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Amkor

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So we have the car (HAH Sport) 9 months now, and at around 6,000 miles the system indicated time for our first oil change, which to me seemed a bit early...
I wonder when did you guys here get the system to tell them it's time for the first oil change... Is the computer considering time and mileage, or also the kind/style of driving? What goes into the equation?
 
So we have the car (HAH Sport) 9 months now, and at around 6,000 miles the system indicated time for our first oil change, which to me seemed a bit early...
I wonder when did you guys here get the system to tell them it's time for the first oil change... Is the computer considering time and mileage, or also the kind/style of driving? What goes into the equation?

It’s an algorithm that includes the things you mentioned along with how many start cycles the engine has gone through, I believe. I had only 1200 miles when I first changed mine, but it was 12 months since I bought the car. The oil life monitor showed 15%.

I start the car up periodically to keep the battery charged. So, I think on mine time was more of a determining factor than the mileage which is relatively low for an oil change. With my other car, it’s on a battery tender and after a year, the oil life monitor still shows 90% when I change it.
 
You only average 100 miles a month. Wow, your car is barely broken in.
 
Nothing's wrong. It's a computer program that considers many things when determining when to change the oil. Idle time, run time, coolant temp and a few others. Your driving style/location (city vs. highway) does factor in as well.
 
My EX-L got 4300 miles after 4 months and MM says 70%. I wonder when it will say 15%.
Probably closer to 10,000 miles if I had to guess. If you want the Dealer to do the oil change, the MM has to be at 15% or less.

I belong to several car clubs for my 1970 Buick GS455 Stage1. Among the members are several mechanics that work on late model cars. The consensus among them is to never go beyond 5,000 miles/50% MM. I trust these guys because I have known them for 25 years, and they operate world class repair shops. After changing my own oil in April, and seeing how easy it is on the HAH, I have decided to follow their advice. I realize that opinions and experiences will vary on this topic.
 
Probably closer to 10,000 miles if I had to guess. If you want the Dealer to do the oil change, the MM has to be at 15% or less.

I belong to several car clubs for my 1970 Buick GS455 Stage1. Among the members are several mechanics that work on late model cars. The consensus among them is to never go beyond 5,000 miles/50% MM. I trust these guys because I have known them for 25 years, and they operate world class repair shops. After changing my own oil in April, and seeing how easy it is on the HAH, I have decided to follow their advice. I realize that opinions and experiences will vary on this topic.
I think 50% is a little too soon. They must work at shops that like to make money in changing people’s oil prematurely. I can see maybe 30% or even 25%, but 50% on the maintenance minder is changing it way too early IMO. I can agree with the 5k mile interval, though. However, with modern day full synthetics, you can probably go more than that without any problems.

I did mine at 1200 because I wanted to get the factory oil out of there. Some say it’s not really necessary because there is no engine break-in period like in the old days, but I did it anyway even if the time wasn’t considered. I will follow the 5k mile interval (since it’s turbo) or every 12 months (whichever comes first) from now on.
 
I think 50% is a little too soon. They must work at shops that like to make money in changing people’s oil prematurely. I can see maybe 30% or even 25%, but 50% on the maintenance minder is changing it way too early IMO. I can agree with the 5k mile interval, though. However, with modern day full synthetics, you can probably go more than that without any problems.
I understand Mike. Here is a post on my Buick board from one of those mechanics, for whatever it's worth.


LARRY70GS said:

Honda actually pays for oil changes in the first two years of ownership. The maintenance minder has to be down to 15% or less. I don't trust them to change my oil, that's the bottom line. I'd rather do it myself and know it is done right. I used the Honda filter, and mobil1 0W/20.
Larry, I tell my customers for GM and Honda, if you are using the minder, 50% is as far as I recommend going. We have seen very extensive engine damage on the back side of the vehicle’s life when the minder is followed. A lot depends on climate and driving habits. But it’s better to be safe than sorry. 50% on both GM and Honda is around 6000 miles. Many Toyota’s don't make it until 6000 miles on their minder in the winter up here. I like that. And if Fram makes Honda’s oil filters, go with OEM Honda. Just because they make them for Honda you can’t assume they are made the same as their own offering. The 7356 Napa Gold filter for Honda has been a particularly bad filter since the change. We’ve gone to OEM Honda, OEM Subaru and OEM Toyota for those filters. The rest are genuine WIX/Mann-Hummel. No more NAPA.

Bob
 
I understand Mike. Here is a post on my Buick board from one of those mechanics, for whatever it's worth.
It’s interesting he doesn’t recommend Fram, even the Fram Ultra? There was long thread on here about oil filters and everybody was going nuts about how the Fram Ultra was so much better than the stock Honda filter.

For me, I‘m using the Honda filter because I don’t want to deviate from OEM while still under warranty. Maybe it matters, maybe it doesn’t, but that‘s the way I’m doing it until the warranty is up. In fact, I typically use OEM filters on my vehicles even when the warranty is long gone. I did that on my old 22R Toyota PU (Toyota oil filters only) and it was still running strong when I sold it many years ago with 400k plus original miles on it.
 
"We have seen very extensive engine damage on the back side of the vehicle’s life when the minder is followed."

I wonder what he's talking about here, and how it's related to oil change intervals.

I do 7,500-mile OCIs on my Subarus and Mazda, and the UOA always come back fine (good for further use).

I didn't bother with an UOA on the HAH's first change (at 10K), but I'd be reallllly surprised if an analysis had come back saying that the oil wasn't good for further use.

Conjecture: 3,000- or 5,000-mile OCIs made sense 30-40 years ago, using dino oil and given the 1980s engine technology .
Given synthetic oil and modern metallurgy and manufacturing tolerances and engine management, I don't doubt that 10,000 miles or more is a non-issue.
 
Let me posts his comments in their entirety,
  • Bob Ortolani

    • Nov 12, 2021
    • 7 min read


Oil Change 101

Something as simple and routine as an oil change has suddenly become more complex and confusing. There are many opinions on this subject and we will offer ours. The two most confusing aspects of oil changes are the interval and what type of oil to use.


Undoubtedly, engine and engine oil technology has come a long way in a short period of time. Engine manufacturers have been able to design and mass produce engines today with materials and manufacturing processes that Henry Ford couldn’t have imagined in his wildest dreams! Engines certainly don’t “wear out” like they used to, and are superior in many ways to those of just a couple of decades ago. Credit goes to the engineers who design the engines and to the engineers who are continually improving engine oil. However, with changing technology, unforeseen issues always seem to arise.


With ever-increasing demand for greater fuel efficiency and lowering of emissions, engine manufacturers are adding such things as Variable Valve Timing (VVT) technology and Cylinder Deactivation technology. In short, VVT allows the engine’s computer to alter camshaft timing (which has been fixed since the beginning of time) for improved performance, reduced emissions and improved fuel economy. Cylinder Deactivation allows the engine’s computer to selectively and seamlessly (well, almost) deactivate cylinders from firing under certain conditions, which reduces emissions and improves fuel economy. Both of these new technologies rely heavily on clean oil and specific pressure.


With electronic fuel injection replacing carburetors and becoming much more precise since its wide use began in the 1980’s, engine oil stays much cleaner, which in turn helps engines last longer. Credit also the gasoline manufacturers by designing additive packages that help keep fuel injectors working properly. Most people don’t know that the same detergent that was once only available in “hi test” fuel is now available in all fuel grades. Gone are the days where you would need to run a tank of “hi test”once in a while to clean your engine out.


With a little bit of history known, the old tried and true 3 month or 3,000 mile oil change has come under fire recently. Many manufacturers believe that their engines can go much longer between oil changes, some almost 15,000 miles (yikes!). There are some vehicle manufacturers that have “oil life monitors” built into their vehicle’s electronics. No, there isn’t a little chemistry lab in the oil pan analyzing the engine oil, but rather a complex computer algorithm which calculates (supposedly) when you need to change your oil. This calculation is based on many factors, including how you drive your car, what the temperature is outside, how long you drive your car, your speed, how much time is spent idling, etc.


One of the first extended oil change interval conceived was done by Mobil 1 oil back in the 70’s. They claimed that their new synthetic oil would last 25,000 miles (what could go wrong there??) and they backed that up with a warranty on your engine. Not surprisingly it didn’t take Mobil 1 long to quickly change their policy…


Most new car manufacturers have some sort of extended oil change interval. What many people don’t realize is that it is very vague and has gray areas. While many people mistaken believe they are using their vehicle under “normal” conditions, they are really using their vehicle under “severe” conditions as defined by the manufacturer. For example, some manufacturers might state that under normal usage the engine oil should be changed at 6,000 miles and under severe usage that the oil should be changed at 3,000 miles. The definitions of “normal” and “severe” aren’t able to be clearly defined, and many times the vehicle is operated under BOTH conditions! There is no doubt, however, that cold weather and short trips are the worst scenario for engine oil. Neither the engine nor the oil ever gets hot enough to keep moisture out. Likewise, extremely hot temperatures in the summer causes engine and oil temperatures to spike, which breaks down oil quicker.


So then the obvious question is why do manufacturers recommend extending the oil changes to 5,000, 10,000 or even 15,000 miles? Several reasons come to mind. Without getting into too much political banter, auto manufacturers receive tax credits for “long life” or “extended maintenance items”, for the obvious reason of less pollution created. Gone are the days when belts, hoses, antifreeze, spark plugs, transmission fluid, some filters, etc needed to be changed every 30,000 miles. Manufacturing of millions of gallons of antifreeze, for example, creates a lot of pollution. Technology has provided the solution in these cases. This makes sense, but auto manufacturers have gambled a bit on oil change intervals as well as some other “maintenance-free” items in my opinion. Another reason for advocating extended oil change intervals is to keep the total cost of vehicle ownership down for advertising purposes. Marketing certainly plays a big role here although some people wished that they had their oil changed more often when faced with a major, preventable engine repair. Under certain conditions extending oil change intervals will work out just fine but many people’s driving habits here in Central NY don’t fall under those conditions.


As I mentioned earlier, both engine technology and oil technology has advanced greatly. Part of the new engine technology makes engine oil changes more critical because of the very small passageways, oil screens, oil-dependent actuators, etc, that rely on clean oil and proper oil pressure to operate correctly. Sludge from infrequent oil changes can and will result in costly repairs, far greater than skipping a few oil changes will make up for! In some cases, your ”check engine” light will illuminate because of improper oil viscosity or “worn out oil”, causing reduced performance and increased fuel consumption and increased emissions. In certain cases, your vehicle can fail NY State’s yearly emissions test because of too infrequent of oil changes.





For the vehicles that have oil life monitors, these monitors have several shortcomings. The politics behind them and the lack of accuracy comes to mind. GM had a situation on their 3.6L engines that required the oil life monitor to be reprogrammed to significantly lower the mileage that the oil is supposed to be changed at. The reason was simple – severe engine damage was occurring as a direct result of extended oil changes! This has affected millions of vehicles. Our recommendation and the recommendations of many shop owners across the country is that the oil should be changed at the 50% mark on vehicles with oil life monitors (in most cases) to “play it safe”. With the price of new cars or expensive engine work, it doesn’t make sense to gamble. I will be happy to give my opinion on what I think your oil change interval should be, drawing off of a lifetime of experience of being directly in the auto repair industry for nearly 30 years. It’s kind of ironic that my recommendation will almost always be less than what the manufacturer recommends, since we make no money on oil changes but we do on major engine repairs!


Two other items that are noteworthy with extended oil change intervals are oil consumption and the rest of the vehicle. First, all engines consume a small amount of oil as part of normal operation. An unintended consequence of extended oil change intervals is that oil is burned and not being replaced, leaving the remaining oil to be overworked resulting in premature oil breakdown and sludge build-up. Many Volkswagen 4-cylinder, 4-quart oil capacity engines come to mind here. If the oil change interval is 10,000+ miles according to Volkswagen, and the normal oil consumption is 1 quart per 5,000 miles for example (what, German cars burn oil??), that engine will have about 2 quarts of sludgy oil left at the normal oil change interval. How long can an engine be expected to survive under these conditions? Clearly checking and adding oil periodically would alleviate low oil concerns, but in reality checking one’s oil is a practice abandoned years ago for the most part. The fact is VERY few people ever open their hood anymore to check anything except the windshield washer fluid. Second, the rest of the car usually gets neglected along with the oil level. Keeping tires at proper pressures and rotated, cleaning battery terminals, topping off fluids, lubricating door hinges, hood hinges and latches, and looking for small problems before they become large ones etc, all go hand-in-hand with a complete oil change here at B&H. Our philosophy has always been to error on the side of caution when it comes to oil change intervals. Automobiles and automobile engine repairs have both become very complex and expensive, but our clients who adhere to our philosophy of good old-fashioned service typically enjoy lower overall maintenance and repair bills.


Almost as confusing as when to change your oil is the type of oil to use. There are a wide variety of oil viscosities and types recommend by auto manufacturers now, whereas before the standard 10w-30 was used in about 95% of all applications. Also the wide use of synthetic oils by the manufacturers adds to the confusion. Each manufacturer has specific oil type and viscosity recommendations for their vehicles. We have this information and our position is to adhere to the recommendations of oil type and viscosity set forth by the manufacturers for the same reasons as we do our service interval – the engines are far too complex and costly to be gambling with! We current stock 13 different engine oils in house, which meets the needs of 99% of our clients. There are varying quality levels of oil engine oils too, whether they are conventional, semi-synthetic or full synthetic. We also use only brand-name, high quality oil in your vehicle, typically Mobil and Valvoline. Because of varying degrees of quality and loose regulations, semi-synthetic or full synthetic oils advertised at extremely low prices generally aren’t anywhere near the quality of their premium counterparts, so buyer beware!


Finally, we recycle the used oil generated from oil changes ever since our first oil change. Used oil goes to a recycling facility for a new life, instead of being burned in a waste-oil heating system. Once waste oil is burned, it is gone forever and it takes approximately 7 times the energy to produce one barrel of new oil than it does to recycle and repurpose one barrel of used oil. In our opinion and that of many environmentally-conscious people, burning waste oil is bad for the environment and is best left for large recycling centers to handle. Burning waste oil for heat is a practice from years ago by auto repair shops to try to cut heating costs. Many older auto repair shops are poorly insulated and would cost a fortune to heat by other means and “back in the day”, oil was cheap and there wasn’t a large market for recycling used oil. Things have changed rapidly, and California and New York City have banned waste oil burning for obvious environmental reasons.


If you ever have any questions about oil changes, please stop in, call or email us. We would be happy to answer them!
 
Instead of believing a lot of internet opinion, the best way is oil analysis. Let science decide, not wife's tales.
Not wife's tales, these are guys who operate repair shops. They are club members, and I talk to them on and offline all the time. They are excellent mechanics, and I respect their opinion. You could argue they have a financial interest behind their opinions, but I have always worked on my own car, and they know that.

As far as oil analysis and science go, did you watch the video? That's Lake Speed Jr. The guys a lubrication expert and well respected in his field.

 
Small displacement turbo's like the 1.5t 3,500 or 6 months especially if there is a lot of short driving time primary in winter months.
Based on what? A gut feeling?

Let's see some data, please...


Instead of believing a lot of internet opinion, the best way is oil analysis. Let science decide, not wife's tales.
Amen to this...


Not wife's tales, these are guys who operate repair shops.
That doesn't mean that they aren't superstitious...

Even B&H admits that he's just "playing it safe," and there's no real data provided, and he talks about "major engine repairs," but it's not at all clear that those are because the oil was old.
 
All of that text, but it’s still basically his OPINION. So, he doesn’t trust the maintenance minder and suggests changing the oil when it reaches no less than 50%. The maintenance minder takes in account many things like how many miles driven, how long since the last oil change, how many cold/hot starts and etc, etc. I would trust the MM more so than a mechanic ranting about how you should change the oil more often to increase shop profits.

If you change the oil at 50%, the only thing you will be achieving is emptying your wallet a lot faster than expected. You could argue about the 15% limit Honda recommends, but changing it at 50% sounds way too early on a modern car running full synthetic.

He mentions the GM 3.6L, but he doesn’t go into any real detail on why following the MM on those particular engines could be risky. The 3.6L had direct injection which was prone to forming hard crystalline carbon deposits on the back of the intake valves. Since fuel is injected directly into the cylinder, it doesn’t get a chance to wash away the hard carbon deposits that typically form on the back of the intake valves like port injection. Yes, most engines today have direct injection or some variation of port injection and direct injection.

The LLT came with a too small PCV breather valve orfice which restricted crankcase ventilation. When the LFX came out, GM had remedied that problem by using a larger breather valve orfice for the PCV system. The LGX improved upon it even further by eliminating the “positive function” of the PCV system. The valve coking is about half as bad on the LGX at the same mileage compared to the LLT/LFX.

The best mod for the 3.6 is a good catch can setup that can condense and store the oil mist vapors before they go back through the upper intake system. Changing to a higher viscosity oil like 5W50 helps mitigate fuel dilution by protecting the bearing surfaces and timing chain components from prematurely wearing out. The recommended 5W30 would dilute down to unsafe levels in a short of period of time. In a few hundred miles according to some sources I’ve read.

I think that’s where his opinion of changing the oil more often than the MM suggests comes from. Keep in mind, not all D.I. engines are the same and they have made significant improvements in direct injection PCV systems since then. If you use a higher viscosity oil in the LLT/LFX, you can then follow a more normalized oil change interval based on the maintenance minder.

The only way to determine when you should change the oil is by performing an oil analysis. There are many places a DIY person can send their oil samples, like Blackstone, to find this out. Otherwise, you’re just guessing on how often it should be changed. On mine, (even though it’s turbo) I’m going with the 5k mile interval. It’s probably a little too soon or maybe too late, but that’s okay. Since I don’t accumulate enough miles to go by miles driven, I have to follow the time based interval which is 1 year. I think even that may be too conservative, but that’s what Honda recommends under warranty.
 
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