ignition cylinder, and key for $250. Seems like a good idea to avoid paying the dealer/locksmith for most of the possible problems.
I don't know if this would help, was in the 10 gen. forum. The instructions seemed maybe to apply to earlier years too (?). - http://www.urvi.net/forumfiles/SN/A22120A.PDF
 
The immobilizer chip or the receiver can just die, one of my friends had their CRV intermittently refuse to start because the immobilizer chip was going bad. If I recall correctly the dealer will charge $60-$100 to replace it, much cheaper and easier than a new ECU. I highly doubt it's an ECU issue.
 
Check the main ground cables on the passenger side near the motor mount and the drivers side near the battery. Sounds dumb, but my accord randomly wouldn't start, and acted like it had a dead battery. Replaced the cables, cleaned the terminals and haven't had an issue since. Also if its slower to crank then normal, or other electronics act up like the radio, this may be an issue. Double check that your ECU harness is fully seated, and that you actually have fuel in the tank. Yes, again its dumb, but it happens more then you think.....totally not speaking from experience.... (my brother and his cobalt lmao, sent me down a 3 hour diag rabbit hole)
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
Hey, updating here...I hate how many threads on this (and other) forums never have final solutions posted by OP. Not there yet, but whenever the time comes, I'll post.

To nick_leroux: good suggestion on the grounds. Those, and main battery cables, were the first things I checked when I initially realized it was an electrical issue. I replaced the two ground straps. And yes, the tank is more than half full. Through all this, I have a new battery that I'm usually leaving plugged into my smart charger.

So I bought that used OEM immobilizer+ECM+ignition cylinder+key set from ebay. Tried switching everything out, in various combinations; no luck and no change worth mentioning.

At that point I called an independent locksmith with access to HDS (honda diagnostic system). He spent about 90 minutes with me and...we pretty much got nowhere, because his scan tool couldn't connect to the car. I hadn't been able to get a scan tool connection either, but I was trying to ignore that and more focused on getting the car running. If reprogramming is required, though, getting scan tool connections to work becomes the priority, so now I'm focusing on that. So there are several backdoor ways to get codes. Jumping OBD pins 4 & 9 gives me ABS flash code 61, and SRS flash codes 87, 83, and 61.

Jumping the test pins above the under-dash relays gives me B1168, B1169, and B1178 on the odo display. Consistently, when I clear those, they immediately come back. They don't really even register as cleared, they just stay there all the time. Sometimes I get a few other codes, related to control gauge module not communicating with this or that other module, but the other codes will clear.

The dashboard display thing with tach, odo, etc is called the "Control Gauge Module". B1168, B1169, and B1178 troubleshooting in the service manual had me pull out the control gauge module and check a few fuses and wires (all good), and then suggests replacing the module. So I got my replacement one in the mail today. Plug it in and...nothing has changed. Same codes. Swap out ECM (I haven't yet returned the good one I bought) and again, no changes to the codes, lights, or the crank/no-start.

There is at least one more test available without scan tool communication; the gauge self test. That showed me "Error 1" on both the old and new gauge control modules, with both old and new ECMs installed. Error 1 means
"If the word ''Error 1'' is indicated, there is a malfunction in the communication line between the gauge control module and the fast-controller area network (F-CAN). Check for DTCs in the ECM/PCM. If no DTCs are found, go to B-CAN System Diagnosis Test Mode A."

Unfortunately I can't do either of those things properly without a scan tool connection. I'm not aware of any way to get more diagnostic info from here.

Couple more things to note: there was an aftermarket radio installed. Aftermarket electronics can cause issues with the immobilizer, so I pulled that out and unplugged it. It looked like an amateur DIY install, with wires crimped together and one hanging loose. I also noticed a parasitic 0.10 amp battery drain on the radio circuit (even with the new radio disconnected) so I'm keeping the radio fuse out for now. I'm wondering if the radio install involved messing up other wires under the dash, causing all of these problems.


I'm pretty close to renting a tow dolly, hauling it into the dealership, and bending over. Waiting for a brain wave, or any insights you all might have, before I give up on the DIY!
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
During this ordeal, I have purchased a new-to-me instrument cluster ("Control Gauge Module") and swapped it out. That shows the same error codes as my original cluster. Error 1 in the gauge self-test, and B1168, B1169, and B1178 on the odo display when I short the two prongs on the b-can test connector. At this point I can swap the two clusters back and forth and get mostly the same error codes. Always those three; sometimes there are extras.

My original cluster fails the self-test—the speedo and temp gauge don't move in the self-test, so it seems that whatever else is wrong, I do in fact need the new cluster.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Sigh. Here we go with the final update. I rented a U-Haul tow dolly last Tuesday and towed it into the dealership. Loading and unloading was an adventure. They had it for a week; I was relieved that I didn’t get the call 30 mins after dropping it off. Supposedly one night their senior tech took the service manuals home to study wiring diagrams.

Finally got the call Tuesday and picked it up yesterday. It was…of course…a loose ground connection. The ECU to engine ground. This is a bolt on top of the intake manifold, grounding two wires that come from the fuel injector harness. G101 on wiring diagrams.

It irritates me that the service manual doesn’t suggest checking that ground point for any of the issues that it causes: B1178 etc, Error 1 on cluster self-test, crank/no start, scan tools won’t connect.

Still I feel dumb because…”what was the last thing you touched, dummy??” Of course I should have more carefully checked all the engine wires after doing an engine swap. And it really seemed like a ground issue with a whole basket of somewhat related electrical issues. I just didn’t check grounds beyond the two main engine/trans to frame ground wires.

On the plus side, the engine, clutch, and trans felt great driving home. I think I’ll be keeping this one for a long time. I got it for $600 with the bad engine and even with this whole unnecessary side quest I’ve made out fine.
 
Sigh. Here we go with the final update. I rented a U-Haul tow dolly last Tuesday and towed it into the dealership. Loading and unloading was an adventure. They had it for a week; I was relieved that I didn’t get the call 30 mins after dropping it off. Supposedly one night their senior tech took the service manuals home to study wiring diagrams.

Finally got the call Tuesday and picked it up yesterday. It was…of course…a loose ground connection. The ECU to engine ground. This is a bolt on top of the intake manifold, grounding two wires that come from the fuel injector harness. G101 on wiring diagrams.

It irritates me that the service manual doesn’t suggest checking that ground point for any of the issues that it causes: B1178 etc, Error 1 on cluster self-test, crank/no start, scan tools won’t connect.

Still I feel dumb because…”what was the last thing you touched, dummy??” Of course I should have more carefully checked all the engine wires after doing an engine swap. And it really seemed like a ground issue with a whole basket of somewhat related electrical issues. I just didn’t check grounds beyond the two main engine/trans to frame ground wires.

On the plus side, the engine, clutch, and trans felt great driving home. I think I’ll be keeping this one for a long time. I got it for $600 with the bad engine and even with this whole unnecessary side quest I’ve made out fine.
I appropriate you keeping us updated with ur crazy journey. iam having the same problem. I upgraded my clutch n after hooking everything up. my 2007 honda civic si was only cracking then. my car did start but stalled out. I gave up went into the house the next day after work we trying again den we we're able to get the car started. but after 2 days my car didn't start back up my green key light doesn't light up, my fuel pump doesn't turn on and there's no spark. my friends strongly feels it a ground issue. I did redo the grounds. I just brought an ECU, immobilizer and key from ebay. lol hoping and🙏🏻 it will fix my problem. when I came across ur post I wanted to kick myself in the ***. but now iam feeling hopeful. I did call my dealership and they was just so negative abt my situation is didn't book any appt. I called a locksmith, at first the guy was like oh yeah it sounds like it just have to be reprogram back together. for the service call it was $175 and to recut a key it's $310 but when he found out he couldn't communicate with my ecu he was no help. I did tell him it's a crank no start, when we did put the battery back n tried to start the car. the car did start n would stalled out, now the car is a crank no start, no fuel pump, no spark and when I did hook up a scanner i could read n get feedback from all the modules accept. the engine. the engine would say no communication. I was thinking of pulling da motor n trans n putting it into my 06 rsx lol n just rebuild my k20z1. but I can't let go of my 07 civic si. I just wanted to the to say thank u cokeefe88.🖤
 
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