[ksills]

:rant:

1. Uses corn so grain prices rise.
2. Food cost more because feed for livestock cost more
3. Ethanol corosive to engine and rubber.
4. Gas mileage decrease of 2-4 mpg

 

[NightHawk4]

Reasons to use? :biggrin:

 

[stevencrosbie]

I don't like ethanol...but...

1. Causes food prices to go up. Although sucks for us, I'm glad the other countries can feel this pain. Maybe they will actually help instead of just pressuring for free stuff from the U.S.

2. Corn profits stay in America. I'm glad some of this money is going it our tax system/farmers pockets instead of countires that don't like us.

I don't like ethanol, but I do like what it is doing for the midwest. Farmers are now keeping some of this wealth instead of it just leaving this country.

 

[NightHawk4]

I think gas stations here are using up to 15% or more ethanol. It really is making my mileage go downhill.


Maybe conspiracy - they know that it makes mileage worse so you have to come back buy more often. A little way for them to make an extra few% profit.

 

[ksills]

It certainley is NOT helping our current fuel problems and is actually adding to the cost. Being a city boy I did not think about the farmers plight, however, the negative impact on the envireonment and the associated cost burden to be borne by all would suggest that there just might be a better way to help the farmers especialy since a lot of farmers are sending the milk cows to slaghter because they can't afford to feed them. No all things being equal I can't think of a really good reason to support ethanol production:thumbsdow

 

[cforez]

Food for fuel is just a really bad idea, IMHO. I can already taste the decrease in the quality of beef nowadays. But more importantly, corn to ethanol production is really taxing our water supplies. In the long term, clean water will be much more valuable than oil. You can always find a way to get around, but if you have no water, you have no civilization.

Colorado and Kansas feud over the Ogallala Aquifer.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/114364

 

[NightHawk4]

A pretty wise old guy told me one time that one day the world will be fighting over fresh water. Oil will be insignificant compared to that.


It was one of those things when you're 16 and you're like.....this guy has got to be crazy. Now, I can somewhat see that happening.

 

[sjlee]

A pretty wise old guy told me one time that one day the world will be fighting over fresh water. Oil will be insignificant compared to that.


It was one of those things when you're 16 and you're like.....this guy has got to be crazy. Now, I can somewhat see that happening.

Interesting, but it still seems to be far-fetched considering all the technology that can be used to filter/purify water to make it potable.

 

[sjlee]

One actual benefit of using fuel with ethanol is that people don't have to worry about adding Heet or other fuel additives used to prevent fuel lines from freezing.

 

[NightHawk4]

Interesting, but it still seems to be far-fetched considering all the technology that can be used to filter/purify water to make it potable.

I didn't say that it would happen. But, that would be something the world would go to war over years down the road. :thmsup: There are machines that suck the humidity out the air for potable water. It was a good topic in philosophy class.

 

[sjlee]

There are machines that suck the humidity out the air for potable water. It was a good topic in philosophy class.

Aren't they called "moisture vaporators"? I think they were widely used on Tatooine. :lmao:

 

[NightHawk4]

:wave: The machinchines that suck the humidity out of the air do exist.

The news made a big deal about it, and they were demonstrating those machines after Katrina happened. Because hurricanes happen down here and water is hard to come by when disaster strikes.

 

[reframmellator]

2. Corn profits stay in America. I'm glad some of this money is going it our tax system/farmers pockets instead of countires that don't like us.

I usually find myself agreeing with stevencrosbie but not in this case. Ethanol for fuel is being subsidized massively by the federal government. Just look at any of the coverage of the Iowa caucuses and you'll see that virtually any candidate of note went out of his/her way to praise government subsidies for corn based ethanol.

The highest and best use of corn based ethanol is as bourbon.

As a fuel, it takes more energy to produce the ethanol from corn than we get from the ethanol. The article is old and the prices low by today's standards, but this guy had it right way back in 2001.

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/aug01/corn-basedethanol.hrs.html

And the massive amounts of water are required not just to grow the corn, but also for the fermentation and isolation of the ethanol.

And as far as dollars staying in America, consider that the US corporate tax structure, which I think is the second highest in the industrialized world, drives far more dollars offshore, never to return, than the redistribution of MY tax dollars to a bunch of farmers. I'm all for American agriculture - my dad grew up on a family farm - but gasohol from corn is not a winner and never will be without the dual props of obscene subsidies and tariffs on far more cost effective Brazilian ethanol derived from cane sugar,

It all comes down to three generalized rules of economics:

If you tax something, you get less of it.
If you subsidize something, you get more of it.
If you want to allocate resources optimally (from an economic efficiency POV), let the markets work.

 

[sjlee]

:wave: The machinchines that suck the humidity out of the air do exist.

The news made a big deal about it, and they were demonstrating those machines after Katrina happened. Because hurricanes happen down here and water is hard to come by when disaster strikes.

I'm not doubting you... it's just that Luke complaining to his uncle about checking the moisture vaporators was the first thing that I thought of when I read your post. :nuts:

 

[RinconVTR]

A pretty wise old guy told me one time that one day the world will be fighting over fresh water. Oil will be insignificant compared to that.


It was one of those things when you're 16 and you're like.....this guy has got to be crazy. Now, I can somewhat see that happening.

10 years ago that might be true. Today we have WATER DESALINATION technolgy which has become productively cheap and thus clean water can be plentiful anywhere in the world is needed for a small price.

Regarding ethanol, there is more proof that corn prices have NOT gone up due to ethanol. Recall most area's have been using it since the early 90's? And prices didnt go up for 10 years. Today, they have sky rocketed...but have you noticed all other prices sky rocketing along with it??? Fuel prices are the biggest culpret for high prices, along with inflation.

Its not ethanol raiseing your food bill.

 

[RinconVTR]

Aren't they called "moisture vaporators"? I think they were widely used on Tatooine. :lmao:

They're basically dehumidifers!!! The same technology you find running in your basement. And its not potable water they produce, well not exactly. Dehumidifers byproduct is Distilled water and is NOT for drinking unless treated (minerals, floride and such added back in). That may be why the machines mentioned above have a different name to them.

 

[Osiris_x11]

Fuel prices are the biggest culpret for high prices, along with inflation.

Well said, along w/ the weakening U.S. dollar relative to other widely held/traded Int'l currencies.

 

[turBeau]

How many of you feel that the 10-15% of ethanol added by volume actually decreases the octane level? Think your really getting 87 octane and not 86 or lower?

Reason I ask is b/c I can't put 87 in my engine w/o it pinging when acclerating. On 89 it runs perfect w/o hesitation. Trust me, I'd love to fill up with 87 if I could.

 

[JBrian]

How many of you feel that the 10-15% of ethanol added by volume actually decreases the octane level? Think your really getting 87 octane and not 86 or lower?

Ethanol should INCREASE the Octane rating of straight regular grade fuel. E85 has an Octane rating of 100! That is one of the positive points of ethanol. However, there are many more negative points!

 

[turBeau]

I know it has a higher octane level, but it has a different molecular structure than of gas. You need bigger injectors to run E85, so I'm wondering if all of it is getting burned hence the pinging I hear w/ 87.